Midrange 24" IPS for digital Design work (Dell u2412m, HPZR24, HP2440w)?

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Jansma

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Hello all,

Long time reader, first time poster.

I am looking for a long due replacement for my trusty Diamondtron CRT and will be hooked up to a GeForce8800GTS videocard.

I primarily use the screen for professional digital design (web, motion, illustration), apart from the usual Office applications. No gaming. Only a small part of my work is for print, so i decided against the most obvious choice (Dell u2410) since the little time I would benefit from its WG does not weight up against all the drawbacks.

Both the Apple Cinema Display and the NEC2490wUXI2 are out of my budget, so I shifted my attention to the Dell u2412m and the HPZR24w (the HP2440w is too new for my liking, so lacks critical mass when it comes to reviews and user experiences (apart from revisions to iron out the kinks usually associated with the first batch).

Now I have read the Dell2412m thread with the extensive review and comments by 10e, which was extremely helpful. But what I could not get from that thread is if the u2412, for all its merrits, is suitable for professional digital design. From a service points of view (here in Holland, Dell gives that handy onsite 3 yr Next Business Day Exchange Service plus the zero bright pixel guarantee - HP does not) I really want to like the Dell...

But from what I understand, the Dell is a 6bit + FRC against the HP 8bit+FRC, the Dell covers less of the sRGB spectrum (74.3% Adobe RGB, 95.8% sRGB) than the HP (75.2% Adobe RGB, 96.7% sRGB), that the u2412m sharpness is kinda disappointing. So the HP seems to have the upper hand when it comes to IQ. But I cannot determine if the difference between both is even noticable or simply numbers.

Accurate colors and uniformity are ofcourse very important for any designer or graphic professional, so I am very much in doubt if the Dell is good enough for my purposes.

I would very much appreciate your input!

Cheers :)
 
Last edited:
Which color space are you working in? That should guide you.

The HP ZR24w is very well-regarded especially at its current price and true 8-bit panel.
 
When designing for web, software, other screen products and so on, you use the sRGB color space. But both the Dell u2412 as the HP are sRGB screens, so that is not going to be the deciding factor.
 
I had the ZR24W briefly at the same time as the Dell U2412 and found the black levels on the U2412 much better. I returned the HP and went with 3 u2412's. 2 for home, 1 for work. The lower LED electricity costs are a bonus.
 
Thanks. Did you see any other difference between the two IQ wise, apart from the blacklevels?
 
Jansma said:
Thanks. Did you see any other difference between the two IQ wise, apart from the blacklevels?
Click to expand...

I was reviewing wallpaper on both, side by side and found them pretty equal. I liked the OSD better on the Dell since the buttons lined up with the OSD actions. The HP buttons on the bottom did not correlate to what you saw on the screen. Minor point, but I think the Dell monitors have made the OSD functions quite easy to use without the need to labeling +/-, etc.

I've run gray ramps on the Dell U2412 6bit FRC and they are very good, no noticeable colorations from only being 6bit. I'm using these monitors for video and photography and did not want to deal with wide gamut issues again like I had on a Sony laptop.
 
Thanks! Score +1 for the Dell ;-)

So one can say that the slightly smaller cover of the sRGB colorspace (also the new HP2440w has a smaller cover than the ZR24w oddly enough) has no visible difference?

Other experiences are ofcourse much appreciated as well.
 
I went with the Dell U2412M. I too clung to CRTs but my Sony FW900 and SGI 21 inch monitors all died. Dell U2412M Image quality once calibrated was better then I expected and the $315 shipped price and warranty are definite pluses.
 
Cool, thanks. 2 questions for you if you dont mind...

1. What did you use for calibration
2. How do you judge the contrastlevel of the u2412m?

Thanks a lot!
 
Jansma said:
Thanks! Score +1 for the Dell ;-)

So one can say that the slightly smaller cover of the sRGB colorspace (also the new HP2440w has a smaller cover than the ZR24w oddly enough) has no visible difference?

Other experiences are ofcourse much appreciated as well.
Click to expand...

The sRGB coverage is fine for all three screens. It's extremely unlikely you would see a difference, as well as with the 6-bit + A-FRC versus the regular 8-bit characteristics.

Jansma said:
Hmmm, just found via Behardware this review by Digital Versus with an actually pretty bad review of the u2412. Anyone knows if they are considered reliable and find their findings recognisable?

http://www.digitalversus.com/lcd-monitor/hp-zr24w-p11056/test.html
Click to expand...

Digital Versus is not a great site for reviews. Their response time test is a complete joke. It's based on Flash which is inconsistent in terms of frame rate and it can judder badly showing exagerrated overdrive/blur effects. The reverse ghosting they harp on is basically invisible during regular use and gaming.

Take their tests with a grain of salt or two. I'm not saying this because I like the U2412M and they don't, but because their testing methods are very suspect.
 
Consider the HP ZR2440w. It's the replacement for the ZR24w. PRAD and TFTcentral's reviews showed it had better contrast and black level and was about half the thickness. If you are working in sRGB you should be fine.
 
dparm said:
Consider the HP ZR2440w. It's the replacement for the ZR24w. PRAD and TFTcentral's reviews showed it had better contrast and black level and was about half the thickness. If you are working in sRGB you should be fine.
Click to expand...

Color banding was the big negative on this HP ZR2440w monitor. I posted some images on another thread and another user confirmed. Otherwise, it sounded pretty good.
 
10e said:
The sRGB coverage is fine for all three screens. It's extremely unlikely you would see a difference, as well as with the 6-bit + A-FRC versus the regular 8-bit characteristics.



Digital Versus is not a great site for reviews. Their response time test is a complete joke. It's based on Flash which is inconsistent in terms of frame rate and it can judder badly showing exagerrated overdrive/blur effects. The reverse ghosting they harp on is basically invisible during regular use and gaming.

Take their tests with a grain of salt or two. I'm not saying this because I like the U2412M and they don't, but because their testing methods are very suspect.
Click to expand...

Thanks, 10e! I understand that you are somewhat of a monitor buff, what do you use them professionaly for?

And is there a reason why manufacturers seem to offer smaller (marginally) sRGB coverage? Doesn't seem that a few percent decreases the production costs. Or does it?
 
tbNB said:
Color banding was the big negative on this HP ZR2440w monitor. I posted some images on another thread and another user confirmed. Otherwise, it sounded pretty good.
Click to expand...

thanks both, but for now i will pass on that HP. Already difficult enough to decide between tried and tested screens like Dell u2412 and HP ZR24, let alone add a brand new dark horse in that equation :D
 
I could easily recommend Fujitsu's IPS displays but if you're in USA then those aren't available there.
 
Thanks, but neither they are here.

Anyone else experience with either or both the 2412m or hp zr24w?
 
According to what kind of work you want to do with these monitors, I have bad news for you.
My comment will sound out of place for some, but if you want to work, and I mean really WORK on your pc, then Dell 2412 is simply not good enough. (I won't judge other monitors because I only read about them, I am writing on a 2412 right now, and comparing it mostly to my Samsung 970p PVA monitor).

First of all the colors are indeed very good, the contrast also, and unless you need to do a lot of HQ photography editing and printing, you will be perfectly happy with this. I'm also a web designer so I don't need the wide gamut or a high quality calibrated monitor. What I need is text and graphics sharpness and a monitor I can work with for 8 hours a day.

Now, sharpness is the first flaw - because of the aggressive AG coating, black or grey text on white background is not very pleasant to look at for a long time, especially if you move your head closer to the screen the more tired you are, which most of us do. True that I don't see the AG when I move a bit away from the screen, but that's not acceptable in my opinion, and compared to older monitors its just unbelievable what LG did here.

The second major flaw is the LED flicker. Yes, it's that bad. You can't see it at 80% brightness or more, but that is totally unusable for normal work. The way LEDs work, the lower the brightness, the more flicker you get, and at a normal of 35% the screen flickers just like a 60Hz CRT.

Now I see some people stating that you can't see the flicker at all, but they're doing it wrong - you see flicker ONLY if you move your eyes around, NOT by staring at one spot looking for something that flickers, and moving your eyes is what you do most of the time.

On a brighter note - zr2440w review on Prad.de just went public today, and they specifically state that LEDs on that monitor have a 430Hz rate, with a 43% duty cycle on 140cd/m brightness (page 9), which comes out to be 185Hz. Now that's something worth mentioning, though AG problem is still there.

I'm so disappointed with u2412 I'm selling it and looking for something better.

Sorry for the long post, had to get it out of my system - I hate what companies are doing today, selling us cheap products for multimedia and calling it "pro", and the reviewers just go along with it.
 
nahero said:
According to what kind of work you want to do with these monitors, I have bad news for you.
My comment will sound out of place for some, but if you want to work, and I mean really WORK on your pc, then Dell 2412 is simply not good enough. (I won't judge other monitors because I only read about them, I am writing on a 2412 right now, and comparing it mostly to my Samsung 970p PVA monitor).

First of all the colors are indeed very good, the contrast also, and unless you need to do a lot of HQ photography editing and printing, you will be perfectly happy with this. I'm also a web designer so I don't need the wide gamut or a high quality calibrated monitor. What I need is text and graphics sharpness and a monitor I can work with for 8 hours a day.

Now, sharpness is the first flaw - because of the aggressive AG coating, black or grey text on white background is not very pleasant to look at for a long time, especially if you move your head closer to the screen the more tired you are, which most of us do. True that I don't see the AG when I move a bit away from the screen, but that's not acceptable in my opinion, and compared to older monitors its just unbelievable what LG did here.

The second major flaw is the LED flicker. Yes, it's that bad. You can't see it at 80% brightness or more, but that is totally unusable for normal work. The way LEDs work, the lower the brightness, the more flicker you get, and at a normal of 35% the screen flickers just like a 60Hz CRT.

Now I see some people stating that you can't see the flicker at all, but they're doing it wrong - you see flicker ONLY if you move your eyes around, NOT by staring at one spot looking for something that flickers, and moving your eyes is what you do most of the time.

On a brighter note - zr2440w review on Prad.de just went public today, and they specifically state that LEDs on that monitor have a 430Hz rate, with a 43% duty cycle on 140cd/m brightness (page 9), which comes out to be 185Hz. Now that's something worth mentioning, though AG problem is still there.

I'm so disappointed with u2412 I'm selling it and looking for something better.

Sorry for the long post, had to get it out of my system - I hate what companies are doing today, selling us cheap products for multimedia and calling it "pro", and the reviewers just go along with it.
Click to expand...

I have had a complelety differnt experience with my u2412m. I have brightness set to 54 and even after looking for it after reading your post I can not see any flicker, and I used to be very sensitive to CRT flicker when I used CRTs. I can not notice the AG coating unless I look for it, the text is very sharp. Also the U2412m is part of dell's Mainstream Ultrasharp line so they do not call it pro, that would be the U2410.
 
@nahero, all the things you hate about the U2412M are fixed in the Samsung S24A850, but the two/three inherited unwanted characteristics will be poor build quality and a 90% chance of excessive back-light bleed. It's also slightly more than sRGB gamut causing slight over-saturation.
 
bbordwell said:
I have had a complelety differnt experience with my u2412m. I have brightness set to 54 and even after looking for it after reading your post I can not see any flicker, and I used to be very sensitive to CRT flicker when I used CRTs. I can not notice the AG coating unless I look for it, the text is very sharp. Also the U2412m is part of dell's Mainstream Ultrasharp line so they do not call it pro, that would be the U2410.
Click to expand...

It's actually going to be a bit different from person to person because it is based on how the person's brain processes the information it receives from various inputs. In this case it is your eyes. This can explain why some people get headaches using a LCD monitor for a prolonged period of time whereas others do not. The flickering (whether from the backlight or A-FRC) can cause headache for some.

It is similar to when I was auditioning some audiophile speakers with a friend of mine several years ago. There were a few of us helping him choose speakers. One of person could not hear the difference between a pair of $800 JBL speakers and a pair of $7,000 B&W (Bowers & Wilkins) speakers. But the rest of us had no problems differentiating between those speakers. It was literally a difference between day and night.
 
I'm an industrial designer and I've been using the ZR24w for an average of 8-12hrs a day at work and have had no complaints. I am still on my Dell 2407 at home and also haven't had any major complaints with it.
 
@bbordwell
Well frankly it's good that you don't, means you got yourself a great lcd for peanuts, but I just can't see how that's possible. In a few words, I was trying to say that if you are pro or a "semi-pro", and seeing things on a computer screen is what you do for a living, there is a big chance you'll be very disappointed in this one.

@10e
That's great news, but then I missed the part about the LEDs in the discussion - is it really flicker free? If so, Jansma you can take that one into consideration too, don't be put off by the price - I learned the hard way that I shouldn't try to pay less money for something I NEED for work.
 
nahero said:
According to what kind of work you want to do with these monitors, I have bad news for you.
My comment will sound out of place for some, but if you want to work, and I mean really WORK on your pc, then Dell 2412 is simply not good enough. (I won't judge other monitors because I only read about them, I am writing on a 2412 right now, and comparing it mostly to my Samsung 970p PVA monitor).

First of all the colors are indeed very good, the contrast also, and unless you need to do a lot of HQ photography editing and printing, you will be perfectly happy with this. I'm also a web designer so I don't need the wide gamut or a high quality calibrated monitor. What I need is text and graphics sharpness and a monitor I can work with for 8 hours a day.

Now, sharpness is the first flaw - because of the aggressive AG coating, black or grey text on white background is not very pleasant to look at for a long time, especially if you move your head closer to the screen the more tired you are, which most of us do. True that I don't see the AG when I move a bit away from the screen, but that's not acceptable in my opinion, and compared to older monitors its just unbelievable what LG did here.

The second major flaw is the LED flicker. Yes, it's that bad. You can't see it at 80% brightness or more, but that is totally unusable for normal work. The way LEDs work, the lower the brightness, the more flicker you get, and at a normal of 35% the screen flickers just like a 60Hz CRT.

Now I see some people stating that you can't see the flicker at all, but they're doing it wrong - you see flicker ONLY if you move your eyes around, NOT by staring at one spot looking for something that flickers, and moving your eyes is what you do most of the time.

On a brighter note - zr2440w review on Prad.de just went public today, and they specifically state that LEDs on that monitor have a 430Hz rate, with a 43% duty cycle on 140cd/m brightness (page 9), which comes out to be 185Hz. Now that's something worth mentioning, though AG problem is still there.

I'm so disappointed with u2412 I'm selling it and looking for something better.

Sorry for the long post, had to get it out of my system - I hate what companies are doing today, selling us cheap products for multimedia and calling it "pro", and the reviewers just go along with it.
Click to expand...

Thanks man for your elaborate comment!

But I guess that the flaws you mention apply for most if not all LCD/LED screens?

I understood that the 2412m actually has much less aggressive AG coating, than for example the HP ZR24w. So also that one should not be suitable then.
I have to say though, one of my colleagues works on a ZR22w and I can't really say the coating is creating the issue you described. Are the ZR24w and 22w different apart from size then?

LED flicker: that would indeed apply to all screens with LED backlighting and not with the ZR24w (which i think has CCFL backlighting)?
 
Well, I went through several user reviews, but basically all non-glossy IPS panels appear to have simular AG coating issues that bug some of its users, but a relevatively small percentage.

The 2412m actually should have a less intrusive coating than the ZR24, and its lil 22" sister has the same and in any case doesn't bug me (i borrowed it today from my colleague purposely to check it out :p )
 
The AG coating is just as grainy on all matte IPS, the only exceptions are allegedly the 23" AOC according to TFT Central and Flat Panels HD.
 
Jansma said:
Well, I went through several user reviews, but basically all non-glossy IPS panels appear to have simular AG coating issues that bug some of its users, but a relevatively small percentage.

The 2412m actually should have a less intrusive coating than the ZR24, and its lil 22" sister has the same and in any case doesn't bug me (i borrowed it today from my colleague purposely to check it out :p )
Click to expand...

They are pretty much the same. My NEC LCD2490WUXi2-BK has the same panel as the ZR24W and the AG coating is almost exactly the same as the U2412M.
 
Yeah, I figured something like that. Some seem to hate it, but nothing is more annoying than a glossy screen that mirrors you and all lightsources beside/behind you.

It is funny, I remember that when CRTs were still booming, an anti reflective coating was a premium quality of pro screens.

Concerning the LED flicker. Is that comparable to the CCL flicker reports that many CCL displays seem to display?
 
All of the above have LG panels inside, and therefore the same 3H AG coating. A friend of mine has zr30w and the coating seems a little lighter than on u2412, but I should put them side by side to be sure.
LED flicker doesn't have to be visible on every screen, 10e says its not visible on Samsung SA850, but on u2412 it is, and no one said nothing about the zr2440 yet.
I used Samsung 970p for years, PVA panel with CCFL, and there is absolutely nothing bad I can say about that screen, except I need something bigger than 5:4 19".
 
well, the problem is that it seems impossible these days to find nearly flawless screens. Because of the panel lottery you can have one or a few mellons before you get one you are happy with. The only screen I ever found only praise for was the NEC 2490wUxi, but even that one seem to have QC issues.

The only thing i know is that you better go with a manufacturer with decent hardware and a+ service and exchange policy. So you easily arrive to Dell and in lesser extend HP if you want some certainty.
 
I recommend that you spend the extra cash and get the LP2475w over either of those monitors. I own both the ZR2440w and LP2475w and the color on the LP2475w is an improvement by leaps and bounds. IMHO, its worth the additional $100.
 
Jansma said:
Yeah, I figured something like that. Some seem to hate it, but nothing is more annoying than a glossy screen that mirrors you and all lightsources beside/behind you.

It is funny, I remember that when CRTs were still booming, an anti reflective coating was a premium quality of pro screens.
Click to expand...

I'm still using CRTs (Iiyama, 20" Vision Master x2) and when I compare my displays to LCDs I can tell that they do have aggressive AG coating. I would describe CRTs in general as being semi-glossy, akin to the Samsung S24A850 (PLS) which I have also looked at and which unfortunately is not an option due to the horrible build-quality.

My work also revolves around digital design (web, video games and print), as well as video (After Effects) and 3D modelling. I have zero complaints about my CRTs and intend to keep using them until OLED/QLED displays become a realistic replacement option.

Like you I'm torn between the ZR24(40)w and U2412M, but if I had to pick one right now I'd go with the former, as true 8-bit is a benefit and colour tinting (yellowish whites, etc.) have been reported with the Dell, possibly a side-effect of the AFC.
 
Jansma said:
well, the problem is that it seems impossible these days to find nearly flawless screens. Because of the panel lottery you can have one or a few mellons before you get one you are happy with. The only screen I ever found only praise for was the NEC 2490wUxi, but even that one seem to have QC issues.

The only thing i know is that you better go with a manufacturer with decent hardware and a+ service and exchange policy. So you easily arrive to Dell and in lesser extend HP if you want some certainty.
Click to expand...

That's par for the course with any monitor, and any panel manufacturer. Users around here will excuse Samsung but not LG. I've had many more issues with Samsung and AUO panels than LG panels and I've had far more LG panels than the other two.

It is best to buy a screen with a good warranty/service policy regardless of the manufacturer.


AuxNuke said:
I recommend that you spend the extra cash and get the LP2475w over either of those monitors. I own both the ZR2440w and LP2475w and the color on the LP2475w is an improvement by leaps and bounds. IMHO, its worth the additional $100.
Click to expand...

LP2475W is worse than the U2410 for Jansma's needs, as it has no useful sRGB mode and it is also wide gamut, and it is the same panel.

Unless Jansma's working in color managed programs the LP2475W will look over-saturated and incorrect.

Elledan said:
I'm still using CRTs (Iiyama, 20" Vision Master x2) and when I compare my displays to LCDs I can tell that they do have aggressive AG coating. I would describe CRTs in general as being semi-glossy, akin to the Samsung S24A850 (PLS) which I have also looked at and which unfortunately is not an option due to the horrible build-quality.

My work also revolves around digital design (web, video games and print), as well as video (After Effects) and 3D modelling. I have zero complaints about my CRTs and intend to keep using them until OLED/QLED displays become a realistic replacement option.

Like you I'm torn between the ZR24(40)w and U2412M, but if I had to pick one right now I'd go with the former, as true 8-bit is a benefit and colour tinting (yellowish whites, etc.) have been reported with the Dell, possibly a side-effect of the AFC.
Click to expand...

I would say the semi-gloss coating of the PLS panels is less reflective than a CRT but noticeably less grainy than the current crop of 24" panels from LG. It is a very good in-between/middle ground.

Unfortunately we won't know if there will be a Samsung A970/B970 version of the 24" as those upcoming screens look far better built.

The yellowing is usually due to excess pressure on the panel from the frame. The FRC effects are almost impossible to see on the U2412M and are indistinguishable from the pixel inversion. I've had users send me test images that banded on TN screens and when viewed on the U2412M, there was no banding that I could see.

Only the S24A850 showed me some strange effects from FRC. Occasionally there were waves going down the screen on light pastel colors on that panel, almost like a repeated wave of noise. The 27" with 8-bit doesn't suffer from that.
 
If you could somehow stretch the budget a bit more, I'd recommend the NEC P241W, it's similar to the PA241W, but is sRGB instead of wide gamut, also a bit cheaper. You might be able to find a refurbished NEC 2490WUXi2 for a good price also. NEC's RMA policy for refurbished displays is excellent.
 
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