Desktop PC Platform: Killed By Overclocking

messerchmidt said:
they article does not really have a point. seem to critique the high end "boutique" segment of the market. if it was not there, no one would make products for it. The reasonable and [H] among us will rarely venture there.

way more fun messing with the less expensive stuff:D
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Haha!! You're exactly right. If I fry my CPU I'm out $200. And while that's not pocket change by any means, it's not the end of the world either. I just don't know how he can right all that crap right in the face of all of us tremendously budget conscious enthusiasts. Is there a single one of you out there that intentionally and blatantly disregards the "bang for your buck" factor?? I'm sure there's a few, but I bet you're VERY few.
 
Wow, I'm dumb sometimes. It's supposed to be 'write' and not 'right' ... sorry.
 
It sort of missed the point. Overclocking is redundant now.

I gave up on overclocking when I put together my amd 955be system last year. Even today the only way to get my cpu 100% is to run 4 instances of prime. But I use my computer for games and work, not wank numbers. Even video cards don't matter anymore either. Better off with more shader processors etc than 50-100 more mhz, so buy a better card.

My point is that computers are so damn cheap you don't need to settle on the low end crap anymore. We don't need to settle on a $300 processor and clock it to a 600$ one, we just spend the extra $40 to get something fast.

I've actually gone the next step, overclocker to tweaker. I now tweak my systems to run on the lowest voltages I can. I'd say that overclocking has gone much more hobbyist than from when it was actually a neccessary, which is funny because even then it was considered hobbyist.
 
MV75 said:
It sort of missed the point. Overclocking is redundant now.

I gave up on overclocking when I put together my amd 955be system last year. Even today the only way to get my cpu 100% is to run 4 instances of prime. But I use my computer for games and work, not wank numbers. Even video cards don't matter anymore either. Better off with more shader processors etc than 50-100 more mhz, so buy a better card.

My point is that computers are so damn cheap you don't need to settle on the low end crap anymore. We don't need to settle on a $300 processor and clock it to a 600$ one, we just spend the extra $40 to get something fast.

I've actually gone the next step, overclocker to tweaker. I now tweak my systems to run on the lowest voltages I can. I'd say that overclocking has gone much more hobbyist than from when it was actually a neccessary, which is funny because even then it was considered hobbyist.
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Ill show you i'm going to overclock my damned printer and do 120PPM. But anyway possibly not everyone has the money to pay for the "better" options so they just go for what they can. Then clock it up. Its cheaper to get a lower price bracket chip and a decent cooler than got for the 1000$ option all the time. Especially when you have to eat. If you can't afford it then it's the only way to get that kind of power. I needed it for the stuff I do (realtime 3d rendering of shitness) and there was no way I could go all out. So OC comes in. High end specs for a fraction of the price. Maybe when i'm more professional I can just buy rack of blade servers and a laptop, but until then this will have to do.
Yes it's all quite needed. Need a bit more too...

We don't need to settle on a $300 processor and clock it to a 600$ one, we just spend the extra $40 to get something fast.
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Thats quite a discount! Ill pay an extra 40$ to get something twice as good, that means with the OC ill get a 200% increase. Rendering ques are a bitch.
 
I've overclocked every computer I've had since the 486dx25 days. I basically buy the best stuff I can afford then overclock it as much as I can to get the best bang for my buck. Usually i end up with a computer faster than any oem computer at half the price of a high end oem computer.

To me, that is the spirit of overclocking - getting more speed than you can afford to pay for or is possible to buy.
 
It does make you think why buy a corei7 975 when I can get a corei7 920 and overclock it to 40Ghz using a corsair H50? why buy Ram over stock speed? Why get extreme edition CPU's or Video cards? For those who can afford them they don;t have to risk overclocking a system. Overclocking is relaly for people on a budget trying to get more performance out of what they got. I think the guy who wrote the editorial is a schmuck! i think overclockers and all enthusiasts help the Industry. Most people buy budget to mid-range parts. the Enthusiast parts generate buzz and get us excited about buying the lower end parts that have 80% of the extreme's performance at 1/3 the price.:D
 
The very first sentence tells you that this article is just one part of a larger series, and that there's a back-story:
In my first entry to this series, Desktop PC Platform: Fears and Predictions, you were introduced to the basic framework of threats surrounding the desktop market segment.
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I wonder how many people read that other article first, or simply judged this one by the title?
 
Steve, you got it wrong, Olin did not say that overclocking is killing the industry, quite the opposite, that the industry is killing the overclocking spirit.

Not that I agree with his article, I rather think it's great for the consumer to find factory-OC'd components, it offers an extra choice in both performance and price between the stock component you can afford and the one that does not fit your budget. The true overcloker will overclock stock components himself, not buy those. As for people who buy more expensive OC-rated components, well, that probably wouldn't be necessary if you could find today or even within the next 24 months a graphic card rig that can run Metro 2033 at full high settings. So what choice is there but overclocking?

I don't think people are showing off their money, or at least only a very few super rich are, most are making a sacrifice somewhere else to afford the expensive components.

This kind of factory overclocking has always existed since the very beginning of desktop computing, that's basically what gave rise to the whole "IBM-PC compatible" market, with PC companies offering cheaper 8-10MHz PC-ATs vs the 6MHz stock IBMs. And with a huge 30MB hard disk to boot (literally) when IBM PCs came with only 20MB. That's not overclocking per se, but that was the same spirit of offering more performance for the buck.

Later on, overclocking started requiring high performance cooling systems. Hell, who would have heard of Peltier if computer enthusiasts hadn't resuscitated the technology back then? I would take the fact that you can now buy ready-made water cooling kits instead of rigging it up yourself as a sign of an healthy market rather than a dying spirit. Even if you don't buy such a kit and want to build it yourself, you'll still need to spend money on some pump, radiator, hose, clips, etc., you can't always hope to recycle everything.

I kind of agree though that true overclocking should be based on industry standard components, but there are also many valid reasons for using factory-OC'd components or components specially rated for OC, as mentioned earlier in this thread. One of the main reasons is usually forgotten: IT technology advances much faster than industry standards do, so manufacturers can build higher rated components and individuals want or need the extra performance too. Overclocking exists because both manufacturers and consumers are frustrated by industry standards that are already nearly obsolete at the time of their implementation (given the rate of progress), or that are not open enough to make provisions for, say, faster memory, bus, CPU speeds. Small minded industry leaders have very short term financial objectives and thus constantly need to break or update industry standards at a huge cost for the consumer. They did it from the very start, remember the "nobody will ever need more than 640KB of RAM" or "let's store years as 2 digits."
 
My current CPU is an Opteron 175. It was 2.2 GHz out of the box, but I have it running at 2.64 through tweaking the CPU frequency and DRAM multiplier since the chip is locked. It's nice and stable with air cooling and I don't have any problems with it. It cost a lot less to do this than purchase the 2.6 GHz chips that were available at the time. At the time I built the computer socket 939 was almost on its way out, but I managed to put the whole thing together for about $700, and I'm still using it though I did plunk a larger PSU in it and a GTX 260 a while back.

I overclock not because I want to have a system faster than anyone else, but because I can squeeze more performance out of my system without having to spend more money. I know some people like to get the most expensive thing out there, slap a water block on it, and see how fast they can make it go, but they're rich and I'm not. I only like to update my core computer components every 5+ years. Overclocking is just a performance boosting option that you can take or leave. I only OC to what is stable without fooling around with voltages so I don't have as much risk of cooking a chip, but if I can get an extra 440MHz out of my CPU for free, why not?
 
I don't overclock. never found the need to. doesn't mean, however, that I don't understand why people do.

its like cars - you can pay for a fast car, or you can buy a car and turn it into a street beast on your own. some choose one path, others choose the do it yourself route.

do I think overclocking is killing the industry? no. it is all but impossible for a small niche market to overtake the larger and more profitable mainstream market.

do I think the industry is trying too hard to cater to a niche market? fuck yes. you only need to look at all the various cases, boards, and cooling methods being marketed now. the standard fan size used to be 80mm. maybe its just me, but it seems that 120mm is the ne standard. even mid grade parts come with bells and whistles you only used to find on the top tier product line from anyone. now some of the top tier bells and whistles can even be found on budget/entry level to mid-grade parts, and now the top tier parts just come with SOME useful things, but mostly useless crap that provide little convenience.

remember the days of when you OC'ed with jumpers and frag tape/the pencil trick? does anyone even do that now on modern computer parts? if I recall correctly a board or two that was reviewed right here at [H] showed a literal push-button overclock that wasn't just some 100Mhz gimmick. it performed very admirably if I recall correctly.

i'm not saying its not nice that these things are available. what I am saying is that yes, its quite obvious that the overclocking crowd has gotten the attention of various parts makers. overclockability is the new standard. I couldn't tell you if that's a good or bad thing, but its definitely opened up some doors for people who were not previously thinking about overclocking. now that we do have such push button OC capabilities no, I might actually give it a go. sure, there is a price premium. but that is the price of convenience and minimized risk.
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DeathPrincess said:
Ill show you i'm going to overclock my damned printer and do 120PPM. But anyway possibly not everyone has the money to pay for the "better" options so they just go for what they can. Then clock it up. Its cheaper to get a lower price bracket chip and a decent cooler than got for the 1000$ option all the time. Especially when you have to eat. If you can't afford it then it's the only way to get that kind of power. I needed it for the stuff I do (realtime 3d rendering of shitness) and there was no way I could go all out. So OC comes in. High end specs for a fraction of the price. Maybe when i'm more professional I can just buy rack of blade servers and a laptop, but until then this will have to do.
Yes it's all quite needed. Need a bit more too...



Thats quite a discount! Ill pay an extra 40$ to get something twice as good, that means with the OC ill get a 200% increase. Rendering ques are a bitch.
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Well, I found that when you buy intel you have to overclock it. Sort of like a diesel car needs a turbo to get anything out of it. :p

But I should have broken my statement up. Back in the day you'd buy a $300 celeron 366 and overclock to speeds that a $600 pentium 3 did.

These days, just spend the extra pittance and get a 955be instead of a 555 or something. Or even sink that better cooler money into a x6. You can build decent systems that cost the same as the absolute top tier chips these days and past days cost.
 
Guy's a douche nozzle. We still look for affordable hardware to OC. This guy acts like every program takes advantage of the fact that you have multi core processors, but they don't.

That's why I have a $200 CPU that preforms like a $1000 one. Most of the products sold specifically for overclocking or pre-overclocked do represent significant value to us in various ways. One, parts sold specifically to be OCed makes it less of a chore. That represents significant value over parts that don't have all the options available. Two, products that are pre overclocked represent value to certain people who wish to get a guaranteed speed. Many times these parts will OC even further. People see it as less of a crap shoot for a few dollars more. I don't see why that represents zero value to this guy. Really, we are talking about a $10 difference and sometimes, a $0 difference.

That article basically says that we are idiots to OC our PC parts. I say he is the idiot who doesn't.:eek:

Excuse me while I go play GTA4 on my OC PC that can't run the game the way I want at bone stock settings.
 
Yep I will always overclock. Instead of using the pencil trick I had a little clear plastic overlays with metal leads to unlock my Athlon processor. Who can forget the turbo buttons on old cases lol
 
OC a Cyrix M-II 233MHz? Anyone who knew anything back then stayed away from Cyrix junk in the 1st place.

Anyways, as some in this thread have said, the article's title is misleading just to grab attention and dude does have a point about "premium" hardware, though he's misguided.

WE all know the point of overclocking, getting that $200 processor running like a $1000 one and spending the cash we saved on a decent video card+monitor.
 
There have always been different reasons for overclocking. A lot of us used to HAVE to so we could play the games we wanted. We didn't have the money to buy the high-end stuff that the games used to demand. I remember making a home-made cooler out of chunks of aluminum and fans to get a REALLY old vid card to play UT, 1 or 2 frame increase was exciting! You've also always had the ones that just wanted to go as fast as possible, to be THE fastest. It's all valid, and it all generates revenue for the corporate sector. The Intel 980 $1k part as well as the lowly AMD Sargas 140 that can be unlocked/overclocked on a budget. I don't see the harm myself, I think it's just sour grapes by the author that he thinks he needs to buy the $5k system to be validated. It is something I miss around here tho...I personally get more joy out of seeing just how much I can get from the low end, 'bang for the buck' style.
 
cyclone3d said:
Of course you don't send it in with an aftermarket cooler installed.

You put the stock cooler back on before you send it in.

It just means you have to actually be careful, do a good job, and keep the stock stuff stored away.

If they get a card back with scratched up stuff, stripped screw heads, etc.. of course they are not going to replace it.
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I understand this but my point is you cannot send it in with an aftermarket cooler because it will void the warranty. You didn't write anything in your post about swapping the Heatsink back before sending it in ;)
 
I had a really long reply which was eaten by a stale login so paraphrase here we go.


Article is a bit off
Most of the author's problems is actually from changes in the industry, not really due to overclocking and a result of their own need/want to get faster speeds and specifically to reach 1Ghz

Locking of cores brought about boards with better compnents for overlcoking the FSB, our only recourse it seemed, Later boards with vairable timing for different busses. These items were MARKETED not newly created entirely.

Other events like EE processors being purchased in the wild and their commanding prices had the industry change again and actually allow things like that for an extra price.

Change of industry and technology,popularity of the 'hobby' and just change period made history to where we are now. Article's point of new is a bit skewed.
 
Srsly, I'm kinda like fuck overclocking now. It used to be cool back in the days when performance was not plentiful on cheaper chips, but most stock chips run perfectly fast for me. Overclocking for me has become dudes at the LAN parties I've gone to going "HURR......I overclocked my 3.6 Pentium 4 to 3.8 Ghz.....HURR I have such a huge ecock!" Fuck the elitist bullshit.
 
His complaint only makes sense as long as there aren't 920s/930s in the world. Since there are, his complaint makes no sense.
 
I stopped reading at "Desktop PC Platform Killed by"

I mean just put whatever comes to your mind at the end of the sentence...
Piracy
DRM
APPLE
Iphone
Ipad
Netbooks
Nettops
GPUs
Consoles
Games
Inflation
Economy
Zombies...
 
Sure really expensive enthusiast hardware exists, but the majority of us are using the best bang-for-the-buck chips of their generation -- most recently the q6600 and i7 920. So a lot of overclockers are getting more for less, and learning a good bit by doing so. Overclockers are driving the market by demanding better, more reliable motherboards.
 
oc_pty said:
props to you for been OC since forever (26 years? maybe more?). Now that we know that you are old school (more than the author of article) Do you think Desktop PC platform is being killed by Overclocking?
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No.......
 
CacaSapo said:
OC a Cyrix M-II 233MHz? Anyone who knew anything back then stayed away from Cyrix junk in the 1st place.
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The Cyrix 166mhz I had years ago was the worse CPU I've ever owned. Only one I could never overclock. :(
 
I personally do NOT want to go back to the days of using "Golden Fingers" and other hardware mods when motherboards or manufacturers didn't offer the overclocking options we needed. That was a royal pain in the ass. I liked the fact that the enthusiasts themselves built and offered these parts to others, but it was no where near the ideal solution.

Remember having to use dip switches on the early overclocking boards? They sucked. Anyone fondly remember having to throw dip switches to change the voltage or multiplier on your motherboard or having to solder different components on? I sure don't see a lot of people talking about how wonderful it was (except maybe this guy in the article) When Abit and the other early makers of overclocking boards started putting the options in software through the bios, wow, was that ever the way to go. Goodbye dip switches and golden fingers... you will not be missed.

I'd rather pay the $20 extra and buy a "Black Edition" processor instead of having to go buy a windshield wiper repair kit to paint two contacts closed on my Athlon processor in order to achieve the same result like I would have had to do 10 years ago. I'd rather buy the $60 behemoth air cooler with heatpipes that cools insanely well and is almost silent instead of cutting 5 holes in my case with a jigsaw and Dremel and putting 8 Delta fans in it that probably damaged my hearing permanently and cost more money.

It's called innovation and progression. Yes, there will always be someone out there trying to sell you something you don't need. If there's a market for people that want to buy preoverclocked products, you can bet someone out there will sell it to them. That doesn't mean we have to buy it, nor does it mean it's necessicarily a bad thing. The overclocking market is bigger and BETTER than it's ever been.

I don't see the overclocking products of today as any different than the "Falcon Northwest" companies of the past. Some people would pay a fortune to buy a pre-overclocked system from Falcon and brag about it, but the other crafty, resourceful folks like me would pay half as much and end up with a rig that was even faster... but it took a lot of time and effort.

I think the author of this article is upset because of one thing: time and effort. Everything he talks about in his overclocking days required a lot of time and effort. He felt "special" that he could do something that most people couldn't. It created a tight-knit community that would share ideas and methodolgies. Reminds me of the humble beginnings of the [H] community. Now days you've got tons of fools running around slapping down $$ with no idea what they're doing, talking down to people that don't espouse their ideas, acting like overclocking in an entitlement, without any ideas of the effort it took to get the industry to this point and with no sense of community.

Which brings up my main point, and I think perhaps what the author of this article was trying to get at: While I don't miss the headaches of the past in overclocking, I can understand how the author might feel like the heart and soul of overclocking has been lost in the new "enthusiast" consumer market where it's not so much about what you can do but instead how much you'll spend.
 
Astral Abyss said:
Which brings up my main point, and I think perhaps what the author of this article was trying to get at: While I don't miss the headaches of the past in overclocking, I can understand how the author might feel like the heart and soul of overclocking has been lost in the new "enthusiast" consumer market where it's not so much about what you can do but instead how much you'll spend.
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I think alot of people are missing this point about the article.
 
jeverson said:
I think I understand what he is trying to say. It does make sense if you come from the "old school" camp of overclockers. Overclocking has gone from the practice of squeezing every last drop of performance from your hardware because you need it to "nah nah my peni... I mean my PC is bigger, badder, and needs it's own nuclear reactor to power it!". At least that is the perception that it can give sometimes. Most of the forums I go on have people that are truly passionate about overclocking from a hobbyist stand point and are also happy to help those that want to learn how. Then there are times I see posts where the poster says...

"Dude! I just spent $7k on this killer rig!.. I could have gotten very similar performance from something a quarter of the price and a little tweaking... but I needed something to blow my wa... I mean cash on."

Not a direct quote... but close. Am I saying that if money was not a concern that I wouldn't build a rig that could run into the $5k+ range?.. No... but I wouldn't do it just for the sake of doing it.

If you have only been building or overclocking PCs for less than 5 years... I don't think you can really appreciate where this guys article is coming from. Yeah, he may be suffering from a little "old school-itis" but I do think that he makes some good points.
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He has a couple valid points, but I think he's getting a little carried away with this. Those of us that have been a part of this hobby for a better part of 10+ years (myself included) can appreciate the concept of spending a little and getting a lot, and I appreciate this greatly, scouring the forums for a great deal on great hardware and then making the most out of it instead of dropping an extra $2000 just because I feel like it.

But the author seems to forget that no matter how many companies push these "excessive enthusiast-overclocker-h4rdc0r3-whatever" products, there will always be ways to do it the way that we originally intended. No one is forcing us to spend the extra money for these privileges, it's entirely possible to pick up a dirt-cheap setup and make the most out of it, I've been doing that for years. So what if joe schmo overclocker wants to spend an extra fortune on his setup? I'll spend a fraction of that on mine and net similar if not better performance. It's still entirely possible to do that, manufacturers are still offering us cheap parts that we can turn into excellent performers, so this guy doesn't really have much of an argument. It would be one thing if cheap hardware was completely locked down and I had to pay for the privilege, but that's not how it is at all.
 
Jodiuh said:
Heh. That reminds me of this video.
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19fps in quake 3 in 2001!?! I always thought that website was run by bafoons!

But yes remember when AMD CPUs used to burn out when people didnt put the heatsink properly! It used to be hit or miss if it would run first time. So many happy memories. I did go all intel though apart from a small stint in 2003... Probably because of my memories of them...
 
MV75 said:
Well, I found that when you buy intel you have to overclock it. Sort of like a diesel car needs a turbo to get anything out of it. :p

But I should have broken my statement up. Back in the day you'd buy a $300 celeron 366 and overclock to speeds that a $600 pentium 3 did.

These days, just spend the extra pittance and get a 955be instead of a 555 or something. Or even sink that better cooler money into a x6. You can build decent systems that cost the same as the absolute top tier chips these days and past days cost.
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Really, I love the smell of AMD in the morning. But seriously theres a limit to frugality. As I said before AMD has always worried me with their self destruction and low max temp. I'm not exactly panic over 30c type. So yes the extra money is worth it!
I might go for some quad AMDs boards in a dual motherboard setup to do both sides of my toast evenly. I might even use that thin cut TIM. Looks tasty.
But the thing is that a 600$ pentium 3 could get to speeds that a celeron couldn't, and you'd destroy 10 AMDs in suicide runs to get there. Still it's a lot of fun!
 
I'm not saying I know the real problem, but it seems to me that the truth is closer to the physical limits of our current understanding of computer technology. Physics is starting to work against the machine, as we have started to hit a ceiling in computer development. Manufacturers have take the path of adding more channels rather then faster channels because of this. This causes a new problem on the software end, as nothing is really designed to take full advantage of the multi-core, multi-pipeline, multi-threaded, 64-bit systems being built.

On the consumer end, we have been duped into this search for hardware performance, when we should be pushing for software perfection on existing hardware, without major physical changes to our hardware (bio-tech, quantum computing) each increase in hardware only yields a small increase in performance (boo-hoo, your 5870 is 15 fps slower then my 480 when we are already clocking in over 60fps on average, and have to go to retarded levels such as 'multidisplay' to even break a sweat on our cards).

Just my two-cents
 
CyCo_SoMaTiC said:
Srsly, I'm kinda like fuck overclocking now. It used to be cool back in the days when performance was not plentiful on cheaper chips, but most stock chips run perfectly fast for me. Overclocking for me has become dudes at the LAN parties I've gone to going "HURR......I overclocked my 3.6 Pentium 4 to 3.8 Ghz.....HURR I have such a huge ecock!" Fuck the elitist bullshit.
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When I had a E6300 running at stock (1.86ghz) a few years ago, many games I was severely cpu limited to the point where games like Half Life 2 I could barely get over 60 fps.

Turn on overclock to 3.2ghz and voila its like a new computer, my performance went through the roof.

That was a cheap cpu too, and I used probably a $25 heatsink.
 
Manaknight said:
i agree with him on some level.

but i also agree with some of the comments in this thread.

He is NOT attacking overclockers or overclocking. The point he was making is the marketing departments got their hands on the overclocking terminology and began using it as a marketing tool to sell the same equipment at higher prices. This does get a bit annoying after a while. I get some of the stuff is manufactured under higher standards to get into the enthusiast lines, but sometimes the premium is worth it sometimes not so much. I think thats the heart of this article

i do agree he gets too "old man" after that point, because if someone wants to pay the premium more power to them, those who are still budget oriented overclockers know what is the best performance per dollar and go there.

the landscape has changed from our old 300a days (yeah i was there), but not necessarily for the worse, the same spirit lives on today...you just don't buy the easy overclock gear at a premium....everyone wins
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I totally agree. Overclockers are not killing the market. Manufactures selling very high priced 'overclocked' goods to a small niche are just shooting themselves in the foot. I also had a 300a (after reading the reviews here:) ) and could never justify the cost of those Intel Extreme's or quad 480 superclocked SLI. I'll get something decent and push it a bit and then use it everyday for a year. I'm no freaking Bill Gates
 
This guy obviously never heard of the concept of speed shops for cars. Is the ordinary automobile market going to disappear because of speed shops? No, it's a preposterous idea, stupid. If anything, speed shops can only help the automobile industry. Nearly every automobile manufacturer has their own line of "speed gear". However, the third party is always the way to go.

It's no different with overclocking. It's just like installing high performance gear in a stock automobile or installing a larger engine. Adding high performance memory and "extreme" CPU's is the equivalent of a larger engine, nitrous, high-flow exhaust and a shift kit.

The author of the article is a colossal dufus.
 
One more thing, the author of this stupid article needs to watch a few episodes of "Home Improvement"

MORE POWER!!! Grunt grunt grrrr!!!!
 
adonn78 said:
It does make you think why buy a corei7 975 when I can get a corei7 920 and overclock it to 40Ghz using a corsair H50? why buy Ram over stock speed? Why get extreme edition CPU's or Video cards? For those who can afford them they don;t have to risk overclocking a system. Overclocking is relaly for people on a budget trying to get more performance out of what they got. I think the guy who wrote the editorial is a schmuck! i think overclockers and all enthusiasts help the Industry. Most people buy budget to mid-range parts. the Enthusiast parts generate buzz and get us excited about buying the lower end parts that have 80% of the extreme's performance at 1/3 the price.:D
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Wrong, overclocking is NOT for people on a budget, it is for people who want to get more out of what they bought.

overclock that Extreme i CPU and see how far it goes compared to your i7 920
 
A woman out-of-the-know would look at that and comment on what a big appendage his computer has. :p
 
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