AG Coating Paranoia - The Official Thread

I will take aggressive AG over glossy any time, and I am not the only one that has said so.
 
I will take glossy over aggressive AG any time, and I am not the only one that has said so.
 
daveswantek said:
I will take aggressive AG over glossy any time, and I am not the only one that has said so.
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Clearly you missed the point.

I shall refrase it: no one pick an aggressively AG coated monitor over the same model with with light AG if given the option.
 
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I just received my Dell U2412M and one of the very first things I noticed was the AG coating. Simply horrible! I came from an old Samsung PVA panel that was matte enough not to cause exagerated reflections but did not have this horrible thing on it.
On white backgrounds it makes the panel seem like it is dirty. In pictures, it makes you wonder if it is the picture that is grainy/has too much noise or if it's just the damn AG coating!

I'm planning to return this monitor ASAP and intend to replace for a new one. Since I reached the conclusion that 24" isn't big enough for what I had in mind, I was thinking of going for the U3011, but if the AG coating on it is has bad as on the U2412M, I don't want it.

Any sugestions? I no longer care if the screen is glossy or not. I'd rather work in a dim environment or buy a monitor hood than look at this horrible effect of the U2412M coating. BTW, the Samsung SA850 is not available where I live.
 
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katabatik said:
I was thinking of going for the U3011, but if the AG coating on it is has bad as on the U2412M, I don't want it.
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The DELL U3011 has one of the most aggressive AG coatings I have ever seen. Whites look very dirty on the display, and I RMAed my U3011 immediately because of this. If you want a display that is at least 27" and lacks aggressive AG, there are currently only 3 options:

Samsung SA850
Hazro HZ27WC/D
Apple LED Cinema Display 27"
 
I'm curious how long it will take until we will see the first displays with a reflective/glass surface with this anti-reflective coating applied on it. The Macbook Air seems to have something like this and I love it. Some of you might know this technique from photo cameras or glasses.
 
BrePu,
I know it very well, both from photo lenses and glasses. All I can say is that you haven't seen what a dirt magnet is until you've used glasses with this type of coating. It is literally impossible to keep the glasses spotlessly clean for more than a few hours. Furthermore, once they get really dirty, it is a PITA to clean them again.

Ashk0

Of the monitors you mentioned, only Apple is available where I live. However, it lacks something that is very important to me: height adjustable stand. Also, its PPI is too high for my liking. I wonder if with time I'll get used to this AG coating thing. With other colours it's aceptable, it's the white backgrounds that kill me.
 
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katabatik said:
BrePu,
I know it very well, both from photo lenses and glasses. All I can say is that you haven't seen what a dirt magnet is until you've used glasses with this type of coating. It is literally impossible to keep the glasses spotlessly clean for more than a few hours. Furthermore, once they get really dirty, it is a PITA to clean them again.
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I actually own a Macbook Air and although it does collect dust it's no big deal to clean. Fingerprints however are farily annoying, but they are equally annoying on both glass and AG coatings. All I can say is that I love this kind of anti-reflection coating on my Macbook Air and that I'd love to see it on a desktop display. It would certainly provide a third choice for us customers.
 
Then it musn't be exactly the same coating used on photo lenses and glasses. Then again, you are more sensitive to dust/dirt if you are looking through things, like glasses, instead of just staring at them. I miss my old Samsung's coating. At the time (2004) most screens were matte without going to these extremes. Sometimes things don't evolve for the best. :(
 
Ashok0 said:
The DELL U3011 has one of the most aggressive AG coatings I have ever seen. Whites look very dirty on the display, and I RMAed my U3011 immediately because of this.
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I was checking the U3011 specs and I found out that the AG coating on the U3011 and U2412M are the same. So there you go. You understand perfectly why it bothers me. ;)
 
I have a glossy screen, but the reflections doesn't bother me at all, if there is alot of sun in the room it is ofc noticeable but otherwise it is very much ok. Although I have 2 old matte monitors, how do I find if they have AG coating or not? The image on them is not strictly what others described as aggresive AG, but I would like to make them glossy if possible :)
 
Anyone using a Sony TV with what they call "Gorilla Glass"? I was wondering what the glare was like off of that glass.
 
i've recently purchased an IPS 226V-PN that i will return because of a stuck pixel. I will get another one in exchange.

there is the ag coating that everyone talked about, and i know that feel now, the crystal look of it

it does not bother me and i don't think it's a sign of bad quality
because i don't look at my monitor from 10 cm distance, i don't notice the crystal look of the AG coating
so it's not a problem at all

i like the look of both glossy and matte screen, and i simply don't give a care about either
katabatik said:
Then it musn't be exactly the same coating used on photo lenses and glasses. Then again, you are more sensitive to dust/dirt if you are looking through things, like glasses, instead of just staring at them. I miss my old Samsung's coating. At the time (2004) most screens were matte without going to these extremes. Sometimes things don't evolve for the best. :(
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they must be using cheaper filters
 
on the contrary the better the AR coating the easier it is to see the crap on it
 
It seems that nobody here, even the almighty albovin (/salute), understands that anti-glare technology IS CRAP. THIS IS A FACT. Anti-glare uses small bumps to reflect ambient light in many directions, reducing the subjective distraction of the reflection by turning it "fuzzy". This has the undeniable, unavoidable, negative effect of attenuating and partially refracting the light coming out of the polarizer (the image your monitor is trying to display!).

Glossy technology is ALSO CRAP. The reflections are much more distracting because distinct objects can be easily resolved.

What we need is better anti-reflective technology, which absorbs ambient light instead of dispersing its reflection.
 
XTF said:
Are glossy LCD monitors comparable to CRT monitors?
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Every CRT I owned had some sort of anti-glare coating on it. Sony's Trinitron CRT monitors were really effective at reducing glare. Most of the glossy LCD screens I've seen looks like a mirror, which I can't stand.
 
True. I owned a Sony Triniton CRT for years and loved it. Also true: LCD glossy (27" Apple) looks like a mirror.

The issue with glossy is not only a question of personal, subjective, distraction due to reflections. It is an health issue. In college I've had a subject on health and ergonomics in the workplace and one thing we learned is that reflections of any kind (on monitors, on your table's dektop, walls, etc.) should be avoided because they cause eyestrain and can cause eyesight damage on the long run. I've read several articles on eye strain and computer ergonomics that also addressed this issue.

So, reflections on your monitor are bad but IMO excessive AG is not good either because it diminuishes the perceived sharpness of the image. The ideal would be an AG coating that the user wouldn't notice and that efectively reduced reflections. Alas, I don't see such coating in modern monitors.

In my quest for a new monitor, I guess I'll have to accept either looking at a screen that looks like someone spray some cristaline goo on it, or looking at something that I can use as a mirror to brush my hair before I start working...:rolleyes:
 
AG also has a health issue!


At least for me it has. Here is my story:
I've had a two CRT Monitor setup for almost ten years. In the end they were pretty much done. Very blurry and caused strain on the eye. From that I went to a Dell 2407WFP. I think it was in 2006 or 2007. The picture was far superior to my old CRTs and I was very happy with that. Later I added a Dell 3007WFP. I'm a programmer and I'm sitting long hours in front of my computer. In my spare time I have the bad habbit of also sitting in front of the same monitors alot. I'm self employed and never had different monitors as a reference.

I began having problems with my concentration when working. It was like a cramp in my brain. In retrospective I think one could call it tension headaches. Only it did not ache. In my worst times I could work an hour tops before my brain was completly drained. At that point I was not able to perform the most simple mental tasks. And it would take hours to recover to a non stupid state.

I adjusted my setup for the usual ergonomic recommendations. I went to doctors. Made lots of sports for balancing. No luck. I always thought it might have to do with my eyes. That unability to focus seemed to be concentrated in my forehead near my eyes. But I could not pinpoint it. I went to an optician and an eye specialist doctor. Close to perfect vision. At least nothing that could in any way explain my problems.
In the end I was being treated for depressions. Which probably were present because years of running around like a moron kind of drags you down. I was prescribed antidepressants which made me gain 10 kilos in 10 month. But my concentration problem did not go. So I got rid of the medication again.
I only every briefly questioned my monitors and tried to change the setup in the ways i could. But could never make the connection because I do not feel any immediate reaction working on them. In fact I loved them. So much space, such nice colors. Great reviews. What could be wrong with them. One day when recommending them to a friend I looked up the price for the follow up models. Only one user review caught my eye. He rated the monitor garbage because he would get headaches from it. And he provided a link to a forum discussing the AG problems. So I tested that by working on my projector as a test. And bingo. My concentration problems were gone.

I'm not 100% sure it's only the AG. Maybe it is something differnt. IPS glow maybe. Or some wired combination of brightness/distance/whatever that I don't understand. If I reduce brightness on the Dells it takes longer for the problem to show up. But I'm pretty sure it is the AG. The Macbook with glossy display that I also own now does not cause those problems. I have a Samsung SA850 since yesterday for my Desktop but I have not yet formed an opinon. Also if the problems with it should remain I will not be able to rule out AG. Because after all even though his AG is very mild it's still there. If so I'll probably try a glossy model next.

My impression is that the problem lies in the fact that my brain recognozes the AG as some kind of structure and tries but is not able to resolve it. Thus causing stress or simply overusing resources.

So please do continue to bring this up. I was very glad someone did.
 
It just caused you irritation, and yes such a things are hard to resolve, especially they are noticeable when you work for long hours.
 
Pastmaster, thank you for your contribution.

I too work very long hours in front of the computer. Recently, I've experienced eyesight strain and I reached the conclusion that it was my old monitor. After asking several people their opinion on the sharpness of my monitor, they all considered it "a bit unsharp". When I bought it years ago, everyone was amazed on how sharp everything looked! But in 7 years, it has had thousands of hours of use and nothing last for ever. Some years ago I had to work temporarily on an old Samsung CRT with slightly blurred image. I couldn't work for more than 2 hours in a row. After that, my eyes started to hurt. From then on, sharpness, especialy of text, is of paramount importance in my choice of monitors. My problem with excessive AG is that, at least for me, it reduces sharpness, if ever so slightly and causes micro-reflections, making a white backgrounds look grainy and unevenly bright. My eyeshight are my working tools, so I have to take very good care of it and keep it at the best performance possible.

The problem with reviews is that reviewers don't work long hours per day, almost everyday, reading text, like you and I do, so they never get to notice the eye strain.

I'm returning my Dell U2412M and I still haven't figured out what to trade it for. The SA850 is not distributed in my country and it seems that very few other options are available. Right now, the price is no longer an issue. I don't care how much I pay if I get top notch image quality and sharpness. My eyesight is worth much more than that.
 
@Pastmaster
it probably have more to do with color spectrum than AG if AG never really bothered you

spectrum.jpg

spectrum-srgb.jpg

spectrum.jpg

these are spectral characteristic of different monitors backlights. As you can see colors are quite different... I had various monitors and some made me sick and some feel very good and it have nothing to do with coating...
 
I've said it before in this thread but glare is horrible on your eyes, especially if you are light sensitive. I would not recommend a glossy monitor to anyone who is unable or unwilling to design their room+desk and lighting design around their monitor.

When I use my glossy 10.1" transformer tablet~netbook on my lunch counter mid afternoon and the sun swings into the door behind my sitting position's oval window, it makes a horribly harsh glare. If I were using a desktop monitor in an office with banks of harsh overhead fluorescent lights, or blasting sunlight from windows behind me, it would be ridiculous to use a glossy screen. However even with AG, you are still polluting the screen and color space when you hit it with direct lighting, as well as the often mentioned pollution of the AG grain itself on solid planes of colors (especially whites) and fine text. The image degradation effects of light pollution are why several high end NEC's and others (AG coated) come with 3-sided monitor hoods, and why hardware color testing is usually done in dark rooms right up against the panel.
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..I set up my large 3 panel corner desk to take over an entire corner of a room, facing outward. Its not a dark room without lights by any means. However all room lighting is behind the back of the (27" ACD) monitor, including a sunlight bathed window, several lamps, some overheads, and a brightly lit aquarium. I also have a few desk lamps adjacent to the monitors. No light sources are in front of the monitor's face at any angles that could ever hit my eyes, so no sources show up in the monitor. If you can't orchestrate your room design and lighting properly for a glossy monitor, its probably going to bother you. Overhead banks of harsh fluorescents in offices show both above and behind in any reflective surface and are horrible. The stereotypical "desk at the wall" like a bookshelf setup is also a design for a "catcher's mitt" orientation to light pollution. And I feel this pollution is undesirable whether you have AG coating or not, its just much more "glaring" on a glossy. Light pollution will always reduce the quality of your display to your eyes. The over-aggressive AG tradeoff is that its always polluted/compromised by the AG coating somewhat whether its being polluted by light or not in any given room/lighting design.
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Photographers set up studios with special wall colorings/drapes and lights(and frequencies),.. they and video camera men also hood their cameras (even with small hoods similar to the NEC monitor ones) for the best quality display and imagery they can get, avoiding light pollution.. People somehow feel they can just slap their monitor anywhere and maintain the quality in the specs to their eyeballs. I don't think that is possible. Imo if you are using a "high end", relatively expensive ips monitor and not some basic lcd for a front hall desk/office work etc, you should take the time to design your room around it vs direct light pollution if at all possible no matter what the coating.
 
The Samsung causes me the same problems as the Dells. Maybe I was wrong about AG after all.

@Meeho: I was not aware LCDs could flicker. A main benefit of their matrix is that there is no more electron beam and hence no need for flickering. So i thought. I would never have guessed they would purposely reintroduce this. This might in fact be my problem after all. That also fits in with my observation regarding the macbook. Since that particular model does not seem to have any flickering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGqSMp6BfzA. It's in german but just watching the images you should get the idea. Also I recalled that I used to have very similar problems in clubs that had stroboskopic lights.

The first post in the first link of yours links to somebodies extensive article describing his problems with flickering. He mentions that he thinks this is a problem of the nervous system. Incidentally today a physical therapist told me that what I thought to be some form of carpal tunnel syndrome is more likely to be a problem of the nervous system. I guess I'll see a specialist and look out for monitors without flickering. Hell… I'm afraid that might be even more difficult than checking for AG. I can't recall anybody ever testing LCDs for flickering. You don't happen to have any pointers?

@XoR: Also thank you for bringing that up. Do you have any references to what monitors produce what spectrum? And maybe hints to monitor with better distribution? Will a normal calibration tool give me such results?

@katabatik: Same here. I just want those problems gone. The guy in the link Meeho provided went so far as to exchange the light tubes in his monitor for ones that won't flicker. I'll probably try the same if nothing else helps :/. Is the U2412M not sharp? Have you ruled out the flicker problem for yourself? I hate that this seems to be so hard to diagnose. I wish doctors would just know about this stuff.

@elvn: I agree with regards to desktop monitors. That's the reason I bought the Samsung with semi glossy panel. However for a notebook those arguments hold less truth because you can adjust so easily. I can work for hours on the Mac with no problems as opposed to my non glossy monitors. So my problems stems from something else and I'll at least give a glossy desktop monitor a chance if I think it may help.
 
XOR is just trying to convince you to buy a U2410 and justify his love for wide-gamut monitors.

I have used many LCD's and only 1 flickered, but only when operating at 24/72/76hz. It was pretty minor but noticeably annoying.
 
@Pastmaster

I can't really call the U2412M "unsharp". Maybe I didn't express myself correctly. I think the right word to describe it is "grainy" and "uncomfortable to look at". I never felt confortable looking at it and it was not only an AG coating issue. I've messed with the settings a whole afternoon and still couldn't find a confortable picture. That monitor has a kind of weird brightness to it which isn't related with the brightness level itself. Even if you turn the brightness to very low levels, it is still sort of a weird brightness. Sorry to be so vague, but I didn't spend enough time with the monitor to pin point the cause.

What worries me is that nearly all modern monitors seem to have the dreaded AG coating. The only one that doesn't (Samsung S24A850) is not available where I live and seems to have some shortcomings. I now wonder if flat panel technology has evolved in the right direction... Eye confort seems to be the least of manufacturer's concerns.
 
@Pastmaster
those shots are from xbit.com
I don't really know what software they used to make those. As hardware goes they sure used spectrometer of some sorts :)

also it's hard to tell what monitor produce what spectrum without measuring them and even harder to tell what spectrum YOUR eyes will tolerate more :(

NCX said:
XOR is just trying to convince you to buy a U2410 and justify his love for wide-gamut monitors.
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my love? :confused:
only monitors I love are CRTs :D
WCG-CCFL is just second best :)

but that might not be the case soon as I'm about to change it to RGB-LED + A-TW + custom gamut emulation monitor :cool:
 
katabatik said:
What monitor is that?
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LG W2420R http://www.lg.com/global/products/display/monitor/LG-graphic-W2420R.jsp

PRAD review here: http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2010/review-lg-w2420r-part7.html#Viewing

other screens with that panel are HP LP2480zx and Quato IP240ex LED

I hope AG coating will be less grainy, but it's not priority for me and it wasn't reason why I bought it in the first place. I found it in good price and cause it's superior to every other 24" LCD so I just couldn't resist myself to buy it ;) With FW900 and W2420R on desk waiting for OLED will be much easier :p
 
XoR said:
I found it in good price and cause it's superior to every other 24" LCD so I just couldn't resist myself to buy it ;)
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Thanks for the info. However, according to Prad,the Eizo GC243W is better, albeit more expensive.
 
albovin said:
Who told you that? :D
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isn't this one of three wide-gamut monitors with A-TW and the only one without nasty dithering? :confused:

probably U think NEC 2490WUXi is the best but it's just sRGB and have worse contrast ratio so can't really be "the best" :rolleyes:

katabatik said:
Thanks for the info. However, according to Prad,the Eizo GC243W is better, albeit more expensive.
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it's worse:
- it have much worse contrast ratio = washedout image at night
- panel without A-TW = IPS glow attacking from every side
- also have annoying green-flickering
- even sRGB mode is worse (more deltaE on colors)
- have "slight operating noise" even when there is usb key in usb port...

LG had only "good" rating because bundled calibrator that is useless for that screen. But what's the problem to buy good calibrator for price difference? :confused:

This EIZO is feature-wise on level of NEC PA241W but much more expensive...
 
katabatik said:
Thanks for the info. However, according to Prad,the Eizo GC243W is better, albeit more expensive.
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I would always take an A-TW polarized screen over a non A-TW polarized screen if given the chance, so I'd disagree that it's better.

XoR said:
LG W2420R http://www.lg.com/global/products/display/monitor/LG-graphic-W2420R.jsp

PRAD review here: http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/review/2010/review-lg-w2420r-part7.html#Viewing

other screens with that panel are HP LP2480zx and Quato IP240ex LED

I hope AG coating will be less grainy, but it's not priority for me and it wasn't reason why I bought it in the first place. I found it in good price and cause it's superior to every other 24" LCD so I just couldn't resist myself to buy it ;) With FW900 and W2420R on desk waiting for OLED will be much easier :p
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Let us know what you think of it.

It's not available in North America and there was no reason to look at HP LP2480ZX based on the dithering issue.

If the gamut mapping/emulation is as good as Eizo CG and NEC PA series it should be spectacular.

I knew it was one of those three (obviously) but I figured I'd let you answer ;)

You'll be waiting a while for OLED so I hope it lasts heh.
 
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