LGs 55 inch OLED TV

Snowdog said:
WOLED is probably a better designation for what you mean.

RGBW is a pentile arrangement used more commonly in LCDs for increased efficiency.
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WOLED is ambiguous as it makes people think of standard triplet subpixels which as filtered OLED displaying white is very inefficient. Adding a fourth white subpixel that handles most of the luminance component is a free way to increase efficiency by around 60% without decreasing image quality like it does in RGBW LCD.

Snowdog said:
IMO WOLED is better than the traditional colored OLEDs because it solves the issues with different color chemistry, burning out at different rates.
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The concern is that RGBW OLED would be less efficient and stable than patterned emitters. At that point it would be sure to lose appeal to you.

Snowdog said:
I have seen a Samsung Galaxy Phone with OLED screen burn in on youtube.

He cycled all the colors and it was clear the burn in was only on the blue elements. So Samsung still has problem with Blue lifetime.
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It also indicates that the red and green emitters are quite stable. The Super AMOLED screens have been colorimetrically tested and have been shown to have very saturated primaries - even the blue is saturated in excess of sRGB. As I mentioned before, light blue emitters are actually acceptably efficient and could be implemented to produce a fairly stable white emission in a Red-Green-Light Blue- Deep blue quad. The trade-offs would be a reduction in the pixel aperture ratio and a reduction in pixel density, something undesirable with the high PPI requirement of mobile screens.


Snowdog said:
A consistent and longer life white OLED with color filters (mature tech) almost certainly means more consistent wear and better lifetime.
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This presupposes (erroneously from my reading) that WOLED reaches remotely close to the lifetime of patterned emitters. Without having the lifetimes for each method on hand, we can't mount a real argument for either of them.
 
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Whoisthisreally said:
WOLED is ambiguous as it makes people think of standard triplet subpixels which as filtered OLED displaying white is very inefficient.
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That is what they should think, because that is what WOLED is, standard triplet with RGB filters. Efficiency is undetermined.

If it is WOLED + RGBW Pentile you need to state both to be clear. Though some marketing name would probably be used.


Adding a fourth white subpixel that handles most of the luminance component is a free way to increase efficiency by around 60% without decreasing image quality like it does in RGBW LCD.
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Why do you think this would decrease image quality in RGBW LCD but not RGBW WOLED?
 
Snowdog said:
That is what they should think, because that is what WOLED is, standard triplet with RGB filters. Efficiency is undetermined.

If it is WOLED + RGBW Pentile you need to state both to be clear. Though some marketing name would probably be used.


Why do you think this would decrease image quality in RGBW LCD but not RGBW WOLED?
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Because to increase efficiency using RGBW in LCD involves activating both the triplet and unfiltered white subpixel in order to maximise brightness. This in turn reduces the saturation of the primaries in a system of trading saturation for efficiency.

By contrast, OLED is able to conserve energy when subpixels are turned off. In RGBW OLED you would deactivate the inefficient triplet and excite the efficient white subpixel when displaying the native white. When colour is needed the triplet can be excited to low levels and the white pixel reduced slightly. This is effective as most images are low in saturation, making the most of the white subpixel. Only when a completely saturated primary colour is needed, the white subpixel will be deactivated and the coloured subpixel will activate completely. With an appropriate driving scheme this allows a major increase in efficiency without compromising gamut like in LCD.
 
Whoisthisreally said:
Because to increase efficiency using RGBW in LCD involves activating both the triplet and unfiltered white subpixel in order to maximise brightness. This in turn reduces the saturation of the primaries in a system of trading saturation for efficiency.

By contrast, OLED is able to conserve energy when subpixels are turned off. In RGBW OLED you would deactivate the inefficient triplet and excite the efficient white subpixel when displaying the native white. When colour is needed the triplet can be excited to low levels and the white pixel reduced slightly. This is effective as most images are low in saturation, making the most of the white subpixel. Only when a completely saturated primary colour is needed, the white subpixel will be deactivated and the coloured subpixel will activate completely. With an appropriate driving scheme this allows a major increase in efficiency without compromising gamut like in LCD.
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For LCD you are going to do this mainly when displaying white (or other bright shades close to it), in which case "saturation" is irrelevant, so you activating the triplets and white at the same time makes sense and does not compromise anything.

Other times when you don't need super bright white (or off white shades) you can operate much like OLED and dim white and gain saturation.

You haven't made a case here at all. It is essentially the same thing, except for the ability to save more power on OLED displaying white while shutting down the triad.

In both cases the image quality issues are similar and depend on the quality of the mixing algorithm.
 
When displaying white or light tones in RGBW LCD you would be activating both the triplet and the white as you mentioned. In all colour shades this would in effect be duplicating the lightness component of the colour, resulting in desaturation. In order to maintain saturation you would have to reduce lightness by reducing one or two of the mixing colours and/or the white subpixel, resulting in less brightness and overall pixel area transmitting light compared to RGB LCD as four subpixels will each occupy a smaller area.

Furthermore, there would be issues involving the white point being composed of the RGB + W which I think would cause non-linearity in the display. Under the scheme of turning off W when displaying a completely saturated primary, the combined luminance of each primary colour would not add up to the luminance of white.
 
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Whoisthisreally said:
Furthermore, there would be issues involving the white point being composed of the RGB + W which I think would cause non-linearity in the display. Under the scheme of turning off W when displaying a completely saturated primary, the combined luminance of each primary colour would not add up to the luminance of white.
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Newsflash. To adjust white balance required when calibrating. You will need to mix color triads in with White on OLED as well. Check any TV out there, they all have color temperature settings. How do you think you achieve that with the color triad off, displaying white? The reality is your OLED triad will likely always be on unless the whole pixel is black.

The issues are, more less, equivalent. You need good mixing algorithms on either side to keep RGBW it working well.
 
Snowdog said:
Newsflash. To adjust white balance required when calibrating. You will need to mix color triads in with White on OLED as well. Check any TV out there, they all have color temperature settings. How do you think you achieve that with the color triad off, displaying white?
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You make a good point, as I have already noted:


Whoisthisreally said:
It is claimed that RGBW eliminates differential aging - but this is conditional to the device displaying the white emitter's native white point. Any attempt at correction of the white point would involve activation of the colour filtered subpixels thereby potentially causing uneven wear when displaying white.
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Snowdog said:
The reality is your OLED triad will likely always be on unless the whole pixel is black.

The issues are, more less, equivalent. You need good mixing algorithms on either side to keep RGBW it working well.
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There is an important difference: In RGBW OLED, total luminance is conserved; W emits the neutral luminance necessary for the colour, and RGB emit saturated luminance. RGB and W are essentially antagonistic.

In RGBW LCD, total luminance is not conserved. RGB and W emit together to significantly increase the white luminance at the expense of saturation. It is found in a number of mobile devices where efficiency is required. There are a number of schemes that attempt to produce the higher luminance while retaining colour saturation, but I don't care to research them.

link "System considerations for RGBW OLED displays"
 
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As I said. Good mixing algorithms are key, your link backs that up.

For OLED to save power and panel life, you want a higher WMR (white mix ratio), but for higher image quality, you want a lower WMR.

So even with OLED RGBW is a tradeoff between power/panel life savings and image quality.

But I have no problem with WOLED which I think is a good idea, or full 4 Pixel RGBW which might help mitigate some other OLED issues (high power draw on white).

I would only have a problem if it is Pentile arrangement which I think sucks.
 
@Snowdog, I'm curious as to why you think that WOLED isn't suitable for PC displays? If the lifespan of a WOLED display is 100,000 hours, why'd it be any concern whether static elements are being displayed? It's not like you'll be using the same monitor for 11+ years, right? :)
 
Elledan said:
@Snowdog, I'm curious as to why you think that WOLED isn't suitable for PC displays? If the lifespan of a WOLED display is 100,000 hours, why'd it be any concern whether static elements are being displayed? It's not like you'll be using the same monitor for 11+ years, right? :)
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History suggests skepticism of OLED durability is warranted. It remains to be seen how durable WOLED is, but so far all OLEDs have been extremely susceptible to burn in.

I know you have always had an extremely Pollyanna view of OLED durability, first saying OLED was immune to burn-in, then claiming it was only the old Sony OLEDs had this problem, and that new generations fixed this. You are always ready to belief OLED burn-in is fixed, but you have been completely wrong about this at every turn. You still haven't learned skepticism?

Even the very latest Samsung SAMOLED Plus in the Galaxy SII is just the same high tendency to burn in.

WOLED has the potential to mitigate this somewhat by removing the Blue OLED weak link, but it won't eliminate burn in and desktop monitors have the most abusive usage pattern, that will prove the ultimate stress generator for this type of technology.

So it makes sense to start with Phones/TVs that are less harsh for burn-in.

We will have some idea of WOLED durability sometime after a good number hit the market and get some use/abuse.
 
Vega said:
$10,000? You might want to add a zero to that. Large OLED TV's and computer monitors are still years away from becoming affordable IMO.
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Sorry, but what the fuck do you know?

I have been following OLED for a while, development takes time. But from what I have seen of last year, especially from korean sources that claim samsung and LG is ready to invest big time in it, the coming of OLED display for smartphones, there's no doubt in my mind they are coming. The 55 inch display is rumoured to cost around 10,000 btw, the author is right.
 
With Vita release I guess we will know soon how good technology is for gaming, and in few months we will see how are burn issues.
 
Michaelius said:
With Vita release I guess we will know soon how good technology is for gaming, and in few months we will see how are burn issues.
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I don't see a portable game machine being any more of a burn in challenge than smart phones and we are already getting reports on the Galaxy S2, burning in.

Vita is the same generation screen technology.
 
I was hoping for more like 4-5 grands on this one. I guess 2014 is earliest when we might see OLED tv or monitor with resonable size <1000$
 
Snowdog said:
we are already getting reports on the Galaxy S2, burning in.
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I had an opportunity to inspect an S2 that had been on display for several months. There was IR in areas that were normally an orange colour, so all three emitters are capable of burn-in when pushed hard, not just blue.
 
Whoisthisreally said:
I had an opportunity to inspect an S2 that had been on display for several months. There was IR in areas that were normally an orange colour, so all three emitters are capable of burn-in when pushed hard, not just blue.
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Yes, they can all burn, but blue is weakest in a normal OLED R,G,B array.

The guy with a Galaxy S on youtube with the burn in was white pads for the unlock screen.

Since they were white they would be roughly equal RGB. When he cycled colors it was clear that only Blue had burned in on his. Blue is the weakest link.

I notice now that Samsung has also announced it's 55" OLED at CES, aimed for the end of 2012. No details on tech, but I assume this is standard Samsung R, G, B, OLED (with weak blue).

I think LG/Samsung want the other guy to announce a price first so they can react to it.

No pricing yet.
 
No, there isn't a "backlight". Its individual RGB LEDs and nothing else. Its pretty much the only interesting thing to come out of CES.
 
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tommye said:
No, there isn't a "backlight". Its individual RGB LEDs and nothing else. Its pretty much the only interesting thing to come out of CES.
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Sounds pretty boss. I always wondered why no one simply made a TV out of a full array of miniature classic RGB LED's. At least we know those last a while. This should be on par with OLED, these LED's can also turn off completely so the contrast ratio should be about close.
 
quantum112 said:
Sounds pretty boss. I always wondered why no one simply made a TV out of a full array of miniature classic RGB LED's. At least we know those last a while. This should be on par with OLED, these LED's can also turn off completely so the contrast ratio should be about close.
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I never wondered. It would cost a fortune. Even if each individual LED only cost a penny, you need 6 Million of them. That's still $60 000.

Last I checked they were more than a penny each.
 
Snowdog said:
I never wondered. It would cost a fortune. Even if each individual LED only cost a penny, you need 6 Million of them. That's still $60 000.

Last I checked they were more than a penny each.
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I thought the same thing when local dimming came out. If you shrink the dimming zones to one pixel then you would have a great display, but the cost will not allow it.

Another question is can you calibrate LEDs accurately?
 
LG Oled TV hands on

http://www.techradar.com/news/television/tv/hands-on-lg-55em960v-oled-tv-review-1055535

At one end of the light spectrum the screen presents black colours of a richness, intensity and purity that just hasn't been seen before on a flat-panel TV - not even Pioneer's legendary KURO plasmas.

Yet within the same frame you've got ultra-pure, perfectly defined whites and a dizzying array of colour tones in between.
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Then there's the image's sharpness. The HD footage on show actually looks more akin to 4k-resolution fare so pure its presentation; so free is it of LCD's usual motion blur; and so incredibly rich are the set's shadow detail levels.
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Samsung vs LG OLED TV comparison - no ghosting or blurring in either case
http://www.digitalversus.com/duels-...966/lg-woled-tv-vs-samsung-oled-tv-ap828.html


and

Panasonic: We ARE working on a big OLED TV
http://www.techradar.com/news/television/panasonic-we-are-working-on-a-big-oled-tv-1053782


When asked about the next-gen technologies, president Fumio Ohtsubo insisted that an OLED screen would be going on sale at a similar time to the Korean manufacturers' offerings.

"Unfortunately we weren't able to show one at the show this time, but we are certainly developing it," he told reporters at a briefing in Las Vegas.

"I can't say exactly when, but if Samsung and LG put theirs out this year we will try and make sure we are not too late."
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With 3-4 companies jostling to bring sets out, I don't think high prices will remain for long
 
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Elledan said:
Waiting for news on OLED PC monitors now :)
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http://www.oled-info.com/amtran-considers-oled-tv-production-waits-see-markets-reaction-lg

Digitimes reports that Amtran Technologie's CEO says that the company is interested to see the market response to LG's 55" OLED TV. Amtran does not rule out the possibility of producing OLED TVs.

Amtran is actually an OEM monitor display producer (they supply LCD monitors to Apple) - and are focused on 23" and 27" monitors. It may be that the actually mean to start producing OLED monitors and not OLED TVs
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I wonder what the plasma and LCD TV market will look like in 2014 and 2015, greatly diminished (?), and how everything will play itself out.
 
Once these babies hit the 3k - 4k price range I am picking one up!

Have had my 46" Samsung 1080P LCD since 2007 and lately been wanting to upgrade to a 55"+ size screen, so it will be great timing if these new OLED displays go mainstream by early 2013.
 
SJetski71 said:
I wonder what the plasma and LCD TV market will look like in 2014 and 2015, greatly diminished (?), and how everything will play itself out.
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In 2015 LCD's will be crappy TN panels made on old manufacturing equipment. They'll bundle Blu Ray players with them for $199 for a 42".
 
http://www.oled-display.net/samsung-55-inch-super-oled-tv-will-be-much-cheaper-than-8-000-dollar/

Today we spoke with Samsung Electronics Austria-Switzerland-Slovenia about the showcased 55 inch Super-Oled-Tv at CES-2012. Samsung is ready for production and they can mass produce more than 48.000 pieces per month like LG-Electronic.
Samsung want to roll out the device worldwide before LG Electronics 55 inch WOLED. Sure we ask also for the price for that amazing device!

Samsung answers:

The price of the 55 inch Super-OLED-Tv will be much cheaper than 8.000.- Dollar. It will be a little bit higher than the premium LED-Tv/Plasma-Tv devices from Samsung.
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Wow, lots of awesome news... I really hope that these TVs can be made this cheap. Even around $2,000 a pop they should sell like hotcakes at 55".

Also awesome news on the Amtran part :) Apple has been talking about introducing high-res displays to their systems... they could be thinking of adding OLED displays to their line-up.
 
Corvette said:
In 2015 LCD's will be crappy TN panels made on old manufacturing equipment. They'll bundle Blu Ray players with them for $199 for a 42".
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For years the biggest TN panel, available to consumers at least, was a 28". Imho it don't think that'll change anytime soon with new tech just over the horizon, but who knows right?

Your statement is probably true, but i'm guessing they'll use the commodity grade VA panels currently being produced in 'nearly' every panel factory known to mankind :D

Can't wait till all of this new display tech becomes mainstream and ultra-affordable.
 
Corvette said:
In 2015 LCD's will be crappy TN panels made on old manufacturing equipment. They'll bundle Blu Ray players with them for $199 for a 42".
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I do not believe you can make a TN panel larger than 28" without the the gamma shift completely ruining the image at the top and bottom and the limited viewing angles completely ruining the image on the sides. Even the unwashed masses of Walmartians would notice those problems.
 
SJetski71 said:
For years the biggest TN panel, available to consumers at least, was a 28". Imho it don't think that'll change anytime soon with new tech just over the horizon, but who knows right?

Your statement is probably true, but i'm guessing they'll use the commodity grade VA panels currently being produced in 'nearly' every panel factory known to mankind :D

Can't wait till all of this new display tech becomes mainstream and ultra-affordable.
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You're both right. I haven't had much in person time with a TN and forgot about viewing angles. Same idea, just with real junky VA panels. People will be seeing Abe Lincoln and the Virgin Mary in the backlight bleed, but they won't care. It'll end up in a kid's room for the XBOX 720 :)
 
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