SolidBladez
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On topic:
I've replaced the majority of my incandescent bulbs with CFLs. I wish stores would carry more cold white or pure white CFLs. I'm tired of the warm white variants.
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Rebates To Cut Price of $60 LED Bulb
- Thread starter HardOCP News
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On topic:
I've replaced the majority of my incandescent bulbs with CFLs. I wish stores would carry more cold white or pure white CFLs. I'm tired of the warm white variants.
LED bulb for ~ $24 at amazon:
Phillips EnduraLED.
At 10c per kWh and a 15 year lifespan, these bulbs have an estimated ROI of 285% vs. an incandescent with equivalent lumen output.
At $1 per bulb CFLs would have an ROI nearly 10x as good, even when including replacement bulbs due to the shortened lifespan... BUT you lose the instant on capability and sacrifice light quality.
Also keep in mind that this phillips is not particularly efficient for an LED. Price drops and efficiency increases will likely make LEDs the standard lightbulb within the next 10 years.
It makes little financial sense anymore to use incandescents over CFLs or LEDs. The long term return is better than the S&P index, and it's in savings not earnings and therefore tax-free.
For now, use LEDs for closets and other places where you'll be frequently toggling on/off. CFLs can be used everywhere else.
Phillips EnduraLED.
At 10c per kWh and a 15 year lifespan, these bulbs have an estimated ROI of 285% vs. an incandescent with equivalent lumen output.
At $1 per bulb CFLs would have an ROI nearly 10x as good, even when including replacement bulbs due to the shortened lifespan... BUT you lose the instant on capability and sacrifice light quality.
Also keep in mind that this phillips is not particularly efficient for an LED. Price drops and efficiency increases will likely make LEDs the standard lightbulb within the next 10 years.
It makes little financial sense anymore to use incandescents over CFLs or LEDs. The long term return is better than the S&P index, and it's in savings not earnings and therefore tax-free.
For now, use LEDs for closets and other places where you'll be frequently toggling on/off. CFLs can be used everywhere else.
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I bought one of the previous generation Philips LED bulbs at Home Depot as a way of testing one of these out (think it was about $22). It is a 40W equivalent that runs on 8W, but externally looks like this newer Philips bulb.
The place I installed this was in the hood of our kitchen range because, if any light seems to get left on accidentally during the day, it seems like it is that one. It is also the preferred light to have on when we are watching movies in the adjacent "family room". As a test, I didn't let my wife know that I had changed the bulb for about a week. I wanted to see if she noticed the difference between it and the incandescent it replaced (and she hates the blue-ish light out of "daylight" spectrum CFLs). She did not notice the swap until I told her. Even now, she agrees that it puts out a substantial amount of light and that it has a nice, warm quality.
The Philips LEDs seem very different from other LEDs that I've seen. They are not spotlight style. Given the cost, I'm not in a big stampede to replace lots of other bulbs in the house. The highest models they have are 60W equivalent bulbs now, but I imagine higher lumen models are on their way. As these things go, the cost will most likely come down as they improve their manufacturing technique and the technology matures.
The place I installed this was in the hood of our kitchen range because, if any light seems to get left on accidentally during the day, it seems like it is that one. It is also the preferred light to have on when we are watching movies in the adjacent "family room". As a test, I didn't let my wife know that I had changed the bulb for about a week. I wanted to see if she noticed the difference between it and the incandescent it replaced (and she hates the blue-ish light out of "daylight" spectrum CFLs). She did not notice the swap until I told her. Even now, she agrees that it puts out a substantial amount of light and that it has a nice, warm quality.
The Philips LEDs seem very different from other LEDs that I've seen. They are not spotlight style. Given the cost, I'm not in a big stampede to replace lots of other bulbs in the house. The highest models they have are 60W equivalent bulbs now, but I imagine higher lumen models are on their way. As these things go, the cost will most likely come down as they improve their manufacturing technique and the technology matures.
Trepidati0n
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So, what you are saying is the usage of technology is application dependant and that should be a consideration before telling the world "ZOMG, LED SUXOR"?
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Stone Cold
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Zarathustra[H];1038618596 said:
The total cost of ownership is less for compact fluorescents vs. LEDs, not to mention a much less expensive upfront cost.
Most Americans in the country pay less for electricity than the numbers used to calculate the energy savings. So, that $3/year savings is inflated. Also, the average use a person gets from one of these bulbs will also be much less than advertised (inflated reported lifespan, breakage, move/die from your home, used in places where it won't reach the end of its lifespan).
Yes, they are a new generation of LED bulbs. Even the last generation of Philips LED bulbs are probably better than you might expect. What it really boils down to are the lumens generated by the bulb. Some manufacturers are pretty loose with what they call a 40W or 60W equivalent.
For reference:
GE soft white incandescent output
60W - 780 lm
75W - 1085 lm
100W - 1260 lm
Last generation Philips Ambient LEDs
8W - 470 lm (considered 40W equivalent)
12.5W - 800 lm (considered 60W equivalent)
17W - 1100 lm (considered 75W equivalent)
New Philips Ambient LED (the L-prize winner)
10W - 940 lm (considered 60W equivalent)
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Zarathustra[H]
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As long as the utilities are taking their profits to pay for these rebates, and not accepting my tax dollars, they can do whatever they want.
LED's aren't viable yet in my opinion, CFL's are best for most applications. Outdoors, LED's are fine though, since they tolerate low temp's better. Still, I wish they'd make cheaper HID's... I don't understand why I can buy a pair of 35w HID's with ballasts for $40, but I can't buy home HID lighting for anywhere near that.
LED's aren't viable yet in my opinion, CFL's are best for most applications. Outdoors, LED's are fine though, since they tolerate low temp's better. Still, I wish they'd make cheaper HID's... I don't understand why I can buy a pair of 35w HID's with ballasts for $40, but I can't buy home HID lighting for anywhere near that.
sfsuphysics
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Myth
-- I can replace my incandescent bulbs with LED bulbs and use my dimmer.
++ Better reign that one in sparky, if your dimmer is old, like 70s old, it basically is a resistor that limits the voltage to the bulbs. You're not saving any money by dimming (it's just moving the power to the dimmer switch, in the way of heat), and probably won't work with LED bulbs. You really need a modern dimmer which works on different principles.
++ Also not all LED bulbs are inherently dimmable. The whole modern dimmer thing mentioned above works with circuitry inside the bulb to actually do the dimming, no circuitry, no dimming.
-- They have dimmable CFLs now
++ True, but then you're running the gambit of playing with some horribly produced bulbs with nasty side effects, turns off too soon, won't turn back on, very slow warm and they're also quite a bit more expensive than regular CFLs (although not as expensive as LED bulbs)
++ Plus there aren't many dimming options for CFLs.
-- LEDs won't save you any money over CFL bulbs.
++ True... maybe. Depends upon how much your CFL bulb costs and how long it really lasts. CFL bulbs were not meant to be hung upside down, or sideways, they were designed to stand straight up, so any heat stays away from the base of the bulb. Most instances people don't have table lamps like grandma used to have, they have ceiling lights for their lighting. Also if you turn CFLs on and off somewhat quickly, you'll also reduce their life span significantly. Remember those 6-8 year numbers are in IDEAL conditions in a lab, granted LED bulbs also are rated as such, but they tend to be much more forgiving for "standard use". Keep in mind a poorly constructed LED bulb (lacking the ability to properly remove heat) also will die very quickly. So if you buy those cheapy $1 CFL bulbs, you'll probably save money over the life of a LED bulb (especially these $50 bulbs), if you are spending $5-10 for a CFL bulb and it burns out after 2 years... not so much.
I picked up 6 of those a couple years back when Lowes had an Earth Day sale (they were $20 at the time), considering they're "40 watt equivalent" they're awfully damn bright, mostly because the light actually shines outwards and not as much inside towards the spiral part of a CFL. I replaced in my living room a 150 watt halogen floor lamp with 6 of these bulbs (45 watts total) and these bulbs can brighten the entire room WAY better than the floor lamp, so much so I installed a dimmer with them and often don't have them up all the way. Best of all, you turn them on they're at the full brightness when you turn them on, none of this warm up period that plagues all CFL bulbs.
For $10 a bulb isn't half bad price (unfortunately I was in HD the other day and noticed that store had nothing but Phillips brand LEDs which are significantly more expensive). I would recommend people who might be on the fence, buy a single bulb, and simply use it in a comparison against other bulbs you might have.
-- I can replace my incandescent bulbs with LED bulbs and use my dimmer.
++ Better reign that one in sparky, if your dimmer is old, like 70s old, it basically is a resistor that limits the voltage to the bulbs. You're not saving any money by dimming (it's just moving the power to the dimmer switch, in the way of heat), and probably won't work with LED bulbs. You really need a modern dimmer which works on different principles.
++ Also not all LED bulbs are inherently dimmable. The whole modern dimmer thing mentioned above works with circuitry inside the bulb to actually do the dimming, no circuitry, no dimming.
-- They have dimmable CFLs now
++ True, but then you're running the gambit of playing with some horribly produced bulbs with nasty side effects, turns off too soon, won't turn back on, very slow warm and they're also quite a bit more expensive than regular CFLs (although not as expensive as LED bulbs)
++ Plus there aren't many dimming options for CFLs.
-- LEDs won't save you any money over CFL bulbs.
++ True... maybe. Depends upon how much your CFL bulb costs and how long it really lasts. CFL bulbs were not meant to be hung upside down, or sideways, they were designed to stand straight up, so any heat stays away from the base of the bulb. Most instances people don't have table lamps like grandma used to have, they have ceiling lights for their lighting. Also if you turn CFLs on and off somewhat quickly, you'll also reduce their life span significantly. Remember those 6-8 year numbers are in IDEAL conditions in a lab, granted LED bulbs also are rated as such, but they tend to be much more forgiving for "standard use". Keep in mind a poorly constructed LED bulb (lacking the ability to properly remove heat) also will die very quickly. So if you buy those cheapy $1 CFL bulbs, you'll probably save money over the life of a LED bulb (especially these $50 bulbs), if you are spending $5-10 for a CFL bulb and it burns out after 2 years... not so much.
I picked up 6 of those a couple years back when Lowes had an Earth Day sale (they were $20 at the time), considering they're "40 watt equivalent" they're awfully damn bright, mostly because the light actually shines outwards and not as much inside towards the spiral part of a CFL. I replaced in my living room a 150 watt halogen floor lamp with 6 of these bulbs (45 watts total) and these bulbs can brighten the entire room WAY better than the floor lamp, so much so I installed a dimmer with them and often don't have them up all the way. Best of all, you turn them on they're at the full brightness when you turn them on, none of this warm up period that plagues all CFL bulbs.
For $10 a bulb isn't half bad price (unfortunately I was in HD the other day and noticed that store had nothing but Phillips brand LEDs which are significantly more expensive). I would recommend people who might be on the fence, buy a single bulb, and simply use it in a comparison against other bulbs you might have.
Godmachine
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20 years of use for $60? Sounds damn good to me. As long as it can get as bright as a regular ole CFL than I'm on board.
I'll trust the 20 year number as soon as it's in the warranty.
sfsuphysics
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On SD, there was a thread for a 7-W LED bulb for under $7 shipped from Newegg.
Depends where you put the bulb... it's not dimmable, so will work anywhere you don't need/want to dim (garage, entry way, etc)
Every bulb in my house is CFL (I have some ceiling fixtures without light bulbs, simply because they don't need it) from when they did their rebates (a pack of 6 was $2.33 at Sams Club, I stocked up and did the whole house for $20).
I'd love to use LED bulbs for the kitchen and stuff (the most used areas), but they're too damn expensive. It's not just this bulb, it's any LED light bulb. The cheapest I've seen them is $20 at Costco. The heatsinks on them are massive as well (I believe they were Phillips).
You can get the cheapo China ones for $5 online (or at Fry's for $10 or so). They're just an array of LEDs in a dome shape. I doubt they'd last very long.
I'd love to use LED bulbs for the kitchen and stuff (the most used areas), but they're too damn expensive. It's not just this bulb, it's any LED light bulb. The cheapest I've seen them is $20 at Costco. The heatsinks on them are massive as well (I believe they were Phillips).
You can get the cheapo China ones for $5 online (or at Fry's for $10 or so). They're just an array of LEDs in a dome shape. I doubt they'd last very long.
sfsuphysics
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You also need to watch out as not all LEDs are made (or hell designed) equally. The ones you're talking about probably are the old 5mm LEDs which as far as technology goes, is like saying an Apple IIe is a cheap computer, so why get an i7 system.. Newer LEDs are pushing nearly 200 lumens per watt, mind you that's not what's inside home lighting, which is closer to 70-80 lumens per watt, but it still is a world of different between the little guys that are in those cheap as LED flashlights you see all over the place.
Red Squirrel
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While it's nice to see a move towards even more energy efficient bulbs, I think the approach is all wrong. Why have a driver circuit in every single bulb when there could be a centralized solution? There needs to be an electrical standard made for lighting, and a new voltage and socket standard that works best for a variety of bulbs. Then you would have a driver circuit at your electrical panel with it's own DC breakers for all the light circuits.
I use mostly CFLs at home and they're fine. I don't even get what people are talking about when they say they make bad light. I actually find they make better light than incandescent but you really want the 100w equivalent ones. Only issue I've noticed is that they are inconsistent as far as the lighting temperature. Some of them are a pure white which is what you want, but some have a blue tint to it. So if you are going to light up an area with multiple bulbs you really need to use the ones from the same brand and it might be hard finding the same brand years later when one of them burns as stores change inventory all the time. Some of them do have a warm up period as well.
Only thing with CFLs is they are not meant to be turned on/off all the time or it will shorten their life. That's why I use incadescents in my bathroom, and I am replacing those rather often, and I have yet to replace a CFL since I moved here, unless it was defective or got broke by something. Been in this house for 3 years.
I use mostly CFLs at home and they're fine. I don't even get what people are talking about when they say they make bad light. I actually find they make better light than incandescent but you really want the 100w equivalent ones. Only issue I've noticed is that they are inconsistent as far as the lighting temperature. Some of them are a pure white which is what you want, but some have a blue tint to it. So if you are going to light up an area with multiple bulbs you really need to use the ones from the same brand and it might be hard finding the same brand years later when one of them burns as stores change inventory all the time. Some of them do have a warm up period as well.
Only thing with CFLs is they are not meant to be turned on/off all the time or it will shorten their life. That's why I use incadescents in my bathroom, and I am replacing those rather often, and I have yet to replace a CFL since I moved here, unless it was defective or got broke by something. Been in this house for 3 years.
This isn't a negative, you want to use your heater to create heat, its much cheaper to burn natural gas to heat home than use electricity. Worst case the two are equal.
Zarathustra[H]
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I have noticed that CFL's take anywhere from a few seconds to half a minute to warm up properly, and their light quality and intensity is very different at "just powered on" state from what it is in "fully warmed up state". This is the only thing I can think of that people are complaining about. Other than that, I am with you. The light quality and intensity is good.
The only downside is for photography. To the human eye, they may all seem pretty OK, but to a camera, even the "pure white" variety come out with a slight green hue. Now, you can set the white balance on your camera to compensate for this, but if you are dealing with multiple different light sources this can be challenging. The easiest to fix is probably flash, for which they sell fluorescent compensation gels that make the flash light the same color as the fluorescent bulbs, and thus allowing the camera's white balance adjustment to be uniform. That being said, the same problem occurs for incandescent bulbs which have a yellow hue, and you need to correct for using yellow incandescent gels....
Yep we'll rewire every building in the world. This seems realistic. Also wiring house with 12V DC for lighting is an idea, but what uses 12V DC? Each bulb would still need DC-DC converters or some constant current regulator. You're just creating even more problems without solving any.
DustMite
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Not true, sort of. Regular duty incandescent light bulbs are no longer made in the US is true.
What many do not realize is that the law still allows "specialty" bulbs such as those used for rough duty applications.
There is a company that makes these rough service incandescent bulbs in the US. Just click on over to this link.
I refuse to use the mercury filled curly-Q light bulbs as they give me frequent headaches and they never last as long as claimed.
Since I went back to incandescent bulbs, I don't get the headaches like I did with the curly-Q bulbs.
As for LED bulbs, why do taxpayers have to subsidize a light bulb? What I don't like about LED lighting is that the light given off doesn't like up a room as well as an incandescent bulb in the same fixture.
For a hallway the spotlight cone effect of an LED seems ok, but for the bedroom, my home office, or the kitchen, the 180 degree cone of light given off by the LED is no substitute for the 360 degree ball of light given off by the incandescent bulb.
LED light bulbs may have a place in some locations, they are far from ideal for all applications.
I think it should be up to the consumer to determine which light bulb they wish to use.
Zarathustra[H];1038620166 said:
Yeah this is a really annoying problem. It used to be all lights were the same color, or at least close enough that I never really noticed. Now if you have a room with 5 different light sources each with a slightly different color-- ugh. Home depot actually has a $11 '60w' LED blub... its actually 7watts and puts out 450lumens. I bought one just to try out, and I like it, but the next day I had to go buy a few more so I could get all the bulbs in the room to match, lol.
Most my CFL's are upside down in ceiling fans or recessed lighting, yet most of them are still working great after 4-5 years. Even better, with the local utility discounts, I paid as little as 25 cents a bulb, which is cheaper than incandescent bulbs.
I did have failer problems with some of the earlier bulbs, but the ones I've bought the last few years have been reliable. I probably have enough stocked up to last me another 10 years, so hopefully the LED lights will be cheaper by then.
FWIW [some] people used to complain about getting headaches from old Florescent lighting. Magnetic ballasts would cause the florescent lights to flicker at 60hz. Eg think of a CRT refreshing at 60hz, it is noticeable. Almost everything uses electronic ballasts these days, and certainly all CFLs, which refresh at 10s of khz. You're not going to get a headache if a light is flickering at 50,000hz. Again eg think of a CRT refreshing at 50,000hz, or eg think of your LCD monitor, does it give you a headache?
Maybe you don't like the color of light being produced? I mean you can buy CFLs with high CRI. I don't actually care though. You're headache comment was just a little close to the flickering complaint that is stupid as hell.
SonDa5
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Seems like a waste of tax dollars for the Governement to award a company $10 million dollars to develop such an over priced product.
This type of technology should be driven by the private industry without the help of the government getting involved. If this stuff is loved then it will sell. Right now seems like the wrong approach to bring a new light bulb technology out.
As much as I like the idea of a long lasting power saving light bulb there is no way I would pay $50 for light bulb. I think the government rebates on this type of a bulb is just a waste of tax payer money.
This type of technology should be driven by the private industry without the help of the government getting involved. If this stuff is loved then it will sell. Right now seems like the wrong approach to bring a new light bulb technology out.
As much as I like the idea of a long lasting power saving light bulb there is no way I would pay $50 for light bulb. I think the government rebates on this type of a bulb is just a waste of tax payer money.
Even with the $10 rebate its $50 a pop still, I have about 30 light bulbs in my house that'd be $1500, no thanks. Eventually this technolofy will br affordable, for now I'm putting in pigtails when my incandesent bulbs burn out ,they have a 5 year life span good enough for my needs,I don't really like the florescent light but it works .
If these dim I'm picking up some for my Theater
Note that you can get Chinese made, a little less efficient versions of the Philips bulb for $30.
I've found the Feit Electric LED bulbs bought at Costco (A19 and Par30) dim very poorly with my dimmer (purchased in 2010) controlling only one bulb. Also I don't like the multiple small white LED design in the Par30, it just doesn't look like a normal light inside the can.
The weird thing is the Lowe's House Brand Utilitech LED BR30 flood light dims well, and has a globe that glows like a normal bulb and doesn't have that weird yellow phosphor color when off.
Utilitech 65-Watt Equivalent Soft White Decorative LED Light Bulb
Item #: 338929 | Model #: UHLBR3012W27K
http://www.lowes.com/pd_338929-24073-UHLBR3012W27K_0__?productId=3566994&
I've also purchased the ecoSmart brand LED lights from Home Depot.
The cheap A19 LED bulb they have dims poorly and hums quite badly, however the much more expensive PAR25 LED Spot dims very well, but looks kind of weird.
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202188260/h_d2/ProductDisplay
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&catEntryId=202324430
crazypooljunkie
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I do agree with you on the PAR 30, not sure it is something I'd want to put anywhere I'm going to see...
However, I've got a brand new light fixture (5 bulbs) installed in my dining room along with a new dimmer switch, the bulbs dim great (nice and smooth from full brightness too extremely dim).
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=a9_sc_1?rh=i:aps,k:cfl+bulb&keywords=cfl+bulb&ie=UTF8&qid=1334716142
In my humble opinion, it's still too early to jump on the LED bandwagon. CFL is already good efficiency for now and if you buy them in packs you're paying ~$1 each. I know that LED is more efficient, but really, when you're going from 60 -> 13 you save 47, but when you go from 13 -> 6 you save only 7 watts. Let's concentrate on getting people off of incandescent first, then once that happens we can obsess over the last few bits of efficiency. I'll certainly buy it once it gets into the ~$10 range, but for now CFL is the sweet spot.
In my humble opinion, it's still too early to jump on the LED bandwagon. CFL is already good efficiency for now and if you buy them in packs you're paying ~$1 each. I know that LED is more efficient, but really, when you're going from 60 -> 13 you save 47, but when you go from 13 -> 6 you save only 7 watts. Let's concentrate on getting people off of incandescent first, then once that happens we can obsess over the last few bits of efficiency. I'll certainly buy it once it gets into the ~$10 range, but for now CFL is the sweet spot.
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Red Squirrel
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Don't have to rewire anything, this would be a new standard as of now, and would apply to new construction, or those who choose to rewire. The parts in CFL/LED that fail are usually the electronics that drive them. Why not centralize those electronics in one area, make it better and in commercial buildings, even redundant and battery backed up.
sfsuphysics
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Lutron makes a dimmer specifically designed for dimmable CFL & LED bulbs, their C-L line. I don't know how much of a difference it makes over standard dimmers because I've only used this one, but seems to work fine.
I use the 40w equiv ones, they actually are light bulb shaped, Fit nicely in the recessed fixtures (smaller 4" ones). Most of all though even though from a lumens standpoint they're a bit less than other bulbs, but all the light comes out on one side of the bulb, so they actually are brighter than a CFL of the same wattage (equiv). I don't need light going into the fixture, I want it coming down. Bright suckers.
I'm not having much luck with CFL's. The lightbulb went out in my apartments kitchen and I replaced it with a CFL which lasted for about 4 hours then stopped working. Tried another one and I think it lasted about a day.
your light is messed up
Zarathustra[H]
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I believe this is what is so special about the new generation of LED bulbs. They are supposed to be mostly indistinguishable from incandescents once installed. (or at least, the light output is). Don't know how it is accomplished, probably though beefy LED's coupled with some sort of fancy reflector and dispersion filter.