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Are we going to see high-DPI desktop monitors anytime soon?
- Thread starter Ray2097
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limitedaccess
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I believe 2560x1440 27 inch monitors like the Dell u2711 have the highest ppi at the moment not counting specialty screens for certain professional applications (like medical imaging).
People tend to use laptop screens a lot closer, so they can get away with higher DPI.
If you put a 150 DPI display on the desktop, most people couldn't read the tiny fonts.
Windows Controls won't fix it. The big problem is still content. Most Windows applications will switch into zoom mode if you set windows to Larger (150%) display to increase Font visibility.
So instead of more detailed fonts rendered with more pixels, the whole applications gets zoomed, you get the low res fonts simply blown up and blurry.
It is a total mess.
If you put a 150 DPI display on the desktop, most people couldn't read the tiny fonts.
Windows Controls won't fix it. The big problem is still content. Most Windows applications will switch into zoom mode if you set windows to Larger (150%) display to increase Font visibility.
So instead of more detailed fonts rendered with more pixels, the whole applications gets zoomed, you get the low res fonts simply blown up and blurry.
It is a total mess.
jeremyshaw
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Wern't windows fonts vector based? Or am I thinking of Photoshop, lol?
I guess thats true. I just wish we could buy a monitor like the IBM T221 for a reasonable price.
22.2" LCD that has a native resolution of 3840x2400, 203.98 DPI! Though that monitor is even 11 years old now.
The best I've seen is my iPhone 4 in 960x640 at 3.5" for a 329.65 DPI. It looks so clear. But yeah, you hold a phone inches from your face.
limitedaccess is right though, the best are the 27" 2560x1440 at 108.79 DPI.
22.2" LCD that has a native resolution of 3840x2400, 203.98 DPI! Though that monitor is even 11 years old now.
The best I've seen is my iPhone 4 in 960x640 at 3.5" for a 329.65 DPI. It looks so clear. But yeah, you hold a phone inches from your face.
limitedaccess is right though, the best are the 27" 2560x1440 at 108.79 DPI.
jeremyshaw
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Well, there are the Toshiba laptop displays...
DPI: 168.16
1920*1080
13.1"
Only used in the Sony Z, so far (afaik).
DPI: 168.16
1920*1080
13.1"
Only used in the Sony Z, so far (afaik).
Omegas
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I had a sony vio with a 1920x1200 17" screen and it was sexy nice... +1 for wanting the same on a 24". Maybe like a 2560x1600 24"?
Some well written applications do the write thing. Most don't.
Here is a test I did. I turned up display size in windows preferences to 150%. Some applications did nothing, things stayed small, some resized some elements and didn't resize others. Most did what Opera does. Simply zoomed the whole application, which is no better than if you run your high res monitor at a lower resolution.
Here is Firefox Left, Opera Right: Notice Opera is blurry, they just ZOOM everything. Everything will be blurry, even images on web pages you visit.
Multiple revisions exist - production stopped in 2005, when IBM left the LCD panel joint venture (IDtech). And even then the display quality would be better than what LG does today.
Right now i'm using a laptop with a 15" QXGA IPS Idtech panel - excellent for coding.
I would love to have a 27" 200 DPI or 300 DPI screen! 
IMHO the legacy software problem isn't a huge deal. Windows 7 seems to have a nice architecture for scaling - if an application indicates to the OS that it is capable of high-DPI, it gets to draw the high-DPI graphics itself, otherwise it thinks it is running at low DPI and Windows scales up the image (like the Opera screenshot). The problems with Firefox in the screenshot above are bugs (in firefox).. it should look identical to the blurry, scaled up image on the right, except without the blur. In theory the blurry, scaled up legacy apps shouldn't look worse on a high DPI screen than they do now on a ~100DPI screen though.
Application authors just need to get it together and start writing apps that look amazing at high DPI!
Also.. just playing with a bit of math, suppose we could build a 27" screen with double the resolution of current 2560x1440 (108.8 PPI) models. That would be 5120x2880 pixels (217.6 PPI). Not bad! The problem is, the bandwidth required to run it would be at least 5120 * 2880 * 24bits/pixel * 60 fps = 21.2 Gbit/s! That exceeds DisplayPort 1.2's 17.28 Gbit/s :-(
The other thing to keep in mind is the minimum viewing distance to the display plays a role in how high we need to make the DPI. So 300 DPI may be overkill on a 27" monitor, because it's never going to get as close to your eyes as an 300 DPI iPhone.
IMHO the legacy software problem isn't a huge deal. Windows 7 seems to have a nice architecture for scaling - if an application indicates to the OS that it is capable of high-DPI, it gets to draw the high-DPI graphics itself, otherwise it thinks it is running at low DPI and Windows scales up the image (like the Opera screenshot). The problems with Firefox in the screenshot above are bugs (in firefox).. it should look identical to the blurry, scaled up image on the right, except without the blur. In theory the blurry, scaled up legacy apps shouldn't look worse on a high DPI screen than they do now on a ~100DPI screen though.
Application authors just need to get it together and start writing apps that look amazing at high DPI!
Also.. just playing with a bit of math, suppose we could build a 27" screen with double the resolution of current 2560x1440 (108.8 PPI) models. That would be 5120x2880 pixels (217.6 PPI). Not bad! The problem is, the bandwidth required to run it would be at least 5120 * 2880 * 24bits/pixel * 60 fps = 21.2 Gbit/s! That exceeds DisplayPort 1.2's 17.28 Gbit/s :-(
The other thing to keep in mind is the minimum viewing distance to the display plays a role in how high we need to make the DPI. So 300 DPI may be overkill on a 27" monitor, because it's never going to get as close to your eyes as an 300 DPI iPhone.
What theory is that? Reality is that they will look worse.
When you scale to non native resolutions. Object boundaries and pixel boundaries don't end in the same place, so you get blurring and even artifacts.
Compare a Dell U2711 running at 1920x1080 to a native 27" 1920x1080 monitor. The former will look blurry, the latter sharp.
Now if we are jumping to a perfect double, and you scale by a perfect double, you might get acceptable results, but otherwise it will be a mess like that Opera App.
The "trick" is that scaling must be done instead by increasing the DPI of images/text rather than keeping DPI constant, and thus make things appear unsharp when the DPI of the images doesn't match the PPI of the display.
For vector graphics, this is highly possible - for bitmaps impossible.
EDIT: Ok.. hmm, not too relevant in this case.
For vector graphics, this is highly possible - for bitmaps impossible.
EDIT: Ok.. hmm, not too relevant in this case.
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I'm asking this because i have problem with cleartype on my current ~100ppi monitor. I just can't get used to it after a decade without it. I'm so used to pin-sharp fonts and when i see cleartype on "low" ppi displays, i get really bad headaches.
On the other side, i've seen some higer ppi laptops and cleartype looks fantastic on them. It is clear insted of blurry, and fonts look much nicer, of course.
If there are no plans for higher ppi desktop monitors, i'm getting a new laptop or even iPad or something, believe it or not. I need something to real clear text on.
Thanx for your answers, btw.
On the other side, i've seen some higer ppi laptops and cleartype looks fantastic on them. It is clear insted of blurry, and fonts look much nicer, of course.
If there are no plans for higher ppi desktop monitors, i'm getting a new laptop or even iPad or something, believe it or not. I need something to real clear text on.
Thanx for your answers, btw.
limitedaccess
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You may want to try a glossy screen being demoed in a store to see how those are. While they do come with there own drawbacks, it may or may not be more suitable for you personally. I'm wondering if the laptops you are looking at have glossy or very light AG coats compared to the monitors you are using.
In Windows 7, you can't really.
Ivan®;1036663249 said:
Yes you can (although that you have to calibrate cleartype to turn it off is just retarded, I have a hard time understanding that a human being would actually design it the way it is).
However some applications has their own preferences for it.
omniscence
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The problem with Windows 7 is, that while the OS and the native GUI toolkits support DPI scaling just fine, a very large portion of applications use some intermediary toolkit that does not properly implement the scaling.
Ivan®;1036663249 said:
You can, it is just that Windows 7 oddly doesn't do it when you your in the cleartype tuner and turn off cleartype. That only affects about half the fonts.
The real disable setting is in a completely different place: Very poor design.
To really turn off cleartype completely, ignore cleartype tuner and do this:
Control Panel -> System.
->Performance Information and Tools
->Adjust Visual Effects
uncheck: Smooth edges of screen fonts
Apply - Enjoy Sharp edged fonts everywhere!
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To my knowledge it affects everything that doesn't have it's own controls for cleartype (such as internet explorer). The other setting you are talking about is anti aliasing and has nothing to do with cleartype.
With my testing that setting kills all CT/smoothing on all fonts everywhere. I just checked IE and there is not smoothing on any of the fonts in pages or in menus.
Ivan®;1036663964 said:
That doesn't make sense. Either you want CT off or on.
If you want it on, you can do that.
If you want it off, you can do that.
If you want to some kind of magical state that give you a 200 DPI font on a 100 DPI monitor, obviously that isn't going to happen.
Internet explorer has independent settings for cleartype so that you can enable it in IE but have it off for the system (if you'd like that), thought it was on by default - at least earlier. Anyway, I don't use IE but one should be aware that there are applications that have it's own settings for cleartype and anti aliasing.
The first thing I do on a new system is to disable cleartype and I don't agree with it looking like crap. In my eyes it always looks way better than with cleartype on.
Ivan®;1036663964 said:
The first thing I do on a new system is to disable cleartype and I don't agree with it looking like crap. In my eyes it always looks way better than with cleartype on.
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Ok found that setting, but apparently it is off by default as I never changed it. Which makes sense if you think about it. It is a system over-ride. I would expect default behavior to go with the system.
Anyway my point was that you can disable CT in win7. If you just turn it off in CT tuner there are still some old smoothing algorithms that run that really do a similar thing. This lead a lot of people to conclude you couldn't disable CT.
But If you click the font smoothing setting I indicated it kills both kinds system wide, but yes some applications may override (none by default on my system).
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houkouonchi
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Ivan®;1036656272 said:
Yeah I duno wtf is up with these low ass DPI monitors. I have a T221 (9503-DGP) capable of 48Hz @ 3840x2400 as well as the Viewsonic VP2290b (41 Hz). The T221 is a very nice monitor and gaming is even possible at 48Hz (41Hz is barely playable for FPS).
If you know someone in Japan they can be had pretty cheaply. Mine cost me about $550 USD shipped (with giving my friend a bit of money for the hassle of shipping it to me):
http://auctions.search.yahoo.co.jp/search?p=IBM+9503&auccat=0&tab_ex=commerce&ei=euc-jp
Here is a vid of my setup at work with the VP2290b, dell 3007 WFP (middle) and dell 2007FP on the right:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZdM2PWS39c
You can really see the difference in pixel size dragging from the 30 inch dell to the 22.2 inch Viewsonic. I also have another video after I got the IBM T221 9503-DGP with the ViewSonic VP2290b but the VP2290b is just too far away from me to be running it at the full 3840x2400 resolution so I was running it at 1920x1200. Someone on 2ch was asking about if anyone had done tripple monitor with 3840x2400 + 2560x1600 + 1920x1200 so that is why I made the video so its in Japanese but I its bit newer of a setup:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t_mV2ode30
I felt like I was wasting the VP2290b running it 1920x1200 so I ended up giving it to my sister as she also likes high resolution monitors and will actually run it at the full res/refresh rate (3840x2400@41Hz on windows 7 via 4xsingle link DVI on an eyefinity 6 5970 card).