Small Case - NEW project

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mattinv

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
473
Good morning all,
This is a new project I'm working on right now. The objective is to design a case compatible with a MicroATX board (which can accommodate crossfire, plenty of DDR/HDD/…) while being as compact as possible. It should be transportable if possible = light. And rugged so that it would resist a minimum of handling (avoid very light/thin aluminum).
The constrains are the following:
- Be able to fit a ATX power supply / Full ATX possibly (6.5inch max in length in its current form)
- Be able to fit a long video card (HD 4870 / GTX 280)
- Be able to fit most of the high end heat sink available today
- Have at least 1 5.25" bay
- Have at least 2 3.5" bay
- Good ventilation for CPU, DDR, HDD, GPU - no overheating
- Nice smooth design

Right now, the case is as follow:
Dimension:
NEW PROJECT CASE 14.6” x 11.1” x 7.9” (1280 cub. Inch.)
Here are some comparison
Thermaltake LANBOX Lite VF6000BNS : 17.0'' x 11.8'' x 9.1'' (1825 cub. Inch.)
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133045)
Thermaltake VF1000BWS Black Aluminum Front Panel : 11.8'' x 17'' x 11'' (2206 cub. Inch.)
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811133035)
Apevia X-Qpack : 13.8” x 11.2” x 9” (1391 cub. Inch.)
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811144162)
Siverstone Sugo SG02 : 15.5” x 10.6” x 8.4” (1380 cub. Inch.)
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811163112)
Shuttle Prima XPC SX48P2 : 12.8” x 8.7” x 8.3” (924 cub. Inch.)
(http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856101072&Tpk=Shuttle Prima XPC SX48P2)

So it’s 8 to 72% smaller than most regular lanbox but it’s still 38% bigger than a Shuttle (quite a bit). It is interesting to notice that it is not as high as the Shuttle but wider (MATX motherboard size – 9.64” x 9.64”) and a bit longer.
That being said, here is how it compares to the other cases:
Upside
- You can fit almost any size ATX PSU. None of the others can.
- You can fit 1/2 video card up to 12 Inch. (with the DFI LANPARTY JR P45-T2RS (http://www.dfi.com.tw/portal/CM/cmp...g=false&action=e&windowstate=normal&mode=view), you can actually have a nice crossfire setup).
- You can fit a heatsink as high as 7 Inch (180 mm - XIGMATEK HDT-S1283, Tuniq tower for exemple). None of the others can.
- You can put 2 120mm fans, 1 in the back, 1 over the video card. Plus optional fans over hard drives, possibly RAM. Most of the other cases don’t even have a 120mm fan.
- You have a good looking sturdy case. I went for a Lian-Li look. Nice 1/16” brushed aluminum, solid motherboard tray. This is subjective, so I’ll let you judge.
Downside: Only 1 5.25" bay. Instead of 2 for most of the other cases.

I will post some CAD drawings to give you an idea of what it looks like.
I’ll wait for your advices before I move forward with the project.
I also want to know if people would be interested in such a case and what else they'd like to see/have.

Thanks,
Matt

UPDATE - Size comparison "chart"
casecomparison.jpg
 
First, a 3D ISO view of the all case. The right side will stay open for air flow.
The finish is a brushed aluminum.
isoview.jpg

The back view.
backview.jpg

I can't show much more, but this kind of give you an idea.
 
I love new innovation, and ideas.

Where is PSU?

I would like to know the air flow direction.
 
The PSU is sitting in front. Air sucked from the front, released from the side. I can't give too much details right now, but it is positioned next to the HDD cage (which can be partially seen on the right side).
Right now, the air flow is as follow.
120 mm fan in the back -> intake
80 mm & 40 mm fan on right side -> intake
120 mm fan on top -> exhaust

Fan opening in front to be mounted by users as needed.
airflow.jpg
 
Intel's stock cooler doesn't blow air out, you will need a side fan to actually have an effect. 40mm fans don't do anything.
 
Enough to destroy a tank or sink a battleship, yes then maybe your 40mm can push some air. Otherwise for the rest of us civilians with no access to such awesomely lethal tech, we're stuck with 40mms that are just there to catch dust.
 
The stock Intel cooler is just there to give an idea of the position of the cooler.
As for the air flow, there are quite a bit of coolers that pushes air out on the side. Should I put a Xigmatek S1283 on the CAD drawing instead:p?

I'll refer you to this setting and on this thread: http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1337296&highlight=DFI+LANPARTY+P45-T2RS
IMG_0015copier.jpg


The 40mm fan is optional. And I have to agree, not very usefull, but it it looks SO nice when full of dust:cool:.
Should I consider replacing the 40mm fan and the 80mm fan with 2 60 mm fan instead? Or maybe 2 80mm if it fits?
 
Cooler exhaust isn't exactly an exhaust - it needs something to draw the hot air out; otherwise we wouldn't need exhaust fans in all of our cases. Only if you are running a high RPM fan would you be able to feel air at the back of a heatsink.

Why do you need a ram cooler anyways? Ram doesn't get hot, and certainly not anywhere to the point of worrying; I've had no airflow to my 4 sticks of ram on my last 3 builds/cases.
 
I guess I don't need one personally but some do:

IMG_0052copier.jpg


It is not visible on the CAD drawing but I believe that you can actually mount the fan like it is on the picture. Or put one sideways...

The objective of this case is to cover the largest amount of users. Of course, most of us won't need a cooler on the RAM, but you'll always find some that do. Considering that I put extra care to make sure you can fit the most efficient air cooler on the market right now, I want to make sure the case will appeal to extreme overclocker if possible.

All the possible fan positions are not shown in the previous drawing, but I'm curious about what you guys would recommend for airflow keeping in mind that the PSU is in front, partially blocking a potential airflow.
 
The only ones needing a fan on their ram are the ones pushing their FSBs to like 600. Heat from graphics card (your exhaust isn't going to capture all of a card's heat) and NB will transfer to your inside facing CPU fan - bad; pvhk can have his facing inside because his system is open-aired. Your best bet is to take some cues from the Qmicra that pulls air in from the side with no active intake in the front.
 
What about changing the airflow like in the Qmicra case and having the 120mm fan in the back push air out? The air would come from the side opening and blow sideways.
As for the front of the case, there is not real active intake. It's the PSU that pulls the air in and blows it sideways.
 
I'm talking about the Qmicra's design- it has vents in front but is not made to have fans mount. The 120mm fan in the Qmicra is the exhaust..... Side is intake rear is outtake.
 
I understand.

Check this setting out.
airflow2.jpg


The front of the case is a grill (hard to see on the picture). 1 Fan (80mm - optional) can be mounted on the left side to push air on the video card.
This time, the 120mm fan in the back is the exhaust. Side is intake (side vents are optional). Rear is outake.
I like the second 120mm fan over the GPU for crossfire settings.
Better now?
 
Not sure what the innards look like but can the PSU intake fan be pointed inwards to suck out out? 1. Can help with innards cooling, 2. less vents less dust. Is the GPU side of the box holed up to intake air too? If not that's something to consider since you're getting no air to the video cards, and the recent slew of cards are nothing but a mini-oven.
 
For the PSU, this is the ONLY way you can make it work. Also, most PSU are rate at 25C, so it might reduce the PSU life expectancy if you suck air from within the case (which can be closer to 30C, depending of where).
The PSU has a 120mm fan (intake) that sucks the air in and releases it on the holed wall (generally where the plug and switches are - right side of the case on this CAD drawing).
There is a hole for a 80mm fan (optional) on the GPU side to let/push air in (in front).
I haven't holed up the left side of the case yet. The double slot card suck air at the end of the card generally, which is almost the front of the case. So I was thinking I could put a fan there to push some fresh air in right there.
I'll post a better picture of the front. It is hard to see but the first 6" from the bottom is a grill.
 
Danny,
This is interesting. But... :
- The case I'm designing must fit full size ATX PSU
- The case must fit third party heatsink much bigger/taller than Intel stock cooler. The PSU cannot be on top of the CPU. This eliminate a lot of possibilities.
- You must be able to have a Crossfire set up. What's the point of having a full ATX PSU otherwise.
In terms of case size, here is the difference:
Antec NSK1380 Black 1105 cubic Inch. VS "Prototype" 1280 cubic Inch..
That's roughly a 16% difference in volume, not enough to justify the loss of all the above.

I could reduce the size of the case furthermore with a different setup but I would lose 1 3.5" bay (compared to 2 right now). And I want to keep 2 3.5" bay to allow for RAID0 set up.
 
The SG01 has one of the better GPU cooling solutions - dedicated GPU intake in front exhaust at back. Dual slot exhaust coolers are only part of what is offered for GPU cooling - there are the 1 slots, then the 2 slots like the S1, Musashi, Trad, DualOrb, Hr01 etc. that don't exhaust air out. Also looks as if the power cord is gonna be sticking out of the side :X

mattinv said:
Danny,
This is interesting. But... :
- The case I'm designing must fit full size ATX PSU
- The case must fit third party heatsink much bigger/taller than Intel stock cooler. The PSU cannot be on top of the CPU. This eliminate a lot of possibilities.
- You must be able to have a Crossfire set up. What's the point of having a full ATX PSU otherwise.
In terms of case size, here is the difference:
Antec NSK1380 Black 1105 cubic Inch. VS "Prototype" 1280 cubic Inch..
That's roughly a 16% difference in volume, not enough to justify the loss of all the above.

I could reduce the size of the case furthermore with a different setup but I would lose 1 3.5" bay (compared to 2 right now). And I want to keep 2 3.5" bay to allow for RAID0 set up.
Click to expand...
- That CM 520w PSU is full size
- Why can't the PSU be on top anyways? NZXT Rogue doesn't have the PSU on top and it can fit a S1283.
- Full atx PSU =/= dual card... The cases offered in the SFF arena isn't GPU limited, the boards however are.
 
Lowteckh, right now, this is the way it is set up for the prototype.
Dedicated 80mm optional fan for GPU in front. And dedicated 120mm fan, on top, near back.
For the cord, I'm going with an angled one (90deg). There is very little clearance, I have to admit. I did some measurement but it will have to be adjusted.
In my setup, I have a 4850 with Zerotherm cooler. No exhaust on the back, it's very bad. It keeps one part of the case nice and toasty.
That's why I put the 120mm fan on top for the prototype: to exhaust warm air for this type of setting while keeping noise level down (120mm are less noisy than 80mm for same airflow).
 
Which is why I say it's imperative for GPU air intake (and not just optional); an exhaust-only set up wouldn't cut it (28% fan for both of my 4850s with intake, becomes ~40% fan on inner card with no intake).
 
I have 2 more questions before I finalize the project.
- Would people like it better if the case was shorter but required a slim DVD drive?
- Do you prefer a case with a satin aluminum smooth finish or a glossy finish? Or something else?
 
The less you mess with people's hardware the more appealing it is. Same with standards, use what is most common and don't try to be special. mATXs are constrained enough, we don't need to be wrapped in even tighter handcuffs.

Not a fan of gloss; brushed aluminum is steamy.
 
lowteckh said:
The SG01 has one of the better GPU cooling solutions - dedicated GPU intake in front exhaust at back. Dual slot exhaust coolers are only part of what is offered for GPU cooling - there are the 1 slots, then the 2 slots like the S1, Musashi, Trad, DualOrb, Hr01 etc. that don't exhaust air out. Also looks as if the power cord is gonna be sticking out of the side :X


- That CM 520w PSU is full size
- Why can't the PSU be on top anyways? NZXT Rogue doesn't have the PSU on top and it can fit a S1283.
- Full atx PSU =/= dual card... The cases offered in the SFF arena isn't GPU limited, the boards however are.
Click to expand...

Ok, here is the main difference:

NZXT 16.6" x 10.9" x 14.5" => 2624 Cubic Inch vs Prototype: 1280 cubic Inch, which is 105% more volume.
With the PSU over the GPU (NZXT.Qpack setting, you increase the height of the case by at least 2.5 Inch. That explains why the NZXT is 10.9" high (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811146043).
If the PSU is over the CPU, then game over. Only short HTPC cooler.
When the PSU is over the CPU/GPU, it forces you to increase the lengh of the case because the PSU + 5.25" drive + cables must fit into the length (depth) of the case.

The objective is still:
- To have the most compact case so that you can carry it around or put it in a small space.
- To offer a case widely compatible with the equipment you find out there.
 
lowteckh said:
The less you mess with people's hardware the more appealing it is. Same with standards, use what is most common and don't try to be special. mATXs are constrained enough, we don't need to be wrapped in even tighter handcuffs.

Not a fan of gloss; brushed aluminum is steamy.
Click to expand...

I like brushed aluminum too the best.

As far as tight space, I think that the airflow is fairly good. I'm worried about space for cables.
Although a modular PSU suppresses the extra cable and free tons of space.
For the 5.25" bay, I was asking because one of the first design I worked on was VERY similar to this:
sugo2jm9.jpg



8.6 inch x 10.9 inch x 6.9 inch => 646 cub. Inch. Not bad.
I know the prototype (Micro ATX) could be reduced to 14.6" x 11.1" x 6.9" => 1118 cubic Inch by going to a slim drive.

And we finally decided it was not in our best interest to adopt a slim drive slot as it would increase assembly cost, especially for people who would like a Blue Ray drive in it :cool: (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827118010).
 
I have tried building a number of custom mATX cases and always had a problem with the size and location of the PSU. I solved the problem in 2 ways:

1. Take the PSU apart and change the size of the enclosure - I moved and replaced the fans and split the AC power jack from the rest of the PSU. This allowed me to mod the PSU to nearly the size of 2 x 3.5" drives.

2. Use a 2U PSU instead of a ATX one. The 2U is easier to tuck away.

mATX cases are not designed to handle high end parts...
 
lowteckh said:
What's low end about many of our systems?
Click to expand...

The problem is that we as users want to put high end components in mATX cases - but the case designers force us to make compromises. Just look at how many threads here ask: "Can I fit...". I am not saying that people do not have high end systems in small cases, I am saying that it is HARD to fit a high end system in a mATX case, that is why we see so many modifications in this form factor.
One thing that you will not see in a mATX case is a large tower heatsink, although I am sure that many people here would LOVE to put one in their mATX case. I ended up using watercooling in a mATX case in order to effectively cool my CPU because I could not fit a large enough heatsink on it.
In a way the lack of "The perfect mATX case" makes people very creative in creating their own solutions, but not everyone wants (or can) go to great lengths to create a case that suits their needs.
My latest project is a heavily modified milk crate :p with a bottom chamber containing a full size ATX PSU, a 5.25" ODD and a 3.5" HDD. The top chamber has picoBTX mobo and a 8800GTS connected with a flexible 16x PCI-e extender.
 
Dunno which SFF cases you played with but there are some out there that can handle full tower HSFs, HSFs that perform well, and/or dual slot GPUs, etc. 1. Sugo series, 2. V350, 3. Qmicra, 4. NZXT Rogue, 5. maybe the qpack? Dunno what else I'm missing. Case selection from upper tier companies suck, but the cases aren't that sucky. You also don't need a full tower HSF to achieve high clocks if that's something you have in mind. But to say we have to mod our cases to accommodate high end gear is very untrue.
 
PurpleDiamond said:
The problem is that we as users want to put high end components in mATX cases - but the case designers force us to make compromises. Just look at how many threads here ask: "Can I fit...". I am not saying that people do not have high end systems in small cases, I am saying that it is HARD to fit a high end system in a mATX case, that is why we see so many modifications in this form factor.
One thing that you will not see in a mATX case is a large tower heatsink, although I am sure that many people here would LOVE to put one in their mATX case. I ended up using watercooling in a mATX case in order to effectively cool my CPU because I could not fit a large enough heatsink on it.
In a way the lack of "The perfect mATX case" makes people very creative in creating their own solutions, but not everyone wants (or can) go to great lengths to create a case that suits their needs.
Click to expand...

This prototype is there to solve this particular problem.
I don't think there is anything on the market today that accommodates a crossfire setting plus a RAID0 setting plus a Full heights heatsink plus a full size ATX PSU, IN LESS THAN 1300 CUBIC INCHES.
The lack of perfect mATX case does make people creative but even this prototype is not perfect. You can always find ways to make it smaller. We did make the enclosure as small as 740 cubic inches at one point, but we had to force the users to compromise.
So we finally decided to go a bit bigger and give high end users what they'd like.
Could you post a picture of your milk crate tower?

I'm going to post a picture to show you how it compares with other cases cited previously;).
 
lowteckh said:
Dunno which SFF cases you played with but there are some out there that can handle full tower HSFs, HSFs that perform well, and/or dual slot GPUs, etc. 1. Sugo series, 2. V350, 3. Qmicra, 4. NZXT Rogue, 5. maybe the qpack? Dunno what else I'm missing. Case selection from upper tier companies suck, but the cases aren't that sucky. You also don't need a full tower HSF to achieve high clocks if that's something you have in mind. But to say we have to mod our cases to accommodate high end gear is very untrue.
Click to expand...

Sugo series: the SG02/SG01 do not support full tower HSF. PSU over the heatsink, only a few inches of clearance.
Qpack: I have one. You can mod it and cut some stuff out, and then only, you might be able to put a full size tower. You certainly canNOT fit a full size ATX PSU and a DVD drive for exemple.
NZXT: you probably can fit some full tower (but their orientation is limited I believe, they would bump into the PSU). As far as having a full size PSU in it, hard to tell if it would fit or not with the 5.25" drive, length wise.
Qmicra: You can fit most of the full tower HSF, and a full ATX PSU no doubt. But you might as well by a full ATX tower. This thing is huge.
 
I did not say they all full tower HSFs, and the post was directed at PurpleDiamond. It's such an irritatingly misinformed cliche to say that SFF can't compare at all to ATX towers (and I haven't included the likes of the SG03, P180 mini and others) without modding.

1. SG01 and 02's NT06 Lite combo can achieve fairly high clocks and still maintain a safe temp. With something like a 8700NT with active cooling it may even do better. Of course not near a tower HSF with active cooling.
2. All SFF cases are orientation limited by the case and motherboard, but so are some ATX towers. With HSFs like S1283, you're not going to be mounting them front to back unless you stretch the width of the case because they will extend from the edge of the mobo (esp the DFI)
3. You shouldn't compare the Qmicra to a full tower, they are completely different beasts.
DSC00300_2cba9.Large.jpg
SANY0559_1695a.Large.jpg


Not sure if you've seen this but it looks like what you're trying to do:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1313322
 
lowteckh said:
Not sure if you've seen this but it looks like what you're trying to do:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1313322
Click to expand...

Very interesting. But
1. no more 5.25" bay if I'm not mistaking. That's a big compromise if you ask me. Too much, very few people would be interested.
2. No crossfire set up possible. The HDD is in the way.

Otherwise, yes, this is the general idea. He is removing the PSU from the over the heatsink and free the space for a full size HSF. But he still couldn't fit a full size PSU I think. It would run into the heatsink (I ran into this problem in the earlier conception stage). And the airflow is not the best, as you mentioned previously. It is either pushing the CPU it in direction of the NB / GPU or pulling it from the GPU (back of the board) and NB.

I put a little size comparison together for all of you so that you can compare the size of the prototype to the rest of the cases we talked about so far.

casecomparison.jpg

(prototype in black)

With that in mind, how do you think the prototype compares knowing that you still can:
- fit any mATX motherboard
- fit a full size PSU
- fit a full size HSF
- fit a crossfire setup of 12" long board
- fit a RAID0 of HDD
- fit 1 5.25" drive
All at once.

What would you guys call this little beast?
I'm thinking I should organize a small "naming" competition and the one that wins will get a free case when the project arrives to completion!
 
lowteckh said:
I did not say they all full tower HSFs, and the post was directed at PurpleDiamond. It's such an irritatingly misinformed cliche to say that SFF can't compare at all to ATX towers (and I haven't included the likes of the SG03, P180 mini and others) without modding.

1. SG01 and 02's NT06 Lite combo can achieve fairly high clocks and still maintain a safe temp. With something like a 8700NT with active cooling it may even do better. Of course not near a tower HSF with active cooling.
2. All SFF cases are orientation limited by the case and motherboard, but so are some ATX towers. With HSFs like S1283, you're not going to be mounting them front to back unless you stretch the width of the case because they will extend from the edge of the mobo (esp the DFI)
3. You shouldn't compare the Qmicra to a full tower, they are completely different beasts.

Not sure if you've seen this but it looks like what you're trying to do:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1313322
Click to expand...

Dude, chill out. It seems that you are getting rather upset over a very small issue. I am saying that IMHO the perfect SFF case does not currently exist - all cases have made some compromise that I am unhappy with.

The QMicra for example can pretty much handle all of the components that you will ever need in a SFF but it is pretty big for a SFF and I still can't understand why the PSU is above the heatsink.
The QPack has the PSU above the video card, but the internal structure of the case prevents you from putting a tower heatsink unless you start modding the case.
The Rogue is almost too big to be considered a SFF.
Another design flaw is that all the SFF cases that I have seen that have a removable mobo tray, have the rear fan on the chassis and not on the tray, so you cannot install the HSF on the mobo and then slide the entire setup in.

To me the whole idea of this thread is to share ideas among modders and maybe get the case manufaturers to respond to the requests of users and create new and improved designs.

Edit: a SFF that can accomodate a lot of stuff - the "Compressor" ;)
 
mattinv said:
Qpack: I have one. You can mod it and cut some stuff out, and then only, you might be able to put a full size tower. You certainly canNOT fit a full size ATX PSU and a DVD drive for exemple.
NZXT: you probably can fit some full tower (but their orientation is limited I believe, they would bump into the PSU). As far as having a full size PSU in it, hard to tell if it would fit or not with the 5.25" drive, length wise.
.
Click to expand...

the interior layout for the NZXT Rogue (as well as the Raidmax IceCube) is more or less identical to the QPack with the exception of the internal brace above the heat sink fan and a second hard drive cage. Both will fit full size ATX PSUs with a DVD drive in place.

Were you referring to 1200 watt PSUs ? Have you thought about a 5.25" bay PSU to power the crossfire set up mounted under a slim DVD drive?

I also wanted to bring the AOpen G325 / 326 to your attention:

7.jpg


the power supply is mounted to the back of the case like a back pack. Here is the internal layout:

10.jpg
11.jpg
 
When you put the PSU in front of the case, but you still want the Power Plug that plugs into your wall in the back of the case, what is the best way to go about doing this? Is there a converter? Or an extension you can buy?
 
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