creating a large, multiroom 200 person network... help!

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oROEchimaru

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Soon I might be volunteering to help create a large network for a school. There will be two computer labs (30 pcs each) and then 1-5 computers in over 20 rooms accross the building.

1. what type of router do I need at the server/connection?
2. what type of devices should I use to bring it into each room?
3. any guides?
4. how do I create user accounts, with space for each account (File storage like 20mb)... should I use active directory + wink3+ raid 5? any help? were should I start

please help me in the general direction. is it possible to have one router go to like 8 hot spots, and then have 8 wireless n routers... with wireless n cards in each one? is that the best/easiest option?
 
jroe52 said:
Soon I might be volunteering to help create a large network for a school. There will be two computer labs (30 pcs each) and then 1-5 computers in over 20 rooms accross the building.

1. what type of router do I need at the server/connection?
2. what type of devices should I use to bring it into each room?
3. any guides?
4. how do I create user accounts, with space for each account (File storage like 20mb)... should I use active directory + wink3+ raid 5? any help? were should I start

please help me in the general direction. is it possible to have one router go to like 8 hot spots, and then have 8 wireless n routers... with wireless n cards in each one? is that the best/easiest option?
Click to expand...
Are you SURE you're competent enough to handle this one?
 
Pretty ambitious task. Personally I would use either a smoothwall or an endian firewall at the WAN link. I would try to keep my proprietary machines down to a minimum. I would get a pre-built server from a big reseller ( Dell, HP, etc) running Server 2003 and make that the domain controller, nothing fancy focusing more on RAM and CPU than anything else. I would then build a few cheap little linux servers for various tasks. I would built a file server with as much hard drive space as your budget allows. I would then setup another box to run the Internet and Intranet sites and perhaps another box to handle DNS and DHCP, to keep the load off the smoothie/endian. My personal take.
 
Whats your budget?

Is there any existing cable infrastructure in the building?

Is there an existing network?

Is there a spot for a proper server room and wire closet with adequate power?

Have you ever tackled a project like this before?
 
Don't forget that with schools you are dealing with personal/academic information that has to be secured properly. Along with that don't forget that you will need a GOOD internet filter to be compliant. Look for something that is CIPA compliant.

Not to be debbie downer but you'll want to make sure all these legalities are addressed before any budgeting is figured out since security can add big bucks.
 
thanks for the feedback guys:)

I'm not sure of all the details yet.

1. no network cables
2. they have a small server, but nothing that could do this
3. they need to do this on the cheap lol (non-profit)
 
jroe52 said:
thanks for the feedback guys:)

I'm not sure of all the details yet.

1. no network cables
2. they have a small server, but nothing that could do this
3. they need to do this on the cheap lol (non-profit)
Click to expand...

If they dont have cables, and you don't have any experience running wire, or punching jacks, you're going to be in for a rough ride.
 
xenotype said:
If they dont have cables, and you don't have any experience running wire, or punching jacks, you're going to be in for a rough ride.
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I'll second that. It's a royal pain if you aren't experienced...even then it can be a real pain. If it were me, I'd find someone else to do it or get out of the project altogether. Last price I saw was $90 a drop...that's a lot of free labor they'd be getting out of you.
 
2 x 32 Port switches with gig uplinks should be a good start

What internet connection do you have?
 
they havn't decided yet. the traffic would be low... its a school of 800 kids but at most would be 200 people on at a time doing regular internet stuff (not torrents/file sharing), saving documents to the network, moving files about, and saving student records.

they were thinking t1 but i'm not sure of the prices. i think they would be fine with a 10mbs up and downstream from tw.

i have to work out the details with her, but your right if there are no jacks i'd need an electritian degree lol. specially in an old building.

the reason why i wrote it in a newbiesh manner was i was hoping to get links or guides, i have some experience just not a large scale. any guides for making a large scale network or links to the routers/switches that are mentioned?
 
jroe52 said:
they havn't decided yet. the traffic would be low... its a school of 800 kids but at most would be 200 people on at a time doing regular internet stuff (not torrents/file sharing), saving documents to the network, moving files about, and saving student records.

they were thinking t1 but i'm not sure of the prices. i think they would be fine with a 10mbs up and downstream from tw.

i have to work out the details with her, but your right if there are no jacks i'd need an electritian degree lol. specially in an old building.

the reason why i wrote it in a newbiesh manner was i was hoping to get links or guides, i have some experience just not a large scale. any guides for making a large scale network or links to the routers/switches that are mentioned?
Click to expand...

Are you F-ing nuts? "200 people on at a time" is considered "low"? A T1 will cost between $300 and $400 a month, depending on (some) options and what service level they offer (uptime guarantee + response time/availability guarantee.) Also, T1's aren't TOO expensive to get installed (for my area it's about $1000 - $1500, depending on building- and area-specific concerns.)

You also mentioned "saving student records." That opens up a WHOLE new ballgame as now you are the one responsible for securing student academic records. This requires a thorough security analysis and, often, academic management software (which must also be secured thoroughly.) Most schools will utilize either a separate network or, at the very least, separate servers (with their own databases) for this kind of task, depending on local/state laws.

You are NOT building a hobbyist home network with this project--you need to get out of that mentality right now or you are going to dig yourself a pretty big hole!

202276


EDIT: You do NOT, NOT, NOT, NOT secure something with wireless. Ever. Period. End of story. NO!!!!! Wireless is NOT your option here unless the requirements drastically change!
 
It isn't unknown for a school of 400 to saturate a T3 (45mb) however so long as you run some form of access control you could get away with 10mb Symetrical.
 
thanks guys for the feedback it is helping. so far this is a theoretical project. what are the typical costs for t3?

at our work we have 10mbs up and down for 40 people, but its very graphic/advertising intense, we also host sites and send out bulk mail fine. but this is constant 10mbs up and down
 
It's actually called a DS3, not T3, and it's 28xT1's.Circuit installation/router equipment and dmarc is about $4k-$5k and monthly cost would be $6k-$8k/mo.
 
jroe52 said:
the reason why i wrote it in a newbiesh manner was i was hoping to get links or guides, i have some experience just not a large scale. any guides for making a large scale network or links to the routers/switches that are mentioned?
Click to expand...
This might come of sounding a bit harsh, but this project over-eclipses your skills by far, judging from your previous posts. Do youself and the poor little bastards that go to school there a favor and do NOT touch this network build, please leave it up to the professionals. If you want to get involved, be the person that does the coffee runs, does any other kinds errands for the engineers and try and "sponge" as much information about the build that you can. Once again, there are far too many skills that you don't have under your belt to do this kind of a project. :( Like the others stated, this is not a hobby home network yet you're treating it exactly like that.

Motley said:
It's actually called a DS3, not T3.
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pfft.... semantics:p
 
xphil3 said:
This might come of sounding a bit harsh, but this project over-eclipses your skills by far, judging from your previous posts. Do youself and the poor little bastards that go to school there a favor and do NOT touch this network build, please leave it up to the professionals. If you want to get involved, be the person that does the coffee runs, does any other kinds errands for the engineers and try and "sponge" as much information about the build that you can. Once again, there are far too many skills that you don't have under your belt to do this kind of a project. :( Like the others stated, this is not a hobby home network yet you're treating it exactly like that.


pfft.... semantics:p
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QFT. Do us all a favoir and let someone else who is qulaified handle or atleast get somone to he;p that is qualified. It will just cost them more in the end.

As for on the cheap for non-profit. You can get XP and office licenses very cheap for a non-profit org.
 
Non-profit, have them sign up at techsoup.org
I prefer to separate networks using a managed switch at the top...create port based VLANs...uplink switches to different segments to a unique port on the switch that is each assigned to a separate VLAN. The routers port..say it's port 1..is a member of each VLAN, have the router manage DHCP for the entire network.
 
oakfan52 said:
QFT. Do us all a favoir and let someone else who is qulaified handle or atleast get somone to he;p that is qualified. It will just cost them more in the end.

As for on the cheap for non-profit. You can get XP and office licenses very cheap for a non-profit org.
Click to expand...

While I'm forced to agree with you here, I think the OP did the right thing by addressing the idea that he knows he can't tackle this alone. Further, he's come to a place of tremendous knowledge to seek help. I think we could help him at least a little bit, so he can see for himself if this project is 1) capable of even being done, 2) being done by him and 3) address all security, stability and availbility concerns of any network.
For instance, I think the OP needs to disclose every piece of detail about the project. Timeline, actual budget (close guess?), everything they have in place. A rough, dimensioned sketch of the building(s) needing networked. What excatly the network needs to accomplish. Etc. etc. etc.
 
lol i'm not a newb and i'm an it person.. i just never have built a larger than 2 router network myself, much less for 200 computers lol. constructive feedback is great so i can relay prices to the principal. obviously 8k is out of the budget. a 10mb/updown might work for us... with 1gb lan . however.. like you guys are saying how can one guy do this? espcially if the building is old, brick or multi levels etc... thats a giant project.

so.... now on to the next part...

what should the school do? (ignoring t1 vs t3 crap)... for setting up there network if they have these simple goals


1. one server... for storage.
2. user accounts that use step 1 storage.... and can transfer between computers (active directory or something else... can it stay windows based)


other goal:
1. actually building the server... what will it cost... to have:
1 pc in each class (x50)
2 labs with 30 computers each (60)
2 rooms with 5 pcs each (10)

having about 150 computers total (yeah the math doesn't add up)... what is
THE EASIEST, most cost affordable option... not a nerd fight, please be professional
 
I would view cabling as a separate thing altogether. You have to know standards, electrical and building codes, construction, etc. In my experience, a lot of electricians do not do low voltage cabling in a professional way. I have had to clean up their messes. However, there are many large electrical contractors with separate low voltage divisions, and they do excellent work. You mentioned that this was an old building; running wire in existing buildings, and doing it PROPERLY is not a small task. It's a lot more than just popping open some ceiling tiles and running patch cords. Yes, I have seen networks that are done just like that :(
 
so the best thing if i was lucky would be if they had network jacks already=)

*prays*...
 
Use AD if all the computers are running XP Pro which will enable users to log onto any computer and access only their files.

Say you have a single server with 3*75gb Drives which would give you 225gb, give each student 1gb of storage and have another 75gb drive running the OS and programs. :cool:

For the computer labs, two cheap used switches off ebay with 32 ports and a gig uplink.

For the rooms with 5 PC's in a cheap 8 port 100mb switch should do.
 
yay thanks!

so... server... what type of router/switch should i have at the server... which leads to the other two switches?
 
jroe52 said:
yay thanks!

so... server... what type of router/switch should i have at the server... which leads to the other two switches?
Click to expand...

If you can afford it, though I'm guessing not, cisco stuff works well. However, even still, they're overkill for this, IMO.
Do yourself a favor though, and stick to one brand of routers and switches. You'll kick yourself in the ass later if you don't. Or whoever ends up maintaining it will come and find you, and kick your ass if you don't. Either way it's not pretty.

You'll probably want to go server -> router -> switch(es). From those switches, cable to rooms. Have appropriate switch(es) in each room for the number of connections.
That is of course, an overly basic guess as to what to do. If any run is more than 100 m horizontal, or one floor Veritcal, you're going to run into some fun issues.

On top of this, you'll be setting up AD, GPOs, ACLs at the bare minimum. Then shared and personal drives.

For the student grades and such, look towards Blackboard.
 
For routers, I use Sonicwall. For switches, my next purchases will likely be HP Procurve (lifetime warranty). Contact Dell as well. A lot of people down talk Dell, but I have been working with them the last month or so on a new server and the possibility of leasing 75 desktops and 25 laptops. My account manager is a very nice guy and has resources available to him to answer any questions that I have regarding hardware, software, networking, licensing, servers, etc.
 
Servers from Dell FTW. 98% of our servers (About 58) are Dell servers. Coupled with the warranty, you should be good to go.
 
I'm assuming you are writing up a proposal of some sort of this to give to the school. I would go ahead and start lists and break them down into categories, ie software, hardware, network, on-going costs, etc. I would then right in all suggestions under the right category and start researching.

Right now it all sounds pretty ambiguous (SP?) so try to break it down into categories which will really help when you have to take it to a client. That will also help us aim our suggestions. Just a thought but sounds like a fun project.

As for switches I would also toss in my hat for HP, love em. Router wise a lower level cisco would be good if your comfortable with cisco. For desktops/servers we use HP as well and I would rate their servers highly and their desktops upper middle level. The desktops probably will cost you around $900 with monitors. Don't forget about printers, schools LOVE paper. Probably will need at least one big laser jet probably more so that's another grand a piece. Hope that helps.
 
Even if you do have existing wiring, who knows what shape it is in, how it is terminated, things like that...
 
Find out if FIOS is available for your area. Much better bandwidth per dollar ratio than T1s, plus they have packages with 2x as much dl as upload - like 30/15. You probably wont need that much upload, but plenty of DL. For firewall, probably go with like Endian - Antivirus, content filtering, etc. If you need to have a mail server for email accounts for students, use google apps. HP Procurves for switches. 1800-24G are good.
Have you figured out how to secure data that needs to be secured. VLANs are not a true security measure. For something like this, I would personally go with giving a separate interface on the firewall for the systems which hold that data, and open up pinholes to specific machines that need to access it.
Have you thought about backup solution? You're going to need one. As far as staying on a budget, does anything they're going to be using these systems for actually require windows? Save a ton of money on licencing with Edubuntu, an LDAP login server, etc. On the other hand, Active Directory is way easier to manage.
 
Are you seriously recommending Ubuntu?

Further more, there have been zero documented cases of a properly configured VLAN being compromised. VLAN Hopping just doesn't happen unless you REALLY fuck up the config.

Its apparent that you really aren't sure what you are doing, JRoe. As good of a learning experience as this might seem, its irresponsible to take on a project which your are incapable of completing properly. You'll only wind up costing the people you work for more money in the end to fix your mistakes.
 
Most of this stuff is fairly basic networking (as far as the build/design goes).

Once you get into running it (router configurations, internet connections, security, etc) is where it gets tough.

I once ran cable for 50ish computers in a single office space. Over 2 MILES of cable. My guess is you need help to start with, something like this would take forever alone.

I suggest calling a few schools in your area that do the same sort of stuff- figure out what kind of internet connection each of them has. Get a ratio figure, and calculate that to your network.
DSL may also be an option for you, depending how fast you will end up needing- often faster than a T1 (Mine is- I've got two).


I suggest also paying someone to configuring your router as well. I wouldn't have the router assign DHCP (your choice), I prefer having the domain controller do that, myself.


As for student records, I'd have at least two main servers (Again- no idea on traffic here). One for your domain needs (basic file storage, DHCP, Active Directory, etc). And another in a completely different network for student records/data (basically- nothing other than the Teachers group could get to).


But I would say a good 80% of your time will be spent running your cables, setting up switches, hooking stuff up (Assuming you have a plan and at least some experience in getting servers going).

While you could probably figure this out on your own- the issue of time is the main problem you will run into (it'll probably be cheaper on the school to hire two or even three people).
 
thanks for all the feedback guys =)

would it go:

internet>firewall-> server -> router -> switch(es).

? like a smaller network?

2 servers is probably a good idea, since some schools i have been at the servers for grading run at 10% speed when it comes down to grading time. having a dedicated server would reduce these types of headaches.

If it comes down to it, I might have the school hire installers... so I can handle the maintenance as the IT dude... but setting it up myself without help might be over ambitious!
 
jroe52 said:
thanks for all the feedback guys =)

would it go:

internet>firewall-> server -> router -> switch(es).

? like a smaller network?

2 servers is probably a good idea, since some schools i have been at the servers for grading run at 10% speed when it comes down to grading time. having a dedicated server would reduce these types of headaches.

If it comes down to it, I might have the school hire installers... so I can handle the maintenance as the IT dude... but setting it up myself without help might be over ambitious!
Click to expand...
Probably more like:
inet => firewall => router => switch(es) => end devices (cable to room switches, servers).
If you feel you're in too deep, have someone come in and do the hard work, and then advertise yourself as the upkeeper ;).
 
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