Now look who's spreading FUD. HP always offer 100+ mb software package and a couple megs driver-only download for just about every printer in existence.
You don't HAVE to get the 100mb version for Windows.
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5 Ways Linux Shoots Itself in the Foot
- Thread starter HardOCP News
- Start date
Now look who's spreading FUD. HP always offer 100+ mb software package and a couple megs driver-only download for just about every printer in existence.
You don't HAVE to get the 100mb version for Windows.
heatlesssun
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Good stories now multiply that by a billion and then lets see what happens. Anyone that claims that stuffing popular or newer hardware into a Linux system is OVERALL easier than a Windows system, ESPECIALLY Windows 7, isn't being very honest about it. Eventually you're GOING to a nasty snag with Linux simply because you'll find something that isn't supported.
This isn't to say that Linux support is horrible or anything but all it takes is a little common sense to realize that an OS with 90 times more users on the desktop is just going to get better support for hardware overall.
heatlesssun
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Yeah but see you're TOTALLY dissing things like iTunes and other DRM stuff which is VERY important to a lot of people. And guess what, Windows isn't stuck in 1999.
Out of the box, Windows 7 is going to support anything common out of the and the uncommon stuff is a download away. Linux CAN'T be easier than that. So even if Linux is just as good, I don't see how its better.
thats what I mean and I am just demonstrating it isn't as rosy in windowsville as ppl try to state.
All have issues as I have stated. recent machine with recent hardware should be fairly straightforward to get working in any OS
start chucking in specialist stuff or obscure stuff and well...
And where did I mention the size of the linux driver, where did I mention the time it took to install in XP, where did I mention that the driver size was the issue.
Stop being an antagonist and read
The issue was setting up the printer in Vista
Then why would you mention the driver size in your complaint about Windows versus Linux in the first place? It seems to imply right there that the size is one of your complaint.
Again, I use Linux too. I know what it entails. But you are probably the most anti-Windows person I've ever had the pleasure of meeting on the forum.
We know Windows isn't always perfect when it comes to installing hardware drivers, but Jesus Christ, you can't compare it with Linux's imperfection. I know because I use them both!
Linux is great once you get everything working though.
heatlesssun
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And Windows fan boys are the irrational ones?
Not saying that you're a Windows fan boy, I am and I tend to agree with this statement.It's just that anyone telling me that Linux is EASIER to install and get up and running on all and any hardware than Windows isn't being honest.
I use Ubunutu from time to time. Haven't touched it much recently as I've been spending all my time with 7 and making sure than everything is solid. With exception of a couple of more esoteric things like the multi-touch driver for my tx2z which STILL isn't out in production form, Windows 7 has been a breeze to setup hardware on. And that was with a lot of Vista drivers.
I think that a lot of Linux people think that Windows just stands still, the same accusation that they make Windows fan boys about Linux. Neither one is standing still for goodness sake.
If you think that Windows 7 isn't a BIG improvement over its predecessors in ease of hardware I have a bridge to sell you.
Modred189
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You miss the point. It's not that there is a workable fix, but that the process for finding that out on a windows machine is much easier.
You call the manufacturer. Call dell, they tell you there are no such drivers. Problem solved.
With linux you have to deal with the COMMUNITY. Sure you will get an answer eventually, but the point is that you have to deal with the d-bags found in any community, where with windows you don't.
You call the manufacturer. Call dell, they tell you there are no such drivers. Problem solved.
With linux you have to deal with the COMMUNITY. Sure you will get an answer eventually, but the point is that you have to deal with the d-bags found in any community, where with windows you don't.
heatlesssun
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This is the Linux Achilles heel that has NO TECHNICAL solution. Support.
/dev/null
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You don't buy suport for a kernel, you buy it for a distro.
There are many companies that offer support. I know canonical (ubuntu) and red hat offer support.
And yet where I work has direct access to Novell for their Suse Desktop machines...
mmm
If you are someone that need support you get a package that comes with support.
Back when I started really getting into linux around 2000 you could buy the powerpack edition of Mandrake that came with a manual, comprehensive CD collection AND 60days worth of phone support
Lo and hehold Mandriva still do the PowerPack support
http://www2.mandriva.com/linux/powerpack/
Want more support, you pay for it.
If you don't pay anything for your distro then you don't get priority support.
What if the year warranty on your Dell expires who do you goto for support?
See it is these kinda FUD statements that causes such big flame topics
Show some critical thinking before you post Bullshit like you just did...
It's better because uncommon stuff is also 'just a download away', but the OS actually helps you discover and install what you need instead of giving a useless error message and leaving you on your own.
InCogneato
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Crappy list of reasons IMO. His list seems to be more with social aspects, I'd say the issues lay on the technical side of things.
Modred189
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Wrong.
I installed Win7 pro on a crappy 4 year old laptop my wife has after attempting Ubuntu (easier for her I assumed). After several hours on the ubuntu forums and downloading apps, etc, wireless never worked. And I was getting the feeling it never would.
On Windows 7, the basic driver was a little wonky, but it worked (if intermittently). I went to the gateway website, downloaded the vista driver, and it works fine, and continues to a month later.
The best part? I never hit a browser button. Windows update linked me to the gateway support page.
heatlesssun
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So does Windows 7. Like I said, its MUCH better at previous versions of Windows at driver discovery. Windows 7 has done a very good job of finding drivers for some older laptops I've tried it on. As far as codecs, my software stack has players for everything I use so I've not even seen a problem with a codec on my personal rigs.
And once again, anyone who compares the level of support overall between Windows and Linux, all and all distros, and saying that they are equivalent is simply lying. It's not EVEN close. And why would it be with 1/90th the user base.
Who's talking about drivers? This thread of discussion is about media codecs. Finding drivers is basically a non-issue on Linux, or should be if hardware vendors weren't such asses about it. Anyway I'd say the two are about on par in this respect, both work well at finding drivers for hardware not supported out of the box, assuming such support exists.
We're talking about the out of the box experience here. What software you install is irrelevant, we're talking about what ships with the OS and how it handles dealing with unsupported files. Try to play an unsupported file in Vista and you're met with an unhelpful error message and left on your own. And this is a pretty common question I get asked by my users 'the files from my digital camera won't play' or 'how do I get this movie my friend sent me to play?' sort of things.
I *think* Windows 7 finally handles this in a graceful manner by helping the user find the codec they need, which was the point behind my tongue-in-cheek remark about Windows finally catching up. 7 just came out; this feature appeared in Ubuntu 7, 3 years ago.
quoted for truth
to be fair though your far more likely to have a simple out of the box experience overall with windows simply do to the support for it. Linux is still going to be harder for laymen to setup and use. That is the simple truth here. But lets not forget our history. Windows 3.1, Windows ME, Windows 2000, Vista, NONE of these was exactly "simple". Vista was a disaster initially, it took quite a will to work out those bugs (hell I STILL use a 3rd party copying utility) Still this reminds me a lot of the Nvidia vs ATI drivers, plenty of venom on both sides. And Linux does a LOT of things right, much better then windows. still I can't recommend Linux to anyone but a tech savvy user, having to resort to the command prompt when there is an issue just kills the user friendly factor.
quoted for truth
Still this reminds me a lot of the Nvidia vs ATI drivers, plenty of venom on both sides. And Linux does a LOT of things right, much better then windows. still I can't recommend Linux to anyone but a tech savvy user, having to resort to the command prompt when there is an issue just kills the user friendly factor.
Oh I agree, running into this kind of thing on windows wasn't an issue before Vista came out (XP being around for 5years with a nice stable kernel model and library model is very good for developers)
But to rag on linux for something that can (and does) occur on windows is just rubbish.
quoted for truth
I disagree. Most users don't even know it's easy to install a new OS in the first place and get their computer ready to run. Most users don't know about drivers; namely how to identify hardware and what to do once identified. Since Linux hardware support is built into the kernel and modern distros present you with a GUI for installing video card drivers, I find it takes less effort overall to go from install disc to usable machine with Linux. That's just my personal experience though. I have not watched any non-techies install either one, as when I ever mention to re-install Windows or to install another OS they usually respond with "you can do that? i don't care that much it must be hard." ... the only time I gave a layman friend of mine an Ubuntu machine he liked it but wanted iTunes.
well a lot of points can be argued here but here is one that just can't be. If you have an issue in Linux you almost always end up at the command prompt. now days that just kills it for the non-techies as you put it. like eeyrjmr said when it works it works great. but when it doesn't work, well, having to walk people through windows is bad, try walking them through something using the command prompt and you will see where I am coming form. Don't get me wrong, Linux is cool as hell but certain things just kill it as a viable desktop OS. really Linux really missed its chance to shine during the vista launch. It would not take that much to address some of the issues. (my wishful thinking?)
Modred189
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Well put.
Linux is amazing on the server side, but largely missed the boat on the home.
While it's more intimidating for the user, I think it's actually easier to walk people through CLI fix/troubleshooting than a GUI. This was already mentioned earlier in the thread; it's a lot easier for both parties to copy/paste a command into a terminal window than try to navigate through multiple GUI panes. For some users it's downright painful to navigate the GUI by description - 'I don't see button x. Are you sure, it should be near the bottom left of your screen. Nope, I still don't see it. 30-second pause... OHHH THERE IT IS' was a common occurrence when I was answering phones. Getting to a terminal with a simple keyboard shortcut and telling the user exactly what to type is clear, concise and quicker than trying to describe what they should do to a GUI.
However the GUI is more approachable and will frighten users less, even if they have no idea what they're doing in either situation. It's also more discoverable for intermediate users trying to solve problems on their own.
These hardware issues that people are reporting - hardware not working properly on first install - should definitely be fixed. I've installed Ubuntu on a fairly wide variety of hardware and never had this issue, so I think for most users it should work well right away, but obviously there are some kinks to work out yet.
when did shell, prompt etc... become CLI? That kinda threw me and I've being using various shells since dos. The GUI sits on top of the command interpreter, not as separate pieces.
Anyway the problem with Linux is often than anything outside of the simple tasks requires that you know the terminology, were as in windows many things come with more intuitive ways of figuring out what is wrong. Many times the help files which have a scroll bar are good enough to figure out what is wrong.
Also many times it is not the driver that is the problem but how several drivers are interacting that break in nix. Or features that were added break things. I still use an older workstation monitor (CRT). I can install any version of UNIX and most versions of nix up till about 2003 when they decided that to help users they would take the ability to set custom screen configs out of the GUI and leave only editing the text file as the way to fix problems when your monitor had problems with the defaults if it did not have a driver file. For most people with more up to date screens not a big deal but what happens when the technology changes what someone thinks the default behavior should be? It's funny windows does not have this problem. My nix versions don't now that I have a custom file I just added to my install image for Mandriva and Fedora, but a normal user trying to edit a file that requires you to know details most would have to steal out of a windows ini file, not going to happen.
Then again in windows you run into problems everyone once in while with older hardware, just not keyboards or monitors because they have to work.
The thing that bugged me was getting help for it, I logged into the help section and out of fifty some odd responses three were helpful one a PM told me how to fix it, two pointed out resources I could use, and the rest was a mix of people telling me to write my own driver, to suck it up, to stop using crappy hardware, a bunch of insulting posts that had no value, and one of two people feeling sorry for the rest of the responses. Oh and of course the mandatory use the search posters who if they had hit the search button they would have found that no results were returned except my post. lol This would have been before vista so it was a while ago but all in all there are too many trolls on the various nix forums. So I'm with some of the other posters that asking for help is often like clicking on spam you may have gotten what you wanted but god help you you got some much extra crap that you wish you had not asked in the first place.
Then again desktop Linux is not important, as Linux best use is as a workstation or server.
Anyway the problem with Linux is often than anything outside of the simple tasks requires that you know the terminology, were as in windows many things come with more intuitive ways of figuring out what is wrong. Many times the help files which have a scroll bar are good enough to figure out what is wrong.
Also many times it is not the driver that is the problem but how several drivers are interacting that break in nix. Or features that were added break things. I still use an older workstation monitor (CRT). I can install any version of UNIX and most versions of nix up till about 2003 when they decided that to help users they would take the ability to set custom screen configs out of the GUI and leave only editing the text file as the way to fix problems when your monitor had problems with the defaults if it did not have a driver file. For most people with more up to date screens not a big deal but what happens when the technology changes what someone thinks the default behavior should be? It's funny windows does not have this problem. My nix versions don't now that I have a custom file I just added to my install image for Mandriva and Fedora, but a normal user trying to edit a file that requires you to know details most would have to steal out of a windows ini file, not going to happen.
Then again in windows you run into problems everyone once in while with older hardware, just not keyboards or monitors because they have to work.
The thing that bugged me was getting help for it, I logged into the help section and out of fifty some odd responses three were helpful one a PM told me how to fix it, two pointed out resources I could use, and the rest was a mix of people telling me to write my own driver, to suck it up, to stop using crappy hardware, a bunch of insulting posts that had no value, and one of two people feeling sorry for the rest of the responses. Oh and of course the mandatory use the search posters who if they had hit the search button they would have found that no results were returned except my post. lol This would have been before vista so it was a while ago but all in all there are too many trolls on the various nix forums. So I'm with some of the other posters that asking for help is often like clicking on spam you may have gotten what you wanted but god help you you got some much extra crap that you wish you had not asked in the first place.
Then again desktop Linux is not important, as Linux best use is as a workstation or server.
but that IS most of the issue, most people could figure this stuff out but are either unwilling or as you said too intimidated. and just my experience its is harder to walk someone through, esp if they are the hunt and peck typer and you have to go back and check them. The more that is done for them, the easier a problem becomes.
Then if they are computers how are they not mainstream?
Yeah, that's why I mentioned discoverability, people might be able to sort more things out on their own by poking around in the GUI if these things were better integrated there, but having both the flexibility of the text-based and modular configuration and a GUI configuration tool is difficult to do. It's a valid complaint, and certainly something that a lot of work has gone into in the past few years, but there's still some way to go. Still, 'advanced' troubleshooting once the system is set up isn't really necessary more often than on any other OS in my experience. Users of any OS are eventually going to have to have an expert look at it for one reason or another.
And I guess it's arguable which is easier, but how many tech folks do you know that would rather walk a user through pulling up the Network Connection Details dialog (it's pretty buried) than opening a command prompt and typing ipconfig? I certainly don't know any. If the fix is relatively obvious and simple my take is that the command line is probably faster and easier in most cases, but it's easily arguable either way.
It's just me being overly generic
.I haven't dissed iTunes, but I will now. iTunes is a DRM infested trash heap. First of all it's database is unbelievably slow. Second if you have an extremely large collection like I do it does this weird thing of giving you varying counts on how many songs you have in your collection. Sometimes Radiohead is in there then the next day it isn't. My feelings of iTunes has nothing to do with Windows vs. Linux I just hate the application in general even on a Mac (it sucks on all platforms). Plus in terms of DRM all it does is prevent you from using a product you've spent your own money on. Why would I be in favor of that? (Sorry I have a visceral feeling against iTunes)
Anyone who is currently running Vista or earlier, Ubuntu is easier. For Windows 7 it's nice that they included codecs other than their own....what you thought I couldn't recognize an improvement? Windows 7 is an improvement. I like Linux but I'm not blind. Improvement is improvement.
lets not even go there, this thread is already 6 pages long and discussing all of the itunes shortcomings will easily triple that
He does have a point though, a lot of people like that DRM infested crap. its unfortunate but true. built in DRM is one of windows (including windows 7) biggest faults. that alone will away insure that some of us use Linux as a second OS, in this area Linux kicks windows ass and makes steve ballmer hold its jacket.
I'm glad I don't do tech support anymore but when I did getting someone to navigate through a gui is the most painful thing out there. It always went something like this....
Me: "Mam right-click on "My Computer"
Caller: "Where is it?"
Me:"It's on your desktop"
Caller:"Is that where all the icons are?"
Me:"Yes... now find My Computer"
Caller:"Ok I see it. "
Me:"Ok I want you to single right click and..."
Caller:"Ok I did it. I see all of my drives"
Me:"Ok I need you to close that window"
Caller:"OK. Now I'm back on my desktop."
Me:"Ok I want you to single right click and..."
Caller: "Ok I did it. I still see all of my drives"
Me: "Ok close that window. Lets try something else. I want you to find the "Windows" key and press "Pause/Break"
Caller: "Where is the Window's key?"
lets not even go there, this thread is already 6 pages long and discussing all of the itunes shortcomings will easily triple that
He does have a point though, a lot of people like that DRM infested crap. its unfortunate but true. built in DRM is one of windows (including windows 7) biggest faults. that alone will away insure that some of us use Linux as a second OS, in this area Linux kicks windows ass and makes steve ballmer hold its jacket.
Yeah sorry. I can always see a good thing about a product but iTunes just isn't one of them for me. Holding up iTunes as a reason to like Windows is like holding up a piece of poo and marveling at it because it smears easily.
heatlesssun
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lets not even go there, this thread is already 6 pages long and discussing all of the itunes shortcomings will easily triple that
He does have a point though, a lot of people like that DRM infested crap. its unfortunate but true. built in DRM is one of windows (including windows 7) biggest faults. that alone will away insure that some of us use Linux as a second OS, in this area Linux kicks windows ass and makes steve ballmer hold its jacket.
Yeah, but that DRM infested crap call be VERY slick. Like Zune Pass. Sure you can torrent all the content but the presentation, the management, the integration with Zunes of course and the discoverability simply don't exist in FOSS and probably never will.
Plus in Windows are the tools to defeat all of this stuff and move it to whatever platform you wish.
heatlesssun
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Who said anything about LIKING iTunes. I said that if you want to use these types of things, and looking at the number of iPods out there millions do, Linux ain't gonna cut for the average user.
The Zune client with Zune Pass however I LOVE. It's just too slick to rant too much about the DRM that's easily defeated anyway.
me: type "command X %% /p /p"
Caller: where is that key?
me: its shift+5
caller: it put a 5 in there
me: you have to hold down the shift key when you hit it.
caller: ok
caller: it says invalid parameter
me: did you type it correctly?
caller: (reads off what he typed)
me: you did use a forward slash right?
caller: huh?
me: did you use the slash key above the enter key or the one to the side of the shift key
caller: the one above the enter key.
me: (sigh) lets try this again.
The Zune integration really is very slick, and it's the kind of thing the 'industry' really needs to do to dig themselves out of the hole that they're in. Personally I think it's compelling enough without any DRM at all, but...
To counter your argument, this is entirely due to the fact that the hardware is closed. Remember that Android app that would scan CD barcodes and automatically queue up the torrent on your home PC? This is all possible with FOSS, and really not that difficult to do, the problem is that of closed hardware and companies that would be brought up on DMCA charges or something if they implemented it themselves. You can't even legally sell a DVD 'jukebox' in the US ffs. These legal issues just need to go the fuck away
Heck, if the API to the Zune store and its DRM was open you'd probably see several open source implementations for various devices implementing similar functionality
. Walled gardens are an issue entirely separate from Linux/FOSS, at least IMO. Whether you want to use Windows or anything else, I hate walled gardens. iTunes and Apple's consistent attempts to break third-party apps is a good example.Sorry never had a call like that. EVER
heatlesssun
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Heck, if the API to the Zune store and its DRM was open you'd probably see several open source implementations for various devices implementing similar functionality
While understand your issues with DRM I understand the reason for it and I'm sorry, just keeping everything open isn't probably the answer. The problem is simply people won't pony up money if they can get stuff for free. Not that they can't now but there's still a little barrier.
Until there REALLY is a way for content to be sold in an open manner and people are actually willing to pay a fair price, DRM is not going away. There are two sides to this problem.
Based on your line of reasoning that would mean Zune is crap considering Apple sells millions of iPods compared to the Zune. Is that what you are trying to say?
heatlesssun
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Dude this makes no sense.
As far a music in concerned the Zune is WAY better than an iPod anyway.
Have you ever stopped and thought that maybe the reason for the lack of purchased music is because the internet has completely changed their business model? CD's DVD's etc were all methods of distributing content. In fact that's all records labels are....music distributors. The Internet has changed all of that, much like robotics have changed how automobiles are built. We don't keep line workers on the job because the robotics industry makes it easier do we? No of course not. So why do it for any other industry? DRM is nothing but a corporate backed - government sponsored method of double dipping into the consumer's pocket when technology has made their way of doing business obsolete. So I'm sorry I'm not for that.
Dude this makes no sense.
As far a music in concerned the Zune is WAY better than an iPod anyway.
So do I. That's why numbers don't tell you anything about whether a product is really good or not.