DX11 Isn't Important...says Nvidia...

Atech said:
Lies, I just enjoyed Darkest of Days...been enjoying PhysX in games since 2006...don't know where you have been hiding?

and why don't you ASK an actual developer...like Ellendan about what they think?
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actual developer? count me in please....

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1451954
http://www.destructoid.com/review-darkest-of-days-147921.phtml
http://pc.ign.com/articles/102/1023108p1.html
http://www.pcgamingstandards.com/Blog.aspx?blogid=6

welcome to the fail train. Please enjoy yourself before the train arrive to the final destination..
 
shansoft said:
actual developer? count me in please....
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Nothing you have written suggest that...

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1451954
http://www.destructoid.com/review-darkest-of-days-147921.phtml
http://pc.ign.com/articles/102/1023108p1.html
http://www.pcgamingstandards.com/Blog.aspx?blogid=6

welcome to the fail train. Please enjoy yourself before the train arrive to the final destination..
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Why should I read you links...you dismiss links you don't like...favour returned :)
 
Guitarrasdeamor said:
Didn't see this posted, if it was, I apologize.



http://vr-zone.com/articles/nvidia-directx-11-is-not-important/7674.html?doc=7674
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Much like the other thread, you OP make the same mistake:
No where in the interview, does the guy from NVIDIA say DX11 isn't important. He does say though

DirectX 11 by itself is not going be the defining reason to buy a new GPU. It will be one of the reasons
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And that's true, no matter how tremendously biased you are against NVIDIA. No one will buy a HD 5800 card because of DX11, but rather because of the performance increase it offers over previous generations and maybe one or two new features it has. DX11 compliance is a bonus that will eventually be useful, but it's definitely NOT the sole reason to upgrade to a new GPU.
 
shansoft said:
physX now is the most used physics middleware in the industry?

oh geeze, that makes me laugh so bad..... (not mentioning it drops fps deep below when its enable ) :p
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What makes us all laugh is your lack of knowledge on the matter. And yes PhysX is the most used physics library at this point:

http://www.bulletphysics.com/wordpress/?p=88

shansoft said:
where havok stand for?
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In second place of course.

shansoft said:
and I bet you dont know what tessellation is....and why so many developer takes the advantage of it :D
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Really ? In what games ? Can I play them now ?

shansoft said:
]PS: 3D Vision? How much this thing cost exactly? and does drop fps? :rolleyes:
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It costs less than buying three monitors to take advantage of Eyefinity.
 
Not important now, but you bet it will be when they are showing it off. :p PR makes me laugh sometimes.
 
DX10 to DX11 will be much less painful than DX9 to DX10.

Not to mention there is still nice features you can take advantage of, even if you don't upgrade. Compute Shader is FAST from the looks of it and it worked very well on their demo and it will work (slightly limited) on DX10 hardware as well.

Really, it's a win / win. Upgrade and you get nice benefits. Don't upgrade and you get some anyway... which is nice because I don't think I'll be upgrading for another year or so. My GTX 260 is still enough to plow through most games @ 60+ fps at my monitors res of 1440x900, so whatev.


I'm glad ATI is taking the incentive to push new shit though.
 
The problem with PhysX is most developers won't ever bother doing anything other than minor cosmetic effects since only half or less of the PC user base will be able to see/use it, such as the case with Mirror's Edge and Batman. This will only get worse (or better for Havok) if the Radeon 5800 manages to get a significant market lead over GT300.

The Witcher 2 alpha footage shows you can do some pretty impressive things with Havok, so it won't be the end of the world if PhysX eventually fizzles out.
 
AceCR42 said:
The problem with PhysX is most developers won't ever bother doing anything other than minor cosmetic effects since only half or less of the PC user base will be able to see/use it, such as the case with Mirror's Edge and Batman. This will only get worse (or better for Havok) if the Radeon 5800 manages to get a significant market lead over GT300.

The Witcher 2 alpha footage shows you can do some pretty impressive things with Havok, so it won't be the end of the world if PhysX eventually fizzles out.
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you seem to be confusing gpu physx with the standard physx api, which is being used fine with no problems in software off the cpu in mirrors edge and batman. since only "half" the market has capable hardware and most games are multiplatform with consoles, then yes, the gpu-accelerated physics effects will still remain *optional*. as far as market share, physx has apparently been gaining alot of ground in the past few years when it started since it is now the #1 used physics api.

http://www.bulletphysics.com/wordpress/?p=88

i'm pretty sure devs will still use both physx and havok as their middleware of choice for some time to come.
 
CPU physics is pretty much limited to rigid-body physics, though. Soft body, including cloth, is really hard on the CPU due to the limited processing power. I think I'll put a CPU vs GPU video series together one day using a few demos to illustrate the limitations of CPU physics. It's about a factor 100 difference.

As for DX11. It's basically a maintenance patch for DX9. Anything you can do in DX11 graphics-wise you can do in DX9, just as with DX10. Some things are streamlined, more hardware features are added to make certain effects easier to accomplish,but all around it won't make a big difference.

The tesselation thing still cracks me up, though, as hardware tesselation is hardly anything new. It's been in use for over a decade or so in OpenGL, just like compute shaders/custom shaders AKA GLSL. NVidia is right in saying that DX11 should not be a deciding factor in choosing a new GPU, as it's just a new gadget for developers. Looking at DX9 vs DX10 games, one would be hard pressed to see any differences which could solely be attributed to either DX version. The same will be true with DX11 vs DX9/10.
 
yeah, but it still is the lowest common denominator for the widest range of hardware, so gotta make do for now, lol. and at least dx11 finally catches up then, right? most games are multiplatform or console ports on pc anyway aside from a few decent pc exclusives from time to time, so i wouldn't expect much to change until the next gen. of consoles arrives, assuming there even is a next gen.
 
kumquatsrus said:
yeah, but it still is the lowest common denominator for the widest range of hardware, so gotta make do for now, lol. and at least dx11 finally catches up then, right? most games are multiplatform or console ports on pc anyway aside from a few decent pc exclusives from time to time, so i wouldn't expect much to change until the next gen. of consoles arrives, assuming there even is a next gen.
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Correct. It won't change much, though obviously some games with DX11 features will appear. It just isn't a deciding factor to upgrade. People will upgrade, because they want better performing cards, in the games they currently play.
 
DX11 will be a deciding factor for many people pulling the trigger on purchase along with a single GPU out performing a GTX 295. You have now entered teh no spin zone welcome to faux news.
 
kadozer said:
DX11 will be a deciding factor for many people pulling the trigger on purchase along with a single GPU out performing a GTX 295. You have now entered teh no spin zone welcome to faux news.
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Really ? Why is it a deciding factor then ? Does Joe Average see the difference between DX10 and DX11 ? DX10 to DX11 is mostly efficiency, not graphics improvements, so how does a person that doesn't know this, will see DX11 as deciding factor to buy a new graphics cards, especially when there's no DX11 games out.
Obviously Joe Average most likely doesn't even know if there are DX11 games out or not, in which case you must be saying that anyone saying that DX11 is a deciding factor to buy new graphics cards, is banking on Joe Average's ignorance on the matter ?
 
Seriously, what do people expect Nvidia to say?

"Directx 11 is the most important thing to happen to gaming in the last decade. Sorry, our Directx 11 video card won't be available for months".

Or per the other thread where Nvidia states their card will be faster, "Don't wait for our card, its not even as fast as the HD5870".
 
Silus said:
Really ? Why is it a deciding factor then ? Does Joe Average see the difference between DX10 and DX11 ? DX10 to DX11 is mostly efficiency, not graphics improvements, so how does a person that doesn't know this, will see DX11 as deciding factor to buy a new graphics cards, especially when there's no DX11 games out.
Obviously Joe Average most likely doesn't even know if there are DX11 games out or not, in which case you must be saying that anyone saying that DX11 is a deciding factor to buy new graphics cards, is banking on Joe Average's ignorance on the matter ?
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Lol your next retort is too obvious and transparent. Of course you're gonna say games like Dirt aren't technically DX11 games because it just has DX11 features tacked on.
Lots of games with DX 11 features (NVIDIA has no answer for) are already in the Pipeline: STALKER, Crysis 3 Engine, Battlefield 3, Aliens vs Predator are some that I've heard about already.

Downplay DX11 ..go!
 
DX isn't normally a driving force for enthusiasts. Enthusiasts know that games that make use of the latest DX are a few months out. However, enthusiasts don't drive the market. The Average Joe consumer does.

When the Average Joe walks into a store and sees two computers next to each for the same price they start looking at specs. Let's assume everything is the same but the video card. One is AMD and one is Nvidia. Underneath the specs it says AMD DX11 and Nvidia DX10. Guess which one the consumer will buy? They'll go with the bigger number because it must be better. So in reality DX is a HUGE driving force. Even if that consumer only plays Solitaire they want DX11 because they want the "best" for their money.

The Average Joe doesn't give a shit about PhysX or CUDA. They don't even know what they are. Much less will they spend the money on added video cards so that PhysX is even worth anything.
 
I was referring to tech forum enthusiast people like us, not the average Joe. Talking about people that read Hard forums, extremesystems, Guru3d, anandtech etc.
Having a DX11 card vs waiting for Nvidia's in a few months or more is definitely one more added value that will weigh in. Its a small percentage but that's the point I was making a short term head start for having a DX11 ready card that would apply to people like us because well... ya know Average Joe wouldnt know.
 
I finally switched to DX10-11 capable OS and found the list of DX10 games less than impressive.


BTW average joe doesn't give a crap if it has DX10 or 11 capable. They care about if the card costs less than $150 and prefer something in the low $60-70 range.
 
I am looking forward to DX11 - hw tessellation looks good, and a DX11 card means dev's might start to develop for it. However I am under no illusion that we will get many DX11 games for a long time. tbh I am still waiting to play a DX10 game that is significantly different to DX9c. Even crysis basically looks the same with the XP ultra high tweaks.

I mean the devs develop for consoles first then port to the PC (for which only 29% are DX10 according to the steam hardware survey). Assuming that PC's are 1/3 of sales (1/3 xbox, 1/3 PS3) that means only 13% of the sales of a game will be using DX10, of them you can assume most will be too slow to use any special DX10 effects (i.e. most shop bought laptops and desktops).

If that's DX10 (out for several years) how many devs are going to bother developing for DX11? You'll hardly get any sales for it - in fact it can count against you - I for example bought crysis 2 years after it came out because I decided I didn't want to play it at medium settings. Obviously being 2 years old I got it cheap so crytek lost money, unlike say COD 4 which I bought right away because it ran maxed on my old 8800GT.

In the end all games will be DX11 but other then the odd Ati/nvidia sponsored special it's gonna take a couple of years, perhaps until the next gen consoles arrive.
 
kadozer said:
Lol your next retort is too obvious and transparent. Of course you're gonna say games like Dirt aren't technically DX11 games because it just has DX11 features tacked on.
Lots of games with DX 11 features (NVIDIA has no answer for) are already in the Pipeline: STALKER, Crysis 3 Engine, Battlefield 3, Aliens vs Predator are some that I've heard about already.

Downplay DX11 ..go!
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No one is saying there won't be games that support DX11, but they won't be the sole reason why people will buy new cards.
Same thing happened with DX10. Some games (on the "pipeline" and already out) had DX10 support, but no one bought a 8800 GTX because of DX10 compliance. They bought it, because it more than doubled the performance of two of the previous generation of cards. Same thing will happen now. DX11 isn't going anywhere special, at least not until the driving force of game development (consoles), are able to use DX11 or whatever comes next.
 
kadozer said:
I was referring to tech forum enthusiast people like us, not the average Joe. Talking about people that read Hard forums, extremesystems, Guru3d, anandtech etc.
Having a DX11 card vs waiting for Nvidia's in a few months or more is definitely one more added value that will weigh in. Its a small percentage but that's the point I was making a short term head start for having a DX11 ready card that would apply to people like us because well... ya know Average Joe wouldnt know.
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But it's Average Joe that drives sales, not enthusiasts. You should know that by now.

High sales don't come from high-end cards. They come from whatever takes the $100-$150 price range.
 
Silus said:
DX11 isn't going anywhere special, at least not until the driving force of game development (consoles), are able to use DX11 or whatever comes next.
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I might disagree with you there. I think DX11 is going to go farther than DX10 did.
 
Vermillion said:
Counter-Strike 1.6 still uses Truform too if you have the hardware. ;) Used to run it on a 9700 Pro. Made the M4 look a little fat but made everything else look better. ;)
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One of the Serious Sams game also used it too. I remember the jokes about the dildo gun when it was enabled and set to a high level of tessellation :)
 
Brent_Justice said:
I might disagree with you there. I think DX11 is going to go farther than DX10 did.
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I agree, I think most developers will just skip DX10 to DX11, its out there and there's no reason for developers to use DX10 from this point on

However, I don't see this happening in the near future because most developers these days are developing cross platform games. At least for genres where graphics plays an important role. It don't see why any developers would want to spend the extra cost and time to develop an engine that utilizes DX11 and all the new graphic hardware horsepower, and then have to tweak it, take things out just to make a console version.

If if were to make a bet, I'd say that we'll see a widespread utilization only when the gaming industry moves on to a new generation of consoles. Maybe DX11 will take off then, assuming that there's no DX12 by then (I don't think Microsoft will do that anyway)

As far as hardware is concern, that would be beyond the upcoming generation of graphic cards.
 
Brent_Justice said:
I might disagree with you there. I think DX11 is going to go farther than DX10 did.
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And I don't disagree in that context. But anytime soon ? I very much doubt it. The adoption may not be as slow as it was with DX10, but not anywhere near "fast".
 
Hornet said:
I agree, I think most developers will just skip DX10 to DX11, its out there and there's no reason for developers to use DX10 from this point on

However, I don't see this happening in the near future because most developers these days are developing cross platform games.
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And this is my whole point. DX11 won't matter much, because there won't be many games that support it (in any important/relevant manner) for quite a while.
Only if there's a big blockbuster that will really require DX11 hardware, that could change, but that's simply not going to happen, when cross-platform is the "trend" and the main SKU is always the console version.
 
Hornet said:
I agree, I think most developers will just skip DX10 to DX11, its out there and there's no reason for developers to use DX10 from this point on

However, I don't see this happening in the near future because most developers these days are developing cross platform games. At least for genres where graphics plays an important role. It don't see why any developers would want to spend the extra cost and time to develop an engine that utilizes DX11 and all the new graphic hardware horsepower, and then have to tweak it, take things out just to make a console version.

If if were to make a bet, I'd say that we'll see a widespread utilization only when the gaming industry moves on to a new generation of consoles. Maybe DX11 will take off then, assuming that there's no DX12 by then (I don't think Microsoft will do that anyway)

As far as hardware is concern, that would be beyond the upcoming generation of graphic cards.
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I hate the idea that consoles are driving PC gaming. The sad fact is though, as we've witnessed this past summer with games, is that it is true. Now, there are some developers thank goodness not taking this approach. I think now with Win7/DX11 we might start to see this trend slow down and developers get back to their PC gaming roots. At least I hope so!

At any rate, it is better to get the DX11 capable hardware out there NOW so that developers can start developing on that platform. The longer it goes without DX11 hardware, the longer it will be before DX11 games. In my evaluation, I have some information on this topic that will be quite enlightening.
 
Silus said:
No one is saying there won't be games that support DX11, but they won't be the sole reason why people will buy new cards.
Same thing happened with DX10. Some games (on the "pipeline" and already out) had DX10 support, but no one bought a 8800 GTX because of DX10 compliance. They bought it, because it more than doubled the performance of two of the previous generation of cards. Same thing will happen now. DX11 isn't going anywhere special, at least not until the driving force of game development (consoles), are able to use DX11 or whatever comes next.
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Way to miss the point on go off tangent. Well dont blame you and your undying devotion. DX11 will be a good added feature. .is that simple enough for you? No? Ok got it. Without DX11 hardware there will be no games developed for it. PC gamers should welcome progress. I was right about the downplay haha.
 
Silus said:
And this is my whole point. DX11 won't matter much, because there won't be many games that support it (in any important/relevant manner) for quite a while.
Only if there's a big blockbuster that will really require DX11 hardware, that could change, but that's simply not going to happen, when cross-platform is the "trend" and the main SKU is always the console version.
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Agreed. Especially when two of the games in the next 12-18 months most people are waiting on are still DX9c with some DX10 thrown in: StarCraft 2 and Diablo 3. Now if they were DX11 then things might be different because those are the blockbusters that could push it hard.
 
Brent_Justice said:
It'll be faster than DX10 by comparison.
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Building on this, I think it would be neat to go back and plot a trend of DX releases and adoption rate of released games supporting the new API. This would allow us to see how current game adoption compares to past DX releases. I think I just found myself some new research to do :D
 
Brent_Justice said:
Building on this, I think it would be neat to go back and plot a trend of DX releases and adoption rate of released games supporting the new API. This would allow us to see how current game adoption compares to past DX releases. I think I just found myself some new research to do :D
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Hey Kyle I think Brent is bored! Put him to work!
 
One other thing to keep in mind about DX11 is that Windows 7 seems to have a LOT fewer people in direct opposition to it. Vista still has PR problems to this day. I have to think that's another reason DX10 never completely caught on.
 
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