RAID: 0? 1? 0+1? 1+0?

Undercover_Man

[H]ard Surgeon
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Jan 17, 2010
Messages
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Hello. I'm new to RAID and I was trying to figure out which would be the best solution for me. I am building a new computer and I am trying to decide how many hard drives I need and how I was going to set them up.

First off, this is what I was thinking:

RAID 1
Drive 1: C:/ - Windows
Drive 2: C:/ - Windows

RAID 1
Drive 3: D:/ - Installed Programs
Drive 4: D:/ - Installed Programs

RAID 1:
Drive 5: E:/ - Misc. Files
Drive 6: E:/ - Misc. Files

Why did I think this would work for me? Because if one of the drives failed for one of the drive letters, then I'd have a backup and be able to pick up from where I left off. Actually, I've been starting to think that since D: is seperate from C:, that if Windows got a virus or decided to start BSODing or an event happened causing me to reinstall Windows, I would still have my save files and game settings and stuff on D: so maybe RAID 0 for C: would be better.

Then I saw 0+1 and 1+0 RAID's existed. I thought to myself that this must be two or more smaller drives making up a bigger capacity "drive" and that set was mirrored. That's what it sounded like for 1+0.

Then I was thinking that 0+1 was kinda the same thing except I got confused the more I thought about it and read about the two.

Basically, I want security in the event that a drive fails. If I can have additional capacity as a result of a RAID configuration than awesome. And I don't want whatever I do to affect the performance of the drives.

I was thinking of two SSD's for Windows (either mirrored for security or set as a bigger C: capacity), two Raptors for Programs (I was thinking RAID 1 for security), and WD Caviars for Misc. (Since this drive won't need to be as fast like the programs. It's mainly a storage for misc. things.)

The SSD thing I think makes since since SSD's are faster than HDD's. But I don't know which raid would make more sense.

As for the Raptors, I was told that Raptors don't benefit from their additional speed until you raid multiple drives of 2 or more in raid 0, otherwise they are no faster than normal HDD's. Is this true? Would that apply to a dual disk raid 1 setup?

And for the Misc. E: drives, I figured the normal Caviars would be best since they don't need to be as fast as the Raptors but still be quick nonetheless. I was thinking raid 1 for security since this will hold my music and photos and saved photo and video edits as well as any downloads I may download.

Currently, I have 1 drive partitioned into 3. I like to keep D: and E: seperate for organizational purposes. Would it make more sense to combine D: and E: into 1 drive (2x raid 1) for my new rig and use the Raptor drives?? I suppose I could just have a folder, among my long list of installed programs, and name it "My Misc. Stuff". Or, can you raid two drives and partition them? That sounds like it'd be screwy with performance.

I am stuck and don't know how to proceed in outlining a plan for my upcoming drives. Thanks for reading. :)
 
raid 1+0 / 0+1 is 4hdds 2 drives make up a large drive and then they are mirrowed not very good you would be better with raid 5 or 6

as for the os been raid 1 you would get exactly the same on one drive as the other so if you get a glitch on one drive it is also on the other only time this is good is if a drive stops working

ssd are fast but get a hdd with a high cach and you would see the same speed

what i have done my self is have a 500gb hdd in my pc and then have a windows home server for files and backup of computer
 
ssd are fast but get a hdd with a high cach and you would see the same speed

not so sure about that sequential reads on SSD are anywhere from 60MB/s to 150MB/s faster than HDD

and with random reads there's no contest.

raptor's are faster than regular HDD, but now it's not a good way to spend your money when SSDs are about the same price but alot faster.


http://www.anandtech.com/storage/showdoc.aspx?i=3607&p=4
the 300GB Velociraptor max sequential read is 120GB, where the SSDs are all over 200.
random it's close to zero.
 
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yeah but the amount they cost to the size dosent figure to me two rapters in raid 1 would double the read rights and there for make them a good contender wouldent they
 
that's if the controller can do striped reads from both drives.

i'm not aware of what controller capable of doing this
 
What's your budget?

My suggestion:

Get 1 SSD for OS & Apps. ( 1 x Intel X25-M 80Gb )

Then 2 x big HDD's for storage. (2 x WD 1Tb black)

That's what I have & love it.
 
160gb ssd as os and apps as games do take large amount of space

then i would prob go with whs for file storage and backup that you you dont bog down ur pc with files

i tend to download on pc edit them then move them to the server for storage and shareing
 
Does raiding drives affect performance?

I was thinking for the Windows installation only files, I'd use two SSD with raid 0 (or one big one depending on max capacity and cost compared to the 2 lower capacity drives and cost plus the decrease in speed).

I want to try to re-explain how I am currently protecting myself in the event of a unforeseen Windows reinstallation. All my partitions are on one hard drive so I am not protected from a hard drive failure. My whole point of this thread is to see if there is another possible solution incorporating my current protection from a Windows reinstallation and in the event one of my hard drives dies in my new rig.

C:
Right now, I have my D: (Programs) and E: (Misc Files) partitioned separately because if Windows crashes or I need to reinstall Windows and I need a reinstall, nearly ALL Installed Programs in D: will not work because they are all tethered to Windows registry in one way or another.

This way, any saved games, settings, configs, etc. which, mostly get saved to the programs' installed folder anyways, will still be intact after I wipe the C: partition and reinstall Windows. That's my security that I am trying to figure out how to preserve, but I was thinking using multiple drives and using raid would give me some sort of additional protection and maybe a performance boost somehow.

D:
After I reinstall Windows, I just have to make a new folder in D:, such as "Old D", and move all folders to that one folder and I can reinstall all my programs and copy/paste any settings or saves or whatever to the reinstalled programs that reestablished a link to Windows registry. I delete files in the "Old D" folder as I go along and reinstall my programs as needed.

E:
The reason I keep my E: (Misc. Files) separate from my C: and D: is because if I have to reinstall Windows, E: is wiped, and I keep it away from D: for additional organizational purposes. I was also thinking, for my new rig, that if I kept D: and E: as separate DRIVES, that if D: were to fail or get a virus, my E: files would be safe. I consider my E: files up utmost importance over both C: and D:. I can always figure out which programs I had previously installed on D: and I can always figure out my settings and configs aver again, having D: protected from C: crashing is just a really big convenience in the event of a Windows reinstallation.


Did I make any sense? I don't know, but it makes sense to me. Or am I overlooking something and making myself look crazy? :confused:


Is there another better, more efficient way that I can protect my Installed Programs and Misc. Files from an unforeseen Windows reinstallation PLUS protect them all from hard drive failures, IN ADDITION to protecting both my Installed Programs and Misc. Files from each other in the event I need to wipe my Installed Files too (or the drive containing the Installed Programs fails) therefore keeping my most important Misc. Files safe and sound?

I don't need any protection from accidental deletion or overwrites. In other words, I don't need to have a feature where I can "go back in time" a bit to retrieve a file that is no longer there, as I am very cautious in what I delete and have never had a case where I wished I could go back in time to retrieve a deleted file. Protection from Windows failures and drive failures is most important to me.


*PHEW* Did I explain that all clearly? I sure hope I did. I wanted to be more simple but it ended up being long anyways.

Is there a solution to my needs?

I was thinking two separate drives for each drive letter (C:, D:, and E: ) and then mirroring D: and E: while using raid 0 for C to give me a bigger Windows capacity. But I didn't know if it was possible with the drives I was planning on buying and if it would affect performance of the drives.

I was thinking SSD's for Windows (C: ), Raptors for the Installed Programs because using SSD's wouldn't give me enough capacity and would cost way too much to get to the capacity I needed and the Raptors would be the next best move to SSD's since programs benefit from faster drives (D: ), and normal 1TB/2TB WD Caviars for E: since Windows doesn't have to interact with anything from E: therefore speed isn't as big of an issue like with D:.

Would the above work? Am I thinking crazy-like? I don't have a server and don't have the money to invest in one so I have to make do with what I have with this new rig. Any suggestions? I don't know if the layout I mentioned above would affect drive performance negatively or slow anything down or if I needed a dedicated raid card or if there was something better besides using a server and manually backing tons and tons of GB's on a routine basis which wouldn't protect anything from the time I last backed up to the time of drive failure/Windows reinstallation.
 
i run vista and xp in dual boot plus a data pertition for swaping between the diff os's trust me easy than permissions etc

with what it is going to cost you for the hard drive's you could easy build a whs or buy one
these offer daily weekly and monthly back up plus a away to back up the backups to an external hdd for off site storage
yes you could loose a day of stuff but really how mutch would that be all the big company backup like this

you can configer whs to back up other drives you have in ur system all so

this seems a far better way then haveing to have mutilpe raid cards or multiple raid set up on the mother board whs would make ur life alot less hassle trust me
 
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By WHS I assume you mean Windows Home Server? What do you mean by build/buy one? I have no experience with servers whatsoever and I don't think I'd have the money to build another computer to make a server out of.

And I have to have a separate raid card if I wanted to raid another set of drives? Hmmm....I didn't know that.

Hmmm....this is so confusing. All I want is the ability to mirror and have three separate drive letters. :(
 
ok windows home server is very easy to use my gf can use it lol and thats saying something

as building one a 1gb cpu 512 memory and well what ever hdds you have is ide ok is sata then you would need a sata controller but by the sounds of things in the long run whs seems your best option to me large storage for music mp3's pictures but also nightly backups of what ever pc's you have
 
I agree with Dasimpson. For not much more money you could build a WHS for dedicated backups. Plus, running that much raid on a desktop is just tempting fate , IMHO.


If it were me, and I were doing it this is what I would consider. Get a mobo with ICH0R raid, (one of the new intel boards with the matrix storage deal) , and 2 Western digital 640 gig Blues. I would partition a 140 gig raid 1. Then I would do a 1 Tb raid 0 stripe with whats left.

If funds allow or you absolutely need that third partition then get an SSD, and then do the two 640's in a raid 0 stripe. ( this would be the fastest route) Notice I said one SSD.

With what you save from one SSD you can build a simple WHS box. Notice one caveat Im gonna throw out here about WHS. Its good, but it does have hiccups once in a while, so on mine I do a WHS backup AND a Hard Drive Image gets stored too. That way if something goes screwy with my WHS backup database I still have the image and vice versa.

Now then with all the money you saved, seriously look into one of the following options for backup 1) WHS 2) dedicated program and external drive
 
I had similar concerns, I have 6 physical, internal, drives,

2 ssd's in RAID 0 - where windows and my apps live - I have a pair of 120's, IMO it's overkill, a single Intel 160 would have been a smarter purchase.

4 WD 640's - using the intel matrix I have them set-up as a 1 TB data drive in RAID 0+1 and a fast 4 drive RAID 0 that I use for a scratch disk. The 0+1 has faster writes than a RAID 5 and only marginally slower reads. It was the way to go IMO. The scratch disk gets used for photoshop, temporary installs and, when my RAMDISK is acting up, /temp directories.

In either case RAID 1 or 5 is not a substitute for a back-up plan, it will keep you on line, but in all reality it probably causes more failures than it saves. I have two external drives that I use for back-up, one is a ESATA 1 TB that gets daily dumps and the other is a 1 TB that gets weekly (or more) dumps that lives in my fire safe. I include a daily image of my OS drive on the back-up, this saved my ass just last week when I had to install a new board (I was up and running in a couple of hours using a recover disk)
 
Hmmm....I don't think I have room, the extra internet connetion, power outlets, or even money for another computer after this monster one. I already am going to have to come up with some sort of smart plan for the power outlets and I won't have internet for a while for my new computer and I definately don't have the room for a 4th computer as big as my monster one will be. That's why I was thinking extra drives set up somehow for the next best security I could get similar to what I have now would be the next best bet for me.

I just don't know how to set up the drives I get or what raid to use. I agree, a server would be a better option, but I don't have the extra room or power outlets in here or any way for it to communicate to it if I had it in another room which doesn't have internet connections. hmmmm..... :confused:
 
whs are not very big one power socket and network cable so not to much i have 2 pc's under my desk and have about 8 sockets
 
Hmm, you dont have the outlets, money, network,or cash to build a 30 watt, sub $200 system, a $5 power strip, and a $30 switch, yet your asking about nested raid and dropping terms like SSD and Velociraptor ????

What your suggesting building is a huge waste of money, power, and resources, and you still wont have the data security you desire.
 
Hmm, you dont have the outlets, money, network,or cash to build a 30 watt, sub $200 system, a $5 power strip, and a $30 switch, yet your asking about nested raid and dropping terms like SSD and Velociraptor ????

What your suggesting building is a huge waste of money, power, and resources, and you still wont have the data security you desire.

Simple and shorter way,

Raid is not a backup
 
First and foremost: RAID is not a form of safety or backup. The BEST way to protect against drive failure if the data is critically important is to have an external storage device like a NAS, external hard drive, or server to store a copy of that data.

Second: Ditch the Raptors if you haven't already bought them. They're basically a waste of money these days considering the following:
- Many consumer 7200RPM drives (Western Digital 640GB Blue/Black drives and Samsung F3 500GB drives) are just as fast as many Velociraptor drives out there. Yet those consumer 7200RPM drives are often at least half the price or even 1/3rd of the price of many Velociraptor drives.
- Many SSDs are significantly faster than many Velociraptor drives

So basically go for the above mentioned consumer drives than a Velociraptor.

Third: Many viruses these days can jump from drive to drive. So your plan for your more important data to be on the E: drive to protect against viruses will only work against dumb viruses and worms.

RAID 0 will defintiely provide faster application/games loading. RAID 1 doesn't provide that much of a performance increase. RAID 5 using the onboard mobo RAID will be signicantly slower than a single drive. RAID 5 using a true hardware RAID controller.

Also if you need to wipe the OS or the D:/ drive, just unplugg the E: drive to avoid the possibility of you doing something stupid like wiping the drive. Simple as that.

Hmmm....I don't think I have room, the extra internet connetion, power outlets, or even money for another computer after this monster one. I already am going to have to come up with some sort of smart plan for the power outlets and I won't have internet for a while for my new computer and I definately don't have the room for a 4th computer as big as my monster one will be.

Wait wait, you already have two computers already? What are those other two PCs for?

Ok let's look at some actual costs:

For the D: array: A RAID 0 150GB Velociraptor setup (300GB RAID 0) would cost $300. A RAID 0 Samsung F3 500GB drive setup (1TB RAID 0) would provide at least 90% of the performance of a RAID 0 150GB Velociraptor setup but at one-thirds the costs. So that's a minimum savings of $200.

Now let's look at RAID 1 for the E: array: Now, as already mentioned above, if you're reinstalling Windows, just unplug the SATA cable for the E: drive. That protects against accidental overwriting installation. A seperate drive already protects against the D: drive failing as well as many "dumb" viruses and worms. So basically you can go with a single drive for this. Assuming that you go with a single 1TB drive instead of 1TB RAID, that's another savings of $100.

So we've saved $300 so far. For another $90, you can easily get a WHS server:
$390 - Acer Aspire Easystore H340 Windows Home Server

Then add the $5 power strip and $30 switch, and you'll now have a backup source for the data on your E: drive at the very least out of the box. So you would not have protection against semi-smart viruses and worms (the ones that don't spread through an entire PC network quickly), a seperation of your E: and D: drives, and a backup of the data on the E: drive. If you want backup of the D: drive array, just add another 1TB drive to the above WHS setup. The Acer Easystore is small, compact, and definitely doesn't use that much power.

Judging from your previous posts and threads, I'm willing to bet your planned gaming PC build is over-built, over-specced, and over-priced where more than likely significant cost-savings can be made. Which means that more than likely you'll be able to afford the $430 or so for an Acer Easystore
 
So we've saved $300 so far. For another $90, you can easily get a WHS server:
$390 - Acer Aspire Easystore H340 Windows Home Server

Then add the $5 power strip and $30 switch, and you'll now have a backup source for the data on your E: drive at the very least out of the box. So you would not have protection against semi-smart viruses and worms (the ones that don't spread through an entire PC network quickly), a seperation of your E: and D: drives, and a backup of the data on the E: drive. If you want backup of the D: drive array, just add another 1TB drive to the above WHS setup. The Acer Easystore is small, compact, and definitely doesn't use that much power.

Ok, let me get this straight cuz I don't know how those work. So you're basically saying that if I get an Acer Aspire Easystore system, that if I put 2 or 3 drives in my new computer, I'd have to have the same amount of drives in the server and they magically backup?

If I got one, how would I set it up? What does it have to be connected directly to and using what? Is the backup automatic or do I have to run something on my computer to have it backup? Does it backup at the same time as I'm writing data to my computer hard drives? I guess what I'm asking is, is the backup process live or a scheduled delay? Does is slow down my system any or use any additional process? Do the drives in the box have to be the same as the ones in my system? Say I had 2x 500MB drives in my system, can I back both drives up to a 1TB drive in the little box or do I have to have 2x 500MB drives in there?

Like I said, I've never used a server or anything of that sort before but I think that's the best solution in my case. As long as I can have my hard drives in my case protected from failure and viruses, then that's cool with me. Not having to spend the extra money on doubling up on hard drives in my case while not having much protection is fine with me as long as there is another better solution. Since this sounds like it'll be the best option for me, I want to learn more about this little server box thing and implement it with my computer. Possibly even get a bigger one to backup ALL the drives in the house if that's possible.
 
Ok, let me get this straight cuz I don't know how those work. So you're basically saying that if I get an Acer Aspire Easystore system, that if I put 2 or 3 drives in my new computer, I'd have to have the same amount of drives in the server and they magically backup?

Not the same amount of drives but the same amount of storage. Get what I'm saying? So if you have 1.5TB of data, technically, all you need to do is add another 500GB drive to that Acer and you can back up all of your data. With that said, if you want duplication on, you would need to have roughly 3TB of WHS storage for 1.5TB of actual data with duplication turned on.


If I got one, how would I set it up? What does it have to be connected directly to and using what? Is the backup automatic or do I have to run something on my computer to have it backup? Does it backup at the same time as I'm writing data to my computer hard drives? I guess what I'm asking is, is the backup process live or a scheduled delay? Does is slow down my system any or use any additional process? Do the drives in the box have to be the same as the ones in my system? Say I had 2x 500MB drives in my system, can I back both drives up to a 1TB drive in the little box or do I have to have 2x 500MB drives in there?

Read this FAQ thread as it'll answer most of your questions:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1390750

In addition, hit up the MS site for WHS:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/products/winfamily/windowshomeserver/faq.mspx

If you still have questions, ask them again AFTER reading through the above links.
 
Alright, I actually checked out the HP MediaSmart Server which I think is the same thing as the Acer but anyways I think I'd be interested in getting something like this straight after I build my monster pc.

Do I *have* to buy something like the HP or Acer thing or can I build one myself? I have a spare computer that I'm still troubleshooting but I was wondering if I could use that. It's quite old and doesn't support sata or anything tho. It's an old, possibly pre-2000-2001 computer. AMD K9 or something like that.

I saw the specs on these two machines and I saw they didn't require much advanced tech meaning cheap build. I think I like this idea a lot and am now wanting to fund it after my monster pc if I can manage to drag myself away from all the games I'll be immersed in.

So if I can build one, all I'd need is to buy the parts, install WinHMS, and configure it and I'd be all set?

I'd like to know a nice parts list for this server. I have a set limit now, but it will be released after my pc gets built. I can spend as much as my paychecks allow me to put in the bank. So let me know what I need to consider when buying parts so I can make the most reliable server I can build. I'll prolly need around 8TB total as my PC will start off with about 4TB's at least and I'll want to provide backup to around 2TB's total to the rest of the computers in the house and a couple more TB's for all-around storage for all the computers to share.

Thanks for the solution to my problem. I look forward to being a n00b server admin if that's what I'd technically be. :)
 
well put it this way my whs is a 600mhz p3 and 512mb of memory i have a 160 ide drive and a 250ide drive but you can get sata cards they just slot into i pci slot and give you sata connection the cheap ones work well with whs
you also got to think about is do i wont it hot swap so they is no down time (this costs more money) or turn it off to add a new drive(costs less just get a good case that can hold lots of drives)
you also got to think on what you wont to do with it just run as a server or do you wont to run vm's etc
maybe a list of parts you have would help us help you further you can drop me a pm if you like
 
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Yah, I am currently panicking my credit card by searching a whole new set of computer parts for a new server. Since this has kinda turned off topic now, I will create a new thread so keep a look out for it within the hour. Thanks for the help!!!!
 
To add to the previous excellent posts. You can buy or build yourself one. I took some older PC's that basically werent doing anything and converted them over. It doesnt take much computing power. Now, lets say for example you have a 120 gig or so SSD as your main drive. And you ar using about 90 gigs of it. And you have about another 250 gigs worth of music, documents, game saves, game data, etc you would really like to keep. Youll need a minimum of about 400 gigs to store all that on a WHS ( with a little extra space to allow for growth) and youlll need about 1 Tb to store it and duplicate it. The nice thing is once you get more familiar with WHS, and whatnot , youll eventually move your less accessed stuff over to it. ( pictures you dont necessarily look at every day but still wanna keep, etc.) And you can schedule backups to happen when you want, and yes, it does slow down your system some, but once the first backup is done they dont take too long and they dont cripple youre machine, although Im sure if you were gaming you might notice a backup started, and on lower power machines it is noticeable.

I think in the end, youll have a better setup. Youll have a much less complicated main machine to game and work from, with a pretty robust backup/server.
 
ok well i just looked on ebay you could get a motherboard with ram and cpu ok secound hand for about $20 to $50 i looked at motherboards with at least 5 or 6 pci slots for 4 port sata cards or 8 port one what ever you can get cheapest and well apart from case and hdd you be up and away for next to nothing
 
you posted that in the wrong section m8 you wont it in the data storage section as that what your building i sent you a couple of links in pm any questions just pm me and ill help in the second link i sent he says you dont need alot of pci slots more is better as well as onboard sata connections the more raid card you can fir the more hdd's you can have
 
Yah, I didn't know which section to put it under so I just picked that one. I'll ask a mod to move it if I don't get much help from that section.
 
I kind of think you're over thinking and overcomplicating this whole thing.

Your PC use
1 x 160Gb (or 80Gb) Intel X25-M for OS and some apps.
2 x 1Tb WD black in Raid 1 for mission critical Apps and additional important storage. (2 drive letters)
(you can make it 2 x 500Gb partitions)

Then get a USB 3.0 1Tb Harddrive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136516&cm_re=usb_3.0-_-22-136-516-_-Product This should fit all of your back up data.

Back up regularly and put your USB harddrive in a small fireproof vault when not in use. Use SyncToy, its free from Microsoft or other back up software that only backs up new or changed files.

This is more secure, as if you have some catastrophic event like a fire or direct lightening strike, you could lose all data in both of your PC's, etc. My brother had some electrical surge (not sure exactly as a few of his neighbors were also affected) happen at his house and even with surge protectors on everything, (including a $300 Monster brand for his media room), he lost a ton of electronics.

You need your back up system unplugged & fireproofed for better protection.
 
<puts tin foil hat on>

I don't trust my data off site. I trust that they won't lose it. But I don't trust that someone else can't get in to it, or hack their servers. I've had a few (hosted) websites of mine, where someone got in to the main directories and messed with my website. Minor stuff, but it wasn't my personal information, pictures, etc.. But the webhost got hacked on a few occasions. I've switched to a more secure host since then. But obviously anything is possible, if Google can't even protect themselves!!

Lets say I have bank account info, passwords, or my shetland pony + midget porn collection.

Granted my PC could be hacked, but putting it on 2+ computers connected to the net doubles to triples the chances of hacking.

Where backing it up to a USB device filed away in a fireproof safe is protected from virtually everything.
 
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