SWTOR = another Hero On A Rail game?

NoEcho

NoEcho

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SW/TOR has some great hype going. I love the SF genre (still play AO) so I've been interested in SW/TOR. But there's been a trend of dummification in online games over the past couple years, the Hero On A Rail syndrome (HOAR hereinafter): with the HOAR system you are the lone hero, or massively important to the game despite the fact that you just showed up and are leveling up by trapping butterflies or killing rats or fedexing menus to random map points. In the HOAR system you may have beautiful vistas all around but you can't really progress, and often can't even move, unless you go in the one direction the developers intended... you're on a rail. There is no real diversity, variability, open endedness, credible randomness or exciting alternative worldliness... there are scripted events {quests!} that you must complete to progress, your peers must complete for their progress and a short bus seven year old can beat you at because he has more time (home schooling and all). The reviews I've read seem to indicate the game suffers from HOAR design.
 
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Yah, I can search too. But a) it irritates me when someone decrees theirs is the 'official [whatever] thread' - what gives them the authority?, and b) this thread is about a specific aspect of that game and MMORPGs in general.
 
Well, that is the type of game SWTOR is. I personally love it. There is diversity, but you basically follow the missions and level up with the story line. The game is like having 8 KOTORs in one, which is amazing to me. Then again, I don't game for hours on end and I'm not worried about power leveling or any of that nonsense. I'm not sure what style of game you are looking for but it doesn't feel like it's "suffering" from anything to me. I haven't had this much fun in an MMO in a LONG time. :) :)
 
Appa said:
Well, that is the type of game SWTOR is. I personally love it. There is diversity, but you basically follow the missions and level up with the story line. The game is like having 8 KOTORs in one, which is amazing to me. Then again, I don't game for hours on end and I'm not worried about power leveling or any of that nonsense. I'm not sure what style of game you are looking for but it doesn't feel like it's "suffering" from anything to me. I haven't had this much fun in an MMO in a LONG time. :) :)
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If it's more like a single player game then that actually raises my interest personally. Your descriptive there got my attention. Do tell.
 
NoEcho said:
Yah, I can search too. But a) it irritates me when someone decrees theirs is the 'official [whatever] thread' - what gives them the authority?, and b) this thread is about a specific aspect of that game and MMORPGs in general.
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Agreed.

On topic, I hear what you're saying. I have that issue with most games now, but I understand why it needs to be done (minus Skyrim).
 
Q-BZ said:
If it's more like a single player game then that actually raises my interest personally. Your descriptive there got my attention. Do tell.
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With the exception of Heroic quests (which say 2+ or 4 people required) the game can be played solo so far (I'm level 36 out of 50). You gain companions as you progress through the game that can help you in different ways. If you're a tank you can make use of healing companion or as DPS I can make use of tank companion. It's actually quite refreshing to be able to progress without the need for someone else and to be able to choose to group when I want to do a Flashpoint (dungeon) or a group quest.
 
NoEcho said:
Yah, I can search too. But a) it irritates me when someone decrees theirs is the 'official [whatever] thread' - what gives them the authority?, and b) this thread is about a specific aspect of that game and MMORPGs in general.
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So you haven't play SWTOR I take it? Why are you commenting on it then?
 
It's suffers from WoW clone syndrome. The game copies nearly everything from WoW down to even the font colors and adds almost nothing new over WoW, other than voice acting which is overused and overrated anyways.
 
sekira05 said:
It's suffers from WoW clone syndrome. The game copies nearly everything from WoW down to even the font colors and adds almost nothing new over WoW, other than voice acting which is overused and overrated anyways.
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You are completley correct. I remember in wow how I would jump in my spaceship and explore the 17 planets. Yup that was fun. Oh I also remember in wow how I used to have my companion (hell hound) craft for me and fight by my side. Good times. Oh and the space combat in wow was unforgettable. I could go on and on about how similar these titles are.
 
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sekira05 said:
It's suffers from WoW clone syndrome. The game copies nearly everything from WoW down to even the font colors and adds almost nothing new over WoW, other than voice acting which is overused and overrated anyways.
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And WoW copied EQ, DAoC, AC, etc...etc...

SW:ToR uses an established chat system that has been in place since the very first MMO. The voice acting is a very welcomed change of pace and adds a layer of immersivness not found in the majority of other MMOs; you have the option of skipping the.voice acting as well so that shouldnt really be a major complaint.

What SW:ToR does do well is it has taken the best of other MMOs and refined it into their own product and have done an excellent job on it, just as WoW did before it. If you remember the WoW release the same complaints were levied at WoW since EQ2 was released at the same time. Look how well that turned out for them. The MMO genre doesnt want or need groundbreaking style; what the genre thrives on is simple tweaking to the core mechanics and adding something new and that is what Bioware has done. They have added an innovative crafting system, fully voiced quests, intelligent compaions, and a pretty decent PvP system.

Is there work to be done? Sure, but your complaints arent one of them.
 
Q-BZ said:
If it's more like a single player game then that actually raises my interest personally. Your descriptive there got my attention. Do tell.
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You have story quests that you do independent of anyone elses actions. Doesn't matter if 50 others are doing the same quest, the people you need to talk to, objects you need to collect, the baddies to kill will all be there for you. You gain items and XP in enough quanity to level and continue on to the next quest without needing to grind or farm between them. Outside of other people running around and doing their own thing it can play entirely solo, without punishment.
 
Climber said:
And WoW copied EQ, DAoC, AC, etc...etc...

SW:ToR uses an established chat system that has been in place since the very first MMO. The voice acting is a very welcomed change of pace and adds a layer of immersivness not found in the majority of other MMOs; you have the option of skipping the.voice acting as well so that shouldnt really be a major complaint.

What SW:ToR does do well is it has taken the best of other MMOs and refined it into their own product and have done an excellent job on it, just as WoW did before it. If you remember the WoW release the same complaints were levied at WoW since EQ2 was released at the same time. Look how well that turned out for them. The MMO genre doesnt want or need groundbreaking style; what the genre thrives on is simple tweaking to the core mechanics and adding something new and that is what Bioware has done. They have added an innovative crafting system, fully voiced quests, intelligent compaions, and a pretty decent PvP system.

Is there work to be done? Sure, but your complaints arent one of them.
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lol....

I played WoW during beta and at release and not once did I hear any complaints about it being like EQ2 or any MMO before it. In fact, It played nothing like any MMO I had played before it.

The same cannot be said about SWTOR though because it feels and plays just like WoW but just not as good as a game over 7 years old.

Doh!

You must be on crack if you think the crafting system or companions (pets) are anything new and innovative.
 
sekira05 said:
It's suffers from WoW clone syndrome. The game copies nearly everything from WoW down to even the font colors and adds almost nothing new over WoW, other than voice acting which is overused and overrated anyways.
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Indeed sir. Sadly mmos have become cash cows. They may not be successful after release.. But the game sells millions which is more then the average game. And since there was millions of suckers that paid 60$ for an MMO... ( Yes 60$ for an MMO ). Its nothing but profit for EA. Sadly all mmo suck now and are designed for casual people.
 
sekira05 said:
I played WoW during beta and at release and not once did I hear any complaints about it being like EQ2 or any MMO before it.
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MMO's prior to WOW weren't a mainstream thing, and didn't have the exposure that WOW has to a wide audience. Nobody is going to say one game copied another if they had never played MMO's before. I was in WOW beta, but had never played any other MMO's so I sure couldn't troll chat with WOW is a copy of EQ, because I had never played it to know to begin with. I mean hell at this point who hasn't played WOW? Amish folks and Taliban?

If it ain't broke then don't fix it. I can't believe I'm saying this, but WOW has done some things right, and it's a great formula to follow with a new MMO. It also helps to kind of ease the people who don't want WOW any more into a new MMO without being overwhelmed. The games share enough similarities where practically any former WOW player can pick it up and play it.
 
sekira05 said:
lol....

I played WoW during beta and at release and not once did I hear any complaints about it being like EQ2 or any MMO before it. In fact, It played nothing like any MMO I had played before it.

The same cannot be said about SWTOR though because it feels and plays just like WoW but just not as good as a game over 7 years old.

Doh!

You must be on crack if you think the crafting system or companions (pets) are anything new and innovative.
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Never once did i say it was like EQ2, but it is almost identical to MMOs before it. The complaint in regards to wow was the cartoony graphics, blatant rip off of EQ DAoC AC etc...When EQ2 was releases it was universally praised for its graphics and technological advances but as it.crashed and burned it was WoW with its simple graphics, compelling gameplay, and their attention to Warcraft lore that drew people in. This is pretty much the same approach Bioware is taking with SW:ToR. Keep it simple and keep the story and lore at the forefront. Get people hooked on their characters and flesh out the rest later and in this regards i think they have done very well.

As far as the companions go they are better and more intelligent than the mercs.from.GW and yes i find the crafting a welcome addition to the MMO genre. I dont know of another western MMO that does it that way.
 
So what I'm hearing is that it's HOAR(instanced). HOARI. I guess it's more credible that you are admiral of your bathtub than of all seven seas but it still seems disconnected from the old "you earn your rep and your gear" mode that made MMORPGs immersive and believable in the past.
 
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Crafting in Star Wars Galaxies was the best there ever was. You will hardly find anyone who played SWG and did crafting to say otherwise. You had diversity, you had randomness, you had truly unique items you could make and even put your brandname/stamp on. No other MMO has ever done that. I played TOR beta, and I am still on the fence on whether I am going to buy it or not. But the crafting in TOR was good for those who don't really want to bother with it, but it leaves a lot to be desired. I just don't understand why no one has bothered to do crafting in the only way that makes it fun, and that was SWG, period.

But yeah, TOR is pretty much a Hero on rails game. I want a sandbox game, but I know that it's just not in the cards anymore (except EVE Online which I still play) because most people don't want anything interesting, they just want a paint by numbers game that gives them cookies for doing basic things.

ps, I am a big KOTOR and SW fan, so I will most likely buy this game and play it, but only because I like MMO's and there just isn't any out there that is scifi based. Everything is god damn orcs and dragons and shit. Now, if they make Skyrim into an MMO, then I will be all over it, but everything else looks like the type of shit that the shortbus people like. No thanks.
 
sekira05 said:
lol....

I played WoW during beta and at release and not once did I hear any complaints about it being like EQ2 or any MMO before it. In fact, It played nothing like any MMO I had played before it.

The same cannot be said about SWTOR though because it feels and plays just like WoW but just not as good as a game over 7 years old.

Doh!

You must be on crack if you think the crafting system or companions (pets) are anything new and innovative.
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You can argue sense all you want, but at the end of the day it's a Starwars MMO, and those rose colored glasses overcome a legion of people who eat up mediocre (like episodes 1, 2 and 3).
 
sekira05 said:
I played WoW during beta and at release and not once did I hear any complaints about it being like EQ2 or any MMO before it. In fact, It played nothing like any MMO I had played before it.
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And I heard lots of people comparing it to EQ1 (not 2 since it came out around the same time ...) It's really easy to say "I heard this and that" it doesn't mean it's a fact.

Please tell me how WoW Classic played like nothing before it. Don't worry, I'll wait.

To me, it was the same thing as EQ1. Although it had a bunch of bugs, server crashes, unviable classes etc. it had a developed, interesting storyline (it helps that it was based on an existing, well known universe from a well known game company) and was quite polished overall for an MMO.

In my opinion WoW didn't start to distance itself from other MMOs and really innovate until TBC. And they continued that trend with WOTLK and Cataclysm which explains why their subs kept going up until recently. But still, the core is the same as previous MMOs.
 
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Simple solution for your complaint, dont like it dont play it, there was that so hard? seriously you really think every game released is going to appeal to everyone? then you are pretty delusional, also the whole it copied from WoW thing is beaten like a dead horse, WoW copied from EQ, EQ copied from UO and UO copied from MUDs and MUDs copied from pen and paper D&D, D&D copied from Written Lord of the Rings.I have to say i for one am enjoying the game, its fun i could care less about all the BS on the official forums, i play it and enjoy it for what it is.
 
I've been wanting to try it personally. I for some reason I like MMO's in short doses. My hesitation is the $60.00 + sub fee. If your going to charge me $15/month, don't stick me for $60.00 too. Especially a game where it's biggest selling point is that it's story driven like a single player game. I dont know, I might still pick it up, but MMO's in general are risky business for me. I've been burned by AoC, Rift, WAR...You pay $60.00 because you want to try it (there is almost never a trail), the game fails, your out $60.00 and unlike a single player game you cant just reinstall couple a months later without subbing. AoC, WAR, Rift..That's $180.00 gone that I'll never get back. What's the chance's I'll go back to any of them? Extremely slim.
 
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NoEcho said:
Yah, I can search too. But a) it irritates me when someone decrees theirs is the 'official [whatever] thread' - what gives them the authority?, and b) this thread is about a specific aspect of that game and MMORPGs in general.
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It's not an on-rails game whatsoever. Also, 'Official' threads aren't a matter of authority. It's a matter of ease-of-use, etiquette and orderlyness. For that matter, what 'authority' do you or I have to make a new (redundant) thread on a game just because we think our question is unique and deserves its own thread?
 
People calling out new MMOs for "copying" WoW's interface and font colors, etc. must be really desperate to find faults in the games.

If WoW did something in a way that works, don't change it just for the sake of changing it. I'm GLAD that there are similarities because that made my transition into SWTOR less awkward. Even if I hadn't played WoW before, the system still works because it's user-friendly.

Originality for the sake of originality leads to unnecessary complexity or just overall bad ideas.
 
Dion said:
Indeed sir. Sadly mmos have become cash cows. They may not be successful after release.. But the game sells millions which is more then the average game. And since there was millions of suckers that paid 60$ for an MMO... ( Yes 60$ for an MMO ). Its nothing but profit for EA.
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$60 just to get in the door before we talk about the rest of the fees. It's insane.

This point can't be overstated for this reason if nothing else:

A year or so from now this same game will be the beneficiary of a bunch of patches thanks to the slew of people paying premium dollars to be glorified beta testers now.

That's where people like me, if I even give a damn, can swoop in and get this game for $30 or less and more than likely see a free to play model, which is the way it should be anyways and the only way I'd ever even remotely consider any kind of MMO at all if the gameplay appealed to me.

What a racket. No wonder all the big publishers are taking a shot at it. I would, too.
 
Volume said:
People calling out new MMOs for "copying" WoW's interface and font colors, etc. must be really desperate to find faults in the games.

If WoW did something in a way that works, don't change it just for the sake of changing it. I'm GLAD that there are similarities because that made my transition into SWTOR less awkward. Even if I hadn't played WoW before, the system still works because it's user-friendly.

Originality for the sake of originality leads to unnecessary complexity or just overall bad ideas.
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Every game in existence owes some or all of its ideals to another game , the whole "this copied that" is just about the lamest argument you can make. And as it was pointed out before , you don't like it? Then the simple solution is don't play it.

Threads like this serve little to no purpose , the OP hasn't even played the game he's questionably mocking so he hasn't even got any perspective on the matter. People argue about this crap in MMO general chat in just about every MMO I've ever played , its troll bait and it seems to work.

Can we please all agree that games copy off each other because people are influenced by what "works" and stop trying to waste our time pointing out this fact every time a new MMO gets released?
 
sekira05 said:
It's suffers from WoW clone syndrome. The game copies nearly everything from WoW down to even the font colors and adds almost nothing new over WoW, other than voice acting which is overused and overrated anyways.
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LOL - the color = rarity system started with Diablo, not WoW.

Anyway, what you are essentially saying is that every RPG is a clone of Diablo, every FPS is a clone of Doom, every RTS is a clone of Dune II, etc. Thus why do we play anything since every new game is simply a copy of what came before?
 
Riddleofsteel said:
It's not an on-rails game whatsoever. Also, 'Official' threads aren't a matter of authority. It's a matter of ease-of-use, etiquette and orderlyness. For that matter, what 'authority' do you or I have to make a new (redundant) thread on a game just because we think our question is unique and deserves its own thread?
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Because my opinion is so important it deserves its own thread. ;)
 
SWTOR is most certainly a HOAR type game.. but it's fun!

If you're looking for true open MMO.. stick with AO. I maintain that it is one of the best MMO's ever.. I just wish the population was higher.

For a good story and some fun gameplay.. try out SWTOR.
 
khanable said:
SWTOR is most certainly a HOAR type game.. but it's fun!

If you're looking for true open MMO.. stick with AO. I maintain that it is one of the best MMO's ever.. I just wish the population was higher.

For a good story and some fun gameplay.. try out SWTOR.
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I agree, AO is my Sci Fi styled EQ (love the anything goes, no instance style of gameplay ... really miss it :( ) and SWTOR is my Sci Fi styled WoW. I don't care if you don't see similarities, the two games share them but I like SWTOR much more so I don't give a damn if they are copies of each other.
 
khanable said:
SWTOR is most certainly a HOAR type game.. but it's fun!

If you're looking for true open MMO.. stick with AO. I maintain that it is one of the best MMO's ever.. I just wish the population was higher.

For a good story and some fun gameplay.. try out SWTOR.
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I'm a bit confused though, if it plays like a single player bioware game and you really don't need other players at all, why is it even an MMO, and why do you want the population to be higher? Is it just for the feel of having other players in the world? (Which I can understand)

Guess I haven't followed this game enough to know how it works fully, but at end game are there raids and large scale pvp scenarios and whatnot? If so, then it's kind of misleading to say you can play it solo.

You can level all the way to the level cap solo in most modern mmo's, that doesn't really count as getting even close to the full game experience though, most of the game is played at max level anyway.
 
FranklyShankly said:
I'm a bit confused though, if it plays like a single player bioware game and you really don't need other players at all, why is it even an MMO, and why do you want the population to be higher? Is it just for the feel of having other players in the world? (Which I can understand)

Guess I haven't followed this game enough to know how it works fully, but at end game are there raids and large scale pvp scenarios and whatnot? If so, then it's kind of misleading to say you can play it solo.

You can level all the way to the level cap solo in most modern mmo's, that doesn't really count as getting even close to the full game experience though, most of the game is played at max level anyway.
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I am here with you and haven't followed game enough! I am also wondering about the end game content / large pvp / etc.

I would hope your companions don't let you do end game playing solo, $15 a month for sp game :p
 
Volume said:
People calling out new MMOs for "copying" WoW's interface and font colors, etc. must be really desperate to find faults in the games.

If WoW did something in a way that works, don't change it just for the sake of changing it. I'm GLAD that there are similarities because that made my transition into SWTOR less awkward. Even if I hadn't played WoW before, the system still works because it's user-friendly.

Originality for the sake of originality leads to unnecessary complexity or just overall bad ideas.
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It's when they feel like cheap knockoffs that I have a problem. A lot of war shooter games are cheap knockoffs of CoD and they get called out for it. They need to expand on the core gameplay in some meaningful way or do it BETTER or they will get called out for being shitty, unoriginal copies of the gold standard.

Half-Life has many similarities to Quake 2, but nobody calls it on that because it does enough other things better to break the mold and give it a life of its own.
 
What i don't understand is that from all the gameplay videos i see of the game, it looks like it took a step back instead of moving forward in regards to the combat mechanics.

see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndVN1sOoeEg

Most videos look like this (that is to say, look like SWG gameplay... 2 people just standing auto-attacking eachother).

Where the hell is inovation in MMO combat? I won't play another until they add in shit where you have to think and react. While the CC in WoW got out of control (though the healing was the biggest issue), its flavor of PVP was (is?) still the best out there. Things happen during a fight which makes you adapt and respond, not just stand there and mash your buttons.

I don't know if this falls in like with your HOAR idea, but this is the biggest problem with new mmos in my opinion.
 
chockomonkey said:
What i don't understand is that from all the gameplay videos i see of the game, it looks like it took a step back instead of moving forward in regards to the combat mechanics.

see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndVN1sOoeEg

Most videos look like this (that is to say, look like SWG gameplay... 2 people just standing auto-attacking eachother).

Where the hell is inovation in MMO combat? I won't play another until they add in shit where you have to think and react. While the CC in WoW got out of control (though the healing was the biggest issue), its flavor of PVP was (is?) still the best out there. Things happen during a fight which makes you adapt and respond, not just stand there and mash your buttons.

I don't know if this falls in like with your HOAR idea, but this is the biggest problem with new mmos in my opinion.
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How to auto attack? Im pretty sure you cant. They really need to patch that in!!!!!!!!!! Wow has auto attack why cant this game?
 
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Auto attack is stupid, play the million other mmos out there if you want auto attack, I'm glad they left that out.
 
HOAR is a common complaint, but it allows for a story teller to better control the experience and pacing better. It's a difference of what you like or not. If you just want to free-form and let whatever may happen, happen, that's all well and good. Personally I enjoy a game that has proper pacing, which can only be achived via the "on rails" complaint.
 
My main complaint with TOR is that it feels like it's on rails. But also: The planets each have their own look but for the most part they feel smaller and less 'alive' than your typical WoW zone. Building interiors mostly look and feel the same. There's little reason to explore. Dark side/Light side only makes a difference in regards to a few pieces of gear you can equip. The battle system and talent tree are exactly the same as every other MMO. Blah Blah.

It is pretty enjoyable to play but I lost interest during the head start and haven't even been back to activate my account. The wife and some of my friends are still enjoying it but it was a waste of $80 for me.
 
Bankie said:
My main complaint with TOR is that it feels like it's on rails. But also: The planets each have their own look but for the most part they feel smaller and less 'alive' than your typical WoW zone. Building interiors mostly look and feel the same. There's little reason to explore. Dark side/Light side only makes a difference in regards to a few pieces of gear you can equip. The battle system and talent tree are exactly the same as every other MMO. Blah Blah.
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I have to agree with you here. I was in beta for about 9 months, and really struggled to keep playing it after just a couple weeks, even though it was free and "exclusive". The game was just...bland. All the levels seemed narrow and linear, no deviation from the mandated set path. Any typical hour spent would be "grab quest A here --> Fight endless hordes of mundane enemies --> Achieve quest objective --> Fight endless hordes of respawned mundane enemies to turn in the quest and grab a new one.

The fact that you can play the entire game solo is a major turn off to me. If I want to play a game alone, I will play a single-player game that does not require a monthly subscription. Granted, I come from the EverQuest 1 generation of MMOs, which were truely MMOs. (Insert flames here)
 
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