US Scientists Prepare for LHC Debut

Terry Olaes

I Used to be the [H] News Guy
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We’re less than a week away from the end of the wo… I mean, the debut of the Large Hadron Collider, which is scheduled to begin test operations on 9/10. Fermilab’s much smaller collider, Tevatron, will likely be shutdown by 2010 at the latest. Their remote operations center has links to the LHC and scientists are excited by the possibilities, even though they are technically CERN's rivals.

Fermilab staffers are so enthused about the new collider that they're holding a pajama party in the remote operations center starting at 1:30 a.m. Wednesday to celebrate its inaugural test.
 
Warning to all meatbags! 790 says that a type 13 planet that usually destroys itself at its particular stage, either by war or by being unintentionally condensed into a pea sized object by scientists trying to find the mass of the Higgs Boson particle!


-that was a lexx reference, couldn't help myself, few people will understand :p
 
I work for fermilab, and i'm going to the pajama party. Dont know if im gonna sleep there or not...some of the physicists get a little rowdy. :D
 
Warning to all meatbags! 790 says that a type 13 planet that usually destroys itself at its particular stage, either by war or by being unintentionally condensed into a pea sized object by scientists trying to find the mass of the Higgs Boson particle!


-that was a lexx reference, couldn't help myself, few people will understand :p

Lexx remains one of the best, if majorly warped, scifi shows I've seen :D

Hmmmm, when a black hole consumes the world in a few days, will we end up in a parallel dimension and end up serving His Divine Shadow?
 
I wonder if they will be giving out free crowbars at the pajama party.
 
I work for fermilab, and i'm going to the pajama party. Dont know if im gonna sleep there or not...some of the physicists get a little rowdy. :D

What kind of wild antics do particle collider physicians dip in pray tell?
 
I work for fermilab, and i'm going to the pajama party. Dont know if im gonna sleep there or not...some of the physicists get a little rowdy. :D

Was there the obligatory memo passed around stating "There will be no whoring between company employees on premises.....that is all."
 
Wow the end of the world happens on my birthday. It is all about me after all :)
 
we'll know we're screwed when the diameter of the earth starts shrinking, and the earthquakes start.
It's insane to make black holes in the lab when we don't know what 90% of the universe is composed of (aka dark matter/dark energy) or how a microscopic black hole will interact or feed of of the same.
Hawking radiation is still an unproven theory, and to hope it will result in the immediate evaporation of the singularity is just that....HOPE.
So since these guys are basically hoping for the best, I suggest they cross their fingers when they fire this thing up.
 
Their remote operations center has links to the LHC and scientists are excited by the possibilities, even though they are technically CERN's rivals.

Rivals, schmivals. This is pretty much an excuse for every physicist on the planet to go out and get drunk with other physicists. :D
 
But the real collision would be still in October 21st. I have several friends that work at the CERN hehehe

And then go get drunk again when the full start happens. :eek:

One of the things I learned in college, apparently physicists are very fond of beer. :D
 
just for you information on september 10th there are not going to be any collisions they are just gonna accelerate some protons, that´s all!! why? well the term of the current "boss" of the CERN is ending, so he just want to show up on the picture! there are some other factors as well. But the real collision would be still in October 21st. I have several friends that work at the CERN hehehe
 
Good to hear that the doomsday machine won't be starting next Wednesday. I had big plans for the weekend.

funny thing is that over at the CERN there are only 2 security guards for the whole facility!!!!!! unbelievable!!! yep!!!
the security is really bad over there!!
i just hope nothing bad happens!! with all the crazy people out there, well mostly misinformed
 
Good to hear that the doomsday machine won't be starting next Wednesday. I had big plans for the weekend.
 
who knows... black hole psysics are barely understood, and it's quite possible that few particles will be enough to start a chain reaction ;)
 
If a handful of subatomic particles turn into a black hole, the black hole still has the mass of a handful of subatomic particles. The attraction between it and anything else will be that of the gravity of a handful of subatomic particles and whatever. It's not like it will be a massive, cosmic vacuum cleaner or anything.
 
Right. I think this is how it goes: Suddenly that subatomic particle becomes a singularity, where the size goes down to a single point. (right?) Then more subatomic particles go into that point, increasing it's mass. The bigger it gets, the more it pulls in. Pretty soon, there's a black hole with the mass of earth.

The question is, do the micro black holes evaporate before they pull in enough other stuff to become "macro" (for lack of a better term) black holes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_black_hole
 
What kind of wild antics do particle collider physicians dip in pray tell?
Man those guys (and gals) like to talk about stuff way over my head...and play ping pong...lots of ping pong...
Was there the obligatory memo passed around stating "There will be no whoring between company employees on premises.....that is all."
Hahaha, thats a given :eek:
And then go get drunk again when the full start happens. :eek:
There is a bar at Fermilab....:D:D:D:D
One of the things I learned in college, apparently physicists are very fond of beer. :D
See above response :) Not only do they like beer, but wine and cheese gatherings (Held every Friday afternoon at 3:30 )
 
I don't know about you guys, but I think it's cool that one of the biggest discoveries in history might be made during our lifetime, and we'll get to read all about it, thanks to the internet.

People 30 years ago just couldn't get this much info about research. I too wonder just what the hell will happen when those particles will hit eachother.

And I'm just impressed by the fact that in less than a year they might college as much data as the entire internet contains right now. These guys deal with insane amounts of data.
 
I don't know about you guys, but I think it's cool that one of the biggest discoveries in history might be made during our lifetime, and we'll get to read all about it, thanks to the internet.

People 30 years ago just couldn't get this much info about research. I too wonder just what the hell will happen when those particles will hit eachother.

And I'm just impressed by the fact that in less than a year they might college as much data as the entire internet contains right now. These guys deal with insane amounts of data.

Indeed, it would be amazing if new discoveries are made during this LHC service, and we would be here to know all about it.

I once watch this String theory documentary and they mention that this LHC, once in service, may be their best chance to date at finding circumstancial evidence for the superstring theory, or M theory
 
Then more subatomic particles go into that point, increasing it's mass. The bigger it gets, the more it pulls in. Pretty soon, there's a black hole with the mass of earth.

Except that subatomic particles are usually charged. Like-charged will not attract since electric forces are orders of magnitude greater than gravitational. Opposite charged particles can attract. However, since they are inside the LHC, they will stay inside the LHC due to the magnetic fields in there. Since it's a virtual vacuum, there are only a small number of particles to interact with. That give them time to evaporate before they are unleashed on the world - assuming the subatomic particles are stable enough to last regardless. Half lives still govern.
 
This is the reason we haven't run into ET's, all civilizations eventually reach a technological level like ours and either nuke themselves, make an uber virus, or create a black hole and destroy their planet.

WOOT.
 
Basically, working at Fermilab got me into watercooling computers...although our watercooling is a bit bigger :D

Magnet cooling (below), and one of many pump rooms, with redundant pumps and nitrogen blanketed low conductivity water tanks (better than Fluid XP Pro, lol).

IMG_1349.jpg


IMG_1344.jpg


Here's another fun one--- an access shaft like 110 feet deep. It's freaky down there :(

IMG_0398.jpg


Best of luck to the LHC though, I'm a little jealous of their size :eek:
 
Except that subatomic particles are usually charged. Like-charged will not attract since electric forces are orders of magnitude greater than gravitational.

Now I'm no physicist, but I did go to high school. What holds all the protons together in the nucleus of an atom, then? And if the generated micro black hole had enough velocity, could it not overcome their containment?

I'm not trying to argue, or make a point, I'm genuinely interested.
 
This is the reason we haven't run into ET's, all civilizations eventually reach a technological level like ours and either nuke themselves, make an uber virus, or create a black hole and destroy their planet.
I know you're being facetious, but according to Steven J. Gould, the main reason there is no evidence of any extra terrestrial intelligence in the entire observed universe is because multicellular life is extremely unlikely to evolve. It took over two billion years for the first multicellular organisms to evolve from single cells here on earth, and that was probably under the most favorable conditions. Let's say that life itself arising on another planet under earth-like conditions isn't too difficult and happens within a billion years of a planet's formation. But if multicellular life requires ideal conditions that mostly only occur after four billion years on an earth-like planet, then it's not likely we would see another civilization arising in our galaxy since we would need: A. a location in the galaxy not too close to the center (a greater likelihood of supernovas occurring close by) or too far out (not enough heavy elements available for the more complex cellular machinery); B. a metal rich main sequence star not too much larger than our sun (too large and it burns out before multicellular life can form) or too much smaller (smaller habitable zone and more likely to flare, destroying multicellular life on the planet). "A." leaves us with about 2 billion candidate stars and "B." reduces that to about 150,000 candidate stars (1 in 13).

Given that population I stars (metal rich) are much younger than the Milky Way (none are older than 10 billion years), we can probably assume that most of them aren't old enough for multicellular life to have had the chance to arise, making earth the first planet for it to happen to in the Milky Way.

What about other galaxies? Let's say that similar galactic conditions must occur for multicellular life to form, so we would need an old galaxy with enough population I stars. Let's also say that the oldest of those civilizations that arose are no more than 5 billion years old. It may be that those galaxies are too far away for the light to have reached us yet, so we see no evidence of any extra terrestrial intelligence, hence making us effectively "alone" in the universe.
 
I know you're being facetious, but according to Steven J. Gould, the main reason there is no evidence of any extra terrestrial intelligence in the entire observed universe is because multicellular life is extremely unlikely to evolve. It took over two billion years for the first multicellular organisms to evolve from single cells here on earth, and that was probably under the most favorable conditions. Let's say that life itself arising on another planet under earth-like conditions isn't too difficult and happens within a billion years of a planet's formation. But if multicellular life requires ideal conditions that mostly only occur after four billion years on an earth-like planet, then it's not likely we would see another civilization arising in our galaxy since we would need: A. a location in the galaxy not too close to the center (a greater likelihood of supernovas occurring close by) or too far out (not enough heavy elements available for the more complex cellular machinery); B. a metal rich main sequence star not too much larger than our sun (too large and it burns out before multicellular life can form) or too much smaller (smaller habitable zone and more likely to flare, destroying multicellular life on the planet). "A." leaves us with about 2 billion candidate stars and "B." reduces that to about 150,000 candidate stars (1 in 13).

Given that population I stars (metal rich) are much younger than the Milky Way (none are older than 10 billion years), we can probably assume that most of them aren't old enough for multicellular life to have had the chance to arise, making earth the first planet for it to happen to in the Milky Way.

What about other galaxies? Let's say that similar galactic conditions must occur for multicellular life to form, so we would need an old galaxy with enough population I stars. Let's also say that the oldest of those civilizations that arose are no more than 5 billion years old. It may be that those galaxies are too far away for the light to have reached us yet, so we see no evidence of any extra terrestrial intelligence, hence making us effectively "alone" in the universe.

There's a number of TV shows that directly refute this assertion.

Actually, the last part seems like a bit of a cop out, not that I'm a "scientist" or anything. If you considered the magnitude of candidates among all galaxies times a reasonable time since the big bang, life somewhere is a statistical certainty. The question is- are there enough civilizations time/space/etc to in surmountable proximity to assure the likelihood that one will discover the remains or signs of another?

I mean, look at the race that build Deep Thought--- they existed for millions and millions of years.
 
Except that subatomic particles are usually charged. Like-charged will not attract since electric forces are orders of magnitude greater than gravitational. Opposite charged particles can attract. However, since they are inside the LHC, they will stay inside the LHC due to the magnetic fields in there. Since it's a virtual vacuum, there are only a small number of particles to interact with. That give them time to evaporate before they are unleashed on the world - assuming the subatomic particles are stable enough to last regardless. Half lives still govern.
there is no such thing as a vacuum. There are multitudes of neutrinos passing through every cubic inch of space each second. They only weakly interact with normal matter but would certainly be captured by a black hole. We are also surrounded by dark matter, which we dont even remotely understand, other than to know it has mass. Again, we cannot assume that there will be no interaction or accretion of this material. So we are back to hoping for the best. Seems prudent to me to get a handle on what dark matter and dark energy really are, as well as figuring out the mass of the neutrino before we start playing around with black holes, which are not going to be containable, or even affected by any magnetic field.
 
dammit... editing error (Steve!). That should read: "are there enough civilizations in surmountable proximity to assure...."
 
What holds all the protons together in the nucleus of an atom, then?

Nuclear force. So called because it binds the nucleus together.

And if the generated micro black hole had enough velocity, could it not overcome their containment?

Hitting with a small projectile is tricky. The black hole's event horizon will be extremely tiny. If it did result in a direct strike, there could be a reaction - I'm not sure what the result would be. Kinetic energy of the relativistic black hole versus its gravitational potential at the event horizon.
 
*Strong nuclear force holds your nucleus together.

The LHC is close enough to a vacuum. Black holes won't kill us, strangelets will :-p
 
*Strong nuclear force holds your nucleus together.

The LHC is close enough to a vacuum. Black holes won't kill us, strangelets will :-p

The strangelets will escape the chamber, interacting with the researchers brains at the quantum level, turning them into zombies. REPENT!
 
There's a number of TV shows that directly refute this assertion.
:p You should believe me because, even though I'm not a doctor, I do play one on TV.

Black holes won't kill us, strangelets will :-p
Since we haven't found the remotest evidence for strange matter in any previous collision experiments, or even evidence for quark stars anywhere in the universe from naturally occurring collisions, I'd say the possibility of the LHC forming strangelets is pretty close to nil.
 
I know you're being facetious, but according to Steven J. Gould, the main reason there is no evidence of any extra terrestrial intelligence in the entire observed universe is because multicellular life is extremely unlikely to evolve. It took over two billion years for the first multicellular organisms to evolve from single cells here on earth, and that was probably under the most favorable conditions. Let's say that life itself arising on another planet under earth-like conditions isn't too difficult and happens within a billion years of a planet's formation. But if multicellular life requires ideal conditions that mostly only occur after four billion years on an earth-like planet, then it's not likely we would see another civilization arising in our galaxy since we would need: A. a location in the galaxy not too close to the center (a greater likelihood of supernovas occurring close by) or too far out (not enough heavy elements available for the more complex cellular machinery); B. a metal rich main sequence star not too much larger than our sun (too large and it burns out before multicellular life can form) or too much smaller (smaller habitable zone and more likely to flare, destroying multicellular life on the planet). "A." leaves us with about 2 billion candidate stars and "B." reduces that to about 150,000 candidate stars (1 in 13).

Given that population I stars (metal rich) are much younger than the Milky Way (none are older than 10 billion years), we can probably assume that most of them aren't old enough for multicellular life to have had the chance to arise, making earth the first planet for it to happen to in the Milky Way.

What about other galaxies? Let's say that similar galactic conditions must occur for multicellular life to form, so we would need an old galaxy with enough population I stars. Let's also say that the oldest of those civilizations that arose are no more than 5 billion years old. It may be that those galaxies are too far away for the light to have reached us yet, so we see no evidence of any extra terrestrial intelligence, hence making us effectively "alone" in the universe.


A lot of assuming and estimating there.
 
A lot of assuming and estimating there.
We only have one example of where life formed in the universe, so naturally most assumptions and conjectures of life elsewhere will be based on that. A pretty poor sampling indeed, but that's all science has to work with.
 
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