Assistant Principal Brags About Spying on Kids

They are just training them to work in today's society. Surveillance for security i.e. halls or front lobbies and doors is one thing. This is another. Panopticon what? It's a lot more effective in the long run to get children as well as adults to do their job because they want to as it benefits them not because they are in fear of being watched. But hey what do I know...
 
What? So since it's the school district's lockers, they should have no expectation of privacy either? What kind of logic is this?

Back when I went to school, yes they could search your locker. Just because we used it for the school year did not mean it was ours. We understood this as students. And I am sure they had a policy as to when they could search. They didn't just do random searches, it was usually related to the local stoner that just got busted in the can.

Same thing here I am sure there is probably some form of an acceptable use policy that is posted for the students that informs them they can be monitored. It's no different where I work, when I log on to the computer I have to click and acceptable use policy that clearly states they can monitor all aspects of the computers use and what I do on the computer should not be construed as being private. It doesn't matter if I believe my email should be private or not.. they can still monitor it.

I don't think I have lost any basic rights from it. No, I am sure of it.. I haven't lost any basic rights...
 
I know I will be a proponent of this if my kids had this option in their schools. Just need to train up the teachers to know more about the interwebs than the kids and then it will be fine.
 
Back when I went to school, yes they could search your locker. Just because we used it for the school year did not mean it was ours. We understood this as students. And I am sure they had a policy as to when they could search. They didn't just do random searches, it was usually related to the local stoner that just got busted in the can.

Same thing here I am sure there is probably some form of an acceptable use policy that is posted for the students that informs them they can be monitored. It's no different where I work, when I log on to the computer I have to click and acceptable use policy that clearly states they can monitor all aspects of the computers use and what I do on the computer should not be construed as being private. It doesn't matter if I believe my email should be private or not.. they can still monitor it.

I don't think I have lost any basic rights from it. No, I am sure of it.. I haven't lost any basic rights...

That's not the same thing. Getting busted for paraphernalia and computer web cam surveillance are not the same thing. To get your locker checked you've got to have been doing something bad to start with. Computer surveillance on the other hand by its nature will be an invasion of privacy because you "won't" know its happening.

That aside, electrical tape...

Btw, getting your locker searched was a rite of passage for any HS stoner! Snickers...
 
What? So since it's the school district's lockers, they should have no expectation of privacy either? What kind of logic is this?

yes you havent been in school for a long time have you
thats how it was in my highschool and that was 10 years ago
they could even search your backpack you signed away any rights to privacy on school grounds at the start of the year if you or your parent didnt sign it better start looking for a private school
 
Back when I went to school, yes they could search your locker. Just because we used it for the school year did not mean it was ours. We understood this as students. And I am sure they had a policy as to when they could search. They didn't just do random searches, it was usually related to the local stoner that just got busted in the can.

Same thing here I am sure there is probably some form of an acceptable use policy that is posted for the students that informs them they can be monitored. It's no different where I work, when I log on to the computer I have to click and acceptable use policy that clearly states they can monitor all aspects of the computers use and what I do on the computer should not be construed as being private. It doesn't matter if I believe my email should be private or not.. they can still monitor it.

I don't think I have lost any basic rights from it. No, I am sure of it.. I haven't lost any basic rights...

far as i know my school searchs were 100% random any time any day only catch was you had to be there and open the locker for them
 
Computer surveillance on the other hand by its nature will be an invasion of privacy because you "won't" know its happening.

That aside, electrical tape...

Btw, getting your locker searched was a rite of passage for any HS stoner! Snickers...

Again, they might not know that computer surveillance is happening, but I bet they know it "could be" happening. And I don't have a problem with this during school on a school computer. It's entirely different than the other when the students took the laptops home and then they turned on the webcam.. Two entirely different things...
 
I was feeling the same way.

Kids have been checking out library books for generations. They are school property. I wonder how they managed for all this time w/o web cams?

Everyone gets a locker at school. Are they going to put web cams into the lockers too?

This just seems like a tool for lazy teachers to threaten children into being disciplined. But I fear all it will do is train kids to be at ease with losing more of their basic rights.

Its more difficult to use a textbook to goof off in class, whereas all it takes is an innocuous mouse click to switch from your schoolwork to tetris or facebook... and then back again. Also, I don't think that they were "managing" before. They had 9% competency in Math!

As to monitoring laptop activity, for one thing the students are given the laptops expressly to do schoolwork (and nothing else!), and have no expectation of privacy from the administration regarding their schoolwork.
Secondly, the administration is not seeing anything that they could not see simply by standing in the back of the classroom and observing the student's screens. (Or standing in the front of the room and watching the students faces!)
Thirdly, from what we see in the video, the principal can only see the student if the student has iPhoto open. The student has no reason to have iPhoto open when doing classwork. In effect, you are signing your own warrant by even opening the iPhoto application at all!

Lastly, I don't think we should chastise teachers for using technology to do their jobs more effectively. It sounds like this administration has done an excellent job of improving the learning process in the school.
 
far as i know my school searchs were 100% random any time any day only catch was you had to be there and open the locker for them

Wow, things were different then or we didn't have a problem. I only remember the searches of the stoners.. But if they could have searched for my science homework... I would have appreciated it.
 
Students today have greater freedom than ever before in history. They have access to viewpoints and information on a real time basis that is unprecedented. This demands increased security, responsibility and, discipline. Educators and administrators are doing their job by using the tools afforded by the intarweb to accomplish this.

One of the "rights" of students is to be protected from the hate in the world that seeks only to destroy. I believe adults have better skill sets to deal with the world at large than ANY student no matter how tech savvy, self righteous or, impassioned defender of student "privacy." Those screaming about rights to privacy are incapable of understanding that the right to safety takes priority.

The problem is in selecting the best people for the job educating not, the tools they use.
 
If the laptop is on school property during school hours, then the school should be able to do whatever it wants.

If, however, the school issues laptops that are taken home by students, there needs to be an explicit policy on what, if any, monitoring can take place. This is why I use my own machines whenever possible--though I know not everyone needs or can afford (think about it--high school kids, some rich, some not) their own laptop, it's nice to know you're the only one who knows what is going on.
 
He's more than welcome to remotely check which applications and games the students are using on the laptops during school hours on school property.

He has absolutely no legal recourse to access the webcams or the webcam application at anytime on the the laptops. It skirts way too close to voyerism and will lead to easy lawsuits against the school system.

If you think the webcam access is ok, then you might think it's ok for the school to install two way mirrors in the bathrooms with an observation room on the other side.
 
He's more than welcome to remotely check which applications and games the students are using on the laptops during school hours on school property.

He has absolutely no legal recourse to access the webcams or the webcam application at anytime on the the laptops. It skirts way too close to voyerism and will lead to easy lawsuits against the school system.

If you think the webcam access is ok, then you might think it's ok for the school to install two way mirrors in the bathrooms with an observation room on the other side.

Why is a visual check on student's behavior which they themselves initiated so much more intrusive than reviewing which games or apps they have running? Are appearances more important than thoughts?

How does checking on the behavior of students using the web cam as ONE of the tools to review their habits equate to watching them in the bathroom? Students have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the bathroom, they do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy in the class room.

What is the difference between an administrator monitoring their laptop usage and the teacher in the classroom standing behind their chair watching everything they do?
 
This kind of stuff is why the public schools are failing. They waste 60 to 100K a year on administrative staff like this while kids go without books in the classroom.
 
To reiterate a few things people are jumping on bandwagons about:
1. They KNOW he can view what's on their screens, just not when he is doing it.
2. He is not activating the webcam, the kids are. He's just viewing their screen.

It's just like having VNC or something on a work computer. you can connect and just view, and grab control if you want. This is NOTHING like physically turning on the camera when the students are at home, and explaining the light away as "it's malfunctioning".

I have zero problem with this particular case. It's no different than a sneakier way to check up on what the students are using their computers for. Like the kids said, they switch back to homework if the teacher walks toward them.
 
Uh ... not learning to type until high school?

No thanks. I learned in 5th grade and enjoyed every bit of it.

yea right i was doing typing in 4th Grade and BASIC in 5th and 6th
even befor that i remember WAY the fuck back to like 1st grade the were doing very basic how to use a PC then LOGO on the Apple II any one?
 
I think the work that has been done at that school looks great. I want to see more of this.

In terms of privacy, I am a big advocate for personal privacy, however in this case I believe it to be appropriate.

Why? Because it's the job of School faculty to make sure the students are productive and working on their tasks. While they clearly embrace multi tasking as outlined in the video they do tell them to focus back on work in a polite fashion. When used in classrooms cameras on laptops in that fashion have little difference between the outlined usage and a teacher walking over and telling them to put something distracting away.

You need to make sure the classroom stays mostly productive while at the same time make sure you're not stifling the kids.

I had laptops and desktops in class sometimes during HS, and our teachers knew we gamed and did work on them. TBH, I learned more relevant material to my career by meddling with them than doing the homework. It's all one educational environment.

Good on them.
 
yea right i was doing typing in 4th Grade and BASIC in 5th and 6th
even befor that i remember WAY the fuck back to like 1st grade the were doing very basic how to use a PC then LOGO on the Apple II any one?

haha, wow, I had forgotten about Logo. Aside from twiddling with Q-Basic at home, I think learning to program that "turtle" to draw shapes was one of the things that got me interested in programming to start with.
REPEAT 360 [FD 1 RT 1].

Good times. :)
 
I believe that the laptops are kept within school property. It's not spying then, it's security.
 
Your property, their property, no big deal. In this case they (the school) own the computer they are loaning to students on the school's education budget. I'd hope to see that money going into educating students rather than countering that effort by allowing students to abuse a loaned computer that is actually allowed in the classroom (facing away from the instructor).

Better to have IT take care of it rather than the teacher interrupting class or the student going unmonitored distracting themselves and other students.

ofc at home is a different matter and I would fully agree with you, but this is at school.

yeah that's all nice and dandy WHEN THEY TELL YOU ARE BEING WATCHED
 
Not true at all. Try to back up your claims.

In the PA situation the laptop was not reported stolen per the parents and student.
Also, where do you get your information that the outside security company was the one gathering info?
There are multiple reports that the school in the PA case was using the software for spying while the kids were out of school.
The software maker has stated that the school was taking matters into their own hands and should not have done that.

I know the software/company they use because my school district I work at uses it also. We/They are very closing watching this.

Before I get to the links wars, let me say the Gag order will prevent anything else being said by the school district, and no story is not a good story, so the press will dig up whatever they can, and make up whatever they can when there is nothing to report. That is what they have always done, since the days of Babylon.

"If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed." — Mark Twain

This is how the software works.

The school district has the names of every computer and who they are issued to, as well as the MAC Address of the Wireless and Wired NIC's and the units Serial Number. Apple computer send the SN when they get updates with Apple, and the NIC is tracked by a security database and a security company partnered with some 60 US ISPs. We tell them a computer is stolen, and give them the MAC Addresses and S/N. They find it, and email our recovery expert images from the camera. When it's powered on, and usually every few minutes it's on. He forwards this to the local police who investigate. In some cases if the police need help in ID they will get with a principle, or teacher with the images, but that is up to the police to do not us. in my district of 8000 employees and many times that in students, at a half dozen high school, and only 2 people have direct access to the images via email. One is the head of technology, and one is the person in charge of recovery.

This PA district is very small, only 2600 issued is not many, and 42 turned on is very few also. We recover about 150 computers a year, and activate the software a multiple of that. Most of the time it's a misplaced laptop. A teacher left it at home when we inventoried, or someone transfered to another school and forgot to turn it in, and get a different one from the other school, or something like that.

In some cases we found students say "I lost my laptop" so they don't have to turn in work, then 2 days later turn in the work without telling the teacher they 'found' their laptop. The system can be activated just that easily, and the parent never knows the student reported anything.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...trict_denies_spying_on_students_with_MacBooks

Gag order in effect. Last and only statements by the school districts are here.

the district had acknowledged that cameras had been remotely activated by technology personnel 42 times so far this school year. The cameras were switched on only as part of efforts to recover lost or stolen machines, said Christopher McGinley, superintendent of Lower Merion.

Lindy Matsko, the Harriton High School assistant vice principal "At no point in time did I have the ability to access any webcam through security tracking software,"
 
That's not the same thing. Getting busted for paraphernalia and computer web cam surveillance are not the same thing. To get your locker checked you've got to have been doing something bad to start with. Computer surveillance on the other hand by its nature will be an invasion of privacy because you "won't" know its happening.

That aside, electrical tape...

Btw, getting your locker searched was a rite of passage for any HS stoner! Snickers...

Laws and rules about that change from district to district and state to state. Some 'bad' high schools have drug sniffing dogs going down the halls with the lockers every few days during class or lunch or some time when it should be empty. Searches are done random, and all at once, and when the dog gets a 'hit'.

One school in a neighboring district made local news when they opened every locker one Saturday and issued some 400 reprimands. The reason they did that, is a dog checked the school for the first time, and got a lot of hits, so many they could really determine all the lockers it was coming from. They bused over 50 students for drugs in their lockers, and more for having pipes, or needles, or other drug items in their locker.

If you want to complain that your son or daughter doesn't have privacy in their locker, make sure he/she doesn't have a crack pipe, or joints in their locker.
 
Back when I went to school, yes they could search your locker. Just because we used it for the school year did not mean it was ours. We understood this as students. And I am sure they had a policy as to when they could search. They didn't just do random searches, it was usually related to the local stoner that just got busted in the can.
You knew that it was possible and legal for them to search your locker, right? You (presumably) knew when your locker was searched, right? And they had to have reason to suspect that something suspicious was in the locker before they searched it, right?

So really, what you're saying is that your situation is not at all like the situation described in the OP. So what is your point?
 
I know the software/company they use because my school district I work at uses it also. We/They are very closing watching this.

Before I get to the links wars, let me say the Gag order will prevent anything else being said by the school district, and no story is not a good story, so the press will dig up whatever they can, and make up whatever they can when there is nothing to report. That is what they have always done, since the days of Babylon.

"If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you read the newspaper, you're mis-informed." — Mark Twain

This is how the software works.

The school district has the names of every computer and who they are issued to, as well as the MAC Address of the Wireless and Wired NIC's and the units Serial Number. Apple computer send the SN when they get updates with Apple, and the NIC is tracked by a security database and a security company partnered with some 60 US ISPs. We tell them a computer is stolen, and give them the MAC Addresses and S/N. They find it, and email our recovery expert images from the camera. When it's powered on, and usually every few minutes it's on. He forwards this to the local police who investigate. In some cases if the police need help in ID they will get with a principle, or teacher with the images, but that is up to the police to do not us. in my district of 8000 employees and many times that in students, at a half dozen high school, and only 2 people have direct access to the images via email. One is the head of technology, and one is the person in charge of recovery.

This PA district is very small, only 2600 issued is not many, and 42 turned on is very few also. We recover about 150 computers a year, and activate the software a multiple of that. Most of the time it's a misplaced laptop. A teacher left it at home when we inventoried, or someone transfered to another school and forgot to turn it in, and get a different one from the other school, or something like that.

In some cases we found students say "I lost my laptop" so they don't have to turn in work, then 2 days later turn in the work without telling the teacher they 'found' their laptop. The system can be activated just that easily, and the parent never knows the student reported anything.

http://www.computerworld.com/s/arti...trict_denies_spying_on_students_with_MacBooks

Gag order in effect. Last and only statements by the school districts are here.

the district had acknowledged that cameras had been remotely activated by technology personnel 42 times so far this school year. The cameras were switched on only as part of efforts to recover lost or stolen machines, said Christopher McGinley, superintendent of Lower Merion.

Lindy Matsko, the Harriton High School assistant vice principal "At no point in time did I have the ability to access any webcam through security tracking software,"

obviously the PA district didn't follow whatever XYZ and CYA protocols. Infact their people are quite proud of their "curtain" mode.

"you're controlling someone's machine, you don't want them to know what you're doing"
-Mike Perbix


And more:

The beacon feature appears to have been one of the primary methods for remote spying, however, network footprints abound over the details and architecture of the remote administration effort. In this post, Perbix discusses methods for remotely resetting the firmware lockout used to prevent jailbreaking of student laptops. A jailbreak would have allowed students to monitor their own webcam to determine if administrators were truly taking pictures or if, as the school administration claimed, the blinking webcams were just "a glitch."

This school district is going down. They've got the Feds all in their business, civil suits, a lot of angry parents. Hell you shouldn't be on the internets yourself.
 
You knew that it was possible and legal for them to search your locker, right? You (presumably) knew when your locker was searched, right? And they had to have reason to suspect that something suspicious was in the locker before they searched it, right?

So really, what you're saying is that your situation is not at all like the situation described in the OP. So what is your point?

Well you really need to go watch that particular video. Because what I am saying is relevant to the original poster.

I have never had to have my locker searched. I have seen them search other people's lockers. I am sure they have some policy of when and how they do it. And judging by what others have posted it is different from when I went to school (I graduated in 89). When you use other peoples things, and in this case public property, why would you expect you have privacy? In that video, I have no problem with what they were doing, because it was/is just like a work environment. If the laptop however was used at home during non school hours, I would want to see the school districts monitoring policy to read and understand it.

To me what was shown in that video is no different than what could happen on any workplace computer. So obviously we are seeing two different things.
 
He's more than welcome to remotely check which applications and games the students are using on the laptops during school hours on school property.

He has absolutely no legal recourse to access the webcams or the webcam application at anytime on the the laptops. It skirts way too close to voyerism and will lead to easy lawsuits against the school system.

If you think the webcam access is ok, then you might think it's ok for the school to install two way mirrors in the bathrooms with an observation room on the other side.
The halls and classrooms can have cameras. I don't see how the laptop camera is any different. They actually had the webcam app up though, so it wasn't that he was using the webcam, but that they were using it and he was monitoring the desktop.

And webcam access has little to nothing to do with the bathroom. :D I can't believe that's actually a comparable situation. It isn't. Bathrooms have staff that can come in and monitor when needed.

But bottom line is the student's job is to be there to learn and it's the staff's responsibility to make sure that happens. These tools enable them to do that and in a world where parents don't give a shit about accountability or their child's performance, they need it.

Besides, I got the impression the kids are aware of the monitoring. That much was clear.
 
Wow. What a socially accepting web we have woven here... Privacy, Smivacy. So sad...

Sounds like your education is about the same quality that these unfortunate kids were receiving. Take a civics class some time and float your theory there. In a public setting you have no expectation of privacy. In your home yes, out in public no.
 
I was feeling the same way.

Kids have been checking out library books for generations. They are school property. I wonder how they managed for all this time w/o web cams?

Everyone gets a locker at school. Are they going to put web cams into the lockers too?

This just seems like a tool for lazy teachers to threaten children into being disciplined. But I fear all it will do is train kids to be at ease with losing more of their basic rights.

Again, public places. No prudent person would reasonably believe that they have an expectation to privacy in these situations. Lockers get searched with out a warrant all the time. You are getting a book from a public library. I beleive even then there is a warrant needed for you borrowing history. Don't want that paper trail then either read the books at the library of use cash.

Again some courses in modern civics is sorely needed here.
 
This is part of the acceptable user policy that each student and faculity member has to sign at the start of every school year:

" ********** ***** actively monitors all computer and network activity, internet use, and file
server space at multiple different levels ranging from network traffic, files left on computers and
user desktop activity."

It clearly states that you will be monitored while on our campus.
 
This is part of the acceptable user policy that each student and faculity member has to sign at the start of every school year:

" ********** ***** actively monitors all computer and network activity, internet use, and file
server space at multiple different levels ranging from network traffic, files left on computers and
user desktop activity."

It clearly states that you will be monitored while on our campus.

Why bother posting. It's like trying to explain fire to Chimpanzee's.
 
As long as the school official are monitoring responsibly then I see no problem at all with monitoring the kids usage of SCHOOL resources.

I have a daughter in school myself. I would like to know her usage of school resource is appropriate.

I also remember causing some problems in school. I had people around me to help reign thing in. One of the schools I went to now has so many problems that I wouldn't let my kid within a mile of their campus. problems that arose from all of the this unfettered student freedom coupled with PC bullshit that led some schools back to the edge of being a wild wild west campus.

Now I will be the first to admit there will be some school system employees who will fuck up and use the monitoring access incorrectly. There have been teach, janitors, administrators, and principals who have gone to jail for photos and more. But on the whole I think andy monitoring controls those people have will be used wisely.
 
This is part of the acceptable user policy that each student and faculity member has to sign at the start of every school year:

" ********** ***** actively monitors all computer and network activity, internet use, and file
server space at multiple different levels ranging from network traffic, files left on computers and
user desktop activity."

It clearly states that you will be monitored while on our campus.

Exactly.

The most important thing our kids can learn is that YOU DO NOT HAVE RIGHTS.

The bill of rights and the constitution only apply to the federal government.

The United States is not a democracy, it is a republic founded on Libertarian principles. If you sign a contract you have to abide by it, period, or accept the full consequences (in this case you don't graduate and your life is deservedly f-cked).

If you don't like it move to europe or canada. Otherwise, man up and face the fact that on property you do not ownm or under a contract, you have no rights at all in a free country.

Our kids need lesson our kids need to learn two vital lessons: 1) Know who is in charge 2) Do what you are told
 
The halls and classrooms can have cameras. I don't see how the laptop camera is any different. They actually had the webcam app up though, so it wasn't that he was using the webcam, but that they were using it and he was monitoring the desktop.

And webcam access has little to nothing to do with the bathroom. :D I can't believe that's actually a comparable situation. It isn't. Bathrooms have staff that can come in and monitor when needed.

But bottom line is the student's job is to be there to learn and it's the staff's responsibility to make sure that happens. These tools enable them to do that and in a world where parents don't give a shit about accountability or their child's performance, they need it.

Besides, I got the impression the kids are aware of the monitoring. That much was clear.

Well, the problem is that in Philadelphia, a school principal and his staff have been remotely accessing the webcams in the school notebooks while the students have them on at home in their bedrooms. Students have discovered that they were being monitored while they were undressing in their bedrooms.
So you see, there is no legal option for schools to access the webcams or webcam software on the laptops without being accused of voyerism and subject to massive lawsuits. There's a huge difference between hall monitors or a teacher walking around in the classroom vs. secretly spying with the webcams.
 
Well, the problem is that in Philadelphia, a school principal and his staff have been remotely accessing the webcams in the school notebooks while the students have them on at home in their bedrooms. Students have discovered that they were being monitored while they were undressing in their bedrooms.
So you see, there is no legal option for schools to access the webcams or webcam software on the laptops without being accused of voyerism and subject to massive lawsuits. There's a huge difference between hall monitors or a teacher walking around in the classroom vs. secretly spying with the webcams.


Best thing to do is stop issuing laptops with webcams in them and recall any that do.
 
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