Windows 7 Under Fire for ‘Treacherous Computing’

bonsai said:
Your situation is hardly indicative of the public, and had you not had relatively free access to Windows would your tune change? Possibly. I know that when I don't have access to things like MSDN or MSDNAA I take a good look at what my costs are. The fact that Linux doesn't cost me anything upfront where Windows can cost anywhere from $100- $300 is a big factor. Luckily I've never pay more than $50 for Windows, but that's because that's all it's worth to me, especially when there is another free alternative.
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His position actually is quite indicative of the public. Most people get Windows already installed on their computers when they walk out of the store with it or open the box the delivery guy left on their porch. It is essentially free from the end-user's perspective.
 
Joe Average said:
If Apple had 95% market share and Microsoft Windows had 4% or less, we'd all be complaining about Apple.

End of story.
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No you'd be an Apple fanboi, claming it's the best OS EVAR and I'd be complaining about Apple. ;)

Seriously though, Microsoft has been building proprietary systems into it's products and slowly squeezing out competition for decades now. Essentially penalizing markets who don't want to use or support their products. A simple example would be DirectX vs OpenGl. OpenGL just isn't a viable alternative for game development anymore (id is the only large studio I know of that uses it), and it's because of Microsoft pushing it's influence and money around.
 
bonsai said:
How so? Which is better? A product that is free and works pretty well. Or a product that costs $200 and works really well? Both have their merits.
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Except Linux isn't a product that's "free and works pretty well." It's absolutely horrible for anything except a basic file, web, or email server.
 
ryan_975 said:
His position actually is quite indicative of the public. Most people get Windows already installed on their computers when they walk out of the store with it or open the box the delivery guy left on their porch. It is essentially free from the end-user's perspective.
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Most consumers know that Windows is not free, and if they ever do want to upgrade they see the price of that. Most consumers don't buy upgrades because they know they can get it for less when they buy a new PC. The hardware people want to keep it that way anyway. If they were aware of free alternatives it could sway their opinions, but then again until software support is there, they aren't going to stick with the free option anyway.
 
ThisIsTheNewSound said:
Don't forget the tens of thousands of dollars in re-training you will have to do for your staff once they switch from linux to win---

Oh wait. They already all use windows at home so they know their way around the OS already.
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Unless they're Apple customers. In which case you fire them and find new employees.
 
bonsai said:
Most consumers know that Windows is not free, and if they ever do want to upgrade they see the price of that. Most consumers don't buy upgrades because they know they can get it for less when they buy a new PC. The hardware people want to keep it that way anyway. If they were aware of free alternatives it could sway their opinions, but then again until software support is there, they aren't going to stick with the free option anyway.
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What, like the 'free' support you get with a linux distro? :rolleyes:
 
If the Free Software Foundation put full page ads in the 50 largest newspapers in the US (ok, make it 100, whatever) and ran those ads 7 days a week for 6 months, Linux marketshare still wouldn't crack 2%.

Even if the FSF mailed you the discs to install it.

Even if the FSF sent a geek to your home/etc to install it for you.

Even if the FSF sent a geek to your home/etc to install it for you and spend a day teaching you how to use it.

Even if the FSF provided 24/7 toll free technical support for it.

Hell, they could probably give away Linux-powered computers and it still wouldn't make a difference. People would get 'em, start 'em and wonder, "Ok, where's Explorer?" and that's that. Here comes Windows about to be installed... and they'd PAY someone to come wipe Linux off the box and install Windows on it.

Someday folks will figure this out.
 
bonsai said:
I pay for any software that is worth the cost, the cost of the platform that it runs on doesn't matter. That's a ridiculous notion. I also donate to support free software that is worth the cost. Sure there are fringe people that want everything to be free, but many of them also steal commercial software, so they aren't really part of the equation on either side.



Your situation is hardly indicative of the public, and had you not had relatively free access to Windows would your tune change? Possibly. I know that when I don't have access to things like MSDN or MSDNAA I take a good look at what my costs are. The fact that Linux doesn't cost me anything upfront where Windows can cost anywhere from $100- $300 is a big factor. Luckily I've never pay more than $50 for Windows, but that's because that's all it's worth to me, especially when there is another free alternative.

And if you don't think Microsoft doesn't have a chokehold over the software development market you're blind.
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bonsai said:
Most consumers know that Windows is not free, and if they ever do want to upgrade they see the price of that. Most consumers don't buy upgrades because they know they can get it for less when they buy a new PC. The hardware people want to keep it that way anyway. If they were aware of free alternatives it could sway their opinions, but then again until software support is there, they aren't going to stick with the free option anyway.
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Most consumers don't worry about upgrading. What they have works. It comes out of the box and just works. Manufacturers know that people don't want Linux because it doesn't just work the way Windows does. In that regard, Windows to the consumer is absolutely free. Ask anyone using their computer (that isn't an example of a typical member here) they'll not have considered Windows being a separate entity to the box sitting on the floor.
 
ChairmanMiau said:
Visual C++, despite being nonsensically bloated.



Oh shit, better change my mind, then.



My Wacom tablet behaves the same on XP, so what are you referring to?
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Who said anything about changing your mind? Your opionion flies in the face of a lot of other people so either you're the man who sees better than most everyone else or a bit of a hack. Not trying to be insulting but when 90% of people get off the plane, I know I ain't staying on!:D

You Wacom tablet is cool and all but kind of dated in the Windows 7 world. No touch or multi-touch. And handwritting recognition is a big leap better in 7. I've have XP tablets, Vista and now 7. 7 is CLEARLY better on the tablet side on a lot of fronts.
 
heatlesssun said:
You Wacom tablet is cool and all but kind of dated in the Windows 7 world. No touch or multi-touch. And handwritting recognition is a big leap better in 7. I've have XP tablets, Vista and now 7. 7 is CLEARLY better on the tablet side on a lot of fronts.
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You've never used a wacom before, apparently. There is a HUGE difference between a touch screen interface and a wacom.
 
bonsai said:
There's your answer right there.

That's all Linux really needs to take off. It's the reason why I'm not on Linux 100% and why I don't recommend it to everyone I know, but until Microsoft takes it's chokehold off the software development market and it's monopoly is broken up it's not going to happen.Is Linux going to rule the world anytime soon? Of course not, only fanbois care about shit like that. But the major thing holding it back at this time from being a real contender is software support. I know a huge amount of people in this forum would switch instantly if they could reliably game on Linux. I already use almost entirely free software that I can use on Linux as it is, but a few key players are holding me back. It's inching along little by little, but unfortunately Linux can't buy off people like Microsoft, so it's going to take a while.
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This argument is the WEAKEST of them all. All Linux has needed for a DECADE is apps. When is it supposed to happen? Next year of course.

You time and time again state the VERY things that have made desktop Linux look pathetic. If a DECADE isn't time enough for apps then honestly, with the clound threatening native clients anyway, NOBODY is going to take the time to write apps for a science fair desktop OS.

At least you're willing to pay for software, and that brings the total to 3 in the Linux world. If you don't understand JUST how big of problem this is in the Linux world, then I really wonder. Linux people DON'T WANT TO PAY FOR SHIT!!!! Hell Windows users really aren't that far behind. Me I spends at least $2k-$3k a year on software counting games so when people complain about spending $200 bucks for Windows that'll last them for three years I just laugh.

I'm sorry, the Linux just doesn't have enough people like me to support traditional commercial development. How's it Microsoft's fault that Linux people don't spend money on software?
 
Modred189 said:
You've never used a wacom before, apparently. There is a HUGE difference between a touch screen interface and a wacom.
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I've had TWO tablets with built in Wacom digitizers. I know about electromagnetic pens. My tx2z has BOTH capacitive touch and electromagnetic interfaces though tx2z digitizer isn't Wacom, it's N-trig based. I do believe that Wacom is developing such a dual mode digitizer if they've not released it already.
 
Windows 7 is going to be free for me just like every other M$ software, so from that I don't have to complain about it. if I don't like it I simply don't use it, no risk at all.

I do like how so many come in this thread and claim they're not fanboys of MS yet feel the need to spiel and try and rebuttal when obviously articles of this nature get a rise out of them.
 
heatlesssun said:
Originally Posted by heatlesssun View Post
And if you don't think Windows 7 isn't good then you're in a tiny minority.
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Just because it's a democracy, doesn't mean it's right. Look what happened with George Bush, twice.
 
that article cracks me up. I am still using NT4 and 2K in a virtual box environment on my laptop :p
 
Founded in the mid-1980s by hacker-activist Richard Stallman , the FSF argues that free software and source code is a moral right. It takes pains to distinguish itself from the open-source movement, which advocates sharing of source code but tolerates charging for software.
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They, and everyone else has the absolute right to all the free software (they can write). I still can't comprehend how anyone thinks they have the right to the fruits of someone elses labor.
 
Amount of money I've made off of Linux in 8 years: $0
Amount of money I've made off of Windows in the last 8 months: $20/hour as an intern:eek:

I use Linux for my servers before I would consider any windows platform. However, as a desktop OS, I would use windows even faster.

- Windows is compatible with all the programs I use
- It makes me money
- Being a student, I get reduced priced software or I get free software (see their dreamspark program).
- If I make a product, I'm going to aim it at the largest OS. If several OS's are almost equal in use, then I'll build for all of those. As Windows is the dominating OS, I just need to write software for just one OS

The list goes on and on, why Windows is better for me.

Seriously, The one thing I hate about Linux, and other open source software where a bunch of people seemingly work seperately and basically competingly, is that it feels like the entire group is some kind of siamese chicken diverging upwards at the mid body with a hundred heads coming from each neck with each head trying to move in its own direction and thinking that *its* direction is the right one.

They need to get together and work together instead of having a billion splinters. Quick, someone list me all the distributions of linux. Here we go. Crap that's a ton. I'm pretty sure that many of them may be dead by now judging from their last release date (either that or their distros are so good, they don't need to update very often). Who has the time to go through all of that? Get the latest version of OSX or Windows. Yeah, that seems much simpler than comparing Linux to its many selves.
 
bonsai said:
There's your answer right there.

That's all Linux really needs to take off. It's the reason why I'm not on Linux 100% and why I don't recommend it to everyone I know, but until Microsoft takes it's chokehold off the software development market and it's monopoly is broken up it's not going to happen.
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Microsoft has a chokehold on developers? They force developers to not develop for Linux? Which developers does MS force to not develop for Linux?
 
Helicopter said:
Microsoft has a chokehold on developers? They force developers to not develop for Linux? Which developers does MS force to not develop for Linux?
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The ones from the unicorn and puppy-dogs planet. Didn't you hear?
 
Helicopter said:
They, and everyone else has the absolute right to all the free software (they can write). I still can't comprehend how anyone thinks they have the right to the fruits of someone elses labor.
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Well, when you don't need to code for a living it makes perfect sense. Stallman doesn't code for a living. He flaps his mouth for a living.

Stallman is a total whack-job.
 
It's the same mentality that leads to the belief that people shouldn't have to pay for food. Really the same mentality that says everyone should get the best health care available no matter how much they can pay for it.

It's a general lack of understanding of trade. Not free trade. Not economies. Just a lack of understanding of trade, in general. Trade is the backbone of civilization and a segment of ours just doesn't seem to understand it at all. Complete failure of our educational system (which includes parents).
 
KayossZero said:
Windows 7 is going to be free for me just like every other M$ software, so from that I don't have to complain about it. if I don't like it I simply don't use it, no risk at all.

I do like how so many come in this thread and claim they're not fanboys of MS yet feel the need to spiel and try and rebuttal when obviously articles of this nature get a rise out of them.
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Make no bones about it I am a Windows fanboy! I like to point out the good things of Windows all day long. And I'll point out Windows weaknesses in a second as well.

Windows can be temperamental from time to time; it simply has a way of acting inconsistently. I've usually found that it’s because I didn't have my facts straight but too much of Windows is inconsistent and temperamental. Also, what is it with OEMS and the CRAP they put one their machines. Arggg! Not a Windows problem per se but a HUGE problem in the Windows ecosystem as the extra stuff just weighs down a PC. And that FREEKING NORTON SHIT!!!!! The first thing I do with a retail Windows laptop is WIPE it clean and do a fresh install. This shit REALLY hurts the Windows experience.

And there's PLENTY of other stuff to rail Windows on. But when compared to all the others it’s just amazing how well Windows can do the job. All my media, games, communications, just all the things I can even THINK of doing with a computer I can do with Windows usually with minimal fuss. Sometime things do get very hairy. But more often it’s just as easy as run the installer and being done. It's just so CONVIENENT to have all this computing power for almost any task with easy to use tools.

Sure Linux can do a lot of things well. And it’s easy to setup for web surfing and basic office automation. Now according to the distro you’re using you may or may not have just about anything else. You may or may not have decent drivers that don't require a lot of CLI doinking. With Windows for new hardware you pretty much know it’s going to be well supported under XP and Vista, and 7 now because Vista driver compatibility with 7 is damn near 100%. Linux however does have decent driver support and might even be better than Windows with older hardware, but for new stuff the gap is pretty wide.

So maybe I’m not a real fanboy in that I can see real problems with Windows but I think the pluses outweigh the minuses and thus I consider myself a Windows fanboy, Go Windows!
 
Vryce said:
It's the same mentality that leads to the belief that people shouldn't have to pay for food. Really the same mentality that says everyone should get the best health care available no matter how much they can pay for it.

It's a general lack of understanding of trade. Not free trade. Not economies. Just a lack of understanding of trade, in general. Trade is the backbone of civilization and a segment of ours just doesn't seem to understand it at all. Complete failure of our educational system (which includes parents).
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While I agree that free market trade is the driving force of the world as people work to obtain profit mainly, I do think that there is the concept of social good that compels us to not be barbaric. Would we not treat a homeless woman who just had a heart attack because she had no money and no insurance? I think clearly that most of the civilized world has said of course we’ll take care of her to at least some extent. So then the question is where does charity end and usury begin?
 
I feel that the peeps overseeing the GPL are threatened by amount of praises and success W7 has brought about. :p
 
Saw this and just had to share it...

1251704203845.png


Guess it's a good thing it wasn't running the plane, eh? FREE SOFTWARE FTL!!! ;)
 
Haha, I also saw a few of those video things crash on an airplane and seeing linux running... they were actually able to re-set and people went back to watching.

It was hilarious seeing their faces though...
 
xveganx said:
Sorry, that just sounds ignorant.
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Not to the general populace it's not. He's right. Linux may be great for geeks and hobbyist, but in the business world, I prefer Linux as a server over desktop (although my servers are mostly Windows 2003 and 2008 servers).

Just because you enjoy Linux doesn't mean anyone else does too. It's easy to skew your perspective as a user.

We speak English and it comes so easily to us. So everyone else in the world should be able to speak it too. Right?
 
ScreamingBroccoli said:
Half of his list is complete bullshit and the other is smart business on MS's part

Here is what I find as complete bullshit :

1. Poisoning education: Today, most children whose education involves computers are being taught to use one company's product: Microsoft's. Microsoft spends large sums on lobbyists and marketing to corrupt educational departments. An education using the power of computers should be a means to freedom and empowerment, not an avenue for one corporation to instill its monopoly.

My oppinion is this guy is a linux fanboy crybaby without a leg to stand on. I use all 3 major OS invironments and really don't have a problem with any. His arguments are just stupid.
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That quote bugs me because it is somewhat true. It's not that IT people in education are corrupt at all. Schools never hire enough IT staff and Microsoft makes their products dirt cheap for education use. So do overworked school IT people spend time on Linux or use the deployment tools Microsoft provides since it's cheap....duh. I worked in education IT for 5 years the Windows licenses are so cheap for schools you would have to be a die hard Linux / Mac fan to even consider not buying Dell / MS.
 
Azhar said:
Not to the general populace it's not. He's right. Linux may be great for geeks and hobbyist, but in the business world, I prefer Linux as a server over desktop (although my servers are mostly Windows 2003 and 2008 servers).

Just because you enjoy Linux doesn't mean anyone else does too. It's easy to skew your perspective as a user.

We speak English and it comes so easily to us. So everyone else in the world should be able to speak it too. Right?
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Ehh that old argument doesn't hold as much weight as it used to. If I were going to set up a desktop environment that was meant to be fast, secure and lightweight I would use a distro like Ubuntu or SUSE instead of Windows.
Lots of office environments have very specific software they want running and nothing else. Linux is perfect for that and you look like a hero when you don't spend money on new hardware but the existing computers seem much faster.
 
so far my only beef with windows 7 was the media centre recordings only work on the pc it was recorded on, which is lame

other than that its been great
 
blarg said:
Ehh that old argument doesn't hold as much weight as it used to. If I were going to set up a desktop environment that was meant to be fast, secure and lightweight I would use a distro like Ubuntu or SUSE instead of Windows.
Lots of office environments have very specific software they want running and nothing else. Linux is perfect for that and you look like a hero when you don't spend money on new hardware but the existing computers seem much faster.
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Ubuntu and OOo take twice as long to boot and load than WIndows and Office 2007.
 
blarg is correct on this point. In a very specific environment running a group of apps on hardware that is well supported linux is a very stable and secure platform.

Ironic thing is it is more often than not it is proprietary apps that they are running. Something Stallman would never endorse, and would rather die than admit it has a place, and without it devs would not eat food.
 
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