Deinterlacer, scaler, and judder-free: how important are these?

T

ThierryC

n00b
Joined
Apr 6, 2012
Messages
8
Hello,

I read, notably on Prad.de and DigitalVersus, that the majority of monitors have difficulties to reproduce TV, DVD and Bluray materials perfectly.
Namely, problems such as bad deinterlacing, scaling, interpolation, and lack of judder-free support of some frequencies (24 H, 50 Hz) are mentioned.

I would like to know how important are these problems in real life situations when one want to use a (16:10) monitor partly as a TV?
More precisely, should I expect to be able to avoid those problems easily with a suitable treatment of the material on the side of the player or decoder?

Thank you for sharing your knowledge!
Thierry
 
The vast majority of PC monitors are unsuitable as TV's. Very few have tuners built in, that's usually important if you want OTA or QAM cable; otherwise you just need multiple inputs and good video processing. But most don't have added features like 3:2 pulldown detection and deinterlacing; it just adds cost. Also I haven't seen a GOOD scaler on a PC display for several years now. The trend seems to be less features & OSD controls.

But you don't need video processing on the display if your device can already do it. A PS3 for example has awesome deinterlacing, scaling, and 24p support already. You might find cheap BR players and many cable/sat boxes have minimal or poor processing to begin with. Also if your device doesn't output 60hz, you'll find a lot of panels have hit-or-miss mode support.
 
lawless2142 said:
The vast majority of PC monitors are unsuitable as TV's. Very few have tuners built in, that's usually important if you want OTA or QAM cable; otherwise you just need multiple inputs and good video processing. But most don't have added features like 3:2 pulldown detection and deinterlacing; it just adds cost. Also I haven't seen a GOOD scaler on a PC display for several years now. The trend seems to be less features & OSD controls.

But you don't need video processing on the display if your device can already do it. A PS3 for example has awesome deinterlacing, scaling, and 24p support already. You might find cheap BR players and many cable/sat boxes have minimal or poor processing to begin with. Also if your device doesn't output 60hz, you'll find a lot of panels have hit-or-miss mode support.
Click to expand...

This is good advice.
 
lawless2142 said:
The vast majority of PC monitors are unsuitable as TV's. Very few have tuners built in.
[...]
But you don't need video processing on the display if your device can already do it.
Click to expand...
I agree ; and monitors who have a tuner are TNs... Unfortunately, since a TV is unsuitable as a PC monitor and I don't have enough room for two screens, I decided to go the monitor route with a "tuner-in-a-box" (DVB-T/C).
Now, I don't know how to choose the right couple of devices: namely, should I focus to monitors with good processing, or to boxes with good processing?

You might find cheap BR players and many cable/sat boxes have minimal or poor processing to begin with.
Click to expand...
That is exactly my problem I think: I should find a device which can output a signal in HD (scaling), progressive (full frame through deinterlacing), and with 60 Hz (for judder-free playback on the monitor).
How to find out if a device fulfills these features?
Are there particular conventions to search for in the specs or specialized websites reviewing these?

Many thanks!
 
ThierryC said:
Does anyone have an idea?
Thanks.
Click to expand...

How much are you willing to spend?


You could buy something like a DVDO Duo. It's an external video processor, scaler, de-interlacer, and a partridge in a pear tree. ;) It has two video outputs. I haven't updated my firmware in a while but I *think* they finally updated where you can drive two different displays simultaneously with independent settings and the rest of it.


I've used one since they came out. I was able to get on sale. I've noticed the price has gone up as has scarcity which makes me halfway wonder if there's something new coming or if it's just done and over with.




The Duo's little brother is the DVDO Edge. Worth looking at also. You lose the second video output and a couple of other features. Fundamental performance is identical.

None of these devices have TV tuners or anything like that.


Further thought:

If you're into home theater anyways and you have that upgrade itch, these days there are a lot of AVRs that have most of the video processing features built into them like the above products mentioned so it really can become a left hand vs right hand issue as to which way you want to go.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your answer.
Q-BZ said:
How much are you willing to spend?
Click to expand...
It depends. :D
If the device does what I need it for and does it well, I'm willing to pay what it deserves. As an example, I'm not willing to pay 1000 $ for DVDO Duo since I will pay for lot of features I don't need (e.g., many inputs, output to 2 screens), while in the same time it lacks some features I need (e.g., TV tuners).
As another example: I don't really need an integrated DVD or Bluray player. However, if everything else is OK, then I could consider the extra price of this addition as fair (or not).

You could buy something like a DVDO Duo
Click to expand...
It indeed looks like this device has every processing capabilities one could wish for. However, I don't need such a lot of inputs. In fact, the lack of 1-2 TV tuners is a more crucial point. I don't really understand the advantage of such a device without a tuner. It means one has to buy an external tuner which is one more box on the desk.

If you're into home theater [...]
Click to expand...
No, I'm not really into home theater at the moment (I would buy a big TV, not a monitor, for that purpose). I would just like to have a single installation capable of rendering video/TV in a good quality (in terms of images, sound will be stereo). The primary use of the monitor will be for work, however.

[...] these days there are a lot of AVRs that have most of the video processing features built into them [...]
Click to expand...
By the way, isn't the above device an AVR?

Any advice is welcome!
Many Thanks!

EDIT: In order to clarify what I'm looking for, here are some of the devices I looked at:
DViCO TViX S1 Duo, DViCO TViX 6632N, AC Ryan Playon!DVR HD, Storex MediaZapper HD2, ...
I manely wonder if they are capable of good processing.
 
Last edited:
By the way, isn't the above device an AVR?
Click to expand...
A dedicated videoprocessor is way better suited for the task of video processing. The market has shrunk but machines like the Lumagen Radiance (with excellent scaling and great CMS implementation) and DVDO Edge/ Duo (unbeaten video-mode deinterlacing and good post processing) are still very usefull (using a Radiance and VP50 myself). They can't of course eliminante judder effects resulting from fixed panel update frequencies many computer displays (in contrast to LCD-TVs) still have.Using them as source for computer displays is not their intended field of action: They are primary intended for LCD-, Plasma-TVs and video projectors.

Best regards

Denis
 
Last edited:
If you're still hunting, just buy a PS3. It supports like every format, handles framerates properly, everything. And you can do RGB instead of YCbCr for full black levels. That'll pretty much solve the VP problem on cheap monitors. Then setup media streaming on a PC for everything you don't want to play back from an HD, BR, etc.
 
Thanks for your answers!
Sailor_Moon said:
They can't of course eliminante judder effects resulting from fixed panel update frequencies many computer displays (in contrast to LCD-TVs) still have.Using them as source for computer displays is not their intended field of action: They are primary intended for LCD-, Plasma-TVs and video projectors.
Click to expand...
Thank you Denis for this clarification. However, I'm now confused: what should I deduced from your input given my situation?

lawless2142 said:
If you're still hunting, just buy a PS3. [...] That'll pretty much solve the VP problem on cheap monitors.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this advice lawless2142, but it seems to me PS3 —despite its processing quality I also heard of— is not a suitable choice for me. PS3 doesn't have a TV tuner and I'm not a gamer (not on PS3 at least). Tell me if I didn't fully understand your point.

By the way, I'm not going to buy a cheap monitor. Probably not the most expensive either. I looked at IPS and S-PVA monitors among which one fulfill pretty all processing requirements, namely the Eizo Foris FX2431. Some others are not "perfect" but not the leasts either: NEC P241W, HP ZR2440w, Asus PA238Q, Fujitsu P27T-6, Dell U2410. As all of these costs much less than the Eizo, I would like to know how important are the aforementioned problems in real life situations.

Thanks again!
 
ThierryC said:
NEC P241W,
Click to expand...

I can personally vouch for this monitor.

TV Tuner...you're going to be out of pocket seperately for one no matter what else you do.

There's a number of ways you can go there. There's set top boxes or the GPU route. I think that plus a PS3 would go a long ways for you.

Also consider a DVDO Edge if you need something that handles several sources at the same time.
 
Questions:

1. Do you intend to watch tv through your computer? IE, watch Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, and a cable tuner?

2. What other video sources do you have? IE, Blue Ray, DVD, roku/boxee, game console?

3. Do you have a plan for sound output?
 
Thanks for the good questions cvgd!
cvgd said:
1. Do you intend to watch tv through your computer? IE, watch Netflix, Hulu, Amazon Prime, and a cable tuner?
Click to expand...
No, I would prefer to be able to switch off my computer when watching TV (when not doing something on my computer in the same time...).
I live in Europe so I think I do not have access to Netflix and the like anyway.
Besides, my computer is a laptop; no place for an internal tuner-card; using a PCMCIA / EC card is not the best idea I think.
Of course, I intend to watch some Internet videos and maybe DVD on my computer, but not TV as such.
2. What other video sources do you have? IE, Blue Ray, DVD, roku/boxee, game console?
Click to expand...
I have no other video sources than TV (via cable => box, probably) and my laptop (DVD, no Blu-ray). I may buy a Blu-ray player once but it's not on my "buying list" yet.
I think the ideal for me would be to buy a box which has 1 or 2 HD TV-tuner + an HDD (or external HDD feature). I would then linked it to the monitor with HDMI (or HDMI->DVI).
I didn't know roku or boxee; I'll have a look.
3. Do you have a plan for sound output?
Click to expand...
Either played back with the Eizo Foris FX2431 if I select this monitor, or redirected to a set of stereo speakers with 3.5 mm jack.
I repeat, I do not intend to have a so-called home cinema.

Q-BZ said:
TV Tuner...you're going to be out of pocket seperately for one no matter what else you do.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I do not understand. Could you please re-phrase or explain your thoughts?
There's a number of ways you can go there. There's set top boxes or the GPU route. I think that plus a PS3 would go a long ways for you.
Click to expand...
"That" means the GPU route? Does GPU route mean adding a TV-tuner card to a desktop PC? This last route doesn't seem appropriate in my situation (laptop).

I look forward to your answers!
 
I don't know anything about how this will work outside fo the states, unfortunately.

No, I would prefer to be able to switch off my computer when watching TV (when not doing something on my computer in the same time...).
I live in Europe so I think I do not have access to Netflix and the like anyway.
Click to expand...

The only way you can do this is if you have an external tuner box. Does your cable service come with an external box?

Besides, my computer is a laptop; no place for an internal tuner-card; using a PCMCIA / EC card is not the best idea I think.
Of course, I intend to watch some Internet videos and maybe DVD on my computer, but not TV as such.
Click to expand...

There are USB options as well. There are a number of small clear qam tuners, and cablecard options from Hauppage & Ceton. Silicondust offers a network based tuner. Unfortunately, I believe all those standards are US only -- Europe uses DVB -- again, I think.

You need to figure out what standard your cable service provides and see if there is an external tuner box. With digital cable in the States, almost all providers require that you use a leased external box.

Either played back with the Eizo Foris FX2431 if I select this monitor, or redirected to a set of stereo speakers with 3.5 mm jack. I repeat, I do not intend to have a so-called home cinema.
Click to expand...

I don't know of any computer monitors that provide even remotely tolerable sound output. You will probably have to go the secondary route, with a small amplifier and speakers, or a set of powered speakers.

You may want to take a look at the Sony Playstation display. It is a monitor, no tuner, and had some problems with the power supply, but I suspect they are largely resolved. It's retails for $400 here, much less than the Eizo. It should be solid on motion and picture quality.
 
Thanks for the answer.

Yes, DVB is the protocol which is used in my country.
cvgd said:
Does your cable service come with an external box?
[...]
You need to figure out what standard your cable service provides and see if there is an external tuner box.
Click to expand...
There is a few possible providers with different solutions (DVB-C or T, DSL, some "mix", ...). My current cable service doesn't necessarily come with an external box (they inject DVB-T type of signal through the cable as far as I know, but I have to check). Others provide an external box, but I'm not sure they contain a tuner in fact. As I understood, it's mainly to convert the signal from their proprietary protocol (which is not DVB-C nor DVB-T).

But here we exactly reach the subject of my concern: The external boxes provided by TV services (cable or Internet) are basically made for being used with a TV. Hence they may not even contain a tuner (?) and probably offer little signal processing (?). This is the reason why I'm interested in buying a personnaly chosen external box which I hope should be more appropriate for being used with a monitor.
I may be wrong here. Therefore I ask.
Indeed, I wonder:
1) If there exist such particular boxes, which take coaxial (ANT.) as input, have 1 or 2 HD-tuner (DVB-T/C), output in HDMI, and offer good signal processing for being used with a monitor?
AND
2) How critical are the absence of such signal processing* in real life situation with a monitor?

* That is, output a signal in HD (scaling), progressive (full frame through deinterlacing), and with 60 Hz (for judder-free playback on the monitor).

I don't know of any computer monitors that provide even remotely tolerable sound output.
Click to expand...
According to reviewers, FX2431 is quite an exception. Anyway, it should be better than my current CRT TV which is mono... I'm prepared to buy external stereo speakers if not satisfied.
 
ThierryC said:
Hi and thank you for sharing your opinion.
If you work with colors PA241W is surely the best choice, if you don't work with colors Foris or S2433 is the way to go.
Click to expand...
I would like better than average colours, but I'm not working with colours specifically. I discovered the P241W (not PA) which is a better choice for me than the PA241W if I go that route (NEC) — similar monitor & options but with e-IPS sRGB panel and ~ half the price.
The S-PVA panels gives you near perfect color reproduction
Click to expand...
The deltaE > 10 for blues of the Foris wasn't a problem for you? Was it noticeable in some situations?
really better contrast and backs.
Click to expand...
I know this is usually the advantage of S-PVA panel over IPS. But I was quite disappointed to see a value of "only" 1050:1 for the Foris. Considering e-IPS panel usually obtain contrast bigger than 900 in reviews (up to 1050 for the HP ZR2440w), this is no more an advantage when compared to some e-IPS monitors.
How will you use this monitor?
Click to expand...
I will use it mainly for work (lots of reading, coding, CFD & CAD) and as a TV-screen. Once in a while for video games, too.

In fact, the only real reason I consider the Foris is because of its very good processing of media in the context of DVD/TV usage (according to Prad.de).
Therefore, I have lots of doubt, especially since for nearly any other criterion, it is beaten by other monitors in my list.

If you would like more precision, I posted two threads:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1686333
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1331422046

Given the fact such high-end monitors cannot be seen in shops, your opinion is much appreciated!
Thanks again!

PS: Is the PiP feature working well?
Click to expand...


Pip works great.
The average error on blu is not noticeable I can tell you for sure.
The contrast is far superior on S-PVA due to its deep blacks, numbers doesn't says all.

Sincerely if you use monitors for reading, coding, cad and gaming I really can't find any reason on why get an IPS monitor.

I think that this may be considered better than average colors reproduction :)
EIZO S2433W UGRA Test
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/17948666/Report20110728 21-15.pdf
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top