It's official, DangerDen has stopped trying

Erasmus354 said:
I am confused how experience in manufacturing water blocks and marketing waterblocks has anything at all to do with knowledge of basic thermal dynamics. If you could enlighten me on that one it would be a great help.

You don't need to have marketed water blocks to see that the cooling area above the core for the IONE is smaller, has less surface area, and will create less turbulence than its main competitors. Those are all bad things in terns of heat transfer. In fact the only good thing about the block is that it is slightly cheaper and likely is lower restriction. The lower restriction will probably have a hard time overcoming its shortcomings around the core area however.

THAT comes from the experience of many years of watercooling and a couple of university thermo dynamics courses, more than enough to know what is going on.

DangerDen is quickly becoming a mainstream company. They are no longer trying to service the enthusiast base that got them started. In order to become a mainstream company they need to improve profit margins. Performance also isn't nearly as important to the mainstream as "ooo shiny watercooling". Therefore DangerDen is trying to lower their manufacturing costs and increase their profit. I can't particularly hold it against DangerDen, it is good for them as a company, but still disappointing as a former loyal customer. I wanted to see DangerDen put out something really nice for their full cover block, something different, instead we got something that scrimped in an effort to lower costs with no concern for performance.

Look at DangerDens full cover blocks over the years. Graphics cores have been getting larger and hotter. Yet DangerDens cooling area for the cores have gotten smaller and less complex. Using less and/or smaller fins. Their design is moving backwards, and it is disappointing.
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I am glad you can tell us what Danger Den is thinking . . .so you know the owenrs well I take it? I mean you must talk to them regularly to know what they are thinking when they make the choices they do? You are right about one thing: They are a business. I also run a multi-million dollar business. They had good products that work. Do they make everyone happy? No. That is why the market is large enough to have several good waterblock makers. If you do not like one, use another.

One thing you have no clue about is demand and how that has influenced what Danger Den does. Here lies the truth. Danger Den is not some large company. They have limited capacity. That is the fact. They are cautious and responsible in expanding . . .they are working on meeting their customers' needs. Now take it one step further. Danger Den is comprised of individuals . . .and these individuals are decent, hard-working people who really do care about this market and the customers.
 
DarthBeavis said:
The only thing we cannot deny is you have rich corinthian leather . . .congrats
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Too bad the dogs scratch it to hell.

The LeBaron also reminds me of Freddy Got Fingered, but enough off topic-ness.
 
DarthBeavis said:
I am glad you can tell us what Danger Den is thinking . . .so you know the owenrs well I take it? I mean you must talk to them regularly to know what they are thinking when they make the choices they do? You are right about one thing: They are a business. I also run a multi-million dollar business. They had good products that work. Do they make everyone happy? No. That is why the market is large enough to have several good waterblock makers. If you do not like one, use another.

One thing you have no clue about is demand and how that has influenced what Danger Den does. Here lies the truth. Danger Den is not some large company. They have limited capacity. That is the fact. They are cautious and responsible in expanding . . .they are working on meeting their customers' needs. Now take it one step further. Danger Den is comprised of individuals . . .and these individuals are decent, hard-working people who really do care about this market and the customers.
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You apparently have no clue either since you haven't directly shown any evidence to the contrary. All you are doing is making pointless straw man arguments. If you can show any reason for the poor design other than lower manufacturing costs I am all ears.
 
Erasmus354 said:
You apparently have no clue either since you haven't directly shown any evidence to the contrary. All you are doing is making pointless straw man arguments. If you can show any reason for the poor design other than lower manufacturing costs I am all ears.
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Actually the more you speak the more it shows that YOU Erasmus have no clue. It takes quite a bit more than a couple classes and a couple of years working on ur own stuff before you have experience in the REAL world. You started the thread saying DD stopped trying is enough to show others you are wrong right off the bat.
And to say it looks like it was designed by a lazy monkey is an insult to DD and the good products they make for the enthusiast market. (also showing your ignorance)

You continue to insult people that are far superior to yourself, its a shame you can see that.

PS: I would venture to say DarthBeavis has contributed MUCH more to the modding community in the last year than you will in your entire life. So by insulting him further shows how ill informed you are.
 
Erasmus354 said:
You apparently have no clue either since you haven't directly shown any evidence to the contrary. All you are doing is making pointless straw man arguments. If you can show any reason for the poor design other than lower manufacturing costs I am all ears.
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First I never said it was poor . . .that is your choice of words.
 
markkleb said:
Actually the more you speak the more it shows that YOU Erasmus have no clue. It takes quite a bit more than a couple classes and a couple of years working on ur own stuff before you have experience in the REAL world. You started the thread saying DD stopped trying is enough to show others you are wrong right off the bat.
And to say it looks like it was designed by a lazy monkey is an insult to DD and the good products they make for the enthusiast market. (also showing your ignorance)

You continue to insult people that are far superior to yourself, its a shame you can see that.

PS: I would venture to say DarthBeavis has contributed MUCH more to the modding community in the last year than you will in your entire life. So by insulting him further shows how ill informed you are.
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If you would like to continue personal attacks on myself please take it to a PM instead of derailing the thread any further. Once again all you have done is attack me rather than trying to disprove anything that I have said. Please, try to make it a discussion instead of flaming me just because I don't roll over for everything DangerDen does.
 
I actually like the simple look. I am not well versed in water cooling, so can anyone explain why the water channel (is that what you call it) does not cover the area where the mosfets belong? Does the copper just transfer heat from that part of the block very well?

On another note, is there a GPU water block that has pin grids? Would it make much of a difference if a model did? I would imagine that it would be very cost prohibitive.
 
Furious Salesman said:
I actually like the simple look. I am not well versed in water cooling, so can anyone explain why the water channel (is that what you call it) does not cover the area where the mosfets belong? Does the copper just transfer heat from that part of the block very well?

On another note, is there a GPU water block that has pin grids? Would it make much of a difference if a model did? I would imagine that it would be very cost prohibitive.
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that would be cool (pins)
 
Furious Salesman said:
I actually like the simple look. I am not well versed in water cooling, so can anyone explain why the water channel (is that what you call it) does not cover the area where the mosfets belong? Does the copper just transfer heat from that part of the block very well?

On another note, is there a GPU water block that has pin grids? Would it make much of a difference if a model did? I would imagine that it would be very cost prohibitive.
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There are GPU only blocks that have pin grids, and there was a full cover block that had a pin grid although it was more of a homegrown type of project with not too many sold, took a pin grid heatsink and soldered it to the rest of the full cover block.

As for the mosfet cooling, the copper can conduct the heat throughout the block well enough for cooling them.
 
Erasmus354 said:
There are GPU only blocks that have pin grids, and there was a full cover block that had a pin grid although it was more of a homegrown type of project with not too many sold, took a pin grid heatsink and soldered it to the rest of the full cover block.

As for the mosfet cooling, the copper can conduct the heat throughout the block well enough for cooling them.
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pins would be my nivana tho as I like appearance and performance . . .
 
markkleb said:
Actually the more you speak the more it shows that YOU Erasmus have no clue. It takes quite a bit more than a couple classes and a couple of years working on ur own stuff before you have experience in the REAL world. You started the thread saying DD stopped trying is enough to show others you are wrong right off the bat.
And to say it looks like it was designed by a lazy monkey is an insult to DD and the good products they make for the enthusiast market. (also showing your ignorance)

You continue to insult people that are far superior to yourself, its a shame you can see that.

PS: I would venture to say DarthBeavis has contributed MUCH more to the modding community in the last year than you will in your entire life. So by insulting him further shows how ill informed you are.
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You are really ignorant when it comes to water blocks. Water cooling is a enthusiast market. By making ugly, obviously poor performing blocks they are slowly killing themselves. If you take a look at the EK block you can see straight up quality. When you hold a DD 8800 FC block next to EK FC block the EK block screams quality. On the rear of the EK block it is polished to near mirror finish, well the DD block lacks any real polish, and looks more like a stock AMD heatsink base, very rough. I know this because I have owned both blocks. Also guess what block was cheapest? That would be the EK block at the time by about 10 dollars. Another testiment to the cheapness of lack of quality contained within the DD 8800 FC blocks. The acrylic that the barbs screwed into on the block was shattered. I was tempted at the time to RMA the thing, but I don't want to risk it cracking again so I got a machined steel plate to screw the barbs into instead. Ek use the copper for the barbs to screw in, no risk of cracking there.

DSCF0023.jpg


One of the first thing that strikes you about DD new blocks are that they are sand blasted. In theroy this should increase surface area. Some possible problems is that any goop that gets in your system is going to settle in these little holes. That goup could easily come from algee, rad flux, placitizer from tubing, or water additive. That stuff will settle in those cracks and create a small isolating layer they will decrease cooling effectiveness. Ek's block on the other hand has what seems like small lines cut down the channels. This increases the surface area, well making sure goop build up will not affect you as greatly.

Now on to the channels. In the DD block there are 5 straight channels. The EK block has 6 channels, all curvy. Curvy will increase surface area. The DD block lacks any kind of thought for the most effective design.

Now lets compare the DD and EK 8800 GT blocks. I MS painted where the water will pull, and where the water will fly through.
DDI1.jpg


Looking at the EK block it is clear there is no obvious places where the water will pool, there is a constant flow of water.

FC88GT1_01.jpg



Even on the new DD MC-TDX block they half assed it, even stealing the exact same pin count as the fuzion. Read more about it here. http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=164629&highlight=tdx The whole board pretty much tore that block a new one.

DarthBeavis I know you think you are the greatest person in the world running a multi million dollar company, hell you are probably a better business man then I am. But isn't one of the principle ideas listening to your customers? The water cooling croud wants high performance, not "Ok." I don't give a rats ass if DD is making more money since they cheaped out on the block, yet kept the price at the same place as most other FC blocks. DD looks likes it becoming the new TT of water cooling. Companies like Dtek, Swiftech, Thermochill, and Ek understand the market they are selling to. They all make highest performing blocks. I doubt you would find a enthusiast water cooling rig without at least two of these brand names.

Just so you know I can prove I have owned both blocks :p

DSCF0027.jpg
 
HotGore, I beg to differ about the barb screwing into copper. If you position the barb on the acrylic/acetal side, there is no copper to screw on it and even if you don't use it, you still need to screw the plugs so this argument is useless.

However, about the design, I fully agree with you than EK is a much better design than DD since to improve the thermal transfer, we need to create some turbulence and DD has no turbulence and too much room for water to get around where it's needed the most, which is the gpu area.

I also find the DD design not very efficient when it come to machining (at least on the acrylic side) due to the bumps for the screws. EK just pad a bit and get a much smoother curve and this will shave lots of seconds of CNC time.

 
guys you just glossed over a big point I made from a business perspective. I love EKs stuff, but EK from a business perspective is on a different level than DD (which a smart videocard maker should try to leverage). BFG . . .look at availablity of DD products and ask why sometimes they are hard to get. Now, here is where we actually come together but you really need to take this as a learning moment. DD is at the point where they are moving from one size company to another. If you have CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (which it really sounds like you do once we get past your bullcrap flaming) then you really should find a way to put it into a coherent form and send it to DD. Customers said they like the older style of GPU block . . .DD responded. From what I am reading you really do like Danger Den or did and really want them to meet your vision . . .That can be a good thing if you handle it right and don't try to turn it into a flamefest.
 
HotGore are you actually calling me ignorant? Have you heard of spell check?

I am curious as to your body of work, could you post some examples of what you have created for me please.

(if you examine your picts you will see the DD block has much more water in contact with the copper (removes heat much faster) also you will notice the EK is much more restrictive to flow. As to pooling of water if you introduce die in the water you will see it does not pool but flows like the block was designed to.)
 
DarthBeavis said:
guys you just glossed over a big point I made from a business perspective. I love EKs stuff, but EK from a business perspective is on a different level than DD (which a smart videocard maker should try to leverage). BFG . . .look at availablity of DD products and ask why sometimes they are hard to get. Now, here is where we actually come together but you really need to take this as a learning moment. DD is at the point where they are moving from one size company to another. If you have CONSTRUCTIVE feedback (which it really sounds like you do once we get past your bullcrap flaming) then you really should find a way to put it into a coherent form and send it to DD. Customers said they like the older style of GPU block . . .DD responded. From what I am reading you really do like Danger Den or did and really want them to meet your vision . . .That can be a good thing if you handle it right and don't try to turn it into a flamefest.
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DarthBeavis, I fully understand that what is mostly motivating DD right now is their business goals. That doesn't mean we can't still be disappointed when they put out something which is obviously sub-par when compared to its direct competitors. The problem people have is not with the business but with the product. As consumers we don't care about their business we care about what we are going to buy.

Also, the older style of GPU block actually has a larger core cooling area than this one does, DD is going backwards....
 
well this is quite the flamefest. Has this block actually been tested yet?:rolleyes:
 
When innovation ends, and market analysis begins, the product is less appealing to me.
 
topcat989 said:
well this is quite the flamefest. Has this block actually been tested yet?:rolleyes:
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According to Erasmus354 and HotGore testing dosent matter. What matters more are their expert opinions of it, lol

Brantoc said:
When innovation ends, and market analysis begins, the product is less appealing to me.
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LOL, if the world worked like that what would posses people to innovate anything? By the way if the product fails in the market than its gone and the company learns from its mistake and improves it, or the co. goes bye bye...
 
Do you even possess a watercooling loop Markkleb?

I'm dumbfounded by your sheer ignorance. There are three very basic concepts when it comes to making a successful watercooling block.

1. Flow rate and path
2. Inpingment/Turbulence
3. Surface area

The DD block unfortunatly fails in all of the above categories, except for maybe flowrate... which might mean something if you have 5 other blocks in your loop and a weak pump.

EK has more surface area, much more turbulence, and a better flow path (no dead spots or pockets). I'm sure the DD block will win out in flow rate, but it'll lose the temperature battle. Also, the EK block looks a lot better (IMHO) which means something to a lot of consumers (myself, not so much).

It doesn't take testing to back up our arguements. It really is obvious, and i'm sure when the numbers come out it'll just back up our arguement even more. I don't give two shits about how well or bad DD is doing as a company, I just want them to put out a quality, competitive product. Who gives a fuck if they are expanding, or trying to cut costs, or becoming a more widespread company, I just want a waterblock that isn't half-assed. It is bad for the consumer when there is only one real choice for a FC block, and that choice is EK. Nowadays people are starting to go more towards a GPU block with ramsinks instead of FC blocks because they perform better, are reusable, and there is a much larger selection. (Maze 4, 5, MCW-60, FuzionGPU, four blocks from three different companies.)
 
Shlomo said:
It doesn't take testing to back up our arguements.
I don't give two shits about how well or bad DD is doing as a company
Who gives a fuck if they are expanding, or trying to cut costs, or becoming a more widespread company
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LOL, I rest my case. You guys are way too smart for me.:rolleyes:
 
markkleb said:
LOL, I rest my case. You guys are way too smart for me.:rolleyes:
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I love testing, testing is great. You can estimate how well something will do by the design, and how things of similar design have done. Honestly this block could blow everything out of the water, and be crazy. Cool, I was wrong, I learned something.

I also don't understand this talk of DD becoming a bigger comapny. This does not justify a lack of innovation. Should we all say TT is the best WC company because they make mad profits and bring home the dough. Maybe I should start recommending TT over everything else. If this thread was about DD profit margins and that they where high then I would understand talking about their business strategy.

markkleb said:
HotGore are you actually calling me ignorant? Have you heard of spell check?

I am curious as to your body of work, could you post some examples of what you have created for me please.

(if you examine your picts you will see the DD block has much more water in contact with the copper (removes heat much faster) also you will notice the EK is much more restrictive to flow. As to pooling of water if you introduce die in the water you will see it does not pool but flows like the block was designed to.)
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Anyways I did call you ignorant. You have done little to claim DDs block will be the winner of the world. The only argument I have heard that is compelling is that they blasted their blocks.
 
I've got a pair of the Danger Den blocks on the way. Danger Den, as a company, has always taken real good care of me. Their customer service hasn't been anything but exceptional. Their a domestic company, too. So that's worth the possible difference of a few degrees, to me. Anyway, I'll do some testing when I get the rig put together here in the next week or two. It won't be anything comparative, but it might give some of y'all an idea.
 
HotGore do see that maybe you came off a little wrong? I think you probably might even have good intentions . . .just the way you came across. Saying Denger Den does not care is the wrong way to go about it . . .especially when some of us know them in real life. Disagree with their design? That is fine. But to make statements like you did is just not the right thing and probably was your emotions over the issue (it is good you care . . .just take a breath before you post).
 
DarthBeavis said:
IONE review . . .BFG version so delrin instead of acrylic top:
DD IONE review (tho black acrylic top not clear acrylic as it is for BFG):
http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/484/
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LOL!!! Seems like the block works just fine. Most likely would not see any performance improvements going to an EK block...... I must say though, with the delrin top it looks very nice.


** Update - BFG has reconfigured it's price after we wrote our conclusion. Initially we where told the price would hover arround 400 USD. BFG however now have set the price at an amazing 529.99 USD which in our opinion is just too high. You can purchase a standard 8800 GTS 512MB for 330 USD, a waterblock can not be worth an extra 200 USD.

We stripped away the editor's choice, it's still a lovely product yet that sales price is absurd.
 
DarthBeavis said:
IONE review . . .BFG version so delrin instead of acrylic top:
DD IONE review (tho black acrylic top not clear acrylic as it is for BFG):
http://www.guru3d.com/article/Videocards/484/
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Correction, that is a video card review. Hardly a review of the waterblock at all. We don't even know what setup he is using for the watercooling loop other than "An Asetek kit". Next to impossible to draw any conclusions from this other than "the card doesn't overheat". Which was never really the issue. I have already said the block will cool the card just fine, the question is whether it can do it better than its competition.

Its a shame that you can't get the black delrin version without buying the BFG card. I really like the look of the black delrin version a lot better than the plexi top.
 
Erasmus354 said:
Its a shame that you can't get the black delrin version without buying the BFG card. I really like the look of the black delrin version a lot better than the plexi top.
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It hides what is under the hood ;)
 
Erasmus354 said:
Correction, that is a video card review. Hardly a review of the waterblock at all. We don't even know what setup he is using for the watercooling loop other than "An Asetek kit". Next to impossible to draw any conclusions from this other than "the card doesn't overheat". Which was never really the issue. I have already said the block will cool the card just fine, the question is whether it can do it better than its competition.

Its a shame that you can't get the black delrin version without buying the BFG card. I really like the look of the black delrin version a lot better than the plexi top.
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Part of the DD criticism is that the DD's IONE picture shows it in a bad light...literally. Sandblasted, it's not going to be flashy to begin with, but the pic you used is pretty boring compared to EK shots. Even the better shot they use for their store

imagemp4.jpg


is still fairly boring. I agree that their core contact are is getting progressively smaller, just look at their 29XT, not released too long ago:

29xttop600wuo7.jpg


Mostly the same design, except not single slot (I believe). Really puzzling why they're shrinking the core area - even with a single slot design, it's still pretty easy to just reduce the height of most any of their previous full cover core designs. It doesn't really make much sense for cutting cost either, they're not saving much from reducing the contact area like that.

Either DD has really just cut out most of the time they used to put on their 6800 & 7800 designs, or this tiny core design is needed for some needlessly complex mounting from the back. Those blocks were also straight (not sand blasted) copper, like the EK's of today. Sandblasting is fine to use when looks don't matter, but part of the success of EK's blocks definitely comes from their gratuitous flashing copper. Just doesn't make much sense, period.
 
ikellensbro said:
is still fairly boring. I agree that their core contact are is getting progressively smaller, just look at their 29XT, not released too long ago:

It doesn't really make much sense for cutting cost either, they're not saving much from reducing the contact area like that.

Either DD has really just cut out most of the time they used to put on their 6800 & 7800 designs, or this tiny core design is needed for some needlessly complex mounting from the back. Those blocks were also straight (not sand blasted) copper, like the EK's of today. Sandblasting is fine to use when looks don't matter, but part of the success of EK's blocks definitely comes from their gratuitous flashing copper. Just doesn't make much sense, period.
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Here is a thought, the new cards use smaller dies, make less heat and therefor need less core contact.

If you read the review DB posted a link to you will see it works fine and cools excellent compared to the stock cooler.

And I dont get you guys, DD has made a very good block and just because its not shiny its not good enough? First the blocks face down in ur comps so you cant see them anyways and its much better to me that I get a good cooler for a more reasonable price than some fluff in my comp.
 
I have never once in this entire thread claimed that I gave a flying rats ass about looks, because I don't. My entire purpose in water cooling is cooling, that is all I care about. I like the EK block better because it has a better design (as shown by the 7800 blocks where EK was better performing than the sandblasted small core area DD block).
 
I could care less about how it looks, but it is true you can tell a lot about how something will perform just by looking at it.

I used to like DD a lot, and great for them if they are trying to grow and make things faster, however...

All the water blocks shipped with cards have been sub-par. From evga's innovatek stuff (utter crap), BFG used to use koolance (LAWL), and DD's started to take a turn as well... though I wouldn't call their product bad. And don't even get me started on those "pre-built sealed card only systems" that MSI/Sapphire/lead-tek try to push.

Which is another reason this stuff gets to me. These water cooled or water ready cards are sold way over cost, and you can range anywhere from a less then top notch block to a complete nightmare.

I'll wait to see how this performs, I've got a SFF PC that I'm going to put under water and this would be perfect.
 
ikellensbro said:
Part of the DD criticism is that the DD's IONE picture shows it in a bad light...literally. Sandblasted, it's not going to be flashy to begin with, but the pic you used is pretty boring compared to EK shots. Even the better shot they use for their store

imagemp4.jpg


is still fairly boring. I agree that their core contact are is getting progressively smaller, just look at their 29XT, not released too long ago:

29xttop600wuo7.jpg


Mostly the same design, except not single slot (I believe). Really puzzling why they're shrinking the core area - even with a single slot design, it's still pretty easy to just reduce the height of most any of their previous full cover core designs. It doesn't really make much sense for cutting cost either, they're not saving much from reducing the contact area like that.

Either DD has really just cut out most of the time they used to put on their 6800 & 7800 designs, or this tiny core design is needed for some needlessly complex mounting from the back. Those blocks were also straight (not sand blasted) copper, like the EK's of today. Sandblasting is fine to use when looks don't matter, but part of the success of EK's blocks definitely comes from their gratuitous flashing copper. Just doesn't make much sense, period.
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Hmm seems like there is more contact then in the first pic. Thought the fins where much smaller in the first pic, but you can see they are quite tall. I take back everything I said, it looks like it will do ok :D
 
HotGore said:
Hmm seems like there is more contact then in the first pic. Thought the fins where much smaller in the first pic, but you can see they are quite tall. I take back everything I said, it looks like it will do ok :D
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You do realize the second picture is of a completely different block right?
 
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