Looking for a Sub

Okay, not exactly Computer Audio, but seeing as I have two computers hooked up to the TV it counts.

All right, so I'm looking to add some rumble to my TV viewing experience. As it stands I have a pair of AV30s hooked up to it. Sound comes in from HDMI via my GPU to the TV where it is then sent to the AV30s via Analog. Sounds decent enough for my needs. Frankly, the AV30s surprise me quite a bit with not only the amount of sound, but the actual spectrum they fill up. It is tiny little 3" speaker with a tweeter that is even smaller. But now, as it turns out I'm wanting a little more bottom than what they can provide. The downside is they start to roll off really high, about 90Hz.

I looked at the Velodyne VX-11 and it would work, but I don't really want to deal with speaker wire to either RCA or TRS stereo input personally. I've looked at many companies and found a few that would possibly work, but I just don't know what to really get seeing as there are a lot of loudspeaker manufacturers.

The nitty gritty of it would be something like this. Should be able to take in RCA line level and then output RCA line level as well. Though that might be kinda hard to find and is probably restricting my choices quite a bit. As for price I would like to stay $400, but I can go higher if it will net me a much better sub. Also, if it can be found on Amazon all the better. Really I'm not looking for the absolute best sub that I can buy, I'm looking for one to add some more bottom end to my little AV30s.

No RCA out, but either of these are considered easily the best in the price range.

http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/stf-2.html

http://emotiva.com/ultra_sub10.shtm

Unless you upgrade your monitors/speakers, I dont see why you would want to dish out $400 for a sub. If you are looking for a budget sub with RCA jacks, look at the Dayton subs from Parts Express. I have one that Ive been using with my monitors for a while now.

ThumperSD said:

Unless you upgrade your monitors/speakers, I dont see why you would want to dish out $400 for a sub. If you are looking for a budget sub with RCA jacks, look at the Dayton subs from Parts Express. I have one that Ive been using with my monitors for a while now.

Click to expand...

Simply, he wants a serious sub to convince him to upgrade his AV30s to something a little more capable. Any well researched sub $300 -400 will dominate the soundstage.

Another vote for HSU. However, those little speakers will be overpowered. I would either upgrade to better speakers or maybe look for a baby sub to pair with those speakers. Either way, I would not spend anywhere near $400 for a sub to pair with sub $100 speakers.

brownkc said:

Another vote for HSU. However, those little speakers will be overpowered. I would either upgrade to better speakers or maybe look for a baby sub to pair with those speakers. Either way, I would not spend anywhere near $400 for a sub to pair with sub $100 speakers.

Click to expand...

Pretty much this. Unless you get some new speakers, any decent sub over $100 is going to overpower them. I suppose you could "future proof" your sub purchase and buy new speakers later down the line. But your request for rca in/out is a tough one. I can't recall ever seeing a sub with both in/out rca. Some will have in a long with speaker wire and sub-in coax. But I've never seen one with rca out. If you want to future proof your sub purchase, get either of the ones LeninGHOLA recommended. Most highly recommended subs in the price range that I've read about.

I'm shocked to hear all this talk about the possibility of "overpowering" speakers.

Aside from DIY, one would have to pay a bit to obtain a good, clean low-end. Great bass can add so much to the experience, cheap speakers or not.

Sub calibration is key, no matter what. It's much better to have a sub that provides the headroom, over one that will clip/ bottom-out on a demanding scene. A properly dialed-in sub - no matter the size/ SPL capability - will hardly be localizable.

Unless you're a sub-aficinado, it'd be wiser to spend a bit more to get a decent sub that could very well last you for much longer. Pick a good location for the sub, run a 100hz crossover, and you should be fine.

As an alternative, also consider the Allison AL10 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=309-177&FTR=al10). Its dimension and specs closely match those of the Dayton Elite 10 (no longer sold), which is a derivative of the HSU STF-2. At $175, it's pretty much a steal at this point. An auditioner of the Dayton ES10 had a hard time discerning the difference between it, and the HSU VTF-2.

12andy said:

As an alternative, also consider the Allison AL10 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=309-177&FTR=al10). Its dimension and specs closely match those of the Dayton Elite 10 (no longer sold), which is a derivative of the HSU STF-2. At $175, it's pretty much a steal at this point. An auditioner of the Dayton ES10 had a hard time discerning the difference between it, and the HSU VTF-2(typo?).

Click to expand...

That's not exactly true. The elite 10 had some influence from Dr. Hsu, but it was not a derivate of the STF-2. Different, lower power amp, different driver, not as tuned for the enclosure, front firing, different porting etc. The Alison is even lesser in comparison to the elite 10.

The STF-2 is a more powerful sub in every way and the VTF-2(typo?) you mentioned is much, much more powerful.

I had to be careful and not use the word clone, hence settled for 'derived'.

Many were speculating that the spec differences (from the obvious, to the minute) could be there for legal reasons.

125w vs 200w: In the most extreme of cases, this should only translate to about 1-2 dB of difference.

Drivers: Agreed. Hard to tell unless both are pulled out and measured to obtain T/S parameters.

Tuning: Not "as tuned"? They are all tuned to 25hz, thus will have similar dropoff characteristics as they are ported.

Firing/ porting: Won't make much of a difference - if any, based on their designs. Perhaps the lower ports may introduce more reinforcement at the tuning freq (impossible to tell by ear for sure, though)?

My apologies re: the model mention. I meant the VTF-1, rather.

By tuned, I mean tuned to the SPL of the driver, whether that be extra bracing or higher quality mdf. Also, see the specs for the Hsu are rated at 25hz +- 2db meaning rolloff would happen at a bit lower frequency.

As far as the amp goes... it has a lot to do with the quality of the components used.

That is not to say your suggestion was bad at all, especially for the price, just that these subs are in a bit of a different class.

Update: I actually meant the STF-2, per my last line!

Please see this guy's impressions here (hint of salt, as always) - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14915280#post14915280.

We can get a general idea of enclosure strength by weight, assuming boxed-form.

I just wish someone had all three to compare with, despite being redundant. I have a strong feeling that they perform so similarly to each other, that shelling out more for the HSU might be a waste. My Allison's cone looks the same as the ES10's, so I'm assuming that they're the same. Same driver, same enclosure (barring the locations of the port/ driver on the baffle), same amp(?) with variable phase adjustment... is it safe to assume the same sub, pretty much? Hmm...

I'm probably wrong, and should be wrong... but am hoping that the coincidences actually mean something.

I detect a fair bit of disrelish towards my little speakers. Frankly considering what and how small they are the sound coming from them is actually quite respectable. I'm being honest here. I own a set Adam A7Xs so it is not like I don't appreciate sound or whatnot. Though truth be told I would not mind getting some bookshelves and an amp. But more than one problem manifests itself with that.

Really I cannot listen at high levels nor do I really have any inclination to. Though that issue has to do with my current living situation more than anything. Really I'm just wanting something to add some low end for movie viewing and gaming.

I also notice that in my first post I mistyped as I meant to say, "I would like to stay under $400." I'm not going for broke here. But if I can get a sub that will fill my tiny little place with some low end and doesn't cost $400 then all is well for me.

At any rate thanks for the suggestion guys. Definitely be looking at them. Also, in general I was looking at Parts Express in general and noticed their speaker kits, and did have a quick few questions:
1) How are the more expensive kits in terms of quality? Just looking for some impressions.

2) Would a T Amp be suggested to power them? Serious question because as much as I would love to go full 5.1 I really just do not have the space for everything. I've got some space, but not as much as I'd like.

3) Are there more detailed specs floating around regarding them? I noticed some give me power handling and some don't. That would be useful info to know if I do decide at some point to go that route.

Call Parts Express for more detailed info, they're always pretty helpful. Anyway, if you're talking about replacing your AV30's with a DIY kit, yes a T amp would work pretty well, depending on the specs of the speaker. I'd hold off on buying any mains until you see how well a sub matches your current setup. There's nothing wrong with the AV30's, they are meant to be directional, which means there is a "sweet spot" where they sound best. Usually you'll want them at ear level, facing inwards to where you sit like 2 points of a triangle. Outside of that range (in another room, or at the other end of the room), you'll be hearing the sub more than the monitors as these subs do not produce directional sound (which is a good thing).


As far as the sub goes, the ones I linked are pretty linear when it comes to sound pressure level vs. frequency. This means they don't really have any notes in their frequency range that they can't play smoothly, even at highest rated volumes. They will also play very well at lower volume levels to avoid any problems with the neighbors.

As for pre-packaged subwoofer solutions, I'm not of much help:

The Emotiva and Hsu options look acceptable... elemental designs has some decent options, but I tend to avoid down-firing and sealed subs...

If you're going to build a speaker from a Parts Express kit, then I'd post the design(s) you're considering, and other relevant details: (size limitations, power limitations, desired frequency range coverage, desired sustained SPL, room-size, listening distance).

The Dayton Reference series is generally excellent (and the Dayton Reference HF makes an EXCELLENT DIY subwoofer option, outclassing even the Peerless XXLS and TC2+ - there isn't much that can be proven objectively better). You'd have to construct the enclosure and add an inexpensive amp.

Alternative Dayton-Reference (or similar) DIY simple 2-way speaker designs exist (full plans / relatively easy schematics for the crossover options) and have been physically tested (by microphone and ear: distortion, frequency response, and subjective listening) and modeled (software), and the parts are available at Parts Express and/or Madisound and/or similar stores.

Obviously some of these options require a few hours of woodworking...or perhaps a chance to befriend the neighborhood guy who always seems to be using his tablesaw... (yes, I've done this).

Op what receiver or with what are you going to drive the sub with?

LeninGHOLA,
I know all about the Equilateral triangle for listening and keeping the speakers at ear level. While my little AV30s aren't a prefect triangle or not perfectly ear level per se my viewing chair is pretty much as optimal I can get without filling my space up with speaker stands which is something I don't really feel like doing right now considering my space.

Archmage,
Well, I dunno if I get a hold of MDF for a cabinet, but I do know someone with woodworking tools, so building a cabinet might be an issue or it might not. Just depends on certain things, but honestly I'd just rather buy a prebuilt sub for the sake of my own convenience.

My room size? <2000ft³. I also have to live in this space and I don't really have much of a choice. Realistic listening distance isn't more than 6ft. I don't need a whole lot of SPL. I couldn't tell you exact SPL as that isn't something I can judge without a meter. Something I don't have but have been meaning to buy. But I can say that I don't listen to stuff very loud often.

What I mainly meant by the speaker kits was some of the bookshelves as I really like sealed speakers. But, I'll start looking at their sub designs. Looks like I might have to be doing some soldering But that is just something I'd be looking at. I'll still probably end up buying the sub first and then going from there.

Spooony,
I don't have a receiver to drive the sub with. But if need be I could construct a simple external crossover and feed the sub the LPFed signal and the speakers the HPFed. Though, really that is kind of a dumb thing to do if I go any higher than first order. Even at that it isn't ideal to use a serial setup with I'd pretty much have to do anyway.

Thanks again for the advice guys!

I have a eD A2-300 in the FS section. I don't think you would be able to beat it for the price.

96redformula,
That is actually very very tempting. But due to where I live getting it would be a whole other story and very difficult. But whoever does will more than likely be very pleased.

12andy said:

I just wish someone had all three to compare with, despite being redundant. I have a strong feeling that they perform so similarly to each other, that shelling out more for the HSU might be a waste. My Allison's cone looks the same as the ES10's, so I'm assuming that they're the same. Same driver, same enclosure (barring the locations of the port/ driver on the baffle), same amp(?) with variable phase adjustment... is it safe to assume the same sub, pretty much? Hmm...

I'm probably wrong, and should be wrong... but am hoping that the coincidences actually mean something.

Click to expand...

I have the Atlantic Tech version and it is an impressive sub for the money.

12andy said:

I had to be careful and not use the word clone, hence settled for 'derived'.

Many were speculating that the spec differences (from the obvious, to the minute) could be there for legal reasons.

125w vs 200w: In the most extreme of cases, this should only translate to about 1-2 dB of difference.

Click to expand...

You forgot the distance there

Xolos said:

LeninGHOLA,
I know all about the Equilateral triangle for listening and keeping the speakers at ear level. While my little AV30s aren't a prefect triangle or not perfectly ear level per se my viewing chair is pretty much as optimal I can get without filling my space up with speaker stands which is something I don't really feel like doing right now considering my space.

Archmage,
Well, I dunno if I get a hold of MDF for a cabinet, but I do know someone with woodworking tools, so building a cabinet might be an issue or it might not. Just depends on certain things, but honestly I'd just rather buy a prebuilt sub for the sake of my own convenience.

My room size? <2000ft³. I also have to live in this space and I don't really have much of a choice. Realistic listening distance isn't more than 6ft. I don't need a whole lot of SPL. I couldn't tell you exact SPL as that isn't something I can judge without a meter. Something I don't have but have been meaning to buy. But I can say that I don't listen to stuff very loud often.

What I mainly meant by the speaker kits was some of the bookshelves as I really like sealed speakers. But, I'll start looking at their sub designs. Looks like I might have to be doing some soldering But that is just something I'd be looking at. I'll still probably end up buying the sub first and then going from there.

Spooony,
I don't have a receiver to drive the sub with. But if need be I could construct a simple external crossover and feed the sub the LPFed signal and the speakers the HPFed. Though, really that is kind of a dumb thing to do if I go any higher than first order. Even at that it isn't ideal to use a serial setup with I'd pretty much have to do anyway.

Thanks again for the advice guys!

Click to expand...

Oh coz i was thinking about twin 18" Elemental Designs A7-900 or a Paradigm Reference Signature SUB 2 but nevermind
Still if your curious
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subw...digm-reference-signature-sub-2-subwoofer.html

Now thats a sub

As long as we're mentioning prohibitively expensive subwoofers (and yes, that Paradigm sub is impressive):

A DIY perspective on what is considered impressive bass - this is what I like (except I'd try to distribute the bass sources throughout the listening environment to limit room modes - subscribing to a partial Earl Gedde's view on bass):

- http://www.aespeakers.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1624 (IB speakers are housed in a manifold. The outlet is the listening room. The "enclosure" is the attic. AE subs don't require large amounts of power.

- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN5cuRzvTGc&feature=related - another application using the same woofers, a set of vertical Infinite Baffle manifolds. He drives all 8 using a single EP2500 amp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKxxnFCZWq4 - The AV15 high-excursion series does best using Passive Radiators... or vented alignments...

Switching over to the TC Sounds LMS 5400 Ultra 18" Subwoofer (absolutely Monstrous):

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ounds-lms-5400-18-2x18-page-ranking-200l.html - Here a realistic usage of this subwoofer and its DOMINATING distortion performance...although I have seen some equally (or even more) impressive results from the IB15 AE-subs mentioned above. The AV15-X woofer mentioned above is used in a similar config.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/for...ojects/9281-4-18-5400s-8-passives-wow-33.html - Here is a RIDICULOUS application of (4) LMS 5400 18" subs, and (8) passive radiators divided into 2 Bass-towers. This unit would be very expensive because each Sub is $750-$1100, the PR's will be another $100 each (8 of them), and then these subs are power-hungry as hell (amps)...and they'll require a custom electrical system and some HOUSE-BRACING (although all the setups mentioned would be horrible in an untreated house).

Thread Relevance: The Hometheatershack forum has some practical/useful information even for those NOT interested in DIY-audio: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/home-audio-subwoofers/index2.html (sometimes they'll discuss options at more modest budgets) - I saw a thread concerning the Emotiva Ultra series... and even BIC-subs...

Spooony said:

You forgot the distance there

Click to expand...

Indeed I did. It's been awhile since I've done research on sub-related stuff, I'll admit.

From a typical distance (which is what, 10 - 15'?), how much would the wattage difference make?

Just turn the volume down on the sub, problem solved. You still get good, clean bass.