Now that I have my new 650's..

I was thinking of a getting a headroom Amp/DAC , anyone here have any advice for me on that front? Is it worth dumping 599 bucks into a seperate and fully amp'd supply from the desktop output of optical digital?

Currently running a X-Fi Forte.

IMO, I think the 650's need a good powered discrete amp. And that is the general consensus over at Head Fi too (Anyone feel free to discount that if it has changed).

The Headroom Desktop series is definitely worth the money but I am unsure if it is worth your money. What are you planing on using this for?

If you are serious about sound quality and spend a lot of time using headphones to listen to music and plan on expanding your headphone collection, it sure is.

If you are not and this is for gaming or low quality mp3 etc, a cheaper optional amp only might be the way to go. Don't go discounting the Forte's DAC.



Give us some info on your habits with music, what you like listening too, general use and a budget and we can probably help you better.

I would say the entire "line" of headphones that lead to the 650 (565, 580, 600, 600J, and 650) need a decent driver, the headphone amp soundcards should be no problem, nor should a receiver with a proper headphone out stage (meaning it uses the actual amp stage, and not a cheapo deluxe opamp somewhere in there), spending a grand on a headphone amp seems ridiculous either way

as far as DAC comparisons, I'm sure we'll get some wonderful "facts" about why an external solution is the only possible way to convert digital to analog in the entire universe and no other method will ever work for nay reason; honestly just keep the Forte as is, 109 dB S/N on the output and basically lower-than-low IMD/THD, gonna be no problems whatsoever

I'm thinking of buying some 650s as well, and on head-fi people are recommending a tube amp to drive these really well.

Anyone have some opinions on the Little Dot MK 4 SE or whatever version it is? I am looking for the same info as the OP. External DAC + tube amp, is that a good combo? Not sure which ones to pick...

CJRP said:

I'm thinking of buying some 650s as well, and on head-fi people are recommending a tube amp to drive these really well.

Anyone have some opinions on the Little Dot MK 4 SE or whatever version it is? I am looking for the same info as the OP. External DAC + tube amp, is that a good combo? Not sure which ones to pick...

Click to expand...

by no means is a tube amp required to "drive them well", either filter the subjective drib out or just give into it, but at least accept that its pure subjective conjecture, with no basis in fact

honestly the Forte is entirely capable, and there is no "missing dimension" (contrary to what people claim it "feels" like, there is no factual data to support such claims), alternately you could look at the Asus Xonar STX or HT Omega Claro

furthermore, an external D/A solution is not required (again, contrary to opinionated claims about the "extra dimensions" or "enhanced definition", there is no support to these claims either)

Not sure about extra dimensions, but a decent source will bring more life out of them. Underpowered they sound kinda dull and lose impact. People recommend tube amps because tubes naturally have a high output impedance and a larger voltage swing.

Sound will come out of them, but not the best sound. Although, it might be better than what you are used to anyway.

bdr529 said:

Not sure about extra dimensions, but a decent source will bring more life out of them. Underpowered they sound kinda dull and lose impact. People recommend tube amps because tubes naturally have a high output impedance and a larger voltage swing.

Sound will come out of them, but not the best sound. Although, it might be better than what you are used to anyway.

Click to expand...

again, there is no factual basis for this claim aside from the power ouput capabilities of a tube amp, which is nothing unique to tubes, it purely depends on the amplifier design, in other words there is no justification for overpriced audiophile doodads other than the feel-good buddies you'll make online

CJRP said:

I'm thinking of buying some 650s as well, and on head-fi people are recommending a tube amp to drive these really well.

Click to expand...

Tubes are just preferred by some.

obobski said:

again, there is no factual basis for this claim aside from the power ouput capabilities of a tube amp, which is nothing unique to tubes, it purely depends on the amplifier design, in other words there is no justification for overpriced audiophile doodads other than the feel-good buddies you'll make online

Click to expand...

Then do you own a pair of 650's? Because I do and have for a long time. I wouldn't say he needs an amp, because I have no idea about the power the Forte is putting out. Nor would I say he needs a tube amp.

But is their a good chance he will need an amp? IMO, most definitely. Should anyone necessarily take anyones word online as gospel? Of course not.

Audio is the most subjective thing to talk about on the internet, even more so once you get at or near the high end, which we are when talking 650's.


And you should be glad you only think you'll make online friends. I can hear the difference and my wallet has paid to hear that difference. Not to mention nothing in this thread is a high priced audio doo dad. Massive lols on that!

But the OP should DEFINITELY ABSOLUTELY try an amp with his 650's and make up his own mind.

obobski said:

again, there is no factual basis for this claim aside from the power ouput capabilities of a tube amp, which is nothing unique to tubes, it purely depends on the amplifier design, in other words there is no justification for overpriced audiophile doodads other than the feel-good buddies you'll make online

Click to expand...

So you acknowledge different power output capabilities, yet want to believe there is NO effect whatsoever.

The differences are not worth it to everyone but they are there.

if this thread is just going to degrade into "oh I feel its better and that makes it a fact and if you provide actual numbers that doesn't matter because those numbers are your opinion" (which is where its at now) theres no point in anyone posting because if thats the assertion, nobody's opinion then matters (doesn't matter who you are, you dont matter, based on that assertion), because its all based on the concept of quality or benefits from the perspective of the observer (and the observer alone), and anyone else is not the observer, so therefore any 3rd party opinions do not matter; it can't be both ways, you can either give advice (and that advice can either be "I feel this" or "the data says this, and the data don't lie") or you can say that the only way for the questioner to make a decision is by themselves, based on their own experiential and subjective standards, in which case ANY 3rd party data or conversation is ENTIRELY worthless

and this seems to be the exact situation that many "internet audiophiles" seem to love to get into, if facts or numbers are brought up which make a valid point (but "they don't matter because those numbers are just someone else's opinion and I don't like them so that makes the numbers and engineering invalid based on my own personal feelings") it instantly turns into "I know there is a difference FOR A FACT because I HAVE HEARD IT regardless of what ANY data says I AM AN AUTHORITY however NOBODY can tell the questioner except the questioner's own opinion what they should do; questioner you MUST do what I HAVE SAID because I KNOW what is TRUE and FALSE and I AM TELLING YOU"

in other words the arguement is basically that the person with the most outlandish or subjective claim is the only one "qualified" to make any form of decision or provide any form of information, this is contrary to any objective or peer-reviewed context, generally the most informed or level-headed individual is the best candidate for decision making or advice, not the most outlandish

honestly, the numbers do matter and they do tell you exactly what the device is going to do, ignoring facts doesn't make them go away, just because a subjective or outlandish claim can be made, does not mean it is automatically a fact, it just means its an outlandish claim with no justification or scientific basis

bdr:
you misunderstood me, I'm saying there is no factual basis for a tube amp "warming them up" or "giving them life" (neither of these are objective, empircal measurements), however having proper power output does influence things, but tubes are not the only way to accomplish this, as long as the amplifier can handle the load, it works, doesn't matter what is "in the box", it works, it could be anything from a crystal radio set to an IC stereo amplifier, if it specs it works

Make a budget, get the best amp in that price range. Go used on Head-Fi. Mostly safe. Especially if they are a long timer. I would get a tube amp for the 650 just b/c I like them better with tubes. Of course, I had a massive 50 lb tube amp that also was a 10 watt per speaker amp. The SQ-84. THAT amp WILL "wake up" any headphone.

obobski said:

bdr:
you misunderstood me, I'm saying there is no factual basis for a tube amp "warming them up" or "giving them life" (neither of these are objective, empircal measurements), however having proper power output does influence things, but tubes are not the only way to accomplish this, as long as the amplifier can handle the load, it works, doesn't matter what is "in the box", it works, it could be anything from a crystal radio set to an IC stereo amplifier, if it specs it works

Click to expand...

you might find these educational, unless you want to believe different circuits behave exactly the same way.

http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubestuf/mctheory.htm

http://www.dogstar.dantimax.dk/tubestuf/miniblk3.htm

http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f5/new-improved-tube-faq-newbies-119389/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_amplifier

I have the HD600's amp'd with a Little Dot mkV feed by my Auzentech Prelude with an AD8620BR opamp. It sounds good. I've never tried to listen to the HD600's without an amp as it's impedance is high.

theres really nothing more that can be added to this thread, at least in a positive light, so I'm fairly certain that we're done here

hope everyone has a good evening/weekend

cheers

I gave you some facts and numbers about how tubes operate. I don't understand why you find it so hard to believe that different distortion characteristics have an effect on sound. You seem very biased on this subject for some reason, not sure what the problem is. Its more than just working, there are different ways of working and they all behave a little differently. Audio is just not 1s and 0s

Also, impedance does not make a headphone hard to drive. Some headphones work better with more power though. Tube amps happen to be naturally high impedance which make for closer match to the 300ohm senns. If you want more information about why impedance matching is useful look up maximum power transfer.

obobski said:

or you can say that the only way for the questioner to make a decision is by themselves, based on their own experiential and subjective standards, in which case ANY 3rd party data or conversation is ENTIRELY worthlesss

Click to expand...

I disagree. Third party conversation is always applicable. Your preference for raw data makes third party debate worthless. If the only thing that proves anything is the numbers then as long as you know the numbers you know everything. When something is subjective, such as audio, is when you ask questions. As a long time audiophile I know that we are all different but I also know that we are very similar and therefore the more conversation the more feedback the more the chance you will find someone with an opinion similar to yours. But if the data is right, my data will never be different from your data.

obobski said:

in other words the arguement is basically that the person with the most outlandish or subjective claim is the only one "qualified" to make any form of decision or provide any form of information, this is contrary to any objective or peer-reviewed context, generally the most informed or level-headed individual is the best candidate for decision making or advice, not the most outlandish

Click to expand...

And yet you are the only one dealing in absolutes in this thread. I am a biologist by training and easily understand peer reviewed processes. But sound is ALWAYS subjective to the listener because each listener is different and that is a biological fact.

You seem to want to steer the OP away from any possibility of even trying an amp with his headphones because their is no data to support that. I am sorry but their is no data to support why I like 120hz TV's over 60hz but I do. And so be it.

You have your preference in wanting facts, I have my preference in wanting what I like. Honestly what is wrong with that?


Those of us who think he needs an amp have said why we think so let the OP decide and stop trying to move your agenda.

bdr529 said:

You seem very biased on this subject for some reason, not sure what the problem is. Its more than just working, there are different ways of working and they all behave a little differently. Audio is just not 1s and 0s
.

Click to expand...

He seems to be bringing in the outside audio debate as a whole and not the relevant information of the posts in this thread. I don't see anyone in this thread screaming from the mountain top, well.

Getting back to my original post , I listen to basicly lossless FLAC , WAV and some DVD-Audio. I'm not sure I'm ready to drop 1k on a tube amp and haven't really experience enough content with a tube amp to judge one way or another.

From what I've heard the headphone.com Amp/DAC's seem to have a better more natual sound as opposed to the Forte , also the lesser interference is suppose to produce a clear more well defined sound outside of the EMF jungle of a PC.

I like what I'm hearing now but I from what I've heard sinking a good amount of money into a proper amp/dac for the 650's can make them really shine for lossless material. I also play alot of blu-rays on my PC so thats even more higher quality audio I listen to. I also have a ton of low quality MP3/ACCs that I listen to as well so I really am covering a wide range of usage.

So after providing that infomation , would I be better off with a external Amp/DAC? Or would I really need to be a audiophile to notice a difference?

I think, the hd650's sound good out of an ipod. But benefit alot from a good amp and source. I would recommend a Tube amp like a darkvoice 336i,336se and a nice dac like the pico.

edit: If you wanted to really step it up I would wait for the LA FIGARO 332S, LA FIGARO is basically Darkvoice. The 332S is a upgraded 3322 and by the looks of the specs it will be amazing, it should be less than $500 shipped. As for the DAC, you can't go wrong with either the dacmagic or pico.

Godmachine said:

Getting back to my original post , I listen to basicly lossless FLAC , WAV and some DVD-Audio. I'm not sure I'm ready to drop 1k on a tube amp and haven't really experience enough content with a tube amp to judge one way or another.

From what I've heard the headphone.com Amp/DAC's seem to have a better more natual sound as opposed to the Forte , also the lesser interference is suppose to produce a clear more well defined sound outside of the EMF jungle of a PC.

I like what I'm hearing now but I from what I've heard sinking a good amount of money into a proper amp/dac for the 650's can make them really shine for lossless material. I also play alot of blu-rays on my PC so thats even more higher quality audio I listen to. I also have a ton of low quality MP3/ACCs that I listen to as well so I really am covering a wide range of usage.

So after providing that infomation , would I be better off with a external Amp/DAC? Or would I really need to be a audiophile to notice a difference?

Click to expand...

Start small. It is a journey into any realm be it computers, or audio. Enjoy what you can. As I said before I don't see an external DAC helping you at this time. Sounds as if you are running everything off of the computer. Until you are ready to turn the computer into a source, which doing right means getting a pure digital stream out of the computer via Spdif or coax, of which I have no idea if the Forte can do such, I say use the dac in the Forte.


My suggestion is that any amp will provide the most bang for your buck in terms of an upgrade.

bdr529 said:

Also, impedance does not make a headphone hard to drive. Some headphones work better with more power though. Tube amps happen to be naturally high impedance which make for closer match to the 300ohm senns. If you want more information about why impedance matching is useful look up maximum power transfer.

Click to expand...

Actually what you refer to in max power transfer APPLIES to power transmission design for efficiency. It does not really apply in the audio world. In fact for an audio amp you want as low an output impedance as possible, lookup damping factor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor

Tube amps having a highish output impedance is actually a negative for them, however the Senns work well with them because the SENNS have a high impedance not because the amp does. Tube amps work better with high Z cans than they do with low Z is a very true statement, however you can not deduce from that that solid state amps do not work just as well with high Z cans.

CJRP said:

I'm thinking of buying some 650s as well, and on head-fi people are recommending a tube amp to drive these really well.

Anyone have some opinions on the Little Dot MK 4 SE or whatever version it is? I am looking for the same info as the OP. External DAC + tube amp, is that a good combo? Not sure which ones to pick...

Click to expand...

I received my LD MK IV (non se version) a few days ago and paired with my K701's, I'm super happy with the sound quality. I haven't been listening to my k701's, mainly because of how overly bright they are. My ears just can't take it. BUT, after burning in the MK IV for a day, this is the best sound I've heard yet to come from a set of cans.

I'm not sure what the sound signature is of the 650's, but keep in mind that the MK IV is VERY musical and has a lot of color, and will definitely warm the sound and should tame headphones that are bright. Also, bass is much more accurate and controlled... I'm really happy with the MK IV

I'm not using a DAC with my MK IV, just the line out from my Macbook. Was considering getting a DAC for it, but at this point, I'm very pleased with the overall sound. The K701's require LOW impendence, and the MK IV delivers the goods to drive them perfectly IMO (has 3 gain levels up to +10)

good luck with the searching!

m1abram said:

Actually what you refer to in max power transfer APPLIES to power transmission design for efficiency. It does not really apply in the audio world. In fact for an audio amp you want as low an output impedance as possible, lookup damping factor. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_factor

Tube amps having a highish output impedance is actually a negative for them, however the Senns work well with them because the SENNS have a high impedance not because the amp does. Tube amps work better with high Z cans than they do with low Z is a very true statement, however you can not deduce from that that solid state amps do not work just as well with high Z cans.

Click to expand...

This is more true for loud speakers i think, there are some different opinions on what it means for headphones as they are a little different.

--Is an amplifier's damping factor important to headphone performance?
http://gilmore2.chem.northwestern.edu/faqs.htm#amp
Its a little bit down the page.

And thats what I meant when i said people like to choose tubes for Senns. I didn't mean to imply solid state was bad.

I don't have much real knowledge about this stuff aside from the little I read online about headphone amps though.

mangamonster said:

I received my LD MK IV (non se version) a few days ago and paired with my K701's, I'm super happy with the sound quality. I haven't been listening to my k701's, mainly because of how overly bright they are. My ears just can't take it. BUT, after burning in the MK IV for a day, this is the best sound I've heard yet to come from a set of cans.

I'm not sure what the sound signature is of the 650's, but keep in mind that the MK IV is VERY musical and has a lot of color, and will definitely warm the sound and should tame headphones that are bright. Also, bass is much more accurate and controlled... I'm really happy with the MK IV

I'm not using a DAC with my MK IV, just the line out from my Macbook. Was considering getting a DAC for it, but at this point, I'm very pleased with the overall sound. The K701's require high impendence, and the MK IV delivers the goods to drive them perfectly IMO (has 3 gain levels up to +10)

good luck with the searching!

Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, much appreciated.

- Yes the Forte can produce the "bit perfect" signal that most audiophiles whine about (as inaudible as the differences may be), as can the vast majority of properly designed computer audio interfaces (the only exception here is basically onboard from the land before time that doesn't have anything approaching an accurate clocking signal, and the first generation (And only the first generation) Audigy boards when running any effects/enhancements (like EAX, EQ, CMSS, etc)), although it will very likely require running the card in "Audio Creation Mode", as Creative/Auzen apparently did not see fit to include 44.1/88.2/etc as available options in "Entertainment Mode" (however there is no documentation to support that SRC is actually happening in this scenario, there is also no documentation to support the contrary, while there is documentation supporting that AC Mode will drive a bit-matched and properly clocked output based on the user's selected samplerate)

- The K701 are *not* a high-impedance load, and as such are *not* electromechanically suited to a high output impedance amplifier, at 62 ohms they're relatively low impedance, and would generally perform better with a lower Z amplifier (although the improvement in performance is very likely to be minimal)

- Everything that was said in the explanation of tubes and high Z is basically what I was driving at (yet apparently it was more pertinent to argue with me), a solidstate device can have a high Z output as well (there are solid state devices which easily have 300-600 ohm outputs as well, yes this is very likely achieved with some form of transformer (but different circuit designs *are* capable of achieving the same ultimate goal (its all about that magical black box ))

- Damping factor is an important consideration, however I do recall reading something that stated if an amplifier can post a damping factor of something like ~80, its basically all the same beyond there (although I couldn't lay hands on the article even if you paid me, and forget what their reasoning was for that assumption, basically theres sone contention, but nobody is saying having a high damping factor is bad, so go for it)

- Headphones are speakers, and all the same rules *do* apply, based on the notion of damping factor, this is where impedance matching comes into play, among other things (efficiency for one), the provided link seems to view consumer-oriented magazines as credible scientific sources, without more substantial information, I remain skeptical of its credibility (it makes a few other dubious claims, which further add to this skepticism)

- m1abram thank you for providing some legitimate information to an otherwise speculatory thread

Godmachine said:

I like what I'm hearing now but I from what I've heard sinking a good amount of money into a proper amp/dac for the 650's can make them really shine for lossless material.

...

So after providing that infomation , would I be better off with a external Amp/DAC? Or would I really need to be a audiophile to notice a difference?

Click to expand...

If in doubt, try to pick up some used gear off of the Head-Fi forums and decide for yourself. Most of those guys baby their equipment and you can usually make most of your money back if you decide to re-sell. That's what I did with numerous amps and headphones back in 2004, and I got to try a lot of new toys. I also found out that, while I was able to easily pick up on the various sound signatures of different headphones, I never felt there was a night and day difference when it came to amplifiers...especially between different solid state amps. But as always, you need to decide for yourself because audio is extremely subjective. I can tell you all day long that recabling your HD-650s will make a tremendous difference in the soundstage and bring out more detail, but you may not be able to hear or appreciate any difference at all.

obobski said:

- The K701 are *not* a high-impedance load, and as such are *not* electromechanically suited to a high output impedance amplifier

Click to expand...

That's correct. Typo on my part. I meant low impedance...also, the MK IV puts out more than enough high current power to the k701's low impedance requirements...more than enough for my ears

obobski said:

- Headphones are speakers, and all the same rules *do* apply, based on the notion of damping factor, this is where impedance matching comes into play, among other things (efficiency for one), the provided link seems to view consumer-oriented magazines as credible scientific sources, without more substantial information, I remain skeptical of its credibility (it makes a few other dubious claims, which further add to this skepticism)

Click to expand...

last time i checked the Loudspeaker and Headphone Handbook wasn't a consumer driven magazine.

mangamonster said:

That's correct. Typo on my part. I meant low impedance...also, the MK IV puts out more than enough high current power to the k701's low impedance requirements...more than enough for my ears

Click to expand...

didn't say it wouldn't work, just said they aren't impedance matched, and your positive experience with a non-matched setup should serve as enough of a subjective example (for those who just can't make a decision with "user reviews" (facts be damned)) that impedance matching doesn't mean a whole lot, yes you run the amplifier in a more efficient state, you get more power available at the tap, and the damping factor is going to be better, but the bottom line is very little difference

bdr529 said:

last time i checked the Loudspeaker and Headphone Handbook wasn't a consumer driven magazine.

Click to expand...

the majority of the link you posted referenced stuff from Stereophile and similar publications, and provided no credible sources for its claims (For example it claims that damping factor is "dismissed", yet provides no citation for this claim, other than "members of the audio world" (which could mean anything))

it wasn't all bad information, and I didn't say don't listen to it/read it, I said that I question its objectivity and validity based on the lack of credible sources cited (which is how you write a proper research document), this was not intended as a personal attack, merely an objection to a seemingly dubious source, basically I'd rather see the information from an objective party

mangamonster said:

agreed

obobski loves to over-police the audio forums with his self-righteous comments. Half of it is factual, the other half is not-open-for-debate nonsense. Either way, I can imagine how it drives many of us mad...

Click to expand...

where have I stated nonsense or been self-righteous?

furthermore, if you could please stop with the constant ad hominem abuse purely because you disagree or don't understand, that'd be much appreciated, thank you

Uhg, so after reading on Head-Fi for most of the day today, I am even more confused.

Do I want balanced or not with the Sennheiser 650s? Tube or solid state? How much of a difference is there between a $1000 stello amp and a $400 Little dot amp? Do I want to recable the 650s? Holy crap. No one has solid answers either, it's not like computer parts where you have an nvidia card and an ati card and there are factual benchmarks. What a pain in the ass, I almost don't even want to buy any of this stuff now.

I wish there was a post (there probably is) somewhere that states some nice combos.

For instance, if you want warm, creamy, rich sound then use this dac, this amp, this headphone, this cable.

If you want detail, bass, etc then use this setup..

Hmmm, more studying to do...

CJRP said:

Uhg, so after reading on Head-Fi for most of the day today, I am even more confused.

Do I want balanced or not with the Sennheiser 650s? Tube or solid state? How much of a difference is there between a $1000 stello amp and a $400 Little dot amp? Do I want to recable the 650s? Holy crap. No one has solid answers either, it's not like computer parts where you have an nvidia card and an ati card and there are factual benchmarks. What a pain in the ass, I almost don't even want to buy any of this stuff now.

I wish there was a post (there probably is) somewhere that states some nice combos.

For instance, if you want warm, creamy, rich sound then use this dac, this amp, this headphone, this cable.

If you want detail, bass, etc then use this setup..

Hmmm, more studying to do...

Click to expand...

Welcome to Audiorphilia. Fact is that everyone has different ears. It would be the same in the computer realm if say 95% of the population had varying degrees of color-blindness.

Balanced would require a re-cable. A specific amp and is usually a really high step, think i7 quad sli ssd computer.

The difference between the $400 and $1000 again not much. Akin to Q6600 to i7. You would need more than a 650 to tell the difference anyways IMO.

I wouldn't jump into recabling your headphones until you have more experience. Did you overclock your first computer?

Tube or solid state is the biggest question AFTER you decide you want an amp at all. And that decision is more like ATI or Nvidia. Both are very close to each other you really in the end like one or the other.

Hehe, I know how you feel. The abundant amount of options out there can become tiring to no end. Endless forum pages and threads start to become confusing. It's even harder when people tell you to audition the equipment first and listen first before you buy...but nobody around my area carries the specialized headphone components that I'm interested in...of course you can always participate in a local hifi meet to try other people's equipment, but those events don't happen every week. Usually it's an annual event.

For me, I had to just bite the bullet and take a chance. I'm REALLY happy with my setup, but I'm sure there are other components that sound better

I have both an SS amp and a tube amp. The SQ from both are very different. My brother has a Darkvoice (I like it a lot, and will probably buy one later down the road).

I have a Music Fidelity V-DAC...it's AMAZING!!

I can tell you that from my ears the following (this is completely of my own opinion, so I expect to not be corrected with some sort of factual mumbo jumbo garbage,hahah...)

-my DAC (Music Fidelity V-DAC) has completely changed the way I listen to music. I was skeptical about buying into something that is a bit costly with only minimal to no gains. I trusted the reviews and bought it. I have NEVER heard any other audio setup reproduce music as real and with such amazing soundstage...ever. I'm glad I didn't trust my skepticism on this purchase. I now listen to music every day...something that I haven't done since I was a teenager. I consider a good DAC to be the backbone and most important purchase of any setup if you want to reproduce a life-like sound quality. Again, this is my opinion...I can hear the difference. It's night and day for me. I had to do a burn-in for at least 40 hrs before I heard a real difference...burn-in is a must IMO

-I listen to my tube amp (Little Dot MK IV) and solid state amp for different types of music. In my opinion, a tube amp is amazing for instrumental music. I hear a lot of warmth through tubes. It's even better for vocals. Michael Buble sounds ridiculously awesome on the MK IV. My Eric Clapton unplugged album makes me tingle every time I hear Layla now. Stringed instruments shine!

-My SS amp (Heed Audio CanAmp) is my choice for listening to electronic, rock, hip hop and ambient. It hit's hard, is crystal clear and produces a much more up front, in your face sound stage. High's are much brighter. Bass is tight and controlled and when listening to synthesized music, it feels exhilarating to have a nice fat juicy bass hit you with such amazing accuracy.

Personally, I listen to both amps equally. Just depends on my mood. Also, I use my AKG K701's with my tube amp and my Denon AH-D2000's with my SS amp.

I hope this helps you. I have to go...work calls.

I really appreciate the information. I listen to a lot of ambient (Explosions in the Sky, Mogwai, Do Make Say Think, etc), indie, post-rock, rock, etc. Very occasionally some techno like Royksopp or something. I'm thinking a tube would give me that nice warm sound, but then again, what exactly does that mean?

I don't own the 650s yet, I'm using Grado 325is into my receiver. How will the 650 and tube amp sound compare? Hmm

Not to hi-jack the thread, but do you guys know any good combos? I want to get an amp and a dac, and get by spending only $1000 or less.

I'd have to say I disagree on a few points (including the notion that a limited percentage of the population is somehow superior to all the rest in their ability to perceive "audiophile" gear, part of it is training (you can train your senses to be more receptive/tuned into certain things), and part of it is in their heads), also love to hear that facts are apparently "mumbo jumbo" and "garbage" (and nowhere do I intend to tell someone that their opinion/feeling is wrong, simply to provide facts for users to make educated decisions)

there is no basis for cables making a change to the sound of equipment (this is factual, basically what I mean here is that if you have headphone XYZ and buy some $1500 custom ultra mega cryo cooled all silver cable, it isn't going to somehow change the properties of the headphone drivers or enclosure, resistance cannot go lower than 0, and shielding either works or it doesn't), however there is an arguable basis for balanced drive (it does have benefits, from an electrical perspective), but getting an amplifier that can handle it is somewhat expensive unless you DIY, and the sonic improvements are arguable (just like impedance matching, from the equipment's side its great, but to your ears, it might not even be a thing), and on the HD 650's a recable is really as simple as unplugging the stock cable, and plugging in your new cable, takes about 30 seconds, a child can do it, but keep the amp price in mind (the cable is around $50, but an amp can run you upwards of $1k)

kyd is right, $400 vs $1000 isn't a big jump with consumer audio, sadly (diminishing returns indeed)

as far as the whole "DAC DAC DAC DAC" external D/A hysteria, there is no advantage to an external device, unless its adding some form of distortion that you find pleasing, the abilities of an internal solution like X-Fi Forte (or better yet, something like an Onkyo SE-200 or X-Meridian or X-Fi Prelude) are comparable or better than most external solutions under a grand (and when you consider that even a $60,000 setup is only about 2% better....), and the myths about RFI/EMI are mostly bunk or rooted in decades old perceptions (and misconceptions) of computers

tubes vs SS is all preference, tubes will add distortion to the signal which many users find pleasing (mangamonster seems to exemplify this), SS (if properly designed) will basically give you 20-20k flat as a board, but you can add distortion with other components (like exciters, tube buffers, EQs, etc) if you like, basically do you like the tube distortion or not, your call

honestly I'd just get the HD 650's by themselves, your receiver will handle them just fine (bet you a dollar its between 150 and 300 ohms on the output, just like the high Z amps being mentioned in this thread, meaning basically the sole difference is distortion), if you want to add an amplifier or some other device, you always can at a later date (I can't stress enough the concepts of frugality and metered purchases with audio, most new users will ignore this advice and just dive in balls deep with a $2500 system right out of the gate instead of "stepping it up" over a month or two, you'd be surprised how good components can actually sound when you stop worrying about if they're "audiophile" or not)

burn-in is debatable, I'd rather not, but I will say this:
the best single argument I've heard is to question whats really burning in, the equipment (for which no electromechanical data exists to substantiate the claim), or your own perception of the equipment? basically theres nothing to stop you from using the equipment, so even if by some absurd chance its a real phemenon, its gonna happen regardless of what you do (you'll also become used to your equipment regardless of what you do, so theres no sense arguing it, bottom line is just don't have your headphones sitting on the desk blasting sine sweeps for a month before you even touch them, its just a waste of their time)

also, Royksopp is *not* techno

Great info, thanks! So I asked this in another thread, but what is the difference between the tube sound and the solid state sound? What does the distortion of a tube sound like? I hear it makes things "warmer." What exactly does this mean? Does it mean softer highs? More rounded out sound, not sharp or shrill? Or does it mean it resonates a certain way? I'm basically trying to decide if I like the tube sound without ever listening to a tube......yeah, not a great way to learn it, but I'm trying.

Tubes warmer, yes. This can mean more rounded bass, less shrill highs, and for some, a more enjoyable easy to listen to sound. Some solid state amps have a reputation for being too clean or sterile sounding, with more transparency presenting the music "as is" but perhaps with a more clinical aspect. There are no absolutes though, as some op-amps and circuit designs are used to bring more warmth to solid state amps. Again, this is entirely personal preference. I've never owned tube amps even though I'd LOVE to try one but was always kind of turned off by their need to warm up and the fact that sound quality diminishes with tube life and I didn't want to worry about having to replace them. But although I enjoyed every solid state amp I had, there was a nagging feeling that I'd really enjoy the tube sound and a lot of people run (and prefer) them.

imyourzero said:

Tubes warmer, yes. This can mean more rounded bass, less shrill highs, and for some, a more enjoyable easy to listen to sound. Some solid state amps have a reputation for being too clean or sterile sounding, with more transparency presenting the music "as is" but perhaps with a more clinical aspect. There are no absolutes though, as some op-amps and circuit designs are used to bring more warmth to solid state amps. Again, this is entirely personal preference. I've never owned tube amps even though I'd LOVE to try one but was always kind of turned off by their need to warm up and the fact that sound quality diminishes with tube life and I didn't want to worry about having to replace them. But although I enjoyed every solid state amp I had, there was a nagging feeling that I'd really enjoy the tube sound and a lot of people run (and prefer) them.

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I'd agree with your explanation of tubes' sound

my experience with tubes is limited to McIntosh gear (both preamps and power amps), if you bothered me into giving an experiential/subjective opinion, in a word: sloppy

you can get the same high end/low end rolloff/distortion characteristics with solid state designs (I'm not saying its easy, its possible), but honestly I'd rather see 20-20k +/- 0 dB (or as close as you can get me)

really its hard to describe the difference without hearing it (yes, this is probably one of the few subjective things I'll agree on), basically because while the sound can be understood from a graph, whether or not you actually like that sound is another story

check a local hi-fi shop, they should have a tube based preamp or poweramp that'll drive into heapdhones or speakers for you

obobski said:

as far as the whole "DAC DAC DAC DAC" external D/A hysteria, there is no advantage to an external device, unless its adding some form of distortion that you find pleasing, the abilities of an internal solution like X-Fi Forte (or better yet, something like an Onkyo SE-200 or X-Meridian or X-Fi Prelude) are comparable or better than most external solutions under a grand (and when you consider that even a $60,000 setup is only about 2% better....), and the myths about RFI/EMI are mostly bunk or rooted in decades old perceptions (and misconceptions) of computers

Click to expand...

This statement is simple not true. There is a very real difference in DACs. Higher end DAC chips perform much better filtering, provide much higher signal to noise which with some is a big difference.

Example I built 2 external DACs one using the Wolfson WM8501 and another using the WM8741 chip. The one using the WM8741 also including an ASRC. While the lower cost one using the WM8501 is still a better DAC than what is found in most gear the improvement I found in the second DAC using the WM8741 was rather noticeable. Much more than I even expected.

Now I am not saying that RFI claims are true or not, I am saying that getting a DAC that is good enough and there is no noticeable difference in higher end DACs is pretty far from the truth. Every DAC does the conversion and filtering differently and even then you have a buffer stage after the DAC that is purely in the analog domain.

m1abram said:

This statement is simple not true. There is a very real difference in DACs. Higher end DAC chips perform much better filtering, provide much higher signal to noise which with some is a big difference.

Example I built 2 external DACs one using the Wolfson WM8501 and another using the WM8741 chip. The one using the WM8741 also including an ASRC. While the lower cost one using the WM8501 is still a better DAC than what is found in most gear the improvement I found in the second DAC using the WM8741 was rather noticeable. Much more than I even expected.

Now I am not saying that RFI claims are true or not, I am saying that getting a DAC that is good enough and there is no noticeable difference in higher end DACs is pretty far from the truth. Every DAC does the conversion and filtering differently and even then you have a buffer stage after the DAC that is purely in the analog domain.

Click to expand...

yeah, point I was making is, the D/A hardware found on discrete soundcards is going to be comparable or better than an external solution or a receiver until you get into the four figure range, and the only real benefit an external solution will have at that range is the analog output side, not the actual D/A processing

and the $60k+ setups from MBL, dCs, etc are going to be barely better in terms of accuracy, yes, they are "better", but we're not talking about a whole lot of improvement for a MASSIVE increase in price (So you go from 119 dB S/N to 121 dB S/N for $59,840 more, and IMD probably drops 10%, yeah, thats entirely worth the dosh), because at that range you aren't buying some special sauce $50 per IC D/A, you're buying a whole row of Cirrus or TI or AKM IC's running together to supposedly create a more linear approximation of the analog signal, you're basically spending a fortune for not very much improvement

yeah, if you wanna talk about the absolute cheapest D/A chips availible like CODECs from VIA or Realtek that'll post up 90 dB S/N compared to some higher end chips, sure, theres an arguement for that, but once you get into the high end discrete audiocard market there isn't a thing that some "audiophile" component can do to really set itself apart aside from adding distortion that "feels pleasing" to the end user

since I'm sure the above will lead to an argument, how about some numbers:

two very high end D/A converters, the Accuphase DC801(~$11,000) and McIntosh MDA1000 (~$8000), spec wise

Accuphase DC801:
THD: 0.0006%
S/N Ratio: 117 dB
Dynamic Range: 117 dB
Channel Separation: 113 dB

McIntosh MDA1000:
THD: 0.002% (@ 1khz (really sad to see such goosed measurements at this price range))
S/N Ratio: "better than" 110 dB
Dynamic Range: 100 dB (@ 1khz)


one studio controller, the PreSonus Central Station (~$500)

PreSonus Central Station
THD: 0.002% (@ 1khz)
Dynamic Range: 117 dB
S/N Ratio: "better than" 140 dB (analog side)

two internal soundcards, the Auzen X-Fi Prelude and Asus Xonar HDAV 1.3 Deluxe

X-Fi Prelude
THD: 0.001%
S/N Ratio: 120 dB
Dyn Range: not stated (although I'd say 120 dB based on how those #'s are derived)

HDAV 1.3
THD: 0.0004%
S/N Ratio: "up to" 120 dB
Dyn Range: 145 dB

my point is, yes, theres variations between D/A ICs, looking at Cirrus' catalog, their "entry level" part has a THD of -88 dB and S/N of 96 dB, their flagship part has a THD of -107 dB and an S/N of 120 dB

so how much does this flagship product cost? surely it must be a multi-thousand dollar component...

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cirrus-Logic/CS4398-CZZ/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuYaq4aOfOV%2bImeH4aTJ7wS

your average manufacturer will spend less than $7 on these

and the cheap solution?
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Cirrus-Logic/CS4334-KSZ/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMuYaq4aOfOV%2bEKJHa4rKIoX


neither is over the top in terms of pricing to put into a ~$200 component

since [H] has some fantasy obsession with BurrBrown (apparently they only make one product, and apparently its the "definitive" D/A) we can look at those too, looking at their highest end solution, the PCM1792A which does provide somewhat higher specs than Cirrus' flagship
looking at an S/N of 127 dB in stereo, and somewhat higher at 132 dB with special hardware design considerations

pricing for this "be all end all" part?
roughly $14 for mass production
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...GAEpiMZZMv%2bLKsN4bqzyuqvH1DbcEBuqzrXZndjiAQ=

in other words, even having a PCM1792 on your discrete audio board isn't beyond the realm of possibility, and Asus went ahead and put the 1796's on the HDAV Deluxe (its the model down)

my point was, is, and will continue to be:
there is no justification for a high priced external D/A as the specs and performance do not justify the price contrasted to either discrete audio cards or studio/pro equipment

the DACs suggested in this thread include the Musical Fidelity V-DAC (one of their lowest end offerings), which lists for around $300

specs:
THD: 0.004%
S/N Ratio: 116 dB
Channel Separation: 104 dB


now I bring this up to make a few points:

firstly, if you want to argue pure numbers, the discrete audio cards and studio gear are going to post the highest numbers

secondly, the V-DAC, HDAV Deluxe, DCP801, and Central Station are all right on top of one another in terms of measurements, and we're talking about a price range of products between ~$260 and $11,000, is the additional $10,700 really justified unless you need the multi input/output abilities? (which the CS has)

the real kick in the teeth is that Musical Fidelity claims the "State of the art digital components" in the V-DAC are "very expensive" (yet we know this isn't true, CS4398 based D/A solution can be built for under $100, probably under $50 if you don't care about the enclosure)

this isn't to say the V-DAC is garbage, in reality it does fulfill Musical Fidelity's claim that its world-class, but that isn't saying a whole lot when you consider that a $160 discrete PCI card can meet or exceed its specifications across the board, and even at $10,000+ we're not seeing some "shattering" increase in specs (its not like we're seeing 150 dB S/N components with THD ratios in the 0.0003% range, although to throw out yet another speclist, one of the best discrete audiocards ever conceived can actually hit that THD level with a full 120 dB S/N ratio and 120 dB channel separation)

now to really put a wrench in the works:
none of this actually matters.

and here's why:
with digital audio, you're dealing with bit depth (much like color depth), working in 16-bit space, the Nyquist limit for dynamic range is around 96 dB (which means anything "over" 96 dB is just wasted, its like having a 24-bit monitor and playing in 16-bit color, so what if theres extra capabilities), now you might think: ok, thats reasonable, but we've got 24-bit audio with the advent of DVD and newer HD formats, so that extra precision surely has to benefit us there, right?

well, based on the same mathematics, instead of that 96 dB of dynamic range at 16-bits, we're looking at a whopping 144 dB of dynamic range for 24-bit audio, which no device on the planet is capable of attaining, currently we've got devices that are capable of around 120 dB, and this has been the case for about 10 years (really wish I had the link that explains the switching limitations of IC tech and whats creating this wall), suffice to say, if the D/A can acurately provide that ~96 dB of dynamic range with very low IMD/THD, it will accurately reproduce 16-bit audio (which is the VAST majority of digital audio), while 24-bit audio can be processed and decoded, the full potential isn't able to be realized (basically we're looking at 24-bit color on an 18-bit panel) due to hardware limitations and (in theory) limitations of our own bodies (our hearing is thought to have a functional/average dynamic range of around 100 dB (which is VERY impressive) and a maximum of around 140 dB, still below the 144 dB of 24-bit audio (but higher doesn't mean its imperceptable, its debatable (just like the merits of a 30-bit monitor, is there really a difference, or is it just a nice "extra"))

all of this again relates to my original point, that there is no functional justification for an external D/A over an internal, discrete audio card, in a PC, based on the following points:

- the measured response of said external device will be identical to, or lesser than, a quality internal device

- there is no real improvement in terms of higher S/N clarity between various high end components, due to limitations of modern technology

- there is generally no realistic justification for higher resolution components, based on limitations of modern technology and human perception

- the extra price of an external solution is hard to justify when you consider how much of an increase we're talking about, relative to the "improved" performance of said device

- the only realistic justification of such a device is in the case of the device adding a pleasing (to the user, from a subjective POV) distortion to the signal, which by itself may be a strong selling point depending on the user

I believe the Little Dot tube amplifiers are all single-ended push pull designs which generally means they'll have much lower output impedance (and therefore much better driver control and damping factor) than most tube amplifiers.