Samsung SA850 on PLS - the first review has been published (preproduction unit)

I have the Samsung SyncMaster 275T+ which has a S-PVA panel and I see no ghosting or feel any input lag when playing games. I play almost nothing but FPS games.
If a monitor had the great reviews this one had when it was released we all would be happy with today's monitors but to be honest they don't make monitors this good anymore.
 
John2000 said:
I have to add:

*PS (IPS and PLS) - average contrast and IPS/PLS glow.
*VA (PVA and MVA) - best contrast and no IPS/PLS glow.
TN - average contrast and no IPS/PLS glow.
Click to expand...

TN panels also have quite a bit of glow as well, and you can see the picture I posted above to see how "IPS glow" compares with poor MVA viewing angles. Perhaps a refresher (MVA washout on left, IPS on right):
003861411.jpg



I would take "ips glow" over MVA viewing angles every time.

The glow is like someone shining a bit of light on your screen, while viewing angle shift can completely destroy all aspects of the image.
 
Not getting any feedback in over 60 thread.

Anyone out there that has the 24 or 27" can you see if the monitor can do 75hz at 1600x1200. Mine drops down to 960x1200 at anything over 61hz using a dual link DVI cable.
 
With Displayport, good viewing angles and a fairly thin bezel these have the potential to be great Eyefinity monitors.
I dont like the idea of buying from 3 different stores but its hard enough finding anyone getting more than one at a time in the uk.
 
Snowdog said:
I would take "ips glow" over MVA viewing angles every time.
Click to expand...

But who normally watches a monitor at such extreme angles? A monitor is commonly not used like a TV where people sit at very different positions around it. The important thing is that the colors are stable within "normal" viewing angles. The TFT central review of the Samsung F2380 MVA monitor that I mentioned earlier said:

"However there was a contrast shift from an angle of >45° either side which made the image go a little paler. From a wider angle still the image had a white tinge to it and you can pick this out from the images above."

If the color reproduction on PVA/MVA panels is ok up to ~45° viewing angle, then the viewing angles do not seem like a big problem to me.

The problem with "IPS glow" on the other hand is that it's visible even when watching straigh on, which is much worse since that's the position from which the monitor is normally viewed at.
 
John2000 said:
The problem with "IPS glow" on the other hand is that it's visible even when watching straigh on, which is much worse since that's the position from which the monitor is normally viewed at.
Click to expand...

PVA/MVA have problems looking at them straight on as well. I have owned two and had to get rid of both precisely for this reason.

Fine if you have preference for viewing angle shift over viewing angle glow, but don't pretend only one of them has a problem viewed straight on, or that your opinion is somehow universal.

No LCD type is perfect, but a great many of us have tried every type on our desks, and have come to the conclusion that IPS is the lesser of evils for us.

You are free to reach of different conclusion as it applies to you, but if you try to paint this as a generic fact, expect to be challenged by those who have reached a different conclusion.

Let's just say you prefer VA and many of us in this PLS/IPS thread prefer that technology and move on.
 
Ocardowin said:
Has anyone been able to figure out how to change the PBP resolution of desktops to the recommended 1280x1440?

I don't have that option, yet the manual says that is the recommended PBP resolution.
Click to expand...
Ocardowin said:
Anyone?
Click to expand...
Try reading all the posts after your post before posting again...;)
http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1037713958&postcount=437

Galvin said:
Not getting any feedback in over 60 thread.

Anyone out there that has the 24 or 27" can you see if the monitor can do 75hz at 1600x1200. Mine drops down to 960x1200 at anything over 61hz using a dual link DVI cable.
Click to expand...
I have the 27" and im not sure if it's possible... i tried forcing it in powerstrip and i got a flickering mess. Not sure that resolution is supported with anything above 60hz. Only res that goes to 75hz in my catalyst center is 1280x1024.
 
Last edited:
GuyClinch said:
Not an expert or anything - but I been reading Xbit labs for a while. And the problem with the PVA/MVA panels is that for some transistions (other then gray to gray) the speed is REALLY slow. So this will lead to visibile ghosting because the monitor will refresh before the pixel can change.

What's worse is that there tends to be response time compensation artifacts - because to get even that 8ms G2G compensation is not 'natural'.. This tends to introduce input lag as well..

There is a reason that IPS won out - its the better technology for most people..
Click to expand...

Yeah and that is they are cheaper to mass produce.

Good MVA/PVA gaming screens had no compensation artifacts and response times even below 8 ms.

I know my A-MVA stays with me till OLED gets affordable.
 
I have the Samsung SyncMaster 275T+ which has a S-PVA panel and I see no ghosting or feel any input lag when playing games. I play almost nothing but FPS games.
If a monitor had the great reviews this one had when it was released we all would be happy with today's monitors but to be honest they don't make monitors this good anymore.
Click to expand...

That actually is an excellent S-PVA monitor - but it doesn't seem better then the new PLS monitor if you compare xbit lab reviews.. I'd say that Samsung is certainly capable of making a better desktop monitor with an S-PVA panel - but the current C-PVA monitors isn't even close.

Truth is Samsung was sick of having its clocked cleaned by the IPS monitors - and decided to strike back with an IPS knockoff. If you get one with a nice backlight I think its a very good monitor. Sadly this seems a bit hit or miss right now..
 
GuyClinch said:
That actually is an excellent S-PVA monitor - but it doesn't seem better then the new PLS monitor if you compare xbit lab reviews.. I'd say that Samsung is certainly capable of making a better desktop monitor with an S-PVA panel - but the current C-PVA monitors isn't even close.

Truth is Samsung was sick of having its clocked cleaned by the IPS monitors - and decided to strike back with an IPS knockoff. If you get one with a nice backlight I think its a very good monitor. Sadly this seems a bit hit or miss right now..
Click to expand...

I have two Samsung 213T's in a dual monitor setup. My wife has a 193P. I need to get her a new monitor because the stand has become loose and the screen won't stay at the correct angle. The uniformity is flawless, and I do not see any washout when I look from an angle. Honestly, if I could find her monitor in a 16:10 format I would buy it instantly. I understand that they don't make PVA-based monitors with that kind of quality any more, so IPS seems like the only choice. I suppose I can reluctantly lose the deep blacks, but I can't believe that the screen uniformity can be such an issue.
 
Can we get a head count on how many people have this monitor and actually enjoy it?
 
yourgrandma said:
Just got mine from buy.com. Mine is the S27A850 this monitor is supposed to be replacing my 19" crt. I'm pretty disappointed as this is my first time buying a LCD and i hoped that this monitor would have reached my standards but instead it has pretty much scared me from buying any LCD. Input lag IS noticeable from the the first time i moved my mouse and after testing it for a while i can still feel it even when I'm typing... i guess long time CRT usage will do that to you. I'm going to leave this monitor on pretty much a whole week and then take pictures again IF there are any changes.

The glow is just awful and very noticeable as it is almost like some one is behind you shining a flashlight on certain parts of your screen. the blacks are also terrible it's pretty much just nothing but grey. Contrast and gamma settings had no effect on the glow neither does a bright room or dark room it is still noticeable. Pix are pretty close to the effect in real life.

Default maximum brightness
Bright.jpg


Lowest possible brightness
dark.jpg


Noticeable in games (PC)
DarkGame.jpg


Other Info:
Mine Included a stand, usb3 cable, dual link dvi cable, power supply and cd/manual.
Test my ps3 for a short while and it works fine... but most games look blurry and grainy at 720p on this monitor.
The one good thing i noticed is no dead pixels.
Click to expand...

i just saw that u were coming from a 19"crt. i have been using a 22 mitsubishi diamond plus for 15 years and its about spent. i cant believe they cant make anything better than my dinosour crt. i have been holding out and been eyeing every ips/ high end tn panel for a while and they all seem to let people down. i run my crt at 1600X1200 85hz with no lag. i was looking at the other samsung 950d but its a tn but looks to be fast. i just dont know about the tn color shift at different angles and i dont care about 3d. $900 is alot of coin to downgrade from my pos dinosour crt
 
Bladestorm,
RE: Backlighting and PLS glow
How does the one you returned compare to the pic above with the horrible backlight bleed at the bottom left and right, was it much better?

I am thinking of getting this monitor regardless of backlight bleed and PLS glow because there are no real better alternatives.
 
Snowdog said:
TN panels also have quite a bit of glow as well, and you can see the picture I posted above to see how "IPS glow" compares with poor MVA viewing angles. Perhaps a refresher (MVA washout on left, IPS on right):
003861411.jpg



I would take "ips glow" over MVA viewing angles every time.

The glow is like someone shining a bit of light on your screen, while viewing angle shift can completely destroy all aspects of the image.
Click to expand...

you are comparing bananas with apples.
IPS must be compared with S-PVA
 
WickedWeasel said:
Bladestorm,
RE: Backlighting and PLS glow
How does the one you returned compare to the pic above with the horrible backlight bleed at the bottom left and right, was it much better?

I am thinking of getting this monitor regardless of backlight bleed and PLS glow because there are no real better alternatives.
Click to expand...

The one I had was not nearly as bad as in the picture above. I did initially notice some minor BLB in the same area, actually more so just to the left of the Samsung logo, but in all honesty I didn't even notice it after the next day. Almost as if it went away on it's own. I would not hesitate to put an order in if I were you. Just get it from a store with a good return/exchange policy if you do indeed get a bad one. Build quality in terms of BLB does seem to be all over the place with this monitor at present.

Speaking of build quality, had I been able to keep the monitor I would have exchanged it for another. I noticed a total of seven dust/dirt spots embedded into the screen in and around the center. They only showed up on white/light backgrounds, but it was enough to get annoying really fast. Especially if you're big into photo editing.

I realize it looks as though I brought up two reasons not to get the monitor, but that's not how I intend it to sound. If you can wait a month or two maybe by then they'll get the issues worked out. Otherwise get one now and hope for the best. :)
 
WickedWeasel said:
Bladestorm,
RE: Backlighting and PLS glow
How does the one you returned compare to the pic above with the horrible backlight bleed at the bottom left and right, was it much better?

I am thinking of getting this monitor regardless of backlight bleed and PLS glow because there are no real better alternatives.
Click to expand...

Yea this monitor seems to be IT but with its issues. want the led lit for less power consumption which will equal LESS HEAT in my room.
 
yourgrandma said:
Just got mine from buy.com. Mine is the S27A850 this monitor is supposed to be replacing my 19" crt. I'm pretty disappointed as this is my first time buying a LCD and i hoped that this monitor would have reached my standards but instead it has pretty much scared me from buying any LCD. Input lag IS noticeable from the the first time i moved my mouse and after testing it for a while i can still feel it even when I'm typing... i guess long time CRT usage will do that to you. I'm going to leave this monitor on pretty much a whole week and then take pictures again IF there are any changes.

The glow is just awful and very noticeable as it is almost like some one is behind you shining a flashlight on certain parts of your screen. the blacks are also terrible it's pretty much just nothing but grey. Contrast and gamma settings had no effect on the glow neither does a bright room or dark room it is still noticeable. Pix are pretty close to the effect in real life.

Default maximum brightness


Lowest possible brightness


Noticeable in games (PC)


Other Info:
Mine Included a stand, usb3 cable, dual link dvi cable, power supply and cd/manual.
Test my ps3 for a short while and it works fine... but most games look blurry and grainy at 720p on this monitor.
The one good thing i noticed is no dead pixels.
Click to expand...

One thing I noticed in both your black level photos "yourgrandma" was that there seems to be a lot of reflection coming from behind you when you were snapping the photos.

If it's too much to ask, can you take one with .5 second aperture with no light coming from behind you?

You did say it's representative of real life, but I'm just trying to distinguish between IPS glow, BLB, and reflections.

Thanks for the photos already!

sblantipodi said:
you are comparing bananas with apples.
IPS must be compared with S-PVA
Click to expand...

The effect is similar, but not always as consistent in strength. The darker centre, and slightly washed out sides are normal PVA/S-PVA/P,A-MVA characteristics.

For me it's not a big deal but it's still there. And yes, IPS does provide more stable contrast and less color washout from any angles outside of centre and dead-on. Though the trade-off with those lacking the A-TW polarizer is that they have IPS/PLS glow.

This is not a critique of VA it's a comparison in that sense.

Notice the middle of the [H]ardforum grey versus the right side on the BenQ FP241VW (A-MVA) I had in 2008:

2422359227_3e2eaf083c_b.jpg


Dell 2709W I had in 2009 still had it (S-PVA):

On-angle lagom test:

2863805267_e9c72e5030_b.jpg


Off-angle lagom test where you notice the further angle grey boxes (4 and 5) lightening over the previous "on-angle" test:

2863805291_0156e47364_b.jpg
 
10e said:
One thing I noticed in both your black level photos "yourgrandma" was that there seems to be a lot of reflection coming from behind you when you were snapping the photos.

If it's too much to ask, can you take one with .5 second aperture with no light coming from behind you?

You did say it's representative of real life, but I'm just trying to distinguish between IPS glow, BLB, and reflections.

Thanks for the photos already!
Click to expand...
Only way i was able to completely eliminate the reflection was to take the pictures in complete darkness. Also the camera I'm using doesn't have that as a adjustable setting. I did have a setting for iso which has something to do with exposure or something (I know of nothing of cameras :confused:) so here are my photos for that. Sorry if my pictures aren't what you are looking for this probably the last pictures i will take as I'm sending it off tomorrow.

setting at iso 1600
Brightness max
bright2.jpg

Brightness minimum
Dark2.jpg


Setting at iso 80
Brightness max
Bright3.jpg

Brightness minimum
Dark3.jpg
 
yourgrandma,
How does 720p video look at full screen? 1080p video at full screen? Is the scaling good?
Some people massage the panel, or flex the bezel a bit and it tends to reduce the BLB.
From your pics above, the BLB seems to have improved a bit at the lowest intensity?
 
WickedWeasel said:
yourgrandma,
How does 720p video look at full screen? 1080p video at full screen? Is the scaling good?
Some people massage the panel, or flex the bezel a bit and it tends to reduce the BLB.
From your pics above, the BLB seems to have improved a bit at the lowest intensity?
Click to expand...

Bending/flexing or massaging my monitor sounds like a terrible idea for $900 there is no way in hell i would risk damaging it :p.

As I don't watch that many movies I'm not that great of judge on this subject but I'll give you my opinion anyways. I think movies look OK not great.... I think your better off getting a 1080p tv/monitor dedicated to watching movies if thats what you really into for around 1/3rd the price. IMO the higher resolution doesn't really make you videos look better as it only makes the artifacts in the video stand out more. I did try watching The Book of Eli (a very dark movie) and it was pretty painful to watch with the glow and inconstant blacks (great movie though).
 
I'd exchange that for another... That doesn't look right to me. It's a shame because alot of other Samsung LED monitors seem to have little backlight bleed. Let's hope you just got unlucky.
 
Hello,
dunno if it was mentioned before, but at official product webpage for S27A850 is listed only DYNAMIC contrast ratio of 1000:1 (other monitors have listed both dynamic and static CR ) - based on information so far, it maybe pretty much real/official fact that the static CR is very poor and wont be any better, shame.

snmkab.png
 
DYNAMIC contrast ratio of 1000:1 (other monitors have listed both dynamic and static CR ) - based on information so far, it maybe pretty much real/official fact that the static CR is very poor and wont be any better, shame
Click to expand...

That's a typo. Dynamic CR tends to be around 30x the real contrast ratio. This monitor tested out from xbit labs at like 580. Which is weak - but its still way higher then a 1000 DCR number..
 
GuyClinch said:
That's a typo. Dynamic CR tends to be around 30x the real contrast ratio. This monitor tested out from xbit labs at like 580. Which is weak - but its still way higher then a 1000 DCR number..
Click to expand...

It maybe typo, or the XBIT got finer sample and the retail ones have really 1000:1 DCR - in that case it could be really DCR. It is also not a rule that DCR must be ten-to-hundreds times more than SCR ( remember f.e. NEC 20WGX2 ? and plenty more ... )
 
Last edited:
jinny1 said:
so generally a lower static contrast ratio means more backlight bleeding?
Click to expand...

Nope, backlight bleeding is visual artefact caused by improperly used/mastered technology for backlight in LCDs - the main effect of it is backlight bleeding and minor side effect is low static contrast.
 
It maybe typo, or the XBIT got finer sample and the retail ones have really 1000:1 DCR - in that case it could be really DCR. It is also not a rule that DCR must be ten-to-hundreds times more than SCR ( remember f.e. NEC 20WGX2 ? and plenty more ... )
Click to expand...

Yeah still doubt it.. I think this can be tested by people with a calibration device right? Or with a camera (but that seems like a serious PITA). I guess we will have to wait for an official review.

My bet is that because its basically an IPS clone (look at the pixel shape) its CR will be similiar to the Apple IPS monitor which uses an IPS panel and WLED lighting. So around 800 CR.

Maybe I will do it - but I am will admit I am getting a little gunshy about this monitor now. All the monitors I own have some backlight bleeding but not like grandmas
 
That's unfortunate to see backlight bleeding like that. Hopefully with newer revisions of the monitor this issue will be addressed. Backlight bleeding is my biggest pet peeve with LCD displays, I simply cannot have a display that has backlight bleeding. I'll RMA until I get a satisfactory unit. This can be avoided by going with brands like NEC, Eizo or other high-end manufacturers. You really get what you pay for with displays. My two NEC 2090UXi's (A-TW polarizers =D) have perfect backlights.
 
yourgrandma said:
Bending/flexing or massaging my monitor sounds like a terrible idea for $900 there is no way in hell i would risk damaging it :p.

As I don't watch that many movies I'm not that great of judge on this subject but I'll give you my opinion anyways. I think movies look OK not great.... I think your better off getting a 1080p tv/monitor dedicated to watching movies if thats what you really into for around 1/3rd the price. IMO the higher resolution doesn't really make you videos look better as it only makes the artifacts in the video stand out more. I did try watching The Book of Eli (a very dark movie) and it was pretty painful to watch with the glow and inconstant blacks (great movie though).
Click to expand...

Yeah don't do that. A couple of days of letting the panel settle and release some manufacturing tension is fine to see what the "final back-light bleed" will look like.

Based on your pictures it looks very obvious and unfortunate. Better luck next time, and I think returning it is a best bet. $900.00 is not chump change and you might as well get a quality product for that amount of money.
 
powruser said:
That's unfortunate to see backlight bleeding like that. Hopefully with newer revisions of the monitor this issue will be addressed. Backlight bleeding is my biggest pet peeve with LCD displays, I simply cannot have a display that has backlight bleeding. I'll RMA until I get a satisfactory unit. This can be avoided by going with brands like NEC, Eizo or other high-end manufacturers. You really get what you pay for with displays. My two NEC 2090UXi's (A-TW polarizers =D) have perfect backlights.
Click to expand...

So how come e.g. Eizo and NEC monitors have so much better uniformity and less backlight bleed? Do they use different panel models than those used in monitors with less consistent quality? Or do they use the same panel models, but they hand pick the best ones that are produced and leave the rest for the mass market monitors?

PS. I know the PLS panels are only used in Samsung S24A850DW and S27A850DW, but the questions are valid for all other monitors that use *IPS and *VA panels instead.
 
Last edited:
John2000 said:
So how come e.g. Eizo and NEC monitors have so much better uniformity and less backlight bleed? Do they use different panel models than those used in monitors with less consistent quality? Or do they use the same panel models, but they hand pick the best ones that are produced and leave the rest for the mass market monitors?
Click to expand...

With the price premium on those monitors its certainly possible they pay extra to cherry-pick the best panels but It'd be hard to tell how much it'll bleed until its assembled. It might be also be they use a material in the monitor frame or panel itself that is less prone to bending/warping.

Unlike smaller monitors there isn't as much choice in the panels themselves so the differences are usually in the frame, panel coating, scalers and additional circuitry.
 
Tak Ne said:
With the price premium on those monitors its certainly possible they pay extra to cherry-pick the best panels but It'd be hard to tell how much it'll bleed until its assembled. It might be also be they use a material in the monitor frame or panel itself that is less prone to bending/warping.

Unlike smaller monitors there isn't as much choice in the panels themselves so the differences are usually in the frame, panel coating, scalers and additional circuitry.
Click to expand...

Higher price can sometimes equal higher manufacturing quality and lower tolerances.

NEC has ColorComp and Eizo has DUE (digital uniformity) compensation that helps by using digital adjustments to compensate for bright/dark spots on the screen.

They don't necessarily cherry-pick panels though there are rumours confirming and denying, they use a factory process to illuminate the panels, detect the brightness differences across them and adjust electronics accordingly.

The Eizo version is non defeatable and the NEC version can be turned on/off, up/down in strength.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top