EA boycotts

So i was reading the Ars review of Dead Space, arguably the first EA title thats *shock* is a new IP. And the developer *shock AND disbelief* were give a free hand to develop.

But i digress, the last line of the review lists the Ugly : the EA boycott.
We did talk about it here, Spore and Mass Effect played into it.

I did a quick search on the web, and there are a few boycott petitions out there, but not as many as i would have thought. How many [H]ard members are boycotting?

While i'm not really boycotting, i am because i can find better things to spend my money on than publishers that really put barriers to legitimate users... like say Sam & Max season 2, Multiwinia, or even Fallout 3.

I'm currently 'boycotting' I guess. Besides the DRM'd games I won't touch EA isn't really putting out much I am really interested in so it's not hard.

Dead Space and Mirror's Edge do look great though. If they get the install limit DRM I won't get them even if they are on console.

Megalomaniac said:

like say Sam & Max season 2, Multiwinia, or even Fallout 3.

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Yeah, I was thinking about getting Dead Space, until I realized Sam & Max was pretty much the same thing.

well im boycotting any game with DRM/install limit

I've been on a boycott since earth and beyond got shit canned.

My question to the "boycotters:"

Do you mean ACTUALLY boycott, like in the sense that you refuse to purchase (and therefore play) the game? Or do you mean, pirate?

I have the distinct feeling that a lot of these 15-year-olds going on about "boycotting" are just going to be pirating it. Boys of honor in dens of thieves.

finalgt said:

My question to the "boycotters:"

Do you mean ACTUALLY boycott, like in the sense that you refuse to purchase (and therefore play) the game? Or do you mean, pirate?

I have the distinct feeling that a lot of these 15-year-olds going on about "boycotting" are just going to be pirating it. Boys of honor in dens of thieves.

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For me, I'm boycotting install limits. This has now extended to Ubisoft and FarCry 2 so it's not just an EA boycott anymore.

If Mirror's Edge comes out without install limits I'm all over that like a fat kid on a cup cake, but if it does have an install limit, then I just won't play it. Dead Space looks good but I am a wuss when it comes to scary games so I can skip it if it does have install limits.

I have a conflict of interest because I like that EA is making new IPs and really want to support the new games but the DRM is a deal breaker.

I highly doubt everyone will boycott everything EA puts out which most likely won't hurt them as many of their up and coming titles will be multi-platform anyways. Its just another reason to skip focus on developing for the PC and just continue to make shitty ports. But thats just my $0.02.

I'd like the boycott them on the single fact that Rock Band still isn't available in Australia.

No, I didn't leave out the '2' - I'm talking about the first one. The one that came out last year. 2007.

And I do mean "not purchase and therefore not play", since "refusal to buy" is now synonymous with "I'm gonna pirate".

finalgt said:

My question to the "boycotters:"

Do you mean ACTUALLY boycott, like in the sense that you refuse to purchase (and therefore play) the game? Or do you mean, pirate?

I have the distinct feeling that a lot of these 15-year-olds going on about "boycotting" are just going to be pirating it. Boys of honor in dens of thieves.

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for me boycott = no buy no play. period.

I won't be boycotting. Primarily because regardless of how we react we still get screwed. If we boycott sales will drop while piracy will continue unchanged. If we purchase then they will continue with DRM. In the end I will enjoy games as they are.

finalgt said:

My question to the "boycotters:"

Do you mean ACTUALLY boycott, like in the sense that you refuse to purchase (and therefore play) the game? Or do you mean, pirate?

I have the distinct feeling that a lot of these 15-year-olds going on about "boycotting" are just going to be pirating it. Boys of honor in dens of thieves.

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What do you think? Consumer is faced with the "tough" situation of choosing to support the developer that essentially rents them the game for $50, or just download it and avoid the DRM?

In my opinion it is perfectly ethical to pirate a game that doesn't have its DRM terms (activation limits, etc) on the outside of the box. I think it is a great idea to pirate a game from a company that lets the consumer open the package before they realize they just rented the game instead of buying it. What do you call it when you buy a game and only when you have opened it and can't return it do you find out that it has terms that contradict the sale of the product?

jonneymendoza said:

well im boycotting any game with DRM/install limit

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same

Dethred said:

What do you think? Consumer is faced with the "tough" situation of choosing to support the developer that essentially rents them the game for $50, or just download it and avoid the DRM?

In my opinion it is perfectly ethical to pirate a game that doesn't have its DRM terms (activation limits, etc) on the outside of the box. I think it is a great idea to pirate a game from a company that lets the consumer open the package before they realize they just rented the game instead of buying it.

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You are rationalizing. Pirating is wrong, no if-s, and-s, or but-s. One reason why I don't give much credence to the anti-DRM crowd is that most of them are simply using DRM as an excuse to justify their acts of thief.

Dethred said:

What do you think? Consumer is faced with the "tough" situation of choosing to support the developer that essentially rents them the game for $50, or just download it and avoid the DRM?

In my opinion it is perfectly ethical to pirate a game that doesn't have its DRM terms (activation limits, etc) on the outside of the box. I think it is a great idea to pirate a game from a company that lets the consumer open the package before they realize they just rented the game instead of buying it. What do you call it when you buy a game and only when you have opened it and can't return it do you find out that it has terms that contradict the sale of the product?

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No, that's not what "ethical" means. What you just described is "rational," not "ethical."

You realize that continuing to download to spite developers isn't going to magically make them go, "Oh shit! This isn't working! Let's remove all of our counter-piracy measures." No reasonable business would do that. Might as well forego the inevitable "...but, Sins of a Solar Empire...!" argument in advance, because I'm talking about companies with prior losses attributable to piracy.

By pirating games for having DRM and just generally acting like a 2nd grader ("But he started it!") you're not making the situation better. You're not making a statement. You're not being noble. You're:

a. Making companies think DRM isn't invasive enough yet
b. Making DRM worse
c. Screwing those of who know what an ACTUAL boycott is and who rely on ACTUAL ethics over.

P.S. Your example of not being able to return opened software upon finding out you don't agree with the terms of the EULA (which I only accept as a valid argument in the first base on general theoretical grounds, since I sincerely doubt any person on this forum goes to buy a game without being made aware of its DRM limitations prior) is an argument against the retailer, not the developer or publisher. And saying that pirating it is ethical dissent against the developer/publisher is the equivalent of saying that stealing it is ethical dissent against the retailer. Which, of course, you wouldn't agree with, because you're being noble, of course! Yes, that's it! It's noble ethics that causes people to pirate instead of boycott! Thieves are just cheap.

I don't really see the big deal with DRM. How many times can a person install a game in a short period of time? Even if they do pass the limit, they can always call and get another activation.

As for what if the company stops supporting the game - a patch will most likely be released that gets rid of the activation.

GlimmerMan said:

You are rationalizing. Pirating is wrong, no if-s, and-s, or but-s. One reason why I don't give much credence to the anti-DRM crowd is that most of them are simply using DRM as an excuse to justify their acts of thief.

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acts of thievery!

finalgt said:

Might as well forego the inevitable "...but, Sins of a Solar Empire...!" argument in advance, because I'm talking about companies with prior losses attributable to piracy.

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Why do you only use agruements when they are convinient to you. I am sure that Sins of a Solar Empire has been pirated, so therefore the company has losses to pirates. You can defend these companies to death if you wish, but you simply choose to ignore other arguements.

Here is an easy one, if PC gamers are all cold bastard pirates, how is Diablo 2, a game several years old, still managing to crack top 10 sales charts? It has been pirated to all hell, has minimal copy protection, there are tons of privat bnet servers out there, yet it still sells. Quality products = sales. Basic business knowledge. Keep your customers happy and they will keep you employed.

If EA, Ubisoft, Epic, whoever wants to abandon PC games, good riddance. There are a ton of developers lining up to fill the demand for PC games.

GlimmerMan said:

You are rationalizing. Pirating is wrong, no if-s, and-s, or but-s. One reason why I don't give much credence to the anti-DRM crowd is that most of them are simply using DRM as an excuse to justify their acts of thief.

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there is a good chunk of the antidrm crew that buy the game but they do turn around and pirate it to get around the part they don't like.

demingo said:

Why do you only use agruements when they are convinient to you. I am sure that Sins of a Solar Empire has been pirated, so therefore the company has losses to pirates. You can defend these companies to death if you wish, but you simply choose to ignore other arguements.

Here is an easy one, if PC gamers are all cold bastard pirates, how is Diablo 2, a game several years old, still managing to crack top 10 sales charts? It has been pirated to all hell, has minimal copy protection, there are tons of privat bnet servers out there, yet it still sells. Quality products = sales. Basic business knowledge. Keep your customers happy and they will keep you employed.

If EA, Ubisoft, Epic, whoever wants to abandon PC games, good riddance. There are a ton of developers lining up to fill the demand for PC games.

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Yet there are not a ton of developers that are going to see big profits like Blizzard and they'll eventually pull out.

Your diablo2 comment is entertaining to me. If you were talking about the music industry instead of the gaming industry, it might be translated to something like this:

Britney spears is selling lots of records despite piracy and shes making millions, therefore piracy is irrelevant in the music market and the contemporary music scene is in great shape!

Is that what you believe?

Killing people is wrong. Unless you're killing people who killed other people first.

Screwing people over is wrong, unless they've screwed people over first?

Works for the legal system, works for me.

/end troll

Prior Losses.

Prior. Meaning previous.

Sins of a Solar Empire is Ironclad's first game. It wasn't extremely well-funded, nor well-promoted. I can't say that I know they didn't have the budget to implement DRM, but I wouldn't be surprised. A small newcomer studio basically decided to rely on word of mouth to promote their game by foregoing DRM (because the delta between potential sales and actual sales for games with extremely little marketing is much, MUCH smaller than for those with, say, the marketing budget of Halo 3) and it basically became the go-to argument for people who have absolutely no idea how to quantify any business concepts whatsoever.

If you're going to think you can settle the whole thing by saying vaguely that Diablo 2 is "still managing to crack top 10 sales charts (p.s. um, source? It wasn't even in the top 30 back in January)" then why can't I do the same by saying that Spore is, too?

That's the problem. Too many people waxing eloquent on complex business issues with only basic business knowledge. It's slightly more complicated than just, "Build it and they will come."

GlimmerMan said:

You are rationalizing. Pirating is wrong, no if-s, and-s, or but-s. One reason why I don't give much credence to the anti-DRM crowd is that most of them are simply using DRM as an excuse to justify their acts of thief.

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I dont think anyone is in a position to claim if "most" people are using it as an excuse or not, I certianly buy plenty of games and everyone I know who has pirated games also buys quite a significant amount of games, I have standards though which I stick to, I know other gamers do as well. Finally piracy isn't theft, we're entering morality/ethics here and in the posts below and its important to note that piracy absolutely 100% is NOT theft.

finalgt said:

No, that's not what "ethical" means. What you just described is "rational," not "ethical."

You realize that continuing to download to spite developers isn't going to magically make them go, "Oh shit! This isn't working! Let's remove all of our counter-piracy measures." No reasonable business would do that. Might as well forego the inevitable "...but, Sins of a Solar Empire...!" argument in advance, because I'm talking about companies with prior losses attributable to piracy.

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That's highly debateable, I personally think that it's a learning curve and they're not yet convinved that DRM is a dead end (which it is). There will be an apex to this curve of stupidity, at a certain point they're going to realise that lost sales due to DRM is a tangible loss they could avoid and stop pushing so hard with DRM and either remove it all together or trim it right back down to the unintrusive CD key type activations.

Unfortunately they dont appear to be smart enough to predict this and simply skip it, the same way that theres some things a child will never understand (until they do it, suffer, and learn from it), it appears we'll have to wait out the period of maturity where publishers realise that it's not working and eventually learn etc...

By pirating games for having DRM and just generally acting like a 2nd grader ("But he started it!") you're not making the situation better. You're not making a statement. You're not being noble. You're:

a. Making companies think DRM isn't invasive enough yet
b. Making DRM worse
c. Screwing those of who know what an ACTUAL boycott is and who rely on ACTUAL ethics over.

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I'd argue that actually the great majorety of people don't want to make a statement about DRM etc, it's probably not even worth our time to do so...

People (at least some) want DRM free games, if a company releases a game with DRM, the users have the very realistic choice of pirating the game and never getting caught, or buying the game. But why would anyone pay for an inferiour product when they can get a superiour one for free? Thats the question the developers have to ask themselves.

And in actual fact the people here that "cry" about DRM are likely to be the people who would have otherwise bought the game. They are saying "look we want to buy the games...but theres DRM in there, and thats crap, so I'm not going to!"

That fact that some of you think that we need an excuse, reason, or justification to pirate games is absolutely laughable, we don't...the only reason people bring DRM up is to inform the developers/publishers that it's shit and it's putting us off buying their games.

Do you think people sit there thinking to themselves, "this torrent looks good, i think I'll grab that, but wait...I must hop over to hardocp to justify my actions before I do it"

RUBBISH, if you think that, you're a fool.

if my goal is merely to get a copy of the game without paying anything, why on earth would I then try and convince other people online that I wasn't going to buy it anyway, it makes zero sense.

TheCommander said:

I don't really see the big deal with DRM. How many times can a person install a game in a short period of time? Even if they do pass the limit, they can always call and get another activation.

As for what if the company stops supporting the game - a patch will most likely be released that gets rid of the activation.

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Ah the old - "it doesn't effect me now, so why does everyone else care" argument, this really shouldn't need explaining to anyone.

Actually as complicated as you wish to make it sound, you are only wasting your breath. It really is that simple. Sales histories prove it, so do basic laws of economics.

My source was the sales data released by NPD. But I won't convince you. I hope you enjoy your rented software. I will continue to do everything I can not to support these companies and urge others not to. It would be a happy day for me if EA declared bankrupcy.

Syndicated_Death said:

there is a good chunk of the antidrm crew that buy the game but they do turn around and pirate it to get around the part they don't like.

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Is it really considered 'piracy' if the downloader already purchased a license to play the game? Of course, nobody can tell how many downloads are 'legit' so everyone just assumes everyone is a pirate. Anyway, I haven't bought any recent EA games mostly due to DRM/authentication/activation. I've bought older EA games that lacked the draconian DRM though. Not like it's going to change anything; DRM is just going to get worse.

SockMan! said:

Is it really considered 'piracy' if the downloader already purchased a license to play the game? Of course, nobody can tell how many downloads are 'legit' so everyone just assumes everyone is a pirate. Anyway, I haven't bought any recent EA games mostly due to DRM/authentication/activation. I've bought older EA games that lacked the draconian DRM though. Not like it's going to change anything; DRM is just going to get worse.

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the publishers have no way of know if the tracker you're downloading is going to someone who has bought the game, thusly it's counted as a pirated download and will reflect so in the figures they use to justify the DRM they put in.

Really? It's unsurprising that you didn't want to give a link, because I've got a link that says that you're talking out of your ass.

NPD to withhold hardware sales numbers from media (Nov 6, 2007)

Most crushingly, the group says it will no longer release monthly console sales numbers and will only release the top five in software, rather than the top 10 we're used to.

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The most recent reference to the actual NPD PC game sales chart indexed by Google is September 21-27, 2008, which, amazingly enough, doesn't have Diablo 2 anywhere on it!

1. Spore
2. Warhammer Online: Age Of Reckoning
3. Civilization IV: Colonization
4. Crysis: Warhead
5. The Sims 2 Apartment Life
6. World Of Warcraft: Battle Chest
7. World Of Warcraft
8. The Sims 2 Double Deluxe
9. Lego Batman
10. World Of Warcraft: Burning Crusade

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(source)

Are you going to say you meant WoW, now?

What was your point again?

While I am not boycotting EA per say, I will not purchase a game with install limits. Lucky for me this does not apply to console games, since you don't install them. I do see fewer and fewer PC purchases in my future though.

DRM is fine as long as its not anoying as a paying customer. Which no longer seems to be the case.

Frostex said:

Finally piracy isn't theft, we're entering morality/ethics here and in the posts below and its important to note that piracy absolutely 100% is NOT theft.

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How is it not theft ? What a load of rationalizing horsehit.

Oh sorry, I was refering to weeks when Diablo snuck up on the sales charts this summer.

http://kotaku.com/5026103/npds-pc-sales-charts-june-29-+-july-6

Before you start talking again please take your head out of your ass. If you followed gaming at all you would have known diablo and warcraft (rts) had a sales spike around the blizzard wwi. But the again, those number must be made up as everyone who games on PC just pirates and overburdened DRM is the only way to stop it.

And before you say its no big deal that these games cracked top sales charts, just remember, they have been out for years, have already sold millions of units, and most importanly to this discussion, easily pirateable.

We're using games from the company that hosts its own fucking convention as a benchmark for the industry? Seriously?

Sam & Max Season 2? Someone explain.

Finalgt,

Why not? I thought the idea of running a business is to be successful. Now im supposed to feel sad and broken hearted cause someone fails at running a business? Fuck then, someone send me $40,000 cause my lemonade stand didnt make me enough money when I was 5.

Blizzard has very little DRM and have been insanely successful. If EA, Epic, whoever else want that kind of PC success then they should try to learn from blizzard and not cry about piracy.

It really seems like you have fundamental problem with the free market economy. I'm sorry, poor companies fail and go out of business. It's just the way it is. You can either keep your customers happy (aka Blizzard and massive sales records) or you can fail.

MrCoffee said:

Killing people is wrong. Unless you're killing people who killed other people first.

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Eventually there won't be anyone left to kill.


...And how true this is becoming in the PC industry.

Kangg said:

How is it not theft ? What a load of rationalizing horsehit.

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Because it doesn't fit the definiton of theft?

Piracy isn't stealing anything, it's copyright infingement, the fact that copyright law was invented to protect digital media (amongst other things) should be a clear indication of this.

Type "piracy is not theft" into google, theres nearly 2 million hits on that phrase now, some very good sites that will explain in detail.

demingo said:

Blizzard has very little DRM and have been insanely successful..

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Most of (maybe all?) Blizzard's games have required a CD key for online play, this goes for Diablo, Warcraft, Starcraft, World of Warcraft... So your point is moot.

Ooops! I forgot about the can of worms...

not downloading and not playing. But, life and work have not left much time to play.

I haven't even had time to play my favorites like CSS and TF2 in weeks.

I just (like 6 months ago) purchased all of heroes of might and magic 5, and i didnt even finish the original yet, and then i have the 2 expansions to go through.

But then again, im not one of those people *has to* play something... tomorrow there will be a better *something* to play. In the mean time, *today* life and work take priority.

bonsai said:

Most of (maybe all?) Blizzard's games have required a CD key for online play, this goes for Diablo, Warcraft, Starcraft, World of Warcraft... So your point is moot.

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His point is far from moot, he just phrased his post badly.

I don't think that theres many gamers that have an issue with entering a CD key, we expect a certain minimum level of anti piracy measures to stop "casual piracy" because it has no real effect on us.

Rather the common objection is to the more draconian anti-piracy which starts to cause issues for legitimate users while offering no additional protection against pirates, casual or not.

bonsai said:

Most of (maybe all?) Blizzard's games have required a CD key for online play, this goes for Diablo, Warcraft, Starcraft, World of Warcraft... So your point is moot.

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Do you fail at reading comprehension?

Very little does not mean none. Look it up in a dictionary. I love how people who support the corporations on this one love to avoid details like that.

Having to enter a CDKey you have during install is very different from having to activate each install, having limited activations, and having the game possibly shut off or need reactivation if you install new hardware. To compare the two is simply foolish beyond measure. Wow being the only exception as it is an MMO, and having to log in to play is expected for an online only game.

Too bad its not a perfect world and it would be impossible to find out, but I sometimes wonder what costs publishers more money... Piracy, or the cost of implimenting DRM.

demingo said:

Do you fail at reading comprehension?

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You're trying to argue that Blizzard's games still sell well because they are good games, despite lack of DRM. That is easily countered with saying they still sell well because they require a CD key to play the stuff still worth playing.

So no, you fail at reading comprehension.