Space sim games?

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maxiedaniels

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I'm curious - how come it seems there is no great space sim games out? I'm talking about first-person, in a ship, great graphics, being able to get out of the seat and walk around the ship, land and go onto planets, etc.

Is it just too big of a scope for computers to handle?
 
The genre is pretty much dead, so there's not a lot of incentive to put a lot of money into a big project.
 
Closest thing you'll find, in order of relevance:

1. Freespace 2 Source Code Project: graphically enhanced FS2 with new missions and assets
2. X3: Reunion and Terran Conflict: a modern version of Privateer with heavy emphasis on trade/building and a high learning curve
3. EVE Online: epic space MMO in a massive universe with great PVP, but combat is not first person mode and learning curve is steep, and it's an MMO
 
dingobiatch said:
I'm curious - how come it seems there is no great space sim games out? I'm talking about first-person, in a ship, great graphics, being able to get out of the seat and walk around the ship, land and go onto planets, etc.

Is it just too big of a scope for computers to handle?
Click to expand...

It´s the strangest and most tragic thing that the space sim genre died. I would never have placed my bets on that in 95.

The technology is there, seamless travel between ship and planets, already possible 5 years ago. Problem is creating all the content. These games require huge teams of artist and long production schedules. And for some odd reason they are deemed too narrow for investors to flock to.

Personally I am still hoping for Bioware to some day pick up this genre again. They have the scope and ability (plus popularity) to pull something like this off.
 
Matrices said:
Closest thing you'll find, in order of relevance:

1. Freespace 2 Source Code Project: graphically enhanced FS2 with new missions and assets
2. X3: Reunion and Terran Conflict: a modern version of Privateer with heavy emphasis on trade/building and a high learning curve
3. EVE Online: epic space MMO in a massive universe with great PVP, but combat is not first person mode and learning curve is steep, and it's an MMO
Click to expand...
Not a fan of Freespace or Eve, but I LOVED Privateer.

Will definitely check out X3, although reviews are kinda "meh", but not bad:
http://www.gamerankings.com/pc/927012-x3-reunion/index.html
http://www.gamerankings.com/pc/944742-x3-terran-conflict/index.html
 
Mass Effect series, well kinda. Universal Combat from what I have heard is probably closer.

If you want this in an actual open world, akin to something like Oblivion, GTA or etc, the most likely issue is in terms of content. While the technology is there, the budget required to make something of that size with intricacy would be very unlikely to be profitable.

The only thing I could think of would be if an MMO eventually scaled up to that scope, due to the constant revenue stream.
 
The genre killed itself.

I know some people don't wanna hear it, but a lot of your "space sims" were overall the same thing. A forgettable story wrapped around the usual formula of you owning a small ship and then going out and fighting pirates/ships, trading from port to port to raise money, etc. There wasn't a huge difference in the underlying basic formula for many space sims.

I WISH they would have innovated more, had a space sim where you actually controlled a PERSON and not a ship. Where you would walk laround inside your ship, have a crew (or not, depending on the size/type of ship).

Allow you to walk outside of your ship in a space suit, hghjack other ships/go inside them by certain means. Take over space stations. Fly down onto planets through the atmosphere.

Instead it was always 99% of the time a ship as your avatar with the same go "kill shit, trade shit, get money, here's a cheap storyline." It got old and many people grew tired of it.

It's the same with the "Pirate" themed games, Akella's excellent ones and so one, same basic formula spanning the genre, don't see many of those games anymore either.

One of my favorite space sims though was Independence War. It was one of the few that actually used physics (so if you turned while going iforward you still went in the direction you were going until you used your thrusters, etc).
 
Stiler said:
The genre killed itself.

I know some people don't wanna hear it, but a lot of your "space sims" were overall the same thing. A forgettable story wrapped around the usual formula of you owning a small ship and then going out and fighting pirates/ships, trading from port to port to raise money, etc. There wasn't a huge difference in the underlying basic formula for many space sims.
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That's not the reason at all, actually. The formula for ANY genre is the same: FPS, shoot; RTS, click fest; RPG, inventory browse, etc.

The FIRST problem is the same one that killed off the amazing Mech combat genre and the sim/RTS hybrid genre (Uprising/Battlezone): joystick requirement and too much complexity for 12-year-old console gamers.

The interesting thing, though, is that it doesn't have to be this way anymore: console user base has expanded to include almost everyone and a game controller is not that much worse than a joystick unless you include a crazy flight model like I-War.

Which brings us to the SECOND problem: investing in a huge SP world populated with a hell of a lot of content. That is just too much of a gamble for most publishers to risk, so the only games we've seen like that are RPG welded to TPS: i.e., Mass Effect series. And that's it.
 
Stiler said:
The genre killed itself.

I know some people don't wanna hear it, but a lot of your "space sims" were overall the same thing. A forgettable story wrapped around the usual formula of you owning a small ship and then going out and fighting pirates/ships, trading from port to port to raise money, etc. There wasn't a huge difference in the underlying basic formula for many space sims.
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Not that I disagree that more role playing shouldn't have been included in the genre, but thats really no different than first person shooters, which have been mostly a lame story involving a guy who has been wronged running around picking up weapons and shooting people, half the time in a WW2 or post apocalyptic setting.

Here's a funny review of X3 I just stumbled upon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi8n6uN091E

Star Trek Enterprise was also the first Star Trek series to be prematurely canceled, and generally speaking it seems that people just got burned out on it as for a while it seemed like everything was just space sim after space sim.
 
Matrices said:
The FIRST problem is the same one that killed off the amazing Mech combat genre and the sim/RTS hybrid genre (Uprising/Battlezone): joystick requirement and too much complexity for 12-year-old console gamers.
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Freelancer was specifically designed to be controlled with a mouse and keyboard, and in fact didn't even support joysticks. Space sims certainly did not need to have a joystick-based control scheme.
 
Zero82z said:
Freelancer was specifically designed to be controlled with a mouse and keyboard, and in fact didn't even support joysticks. Space sims certainly did not need to have a joystick-based control scheme.
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Lol, your example of success is Freelancer? That game was universally panned by gamers. It was a hollow shell of what it should have been and the mouse-only support was a desperate and miserable attempt at sustaining the genre sans joystick.

The results speak for themselves.
 
Freelancer was universally panned? I personally loved the game, and I know plenty of other people who did as well. It may not have lived up to all its ambitions, but it was still a great game.
 
The game was OK but the *gameplay* is far too simple. Point and turn and shoot. It's lifeless. I tried it recently, alongside FS2 spruced up via the Open Source Project, and there's no comparison. I don't know of a single person who enjoyed Freespace who also enjoyed Freelancer.

You think MS is the kind of company that just passes over profitable successes? Where the hell is Freelancer 2 then? Right. Game, set, match.
 
That's because Freelancer isn't a space combat game, it's an open-world game set in space. There's a lot more to it than just fighting with other ships. Complaining that Freelancer isn't like Freespace is like complaining that GTA isn't like Gears of War.
 
If you haven't yet checked out Orbiter make sure to check it out, its a free "space simulator" in every respect. not as much a game as a study sim but very fun if you like that kindof thing. I used to spend hours just getting into orbit and then trying to land the shuttle :)
 
Zero82z said:
That's because Freelancer isn't a space combat game, it's an open-world game set in space. There's a lot more to it than just fighting with other ships. Complaining that Freelancer isn't like Freespace is like complaining that GTA isn't like Gears of War.
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That's a complete cop-out and you know it. It's the kind of crap argument that someone only makes on the internet. This thread is ABOUT space combat games, the point I made was ABOUT the disappearance of space combat games, so why the hell would you even bring up Freelancer if you weren't talking about...space combat games?

Also, that's all Freelancer was - a space combat game - other than than light trading and exploring, which was so bad that it became known as a joke: "I don't run this place, but I have arrangement with the people who do..." Furthermore, no one says that Elite and Privateer and X3 aren't in the same genre as IW or FS games just because some were open world and some weren't - they're all primarily space combat games, not just "games that happen to take place in space" which is absurd.

So please, don't insult yourself, let alone me.

Freelancer was an attempt at sustaining the genre without the joystick, and as I've already said twice, it failed because as you can see the genre is dead. Pretending suddenl;y that it wasn't a space combat game is ridiculous red herring.
 
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Well, there's not much else I can say other than that I disagree with you. I think Freelancer is a very good game, and I know there are a lot of other people who share that opinion.
 
X3 is great. More for intellectuals rather than CoD types. When I used to play it I did more of the trade thing and built up my economy. After a nice cash flow I would build an uber fleet and go nuts on the Boron. It's a sandbox game after the rather forgettable story. You need to have a goal of what you want to do in this game. Otherwise you won't know what you should be doing.
 
It seems a lot of people here want the RPG elements. I must be one of the few who wants another "simple" space combat game like Freespace or Tie Fighter. :(
 
Matrices said:
That's not the reason at all, actually. The formula for ANY genre is the same: FPS, shoot; RTS, click fest; RPG, inventory browse, etc.

The FIRST problem is the same one that killed off the amazing Mech combat genre and the sim/RTS hybrid genre (Uprising/Battlezone): joystick requirement and too much complexity for 12-year-old console gamers.

The interesting thing, though, is that it doesn't have to be this way anymore: console user base has expanded to include almost everyone and a game controller is not that much worse than a joystick unless you include a crazy flight model like I-War.

Which brings us to the SECOND problem: investing in a huge SP world populated with a hell of a lot of content. That is just too much of a gamble for most publishers to risk, so the only games we've seen like that are RPG welded to TPS: i.e., Mass Effect series. And that's it.
Click to expand...

Within each genre you can have many different types of games. That use different formula's/styles.

Sure at the moment The Call of Duty and copies are rampant.

However let me ask you, CoD vs Crysis vs Stalker, all fps games but all quite different from each other in terms of their structure and how they play.

RTS - Total was vs Starcraft vs Civ, all VERY different types of games.

RPG - Dragon Age vs Oblivion vs Mass Effect, again qutie different types of games.

You see each genre has variety, it's open so that you can play different games within each feeling a different experience, they dont' all use the same "Framework/formula" as the other.

However with space sims back in the day they just developed into following the same basic formula, there wasn't a huge variety outside of looks/storyline. It was you in a small ship, going around taking bounties/pirating/trading to get money, to get bigger ships, with an often non-memorable tacked on storyline. It got stuck ini the same formula for the basic genre as a whole, not a lot of variety.

It's the same with MMO's these days, the genre is being dominated by the same generic formula (EQ style) whereas the variety isnt' really there outside of that from AAA publishers (minus guild wars).

Look at the Adventure genre, same thing happened (though it is still alive, and I still enjoy them). You had the entire genre following the usual point and click style of gameplay or the first person "still frame" style (A la myst), there wasn't any variety really in terms of the underlying experience. Then recently you have some people trying to bring it back and in a different new way, like the recent Heavy Rain (from Quantiic dream, who made Fahrenheit/indigo prophecy before that), both adventure games but very different from either the point and click style or your first-person still frame.
 
Stiler said:
Look at the Adventure genre, same thing happened (though it is still alive, and I still enjoy them). You had the entire genre following the usual point and click style of gameplay or the first person "still frame" style (A la myst), there wasn't any variety really in terms of the underlying experience. Then recently you have some people trying to bring it back and in a different new way, like the recent Heavy Rain (from Quantiic dream, who made Fahrenheit/indigo prophecy before that), both adventure games but very different from either the point and click style or your first-person still frame.
Click to expand...

I think that is why i liked Experiment 112 it was a nice twist on adventure gaming.
 
mak10z said:
Check out Evochron Mercenary its pretty good for a privateer type game.
Click to expand...

I second this one. It is absolutely amazing. Only costs $30.

Nice graphics...not Crysis level, but it looks quite pretty.

Ship customization-pick parts and arrange/scale them anyway you see fit.

Newtonian flight model (can switch to IDS mode that is similar to the flight model used in every other space sim out there, ie Freespace, etc.)

Seamless atmospheric entry into planets. If you see something you can travel there. Space is seamlessly connected. Jumpgates connect systems (like X3), however, open space still exists between systems, ie...you can travel between systems without using the jumpgates but it will take a loooooong time. In fact uncharted systems are hidden out there..there is even a mapping project within the community dedicated to mapping the entire universe(It's big).
 
Stiler said:
The genre killed itself.

I know some people don't wanna hear it, but a lot of your "space sims" were overall the same thing. A forgettable story wrapped around the usual formula of you owning a small ship and then going out and fighting pirates/ships, trading from port to port to raise money, etc. There wasn't a huge difference in the underlying basic formula for many space sims.
Click to expand...

I think that this is a totally bullshit analysis. Pretty much everything that you wrote could be applied to FPS ( first person shooter ) games ( from the year ~2000 onwards ).

What I noticed was that after Homeworld ( 1999 ) and Shogun: Total War ( 2000 ) were released, innovative, niche games by visionary, independant companies, who cared more about the quality of the game, than the bottom line, finally went bankrupt. PC gaming started to go on a decline:

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/homeworld/index.html

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/shoguntotalwar/index.html


Post year 2000, PC games started becoming homogonized, high budget, mass market, appealing to the lowest common denominator.

During the golden era of gaming ( ~1995 to ~2000 ) PC games were developed by visionaries, for nerds in basements:

Top PC games of all time ( according to Gamespot reviews ). Gamespot was acquired around 2001 and started hyperinflating review ratings.

http://www.gamespot.com/games.html?...=all&date_filter=all&sortdir=asc&official=all


Fast forward to 2010 and after building a new gaming rig around an i-860, 480 gtx and reading irrationally exuberant reviews about Mass Effect 1, I ended up fucking face-palming myself at the consolified FPS aspects of the game ( kudos to the writers who set the bar really high though )...

The bar is so low that people don't even know what constitutes a good game anymore. Sad.

Vivendi CEO Speaks Out Against Gaming Homogenization
http://www.gamernode.com/news/877-vivendi-ceo-speaks-out-against-gaming-homogenization/index.html

Game Stash: The Death of PC Gaming
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/art...-stash/7846-Game-Stash-The-Death-of-PC-Gaming

PC gaming is dying:
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&r...7DBCA&q=PC+gaming+is+dying&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=


Epic games from the golden era:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System_Shock

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_orion_2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freespace_2

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_and_Magic_VI:_The_Mandate_of_Heaven

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thief:_The_Dark_Project

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_(video_game)




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Looking_Glass_Studios

"A significant number of Looking Glass personnel were MIT graduates."
 
Yep, sounds like the OP wants freelancer^1000, which is something i've dreamed of ever since i played freelancer
 
Ducman69 said:
Not a fan of Freespace or Eve, but I LOVED Privateer.

Will definitely check out X3, although reviews are kinda "meh", but not bad:
http://www.gamerankings.com/pc/927012-x3-reunion/index.html
http://www.gamerankings.com/pc/944742-x3-terran-conflict/index.html
Click to expand...

DEFINITELY get Terran Conflict. I picked up X3-Reunion a couple of years ago and found it overwhelming. It was very difficult for me to make money EVEN with guides. I still put around 60 hours in but eventually gave up. However. I will definitely be going back to it after having bought Terran Conflict in the steam xmas sales. Love it. Much easier to get into than Reunion since i found it easier to make money and therefore easier to play. So will be able to take what i learnt to Reunion and hopefully play it properly.

If you do pick it up a word of warning. DO NOT do what i did and start a custom game. You get a few characters to choose from at the beginning and i assumed custom game was the same as custom character. Turns out that after spending 150 hours exploring and setting up a great business empire and amassing a large fleet capable of taking on anything the game could throw at me, the custom game disables the story arcs. Its only for modders to use to test their mods.

Gutted. Still, i started again and am 40 hours into one of the standard characters.

BUY IT!
 
I am still playing Wing Commander I every day.

I have it on my netbook. It still surprises me how engrossed I am in the lives of the people of the Tiger's Claw despite the simplicity of the game.
 
MrAgmoore said:
[a post that made me very, very sad for the state of gaming today]
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Seeing as how making high-quality games is unprofitable, maybe we could petition the National Endowment for the Arts to commission some good games being made.

It seems like corporations won't touch anything that won't sell to the masses like crazy.

I love food analogies for video games, but this is where they are incongruous. With food, a restaurant selling higher quality food that less people will buy can still succeed, generally by charging more for the food. But good luck selling an epic along the lines of a modern Planescape Torment for $90. Maybe while the government is handing out money for art, they could toss some toward video games too.
 
fattypants said:
Seeing as how making high-quality games is unprofitable, maybe we could petition the National Endowment for the Arts to commission some good games being made.

It seems like corporations won't touch anything that won't sell to the masses like crazy.

I love food analogies for video games, but this is where they are incongruous. With food, a restaurant selling higher quality food that less people will buy can still succeed, generally by charging more for the food. But good luck selling an epic along the lines of a modern Planescape Torment for $90. Maybe while the government is handing out money for art, they could toss some toward video games too.
Click to expand...

Won't happen, kids actually want to play video games, so there is still a market, but it goes along with the dumbing down of our youth, we get dumber games to go along with that. My 14 year old goes into fits when I try to get him to play something worthwhile, he would rather sit on Mine Craft, and make obscene sculptures with his stupid friends or play the flavor of the moment FPS so he can piss everyone off by being stupid and obscene on there.

RE: Freelancer, Freelancer was a fun game, for the story, but once you finished that part, its a dead universe, very sterile feeling, and no real goals to keep going, that was its downfall for me. Having a fighter with Level 10 guns is great, but what am I gonna do with the damn thing?
 
worth mentioning as the graphics are pretty good and flight sim is challenging,

the tomorrow war
 
I was hooked on freelancer for many many earth months. A remake would be bliss.
 
It was mentioned several times already, but I also want to chime in and say how awesome Evochron Mercenary is. What instantly sold me on this game was the atmospheric entry into any planet. Also impressive is that it's made by one single guy, and it looks and plays great.

Another thing to consider is EVE Online. With the upcoming 'Incarna' expansion, you will be able to get out of your ship and walk around. I think atmospheric entry into planets is also in the works, there are videos on youtube of early demos. Maybe Jumpgate Evolution will be released one day?
 
Etherea1 said:
It was mentioned several times already, but I also want to chime in and say how awesome Evochron Mercenary is. What instantly sold me on this game was the atmospheric entry into any planet. Also impressive is that it's made by one single guy, and it looks and plays great.

Another thing to consider is EVE Online. With the upcoming 'Incarna' expansion, you will be able to get out of your ship and walk around. I think atmospheric entry into planets is also in the works, there are videos on youtube of early demos. Maybe Jumpgate Evolution will be released one day?
Click to expand...

I've been playing EVE on and off since late 2008 and I love the pvp in that game. I don't mean the large fleet battles but small gang skirmishes. I'm usually a solo pvp'er most of the time though, and sometimes you get really good fights and sometimes you just get blobbed. The only thing that keeps me from playing it consistently is the grind for isk. Isk runs everything in that game and without devoting hours and hours to making isk you can't fund your pvp habits or anything else for that matter.
 
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