2.0 for PC music use, $500 budget

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SithSolo1

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 24, 2001
Messages
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For my current PC setup I'm running Infinity Entra One bookshelf speakers, TSC ASW-8 sub, and Panansonic SA-XR10 receiver. Onbaord audio powered by this chipset. Used for roughly 70/30, Music/Games&Movies

The "I want something different" bug is starting to bite and I'm looking for some opinions. I've never had what I consider a "nice" set of speakers. Don't get me wrong, the current setup was a massive step up from the old Logitech z-540 but I've had these Infinitys since the early 2000s and they were only $125 for the pair. I'm also fully aware that nice is relative.

Other notes:
Bedroom is roughly 16x11.5x9.5
Receiver has Digital and Analog inputs, 6/8 ohm loads ok
Any cabinet color other than Maple is fine
Buying/looking for used is fine
Prefer speakers no larger than the current Infinitys, smaller would be ideal


1) Should I look into getting a stand alone sound card, knowing it would cut into the budget? Something like an Asus Xonar STX.

2) What speakers should I be looking at?

Current speakers I'm eyeing include the Audioengine P4s, Ascend CBM-170 SEs, Aperion Verus Forte. These choices are assuming I need to fork out for the sound card.
 
I'm a fan of "nearfield" studio monitors for desks. I personally have a pair of Yamaha HS50.

Here's a bit of a review I made on the Yamaha speakers:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1615083

That said I see you're looking for more of a passive route and you have already made some fine picks.
I can't really comment on the three you're currently eying up though since I've never heard them. My recommendation would be to read a bunch of reviews and see if you can get any comparisons between the speakers you're looking at.

Also concerning the soundcard, does it have a optical output? if so you could simply run that to the receiver and not worry about a upgrade.;)
 
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The onboard has no Optical/Coax out. Just the 3.5mm jacks. I installed a s/pdif I bought and rewired from e bay but its limited to 96k/24bit vs the 192k/24bit of the analog. I dunno if this makes much of a difference. I've used both and the quality sounds about the same.
 
PSB LR1 monitor probably. You want small speakers in this case right?

The digital will sound better with the new speakers btw. You can't hear the difference yet.

Uh, ok actually, look to upgrade your source. Your speakers are not awesome but ok. They will benefit from a better receiver. What you have now stinks.

Budget? Room for a full sized receiver?
 
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True the receiver is digital and not ideal but I don't think it stinks. I do not have room for a full size receiver however if you can find one close in size to my current one I'll give it a look.
 
spaceman said:
http://www.audioadvisor.com/prodinfo.asp?number=CA340R SIL

Something like this Cambridge would be a good, musical receiver with hdmi and a smaller footprint. I would use this via optical out or hdmi from your video card. Try this or something like it before upgrading the speakers.
Click to expand...


That looks nice and with a similar footprint to my current setup, though it is double the height. However that still doesn't tell me why the one I have is bad.
 
SithSolo1 said:
That looks nice and with a similar footprint to my current setup, though it is double the height. However that still doesn't tell me why the one I have is bad.
Click to expand...

It isn't horrible but it is limiting you. B/c it is a digital product from 2004, there have been major changes since then.

If you want to upgrade, that is the part to do it with first.

A soundcard will not result in anything better unless you buy a nice soundcard and a new amp. That is certainly another way to go.
 
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This is what I've been running for over 2 years and I absolutely love it! Although I would also second the PSB options, I have all PSB stuff in my Home Theater and its great for music and movies alike.

Aperion 4B Sealed Bookshelves
Dayton T-Amp
Behringer UCA202 as a USB DAC
Polk PSW250 (I got it really cheap online and it actually sounds great with this setup, you can obviously find a better sub in your price range)
DSCF2842.jpg
 
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+1 for the PSB recommendations

I would replace the panasonic with something like a HK 3390 which should be more than enough for your needs and leave you with enough for pair of PSB Alphas as you can find B stock bookshelves for a little over 200
 
Those PSB Alphas sound nice, as do the Ascend CBM 170 SEs. The Aperions also sound pretty nice and one more I might add out of the top of my head is the Usher s520s. Oh yeah and the KEF Iq10s.

Actually, at $500.00 there are a lot of speakers to consider. As that Knights Templar said in Indy Jones 3, choose wisely.
 
SithSolo1 said:
The onboard has no Optical/Coax out. Just the 3.5mm jacks. I installed a s/pdif I bought and rewired from e bay but its limited to 96k/24bit vs the 192k/24bit of the analog. I dunno if this makes much of a difference. I've used both and the quality sounds about the same.
Click to expand...

That right there is a reason to upgrade the source. The difference b/w my analogue out with my x-fi vs optical into my receiver dac is not a small one. You should hear a huge difference b/w the two.
 
You guys realize that his Panny receiver just has class D amplifiers, right? It's a very well regarded receiver over at AVS Forum, no less:

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=490349
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=483466

I don't think there's any reason at all to upgrade from the Panny if it supplies enough current/voltage to your current speakers or speakers you plan on getting in the very near future. Considering you've got an S/PDIF output from your PC to the receiver, I would say that you should spend all of the money on speakers rather than waste it on unnecessary upgrades to components upstream.
 
Blackbeard Ben said:
You guys realize that his Panny receiver just has class D amplifiers, right? It's a very well regarded receiver over at AVS Forum, no less:

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=490349
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=483466

I don't think there's any reason at all to upgrade from the Panny if it supplies enough current/voltage to your current speakers or speakers you plan on getting in the very near future. Considering you've got an S/PDIF output from your PC to the receiver, I would say that you should spend all of the money on speakers rather than waste it on unnecessary upgrades to components upstream.
Click to expand...

It is a class D amp from 8 years ago. More importantly, it is a dac from that far back. Yes it is ok. However, he doesn't hear any difference b/w that receivers dac and his mobos analogue out? You still think that works.
 
Blackbeard Ben said:
You guys realize that his Panny receiver just has class D amplifiers, right? It's a very well regarded receiver over at AVS Forum, no less:

http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=490349
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=483466

I don't think there's any reason at all to upgrade from the Panny if it supplies enough current/voltage to your current speakers or speakers you plan on getting in the very near future. Considering you've got an S/PDIF output from your PC to the receiver, I would say that you should spend all of the money on speakers rather than waste it on unnecessary upgrades to components upstream.
Click to expand...

I agree with this.
 
I know what the receiver is and was. I had a XR-57 and it was pretty good. Very good for the money. I am just going to reiterate that he doesn't hear a diff b/w onboard analogue and optical. That can't just be the speakers. Something is up with the configuration or the dac sounds the same as onboard analogue. Not good imo. So just address that issue. See if there is something up there before you spend money on speakers.
 
spaceman said:
That right there is a reason to upgrade the source. The difference b/w my analogue out with my x-fi vs optical into my receiver dac is not a small one. You should hear a huge difference b/w the two.
Click to expand...

I completely understand that and I'm not against replacing the receiver. On my previous motherboard there was that night/day difference between analog and digital with this same setup.

On the current mobo I can tell the digital is slightly louder at any given volume than the analog but thats about it. I don't know if it's the receiver, the via vinyl, or the off-brand s/pdif.

I also appreciate the time you and others are taking to help me with my decision. I may not always like unexpected advice but I do accept it and try to learn from it. :)
 
Thanks. We are certainly do have your best interests in mind. You can always just get a decent sound card and use that analogue out.
 
spaceman said:
Thanks. We are certainly do have your best interests in mind. You can always just get a decent sound card and use that analogue out.
Click to expand...

If I get a sound card and use the analog out then it use the DAC on the card and the receiver is just being used as an amp without processing the signal, is this correct?
 
SithSolo1 said:
If I get a sound card and use the analog out then it use the DAC on the card and the receiver is just being used as an amp without processing the signal, is this correct?
Click to expand...

no, its still being used as a pre amp. even in all its "flat" eq and sp settings, its still going to do some processing in the terms of voltage gain, tone control, volume attenuation, and its going to have a big part to do with the "feel" of your sound.

thats my problem with AV recievers. very few really attempt to give the sound a musical "feel" and not incorrectly so, remember they are first and foremost movie watching devices.
Rotel and Marantz are 2 exacmples of companies that actually try....
even some $10,000 9.2 crazy high end digital surround sound x100 every feature in the book Processors can sometimes pail in comparison to a $500 simple 2 channel pre that does not even have bass and treble controls in terms of musicality.
 
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spaceman said:
I know what the receiver is and was. I had a XR-57 and it was pretty good. Very good for the money. I am just going to reiterate that he doesn't hear a diff b/w onboard analogue and optical. That can't just be the speakers. Something is up with the configuration or the dac sounds the same as onboard analogue. Not good imo. So just address that issue. See if there is something up there before you spend money on speakers.
Click to expand...

Why does something have to be wrong for there to be no audible difference between DACs? Onboard audio is better than ever before, he's got a decent onboard solution, and he's comparing to S/PDIF out to his receiver, which undoubtedly has competent DACs. The lack of an audible difference supports any claim as to the inability of any of his components to reveal any differences as much as it supports competence of both DACs - that is, the evidence doesn't contradict the claim but doesn't actually provide any evidence for it. All it means is that he can't hear a difference with that specific system - the cause is still completely unknown, whether that is the amplifier, speakers, or the limitations of his own hearing/humans in general.

These are anecdotal accounts we are talking about, afterall. Given that DACs and amplifiers in modern receivers are generally competent, measure well, and are indistinguishable in blind tests when they measure well enough (which is most of the time) and are operated within their power capabilities, we can make a reasonable assumption with the support of the anecdotal accounts (which in the absence of actual measurements [other than a claimed frequency response of 10Hz-44kHz, ±3dB and respectable 98 dB SNR] but without any anecdotal claims of out-of-the-ordinary [i.e. flawed] performance indicates) that his mid-level receiver is almost certainly competent in DAC and amplifier performance - likely to be indistinguishable in blind testing against other competent DACs and amplifiers that measure well with sufficiently low noise, distortion, and flat frequency response.

So I think the limited evidence we have so far supports the assertion that his speakers are most likely limiting factor here, given that the same competent amplifier is used for both analog and digital inputs, and that both inputs sound the same to him.

At worst, if he buys new speakers and finds that they do reveal a deficiency in the onboard sound compared to the receiver's DAC, he can stick with S/PDIF to the receiver and have confidence that it is competent - because by all indications and unless provided with actual evidence to the the contrary, it is almost certain that it is.

Compare that to speakers, where competence is extremely hard to come by and even the best transducers can only achieve a small fraction of the objective performance of good amplifiers as they are operating in the acoustic and electrical domains rather than exclusively the electrical domain. Upgrading speakers is with 100% certainty going to provide an improvement in sound, unlike "upgrading" from a competent DAC and amplifier.
 
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