Mac Pro case

Sir_Poop_Alot said:
The mac cases probably made in China/Taiwan anways... just like the Lian Li. We all know that the iphones are made in China :p With deductive reasoning they should have similar built quality :)
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Fiat is made in Italy, and so is Ferrari and Lambourghini.

China and Taiwan have made their names as manufacturers based almost entirely on cost. Building and manufacturing there costs a fraction of what it costs here due to the cost of labor differences. Because of that, the nature of most manufacturing in the region is "let's get the costs down any way we can" and they don't usually focus on the same nitpicky quality things.

A great example is the HX series PSUs we launched in 2006, the HX520 and HX620. We went to Seasonic to get them built and we specified stuff like 105C Japanese capacitors. They looked at us like we were nuts. "It's going to cost more" was what we kept hearing. They weren't really fond of the idea. There are tons of good Chinese/Taiwanese caps, they claimed. And to some degree, they were right. But we made the decision for a specific reason, and at the end of the day it didn't cost THAT much more to do it. I think it was less than $1 per unit to upgrade all the caps to 105C Japanese caps. With HX1000, we did it again with the solid-state caps we requested. Did it make a significant difference to the end-user? Probably not. But CWT was again dumbfounded at the request due to the fact that it would add costs.

Apple may have manufacturing in China but that doesn't explain the quality of their parts. Your hardware is only as good as your Quality Control engineering team is. Apple's fairly infamous for being super controlling on their contract manufacturers from a leaks standpoint to a quality standpoint. I heard a rumor that when they introduced the new unibody Macbook Pro, they basically had machines designed from the ground up to build the chassis, and they bought something like 50 or 100 of these machines, which must have cost in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars each.

But then again, even though Apple is only, what, 10% of the computer market, they're still WAY larger than the DIY builder market, which is like 3% of all computer users at the highest estimates I've heard.

Which means that even the best selling computer case at Newegg (if you go by reviews it might be something like the Antec 900) probably doesn't sell anywhere near the quantity of the worst-selling Apple product (due to its price, likely the Mac Pro).

So it'd be a lot easier for Apple to go to Foxconn or whoever and say "We want you to build this chassis to this spec using these machines and we're only going to sell 20,000 a month" as opposed to, say, Corsair going to Foxconn and asking them to build the exact same thing and promising them 10% of those sales, at best. Apple might pay $250 for each chassis, while we'd have to pay probably twice that just to buy it. Add on margins for Corsair and then again for the retailer, you're looking at a $1000 computer case, at best.

Anyway, it's a combination of economics of scale and the leverage of large, multi-billion dollar companies compared to companies a fraction of that size. Apple can make or break the year for Foxconn with manufacturing. Corsair, even though we're one of the biggest players in the PC DIY market, couldn't. So why would a manufacturer of cases bend over backwards to build something so complex and difficult when the volume isn't there? It's much easier for them to just use their existing machines, processes, and people to make something in the same way they're used to making it.

That being said, if a Mac Pro chassis is a 10 for build quality, there are a few of us in the 9 range. Which costs a fraction of building a 10.
 
If that Mac Pro case is a 10, then I'd say the best build-quality PC case gets like a 7 or 6. :)

Seriously, that's ok by me....and that's partly why I don't own a MAC. Why overbuild a case and have basically zero upgrade path with that case? Even worse is to pay for that sucker.
 
Redbeard said:
Fiat is made in Italy, and so is Ferrari and Lambourghini.

China and Taiwan have made their names as manufacturers based almost entirely on cost. Building and manufacturing there costs a fraction of what it costs here due to the cost of labor differences. Because of that, the nature of most manufacturing in the region is "let's get the costs down any way we can" and they don't usually focus on the same nitpicky quality things.

A great example is the HX series PSUs we launched in 2006, the HX520 and HX620. We went to Seasonic to get them built and we specified stuff like 105C Japanese capacitors. They looked at us like we were nuts. "It's going to cost more" was what we kept hearing. They weren't really fond of the idea. There are tons of good Chinese/Taiwanese caps, they claimed. And to some degree, they were right. But we made the decision for a specific reason, and at the end of the day it didn't cost THAT much more to do it. I think it was less than $1 per unit to upgrade all the caps to 105C Japanese caps. With HX1000, we did it again with the solid-state caps we requested. Did it make a significant difference to the end-user? Probably not. But CWT was again dumbfounded at the request due to the fact that it would add costs.

Apple may have manufacturing in China but that doesn't explain the quality of their parts. Your hardware is only as good as your Quality Control engineering team is. Apple's fairly infamous for being super controlling on their contract manufacturers from a leaks standpoint to a quality standpoint. I heard a rumor that when they introduced the new unibody Macbook Pro, they basically had machines designed from the ground up to build the chassis, and they bought something like 50 or 100 of these machines, which must have cost in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars each.

But then again, even though Apple is only, what, 10% of the computer market, they're still WAY larger than the DIY builder market, which is like 3% of all computer users at the highest estimates I've heard.

Which means that even the best selling computer case at Newegg (if you go by reviews it might be something like the Antec 900) probably doesn't sell anywhere near the quantity of the worst-selling Apple product (due to its price, likely the Mac Pro).

So it'd be a lot easier for Apple to go to Foxconn or whoever and say "We want you to build this chassis to this spec using these machines and we're only going to sell 20,000 a month" as opposed to, say, Corsair going to Foxconn and asking them to build the exact same thing and promising them 10% of those sales, at best. Apple might pay $250 for each chassis, while we'd have to pay probably twice that just to buy it. Add on margins for Corsair and then again for the retailer, you're looking at a $1000 computer case, at best.

Anyway, it's a combination of economics of scale and the leverage of large, multi-billion dollar companies compared to companies a fraction of that size. Apple can make or break the year for Foxconn with manufacturing. Corsair, even though we're one of the biggest players in the PC DIY market, couldn't. So why would a manufacturer of cases bend over backwards to build something so complex and difficult when the volume isn't there? It's much easier for them to just use their existing machines, processes, and people to make something in the same way they're used to making it.

That being said, if a Mac Pro chassis is a 10 for build quality, there are a few of us in the 9 range. Which costs a fraction of building a 10.
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Wealth of knowledge.

I'm not going to over hype the Mac Pro case, like someone else said, I'll buy the 800D over that.
Red, I think you made the most important decision in the PC market today and that is producing an all black chassis.
The all black theme of the 800D was the main selling point to me when I bought mine last year.
I wouldn't buy a case that has a flat grey interior or full of rainbow colored wires anymore.
 
Redbeard said:
So it'd be a lot easier for Apple to go to Foxconn or whoever and say "We want you to build this chassis to this spec using these machines and we're only going to sell 20,000 a month" as opposed to, say, Corsair going to Foxconn and asking them to build the exact same thing and promising them 10% of those sales, at best. Apple might pay $250 for each chassis, while we'd have to pay probably twice that just to buy it. Add on margins for Corsair and then again for the retailer, you're looking at a $1000 computer case, at best.
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Exactly.

There is a reason why Apple can give such a high level of build and material quality at the prices that they do. Nobody else can offer something like the iPad, the Macbook Pro, or the iPhone, with comparable quality at a lower price than what Apple does, which is why they either skimp on quality (we see this all the time) or the devices are more expensive for lower internal specs (Sony VAIO, high end Lenovos, Motorola Xoom, some Android handsets, etc etc).

It is mostly because Apple can make massive up-front orders with all of the cash that they have. They do things like corner the market on IPS LCD panels or flash memory for years in advance by outlaying billions in advance. Doing this gets them a favorable price, while also allowing them to offer designs and material quality that nobody else can afford to without pricing themselves completely out of the market.
 
Omerta said:
I'd like PC case makers to step it up, but I also had no idea that cases over $200 had such low sales. Just based on the internet and what I read on forums and all the build logs, I thought the 800D was selling like hotcakes.
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Unfortunately they don't. People seem to wear it like a badge of honor that they would only spend $50 on a POS case+PSU. "Who cares about build quality, it was only $50!" is what they say.

People who unnecessarily cheap out on their builds is a bit ridiculous IMHO. If you can't afford it, I totally get it, I was a student too, but then there are people who fill their machines with expensive components for benchmarking e-peen purposes, but they output all of those beautiful pixels onto the cheapest TN panel they can find, inside a low quality case with a crap power supply.

Those are people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Then they get bit by low quality power supplies that give them countless hardware issues, or cases that are a PITA to work inside, then they wonder what went wrong. Seen it way too many times in hardware forums. :rolleyes:
 
In any case, I am thrilled that there are companies like Corsair and Apple that do put an emphasis on good, logical design and high quality. :D
 
Serpico said:
Unfortunately they don't. People seem to wear it like a badge of honor that they would only spend $50 on a POS case+PSU. "Who cares about build quality, it was only $50!" is what they say.

People who unnecessarily cheap out on their builds is a bit ridiculous IMHO. If you can't afford it, I totally get it, I was a student too, but then there are people who fill their machines with expensive components for benchmarking e-peen purposes, but they output all of those beautiful pixels onto the cheapest TN panel they can find, inside a low quality case with a crap power supply.

Those are people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Then they get bit by low quality power supplies that give them countless hardware issues, or cases that are a PITA to work inside, then they wonder what went wrong. Seen it way too many times in hardware forums. :rolleyes:
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I agree. The most important parts to a PC build are the monitor, keyboard/mouse, case, motherboard and PSU. These parts are the foundation IMO.

Since we interact with our computer by sight and touch, the monitor, keyboard and mouse are the most important parts which should be high quality.
GTX 580SLI connected to and ASUS 24" TN panel for example, is a waste of money. The video card(s) shouldn't cost more than your monitor(s), that's the method I go by.
A solid IPS panel, mechanical keyboard and quality mouse will enhance any gaming experience. A quality case will help build/upgrade your PC a lot easier.
 
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Serpico said:
In any case, I am thrilled that there are companies like Corsair and Apple that do put an emphasis on good, logical design and high quality. :D
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Yup. Corsair is awesome. Good quality products and good support. One area where Corsair has the edge over Lian Li and Silverstone is their customer support.


WorldExclusive said:
I agree. The most important parts to a PC build are the monitor, keyboard/mouse, case, motherboard and PSU. These parts are the foundation IMO.

Since a person uses their monitor and kb/mouse the most, these parts should be high quality.
GTX 580SLI connected to and ASUS 24" TN panel for example, is a waste of money. The video card(s) shouldn't cost more than your monitor(s), that's the method I go by.
A solid IPS panel, mechanical keyboard and quality mouse will enhance any gaming experience. A quality case will help build/upgrade your PC a lot easier.
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And yeah serpico and worldeclusive, I've never understood how people do that. Get all the best hardware and put it all in a cheap plastic case. It's like what is the point of that? I don't care if I had dual 980Xs on a SR2 with 3 GTX 580s if it's inside some garbage plastic case. The computer would still seem like a piece of crap to me even with all that hardware if it's inside a cheap case. Same thing with the TN panels. I don't know how people tolerate them. Especially the people getting 3 of them for eyefinity and whatever.
 
For those wondering, the 800D sells exceptionally well for a case in its price range. It's definitely one of the best selling $200+ cases out there, if not THE best, depending on the reseller.

But you could add all the guys who spend $200+ on a case in a year together and still not match the number of guys buying sub $200 cases in a month.

600T sells more than 4x as many cases as 800D.

It just so happens that the number of guys who buy $200 cases happens to very closely match the number of guys who have forums accounts and post pictures in threads. :)
 
Wow,

It's only February and I'd seriously nominate this for thread of the year. Really insightful posts here Redbeard, it's great to hear some honest opinions from someone in the industry. I've loved the Mac Pro case ever since I saw one at my school, and was disheartened when I found out they don't fit ATX motherboards w/o lots of hacking and cutting.

I've been using a Cooler Master Centurion case for about 4 years now. It's badly in need of a replacement but I could NEVER find a PC case I was happy with. For the past few years, I'd glance at Alienware, Apevia, NZXT, Zalman, Raidmax, Silverstone, Lian Li, etc. but at the end of the day I'd always end up drooling at the Mac Pro and not make a purchase. That almost changed with the Thermaltake Level 10 case which was the first PC case I felt had solid build quality, but clocking in at 50lbs. with an $800 price tag, it was out of the question. And with no USB3.0, it's too outdated to for the current age.

Fast forward to 2011, Corsair announced the Obsidian 650D. I swear, this case is the answer to my prayers. If the Mac Pro gets a 10, I'll give the 650D a 9.5 based upon what I've seen in paper. I never thought I'd see the day this Cooler Master gets retired, but it looks like come April of this year, pigs are going to fly. :D
 
Hi All
Thank you Redbeard for explaining what goes into manufacturing computer cases. I am very pleased with my 800D, as it's a fantastic case. I have seen the MACPRO case & agree that it too is a fantastic case as well.
Question to you Redbeard, will Corsair ever manufacture a all aluminum case?
 
jtm55 said:
Hi All
Question to you Redbeard, will Corsair ever manufacture a all aluminum case?
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And how about a mini-ATX/ITX that supports ~10" (or longer) GPUs? Bonus points if it tops Silverstone's ft03 while supporting 5.25" optical bays (hidden behind a flop-down cover of course).
 
Add me to the list of people that doesn't fine the Mac Pro case to be attractive at all, and I love silver aluminum cases.

I find my Silverstone Temjin TJ09 (and high end Silverstone cases in general) to be far more attractive cases.
 
jtm55 said:
Hi All
Thank you Redbeard for explaining what goes into manufacturing computer cases. I am very pleased with my 800D, as it's a fantastic case. I have seen the MACPRO case & agree that it too is a fantastic case as well.
Question to you Redbeard, will Corsair ever manufacture a all aluminum case?
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Anything is possible, but to be honest, there's almost no point to doing it. It doesn't cool your system better, and Aluminum costs a lot more than Steel does. Especially once it's anodized. (Lian Li cases with anodized interiors are usually very expensive).

So we want to make the best product for the customer - regardless of materials or whatever. If we make an all-aluminum case, it'll have a reason beyond "well it weighs slightly less".
 
WorldExclusive said:
I agree. The most important parts to a PC build are the monitor, keyboard/mouse, case, motherboard and PSU. These parts are the foundation IMO.

Since we interact with our computer by sight and touch, the monitor, keyboard and mouse are the most important parts which should be high quality.
GTX 580SLI connected to and ASUS 24" TN panel for example, is a waste of money. The video card(s) shouldn't cost more than your monitor(s), that's the method I go by.
A solid IPS panel, mechanical keyboard and quality mouse will enhance any gaming experience. A quality case will help build/upgrade your PC a lot easier.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. The way that we interact with our devices (monitor, keyboards, mice, touchpads) are at least as important as the internals.

The other thing is that all of those components can last you years and years. Even if it is a higher initial investment, it pays itself off in the long run in terms of the quality of your experience.

Omerta said:
Yup. Corsair is awesome. Good quality products and good support. One area where Corsair has the edge over Lian Li and Silverstone is their customer support.
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Yeah, and you really appreciate this sort of thing once you've dealt with poor customer support from companies like Gigabyte.
 
Serpico said:
Absolutely. The way that we interact with our devices (monitor, keyboards, mice, touchpads) are at least as important as the internals.

The other thing is that all of those components can last you years and years. Even if it is a higher initial investment, it pays itself off in the long run in terms of the quality of your experience.
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Paying more for a case gives you a better return on your money moreso than it does for other hardware. A good case can last far longer than a good cpu or a goodd gpu. I have a lian li case that was built in the Pentium 4 and Athlon XP days. All of the hardware that was ooriginally in it is long obsolete, but the case itself is still perfectly functional. A good case can easily last for 3 or more rigs, depending on how often you upgrade.
 
nalc said:
Paying more for a case gives you a better return on your money moreso than it does for other hardware. A good case can last far longer than a good cpu or a goodd gpu. I have a lian li case that was built in the Pentium 4 and Athlon XP days. All of the hardware that was ooriginally in it is long obsolete, but the case itself is still perfectly functional. A good case can easily last for 3 or more rigs, depending on how often you upgrade.
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Yup. I kept my Lian Li V1100 for five years and numerous internal upgrades. I replaced it with the Corsair 800D which I reckon will last me even longer, because I have no issues with this case while there were little problems here and there that I had with my Lian Li.

Same reasoning goes for power supplies and monitors, good ones will last you quite a while.
 
Serpico said:
Yup. I kept my Lian Li V1100 for five years and numerous internal upgrades. I replaced it with the Corsair 800D which I reckon will last me even longer, because I have no issues with this case while there were little problems here and there that I had with my Lian Li.

Same reasoning goes for power supplies and monitors, good ones will last you quite a while.
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Most of the improvements seem to have come in making them easier to work in, and providing more airflow. The build quality and durability hasn't changed much. If there's anything wrong with my PC-7077B, it's that there are two 80mm exhaust fans behind the motherboard instead of a single 120, and that it takes a very long time to swap out hard drives. Six screws to get both sides off, then a total of 12 screws to remove the HDD cage, then 4 screws into the HDD itself. I'm envious of those newer cases where you just put four screws into the drive then slide it into a rack. Otherwise, the look of the case remains contemporary, the finish has held up very well (no scratches or dents or smudges), and nothing has broken on the inside.
 
nalc said:
Most of the improvements seem to have come in making them easier to work in, and providing more airflow. The build quality and durability hasn't changed much. If there's anything wrong with my PC-7077B, it's that there are two 80mm exhaust fans behind the motherboard instead of a single 120, and that it takes a very long time to swap out hard drives. Six screws to get both sides off, then a total of 12 screws to remove the HDD cage, then 4 screws into the HDD itself. I'm envious of those newer cases where you just put four screws into the drive then slide it into a rack. Otherwise, the look of the case remains contemporary, the finish has held up very well (no scratches or dents or smudges), and nothing has broken on the inside.
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Don't misunderstand me, I wasn't knocking high end Lian Li cases, I was agreeing that a good case will last you though many builds and make things simple. I'm sure that the newer Lian Li cases are better than the one I got way back in 2004. :)
 
WorldExclusive said:
I agree. The most important parts to a PC build are the monitor, keyboard/mouse, case, motherboard and PSU. These parts are the foundation IMO.

Since we interact with our computer by sight and touch, the monitor, keyboard and mouse are the most important parts which should be high quality.
GTX 580SLI connected to and ASUS 24" TN panel for example, is a waste of money. The video card(s) shouldn't cost more than your monitor(s), that's the method I go by.
A solid IPS panel, mechanical keyboard and quality mouse will enhance any gaming experience. A quality case will help build/upgrade your PC a lot easier.
Click to expand...

My monitor (Acer 23" 1920x1080 TN) cost me $125 in December 2009. My video card (Nvidia MSI GTX 470) cost $158 on Black Friday in 2010...
 
RoGuE1230 said:
My monitor (Acer 23" 1920x1080 TN) cost me $125 in December 2009. My video card (Nvidia MSI GTX 470) cost $158 on Black Friday in 2010...
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That's fine, I'm taking about a noticeable gap between prices i.e. $100+. When the GTX 470 was first released it was $350.
With that same monitor, some one will buy a GTX 580 for it, or even a 6990/590 when they are released.
 
Omerta said:
Yup. Corsair is awesome. Good quality products and good support. One area where Corsair has the edge over Lian Li and Silverstone is their customer support.
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I cant speak on Silverstone and Lian Li customer service, but Corsair rocks! I just bought an open box case from microcenter and it had damaged drive bay locks and a broken usb cover. I emailed customer support about getting parts and they are sending them to me for free! I was ready to pay, cant beat that!
 
nalc said:
Not sure about macpro cases but the very similar powermac g5 cases can be found for under 100 dollars on ebaay. Atx conversion takes some time and attention to detail but is definitely doable. The macpro cases are a bit more because they're newer, but the build is very similar.
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Yea a quick search on the bay can lead to many results. I was interested at one point and followed the prices, which don't seem to exceed 150 for the case. You can also find many people's worklogs on converting the case if you google it. If you can manage the style inside and out, it'll be a great case.
 
akifbayram said:
Yea a quick search on the bay can lead to many results. I was interested at one point and followed the prices, which don't seem to exceed 150 for the case. You can also find many people's worklogs on converting the case if you google it. If you can manage the style inside and out, it'll be a great case.
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I picked up mine for $50 plus $27 shipping. It was a dual G5 with a bad mobo. I pulled all of the Mac crap out of it and made it ATX. Once I get around to selling the CPUs, fans, RAM, and PSU on ebay, I will probably recoup most of my cost. All of my ish fits, although it is 'cozy' in one or two areas. If money wasn't as much of a concern, I'd probably have jumped into a nice $200 Lian-Li, Corsair, or Silverstone, but a G5 case is absolutely a steal if you have a spare motherboard tray (mine was donated from a really cheap generic steel case I got about five years ago) and a free weekend or three to mod it.
 
Also, I really wasn't talking about its interior layout. I was talking about its build quality and how no case manufacturer is even close to touching it.
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Obviously you've never had the pleasure of owning a Zalman GT1000.
 
Then he would probably know how thick that case was and how well it was made to be able to say that no case manufacturer comes close to the MacPro case.
 
seismicshift said:
Then he would probably know how thick that case was and how well it was made to be able to say that no case manufacturer comes close to the MacPro case.
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Yes, it's thick, but otherwise not that impressive from what I remember.

Yep, just looked at the photos on Newegg to refresh my memory.
1. Stupid looking design. Typical "let's put our name everywhere" crap. "Z-Machine" logo in horrible font, huge, several places.
2. 92mm fans. On a $400 case. From a company that tries to position itself as a leader in silence. Yeah, no thanks.
3. Yes it's from 2007, but the design is unimpressive, pure front to back cooling and somewhat restrictive harddrive bays, etc.
4. Cramped even by 2007 standards. Many many video cards would not fit anymore, and the HDD bays aren't removable. Do you really want to notch aluminum drive bays in a $400 case? No.

In short it's an ugly, overpriced, poorly designed hunk of aluminum.

I don't even like the Mac Pro / G5 case and I'd still agree it's a better design and better built than the GT1000.
 
I've just ordered a G5 case in excellent condition off eBay. Got it for £40. There's a lot of good info on this thread and others so I'll be trying to do an ATX conversion in the next few weeks...
 
But then again the point of contention was the build quality and not the design since other case manufacturer were mentioned in terms of design and functionality. BTW it is cramped because it is a mid tower. (not full tower) and because of the thickness of the casing panels all are assembled w/screws and bolts. If you must know the HDD bays are removable no need to notch aluminum to fit the longest video cards available.:)

I was talking about its build quality and how no case manufacturer is even close to touching it.
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Dear Redbeard,

Please make an all-aluminum case that competes with the high end Lian Li offerings. If they can make cases at the < $350 pricepoint, then you guys can surely put out a better product (more attention to detail; sexier design).

I am waiting to give you my money, and I'll buy your CPU coolers and power supplies too :)
 
Relleum said:
Dear Redbeard,

Please make an all-aluminum case that competes with the high end Lian Li offerings. If they can make cases at the < $350 pricepoint, then you guys can surely put out a better product (more attention to detail; sexier design).

I am waiting to give you my money, and I'll buy your CPU coolers and power supplies too :)
Click to expand...

I know this is just personal preference... but I find my new 650D more aesthetically appealing than any Lian Li case. :)
 
Relleum said:
Dear Redbeard,

Please make an all-aluminum case that competes with the high end Lian Li offerings. If they can make cases at the < $350 pricepoint, then you guys can surely put out a better product (more attention to detail; sexier design).

I am waiting to give you my money, and I'll buy your CPU coolers and power supplies too :)
Click to expand...

It's not going to happen -- it's cost prohibitive. This has been discussed many many times.
 
@Redbeard: any thoughts on the SFF market? Anything "small" in the works? ;)
 
prava said:
@Redbeard: any thoughts on the SFF market? Anything "small" in the works? ;)
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Can't comment on unannounced products, sorry.

But if you look at our product lineup of, what, 4 cases? 5 if you count the white 600T? Then you'll see we have quite a few openings compared to our competition. Small Form Factor is one of them, but we have some bigger openings to fill up, first.
 
silent-circuit said:
It's not going to happen -- it's cost prohibitive. This has been discussed many many times.
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Again, it is *not* cost prohibitive because Lian Li makes money in the all-aluminum case market. I think that if Corsair made an aluminum case that competed with Lian Li offerings, it would be well received.

Making a case at the same level as the Mac Pro is understandably cost prohibitive, and that makes sense for the reasons outlined by Readbeard. However, I am not making an argument that compares Apples to oranges.
 
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