LadyMakoFox
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Dec 4, 2004
- Messages
- 8,101
isnt this a beta... they need to snoop into your pc to improve the game as so many people run apps for this or that.
![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
Unsettling EULA for Quake Live using PunkBuster
- Thread starter JAM1NG1
- Start date
- Status
No, now they'll know how much porn I've got on my harddrives!
Anyway... it's not what it can get from your computer, its more a matter of principle. You think this is alright, and they'll eventually move towards other things... and you'll slowly accept that, and so on and so on. And it's private stuff, some people, like myself have documents with passwords, albeit old and unupdated.... Not the best place to hold it.... true... but it's nice and convenient for me.
Anyway... it's not what it can get from your computer, its more a matter of principle. You think this is alright, and they'll eventually move towards other things... and you'll slowly accept that, and so on and so on. And it's private stuff, some people, like myself have documents with passwords, albeit old and unupdated.... Not the best place to hold it.... true... but it's nice and convenient for me.
slippery slope arguments aside, it IS a violation of privacy and you should be wary of what you allow them to have access to.
Why does the provision allow for any and all files on your harddrive? why not say it can only have access to actively running processes? Why does it need to be so invasive?
Personally I won't be touching this one. DRM is bad enough - I'd rather deal with cheaters and find servers with good admins than let ANY company sniff through my hard drive. I don't care how sterile my HDD is, they have NO right to see what I've got.
Why does the provision allow for any and all files on your harddrive? why not say it can only have access to actively running processes? Why does it need to be so invasive?
Personally I won't be touching this one. DRM is bad enough - I'd rather deal with cheaters and find servers with good admins than let ANY company sniff through my hard drive. I don't care how sterile my HDD is, they have NO right to see what I've got.
Diesel_Power
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Nov 23, 2007
- Messages
- 259
You spend too much time on your computer reading Internet conspiracies.
Do you guys honestly believe that punkbuster has been stealing people's info for the last 5-6 years and haven't been caught yet?
Seriously, if your all this paranoid about the INTERNET then why not just unplug yourselves? Cancel your service and save yourself the money.
Do you guys make myspace, facebook profiles with all your personal info displayed? Do you use your credit card to buy things online? Most of you post your hardware in your sig. You've all given up your own privacy!
Not when you consent to it, no. The term "violation" isn't at all fitting here.
Posting processor and GPU type is the same as authorizing full scans of your hard drive? Nobody here said that punkbuster has been systematically stealing user information. That's your strawman, so knock it down yourself and enjoy.
You're right though...no service that has a "legitimate" use could EVER hand over the information they track to third parties...like last.fm with RIAA...oh wait.
Correct. Nobody will get punkbuster without installing it themselves. However, criticism of the requirement to have PB might lead to reconsideration on the part of those who decided to include it as mandatory to play the game.
Joe Average
Ad Blocker - Banned
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2008
- Messages
- 15,459
The overwhelming majority of the population just don't get what privacy means. They think it means they want it because they have something to hide, whereas those that take the "I don't care" stance are looking at it from the point of "I have nothing to hide" which of course is utter bullshit.
The proper stance is "Regardless of whether I have nothing to hide or everything to hide, the fact remains I must protect the privacy I do have because when everyone takes the 'I don't care' stance, that's when all of us will lose privacy forever just because..."
A lot of you folks would do well to realize this and adopt it. It doesn't matter if you have something to hide or you don't, if you give up the privacy "just because" then later on when you have a serious need for it, you won't have it, it'll be another "right" that's lost...
Just because.
The proper stance is "Regardless of whether I have nothing to hide or everything to hide, the fact remains I must protect the privacy I do have because when everyone takes the 'I don't care' stance, that's when all of us will lose privacy forever just because..."
A lot of you folks would do well to realize this and adopt it. It doesn't matter if you have something to hide or you don't, if you give up the privacy "just because" then later on when you have a serious need for it, you won't have it, it'll be another "right" that's lost...
Just because.
Einhanderkiller
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2006
- Messages
- 2,363
Read post #27.
KillerTomato
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2004
- Messages
- 255
I didn't read through all the replies and everything, but this did pop into my mind.
While yes, they aren't going to rape your computer and look at your secret porn folders, it is nice to know what you are getting yourself into when you click "Ok" on the EULA.
Hell, I never read those damn things.
TC brought something that most people wouldn't catch to light. Props for that.
While yes, they aren't going to rape your computer and look at your secret porn folders, it is nice to know what you are getting yourself into when you click "Ok" on the EULA.
Hell, I never read those damn things.
TC brought something that most people wouldn't catch to light. Props for that.
Slachtbeest
Limp Gawd
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2008
- Messages
- 248
Excellent response, and I personally completely agree on all points.
The "I have nothing to hide, so I don't care" attitude will indeed only lead to issues for everyone else if people continue with such a mentality and accept this type of invasive bullshit.
Because, this...
...is complete bullshit. Are they serious with this shit? Absolutely any file on your system can be read and reported back?
If that's actually the case, that's far past the point of ridiculous, even if you were given an option as whether or not to install it, because there is never a need for something that invasive, period.
I have a ton of personal information on my system, some regarding other individuals as well, that I could never take the risk of having invaded. I run two different businesses from home with a lot of personal information of clients etc.
Oh, and the "You're being tracked by someone somewhere anyway" attitude is ridiculous. The CIA, FBI, your ISP etc. is not hacking into your system and reading the files on your hard drive, so no, you're not "being tracked anyway". It's not that easy to hack into someone's system and read all the files on their system. Paranoia.
However, a prog that states outright that, if installed, it can and will read the files on your hard drive and report them back to anyone, is a whole different story and absolutely absurd. You'd have to be a complete idiot to even take the chance, and to "feed the beast", so-to-speak, by allowing any company (never mind a game developer) to think that people just don't care about such privacy invasion.
'Nough said.
for those of you who keep complaining about PB running all the time, is it really all that hard to create some batch files that start and stop the service? If you're really that concerned with it running then you won't mind taking the extra step to turn on/off the service...
net stop PnkBstrA
net start PnkBstrA
also, someone here mentioned encryption.. if any of you are that concerned with the privacy and security of your personal data then you shouldn't even have it sitting on your hard drives without encryption. I would recommend that you throw your files in a truecrypt container and give a good password that you won't forget. Then you can let them scan all they want, your info will be secure.
net stop PnkBstrA
net start PnkBstrA
also, someone here mentioned encryption.. if any of you are that concerned with the privacy and security of your personal data then you shouldn't even have it sitting on your hard drives without encryption. I would recommend that you throw your files in a truecrypt container and give a good password that you won't forget. Then you can let them scan all they want, your info will be secure.
Joe Average
Ad Blocker - Banned
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2008
- Messages
- 15,459
A most excellent followup and I agree completely. Nice to see some of us "get it" and worry that it's those that "don't have anything to hide" who are going to completely fuck everything up for the rest of us.
Ok, let me rephrase - It's a violation of the mutual understanding of privacy that an individual owning a personal computer comes to expect.
It's in the EULA and you *are* expected to read those things for everything you install. However, they are asking for something above and beyond what is reasonable. Yes, it may be to protect themselves legally - but they still have put language in there that lets them obliterate any expectation of privacy you may have towards your computer. It's not a legal violation per se, but it IS a violation of what is expected to be able to use their product.
It's like expecting everyone at the airport to be strip searched. Yes, it *might* make everyone safer, but it takes things just a little bit too far.
Any video game or program that I find to have this type of language in it's EULA or any other such usage rights document will not receive a penny of my money. I will not partake in services which expect me to relinquish any aspect of my personal freedoms. Quake Live is a bust in my book.
What you don't get, it that it is not an invasion of privacy when you give them permission to do so. You have a choice, player single player only or play multiplayer as well and let AC clients scan your stuff. It's been like that ever since multiplayer games have went mainstream a decade go.Joe Average said:
What's funny is that all the people in this thread with this position, are people who play wow, starcraft, cs:s, diablo, L4D, battlefield, TF2 etc etc with no problem.
LOL
OK, IdiotCow and everyone else with this stance, do not buy and play the following games:
Starcraft 2, Diablo 3, BF 2143, Left4Dead, CS, CS:S, QuakeLive, HLDM, Crysis Wars, Crysis 2, WoTLK, TF2, pretty much any other major multiplayer FPS, MMO, RTS, RPG game.
Proceed to your basement, wear your tinfoil hat, and unplug all electrical devices, cause big brother is spying on you!
It seems all the whiners in this thread do not realize what would happen to multiplayer games if it were not for these AC programs. Think its bad now ? lol
wtf is wrong with you people? READ POST 27, Page 2, MIDDLE
and freakin Drexion is slapping you in the face with the balls of true! You've been doing this for years and you act like it something new. They aren't snooping for your taxes, or fucking gay journal. They are checking for cheating apps.
and freakin Drexion is slapping you in the face with the balls of true! You've been doing this for years and you act like it something new. They aren't snooping for your taxes, or fucking gay journal. They are checking for cheating apps.
It's not just about what they are doing now, but what they are potentially capable of doing, even if they were 100% trustworthy, it doesn't rule out that changing in the future such as them hiring an untrustworthy employee or malicious entity taking advantage of their system such as a hacker or a virus.
There are other games and applications which have similar entries in the T&Cs but not usualy allowing access to the whole system, to read any file they like, usualy theres some defined scope as to what the application can do, like only read in its install folder or read the active process/service list.
Punkbuster is going on my gamingstandards website as a black mark unless it's optional.
damonposey
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2006
- Messages
- 2,320
Question. What do you keep on your gaming PC that is so important that it not be found? seriously.
I have games, some short porn clips and some music. Shit, if I get to play a game I like, feel free to go through my porn clips, if you set some of them on replay it's almost like one continuous movie.
I have games, some short porn clips and some music. Shit, if I get to play a game I like, feel free to go through my porn clips, if you set some of them on replay it's almost like one continuous movie.
Vermillion
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2007
- Messages
- 4,416
Except that 9 times out of 10 PB gets installed with the game regardless. I forget which game I played recently (Maybe R6 Vegas 2?) that used PB and the game would not install if I quit from the PB installation. I have always hated PB. So I installed PB and the first thing I did was shutdown the services and then grabbed the uninstaller tool, which by the way I had to DOWNLOAD as there was no uninstaller included with PB.
You have the option of searching for servers that are not VAC supported. And can you point me to where it's stated VAC scans the entire hard drive. All the information I can find points to Steam game files only, specifically dll and exe scanning and memory (RAM) scanning. They appear to use a set of CRC checks and other heuristics scanning.
I'm not saying your wrong. I just like proof to back up pretty bold statements like that.
MP games would continue. You would just have more mods and admins having to be there on the popular servers to keep the jackasses out.
QFMT ... SO what if it scan my PC for a cheat I DLed. I don't cheat to who cares. I can't wait to start playing Q3 again!
What makes you believe that "all" the people in this thread play those games? Furthermore, what makes you think they play them with "no problem"?
Ok so that was a rhetorical question; obviously you have no way of knowing either of those things, and your assertion was a complete fabrication.
AltTabbins
Fully [H]
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2005
- Messages
- 20,387
Besides what I said in my last post, I think you are causing a security issue if you keep your work in the same place you play.
My home pc is for entertainment.
My laptop has all my personal and work files. All secure and encrypted.
I play games on my desktop and I couldn't care less if somebody got on my system and looked at every file I had on it. I have nothing to hide on that system and the best that the "hacker" could get would be my WoW password (its too bad he doesn't have my authenticator).
My home pc is for entertainment.
My laptop has all my personal and work files. All secure and encrypted.
I play games on my desktop and I couldn't care less if somebody got on my system and looked at every file I had on it. I have nothing to hide on that system and the best that the "hacker" could get would be my WoW password (its too bad he doesn't have my authenticator).
The agreement seems to be pretty broad for what they're supposed to be using it for. I think it would be business suicide for then to knowingly abuse the information, I'm more worried about accidents, hackers, and pissed of employees looking to cause a problem. I have a lot of personal information on my PC that I don't feel a need to make public. I'm not the best twitch fps guy anyway so for me there is no overwhelming reason to agree to this. You just have to decide for yourself if its worth what you're getting out of it. I respect your right to choose without giving you any crap about it, so no pressure to make anyone see it my way. I just don't think it is worth it for me in this case. Something like Diablo 3 I would go a lot further to play, so it is a case by case deal for me.
damonposey
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2006
- Messages
- 2,320
As soon as you plug in your cat5/6 cord into your NIC from a router to the internet, you do make everything on your PC potentially public and you should assume that it is.
Even knowing all I do about networking, I'd still only trust a computer with NO networking device attached and encrypt it to keep truly sensitive data.
Its really funny, seeing someone like Frostex whine about punkbuster in this thread and call it the worst thing ever and say he's blacklisting it - then I go in another thread and see him posting screenshots of himself playing WAR - a game which uses punkbuster. And so forth with so many others whining in this thread. LOL
Most people whining in here don't even realize that their current favourite multiplayer game/mmo does the exact same thing or even worse. hilarious...
Big brother is watching!! oh noes!!
They don't care about your hidden folder of horse-on-girl porn. They just want to catch/ban as many cheaters as possible.
damonposey
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2006
- Messages
- 2,320
that cat's like: 'why me'
PornoSatan
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2004
- Messages
- 3,493
If a firewall is blocking all anonymous requests to his computer then he's fine. The only way information on his PC would become public then is if he did it himself or an "ignorance is bliss" app he wasn't aware of ran without his knowledge sending that type of stuff over the line, which is what the whole point of the thread is about. It's also true that VAC/Warden do the same thing, but neither of them run 24/7 as a service. They start and stop when they're supposed to. It's a pity too, because Punkbuster didn't always install services to be useful.
By the way, the whole "The most secure computer is the one thats turned off or offline" is so cliche.
Well, first they would have to catch me when the computer is on(only a couple of hours a day on my personal pc) then they have to get past the firewall on the router and the pc itself. I'm not worth the trouble on my own to be a very good target. The larger the company, the better the target. I'm sure their security is much better than mine, but it had better be, because they have lots more user info than I have. I just want to limit exposure as much as possible. As I said I'm not the best player at this sort of game, so I'm not willing to go very far to play it. For something I really want to play, I'll put up with more.
Luthorcrow
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2002
- Messages
- 1,241
Why is any of this a surprise? Or a better question, how do you expect PB to do its job if the service or game server is not allowed to scan your PC for cheats? How are is PB and game server admins supposed to be able to ban you if they can't collect data beyond your IP and username?
Sounds like a whole lot noise about nothing.
Sounds like a whole lot noise about nothing.
PornoSatan
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Sep 3, 2004
- Messages
- 3,493
I just want to state my position on the issue. It's not about the scanning process itself, it's more about a running service that's totally useless when the program it's designed for isn't running. There's been issues with other anti-cheat programs as well. Gameguard for example:
Image if VAC, Warden, Gameguard, XTrap, Punkbuster, and all the other anti-cheat applications I can't think of decided they needed to run all the time to be effective (some which already do). More pointless shit to clog a PC when the game they were designed for isn't running. Performance degredation, stability issues, and so on.
Image if VAC, Warden, Gameguard, XTrap, Punkbuster, and all the other anti-cheat applications I can't think of decided they needed to run all the time to be effective (some which already do). More pointless shit to clog a PC when the game they were designed for isn't running. Performance degredation, stability issues, and so on.
damonposey
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2006
- Messages
- 2,320
If a firewall is blocking all anonymous requests to his computer then he's fine. The only way information on his PC would become public then is if he did it himself or an "ignorance is bliss" app he wasn't aware of ran without his knowledge sending that type of stuff over the line, which is what the whole point of the thread is about. It's also true that VAC/Warden do the same thing, but neither of them run 24/7 as a service. They start and stop when they're supposed to. It's a pity too, because Punkbuster didn't always install services to be useful.
By the way, the whole "The most secure computer is the one thats turned off or offline" is so cliche.
IF the firewall hasn't been compromised. but that's one too many If's if you're protecting truly sensitive data and want to be truly secure from the electronic outside. Hey I know it's fun to flex your networking balls, and that statement above is a cliche, but it is still 100% true.
Yep no doubt some of them are poorly implemented, and its fine to hate it for that.
Hating it for "my rights! my freedom! big brother! spying! intrusive! etc etc" is silly. Its an AC, its supposed to be 'intrusive'.
Let's see how long you refuse to "sign over your rights" when Diablo 3 and Starcraft 2 are released. (both will use WardenAC) LOL I am literally lmao at some of the replies in this thread.
Vermillion
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2007
- Messages
- 4,416
Except that Warden AC doesn't scan your whole computer like PunkBuster. It looks at open programs and sends an encrypted hash back to Blizzard about those programs. Those hash marks are compared to a database which contains hashes of known cheats. So Blizzard gets encrypted hash data that's not tied to any personal information unless a hack is found. Yeah, that's the same as PunkBuster alright.
And can you point me to where it's stated VAC scans the entire hard drive. All the information I can find points to Steam game files only, specifically dll and exe scanning and memory (RAM) scanning. They appear to use a set of CRC checks and other heuristics scanning.
Vermillion that has been covered in this thread already in #27. ("Furthermore, our software will not perform "hard disk scans" looking through large portions of users' directories and/or file systems.") Secondly the internal behavior of every AC is closely guarded due to minimize the chances of itself being hooked into, no one knows exactly how each individually operates except their programmers, so I will not be arguing about which is better or worse, as no one here knows.
Oh noes, the AC is scanning my hard disk!! Whatever shall I do ? AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH
Oh wait, THAT'S ITS FUCKING JOB.
Believe me, they don't care about your hidden fat-hairy-girls-xxx folder. Obviously every AC behaves differently, some scanning things/places that others ignore. They just want to catch/ban as many cheaters as possible, thus making a better gaming environment for the very people here who whine about them the most.
Oh noes, the AC is scanning my hard disk!! Whatever shall I do ?
AAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHH
Oh wait, THAT'S ITS FUCKING JOB.
Believe me, they don't care about your hidden fat-hairy-girls-xxx folder. Obviously every AC behaves differently, some scanning things/places that others ignore. They just want to catch/ban as many cheaters as possible, thus making a better gaming environment for the very people here who whine about them the most.
Punkbuster isn't running on my machine:
Oh no I'm so scared they will see my porn, boohoo you're soooo right, that could be the only reason why I dont want people to have free access to scan my drive for whatever they please.
It's simple, using the argument that you would only care about people looking through your machine is if you have something to hide (porn, warez etc) is so completely stupid that anyone using it should really just be instantly banned from the forum for being such an irritating fool.
I have plenty of perfectly legal things on my PC which I dont want people to read, full stop, it's my gaming rig, my work rig, it's actually a secuirty risk for me since I have work on my machine for my job, I have personal information I don't want people to be able to read, not to mention media stored on my PC which I am legally bound by NDA not to make available to other people, if any of that could be read at any time then that is a MASSIVE security problem.
Irrelevent of whether or not they actually have the capability to scan your system and send data back to them, they're asking you to sign away your right to be able to protect your own data.
Many of the games I play want to install punkbuster and I refuse everytime and if I can't play online without using it then I won't play online. If after some investigation it turns out WAR uses some form of intergrated punkbuster which expects me to agree to allow that kind of privacy vilolation then i'll end my sub and uninstall it.
*edit*
re-did screenshot because old one didnt show all processes
Vermillion
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2007
- Messages
- 4,416
Vermillion that has been covered in this thread already in #27. ("Furthermore, our software will not perform "hard disk scans" looking through large portions of users' directories and/or file systems.") Secondly the internal behavior of every AC is closely guarded due to minimize the chances of itself being hooked into, no one knows exactly how each individually operates except their programmers, so I will not be arguing about which is better or worse, as no one here knows.
Oh noes, the AC is scanning my hard disk!! Whatever shall I do ?
Oh wait, THAT'S ITS FUCKING JOB.
Believe me, they don't care about your hidden fat-hairy-girls-xxx folder. Obviously every AC behaves differently, some scanning things/places that others ignore. They just want to catch/ban as many cheaters as possible, thus making a better gaming environment for the very people here who whine about them the most.
Actually if you read the Even Balance Privacy Policy from post #27 it contradicts the EULA for the Quake Live beta.
You can call it tin-foil wearing or whatever you want but I'm just stating facts. Plus is you give somebody an inch they'll take a mile whenever they can.
Oh and you can keep thinking that we don't know what Warden AC, VAC, PB and other anti-cheats do.
Frostex...it's built into the game
http://herald.warhammeronline.com/warherald/NewsArticle.war?id=153
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PunkBuster
- Status