Samsung 245T - What a panel...

A

arkon

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Oct 3, 2007
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Just got my shiny new 245T yesterday... (been waiting for these for months, like everyone else). Have tried waiting for LED backlit monitors, but will be waiting a while before wide screen ones become available (and the technology matures).

Wow... what a panel. Not a single dead pixel/sub-pixel out of 2.3M, and no apparent ghosting (like with the Dell 2407WFP-HC)! :D

This panel was originally seen around the time that the 2407 appeared (back in March?), but then vanished... Hmm... do you think Samsung went away for some quiet firmware/panel revision after the saturation/banding/ghosting issues of similar panels? This one has a build date of September 2007, plenty of time to fix a few things...

I'm using it at work ATM, so not much time to test it thoroughly, but I haven't noticed any ghosting (even with the MPA feature turned off; don't want to use it unless I have to). Have run a number of games on it and haven't noticed any significant input lag either. Need to play CS on it to determine that...

With all the connections and superior stand (compared to the Dell which has binary positions), this is worth the money IMHO. Can't wait for a proper shoot out in the reviews...
 
its avaialble in the UK and also europe, I dont understand why it hasnt appeared in the states yet?

I think samsung wanted to move to wide-gamut before shipping the 245T, the original 245T wasnt.

where are you based?
 
I'm in the UK. Started to see them appearing a few days ago. Had seen the BeHardware not-so-good review of an early panel (which looked wide gamut to me):

http://www.behardware.com/articles/680-1/lcd-24-iiyama-b2403ws-samsung-245t.html

They state it is a PVA panel, but it's an S-PVA one (perhaps a minor point).

They also complain about the reds being almost luminescent... well the panel sure is bright and the contrast was way too high (100% out of the box), but spending a few minutes tweaking the OSD settings (like setting Contrast Mode to Normal, Brightness to 33%, and Contrast to ~50%) sorted the saturation and red luminosity.

I'm not a professional photographer who requires accurate colours, and don't have a colorimeter, but the OSD controls are ample for balancing the display for most users (programmers/gamers/surfers).

I expect it won't take long for the panels to appear in the US now.
 
glad to hear you're happy:) if you're picky it can be a bitch to get the right lcd for you. sounds like you made a good purchase.
 
Can you post images on this forum without web-hosting them?

I'll connect up my Dell XPS M1710 (which has both DVI and VGA outputs, unlike my crappy work laptop...) and snap the stopwatch to check input lag with various settings.

Will have to be on Monday now...
 
its best to use a CRT for the comparison, doesnt matter new or old.
 
Doesn't this monitor have some sort of anti-ghosting feature like BFI?
 
I thought I might have found my long awaited solution when I first read this article, but alas, no.

When oh when will I find the near perfect 24" monitor.
 
Hmm... that doesn't bode well for my frag count.

I'm going to test this myself, trying variations of settings and other configurations.

Perhaps MPA makes it better, or perhaps it makes it worse, for example?

I've only seen one test; I'm going to fiddle about with stuff and see if I can affect the lag in any way.

Wouldn't have wanted to go for a Dell because of their problems (colour banding, ghosting on 2407WFP-HC, input lag as well although it is better than 58.8ms av., and panel lottery).

Don't want to go for a cheaper screen (the TN BWs) as you are sacrificing inputs and general quality.

Will try and squeeze this monitor and see what I can get! I'll post any findings here...

Edit: Damn... the 1920x1200 SGI CRT I've just replaced has been scrapped already! Efficient workplace... Will try to find another widescreen CRT to test.
 
arkon said:
Edit: Damn... the 1920x1200 SGI CRT I've just replaced has been scrapped already! Efficient workplace... Will try to find another widescreen CRT to test.
Click to expand...

arkon - since we're both in the UK I sent you a PM re the possibility of me taking the scrapped crt off you (assuming it hasn't already been grabbed by someone else or sent to the recycling centre) Thanks


apologies to everyone else for the slightly off topic post!
 
Sorry IanM... it's been minced. They take them off to be recycled and then ground down into dust, apparently...

These CRTs are like gold dust. Trying to find another one where I work to carry out this input lag test. Not many people sell CRTs any more...

BTW, does it have to be a 1920x1200 CRT I do the input lag test on (in clone mode)? I presume so, but people may disagree. I've tried a 1600x1200 monitor, and whilst you can set the res. in windows to 1920x1200, the monitor displays at 1600x1200.
 
arkon said:
Sorry IanM... it's been minced. They take them off to be recycled and then ground down into dust, apparently...

These CRTs are like gold dust. Trying to find another one where I work to carry out this input lag test. Not many people sell CRTs any more...
Click to expand...

That is a crying shame, unless it was definitely totally beyond repair. I managed to get 4 Sony's from my old workplace as it's easier for company to give them away rather than scrap them according to the official environmental standards. Stupidly I binned one recently before I realised it might've been fixable :mad:

arkon said:
BTW, does it have to be a 1920x1200 CRT I do the input lag test on (in clone mode)? I presume so, but people may disagree. I've tried a 1600x1200 monitor, and whilst you can set the res. in windows to 1920x1200, the monitor displays at 1600x1200.
Click to expand...

Does 'clone mode' allow you to set different res for each monitor?

'lesnumeriques' apparently use a DiamondTron, so that won't be widescreen. Though saying that my Sony 21" happily displays widescreen & you just adjust the screen size to get the ratio correct.

From the English version of lesnumeriques: http://www.digitalversus.com/duels.php?ty=6

"In this test :
We put the screen in clone mode as well as our CRT reference (tube screen), a Mitsubishi DiamondTron, in clone mode and time them with an accuracy of 1/1000 of a second. We then photograph them in order to find ten consecutive time differences.

What should I look at?
We give you the average of 10 delays as well as the minimum and maximum. In games, a delay of 16.7 ms equals a delay of one image, 33 ms equals 2 images, etc. The graph on the right represents the stability of this delay"​

I suspect it won't make a difference what res the CRT is at
 
Hmm... I was wondering about their setup.

I'm not sure if it will make a difference, but I would have a 1920x1200 CRT setup for a proper comparison. Not sure how the RAMDACs will feature.

When I get a proper CRT, I'll do a real test!

P.S. My old WUXGA CRT had a slightly fuzzy display in areas, so I wouldn't have recommended it ;)
 
With the program af8.exe you can make your own bitmap, then you can run in extended desktop mode. Sincie you can make your own digits for the programm to display :cool:

I don't think you can get it less, 204Ts has inputlag , 214T has, 244T has, so it does make sense that the 245T has too.
 
OK.

Managed to save my SGI monitor (Sony GDM-FW9011 1920x1200) to do a comparison...

245T via DVI and CRT via VGA.

I've performed two tests so far, and will try swapping the connections around (DVI/VGA) in the next test.

First test was with MPA feature turned off on the 245T:

[Average of 30 measurements]
Min.: 31
Max.: 62 (one measurement) :eek:
Ave.: 41.87ms (=2.5 frames latency)

Second test with MPA turned on:

[Average of 20 measurements]
Min.: 16 :D
Max.: 63 (again, one measurement) :eek:
Ave.: 40.65ms (=2.43 frames latency)

This is not as bad as the lesnumeriques benchmark (which gave 3.5 frames of latency for the 245T :p ).

I'll do the other tests to rule out outputs ;)

---
4rkon
 
With what camera are you working? And what shutter? Most cameras first take one side of the picture and then moving to the other side. If the Samsung is on the side of the foto that get's made first, then it wins a little ;)

Also, what shutter time are you using?

Lesnumeriques apparently uses a slightly other way of taking the pictures, and they got more luck getting 63 ms shots ;)
 
Using my digital camera with ISO 800 film type and 1/1000 shutter to see the milliseconds (similar to lesnumeriques setup ;) ).

With that shutter speed, you aren't going to see 16ms difference between the left and right side of the image! :rolleyes:

ISTR that the lesnumeriques setup had their CRT on the right-hand side, as did I. :p

I suppose I have to repeat the experiment with the positions swapped to prove my point, eh? :D

---
4rkon
 
it wont matter since the lag is horrendous, 1.5 frames I consider absolute borderline, 2 frames is definetly a no no, 3-4 frames is a joke.

Im holding out until january, new IPS screens with minimal lag from Apple.
 
arkon said:
Using my digital camera with ISO 800 film type and 1/1000 shutter to see the milliseconds (similar to lesnumeriques setup ;) ).

With that shutter speed, you aren't going to see 16ms difference between the left and right side of the image! :rolleyes:

ISTR that the lesnumeriques setup had their CRT on the right-hand side, as did I. :p

I suppose I have to repeat the experiment with the positions swapped to prove my point, eh? :D

---
4rkon
Click to expand...

With that CRT @ 60 Hz and a 1/1000 shutter time you will only see a 17% of the image on the CRT.. ;)

I suppose I have to repeat the experiment with the positions swapped to prove my point, eh? :D
Click to expand...

Yes, offcourse :p

kleox64 said:
it wont matter since the lag is horrendous, 1.5 frames I consider absolute borderline, 2 frames is definetly a no no, 3-4 frames is a joke.

Im holding out until january, new IPS screens with minimal lag from Apple.
Click to expand...

You mean the new Panels from LG-Philips? That new 30" LM300WQ5 panel looks indeed great :)
 
With that CRT @ 60 Hz and a 1/1000 shutter time you will only see a 17% of the image on the CRT..
Click to expand...

I know. I only used images where either the scan line was right over the centre of the text, or if the afterglow was still clearly visible ;)

As kleox64 says, the fact that it has an input lag of 2.5 frames is still not good enough for twitch-gamers.

I got work to pay for the monitor :D, so I can investigate H-IPS screens...
 
jcvjcvjcvjcv said:
You mean the new Panels from LG-Philips? That new 30" LM300WQ5 panel looks indeed great :)
Click to expand...

exactly, I wont be going for the 30" probably the 24/26" 1920x1200 is what I want to stick to especially with crysis on the way.
 
The 245T has finally appeared on Samsung's US website...with absolutely no mention of overscan or 1:1 in any of the documentation. The manual helpfully suggests that "16:9" and "wide" are the choices for HDMI input scaling. Oh well. Maybe someday a marketing genius will discover that manuals can describe what the device is doing -- rather than just how to make it do it. Perhaps quite a bit sooner an angel on this forum will run a 1080p scaling test for us...
 
Has anyone been able to find a US release date? Anyone contacted Samsung?

I'm really interested in seeing reviews of this monitor once it hits US shores. I've only seen one review from a respectable source (Behardware, Lesnumeriques). I want to see updated reviews to see if anything has changed since arriving in the US. Hopefully color and lag issues will be gone. At least it is not suffering from the "inverse ghosting" issues plagued by the otherwise really nice Dell 2407wfp-HC.
 
I doubt the input lag will have been fixed TBH.

Don't believe the reviews 100%. I've measured the input lag myself on my 245T and it was a frame quicker than the "lesnumeriques" test (with the panel on the left or the right jcv ;)).

Also, the colour saturation is present if you don't adjust the display's settings. The colour gamut is quite wide on these monitors, and the colours beautiful if you spend 2 minutes fiddling with the OSD controls.

This is a gorgeous monitor: just not for FPS gamers I'm afraid... :( I use it for programming and graphical work in the office now. Waiting for reviews of 24" H-IPS screens for gaming purposes...

---
4rkon
 
Here's a sample of the difference between an S-IPS panel and a newer H-IPS panel.
The S-IPS is on the left and the H-IPS is on the right.

LCD2690WUXi_vs_iMacG5_2tm.jpg


LCD2690WUXi_vs_iMacG5_3sm.jpg


H-IPS panels don't suffer from the purple haze that S-IPS panels exibit at extreme viewing angles.

The NEC LCD2490WUXi 24" and the new Apple iMac 24" both use the same L.G. Phillips LM240WU2 H-IPS panel. I use one of the new 24" iMacs at work and it is amazing! The image quality of the new 24" iMac actually convinced me as to the superb quality of the L.G. LM240WU2 panel. It led me to actually shell out the extra cash and buy an NEC LCD2490WUXi for home. It should be here in a few days. I'll post pics when it gets here.
 
Are you able to do an input lag test (similar to the one at Digital Versus)?

The NEC 26" H-IPS panel was measured to have 2 frames of latency on average (up to 50ms maximum lag :eek:) compared to a CRT.

Better than a S-PVA panel, but still not great for gaming.
 
the lag is due to the extra control (series 90) electronics, Apple will be updating thier monitors shortley (Jan) with H-IPS panels. Not sure whats gona happen with the 20", anything over 24" will be IPS based.
 
machinaex00 said:
H-IPS panels don't suffer from the purple haze that S-IPS panels exibit at extreme viewing angles.
Click to expand...
That's not the difference. Older S-IPS panels had an orange glow or haze at slight angles and purple at extreme angles. Newer S-IPS panels have a white haze instead, and so do H-IPS panels. The NEC monitors don't have that haze because of the A-TW (Advanced True Wide) polarizer, which helps retain contrast even at an angle. The 24" iMac doesn't have the A-TW polarizer, so it has the white haze. You can see it if you turn out all the lights and view something dark.

I have to agree though. The LG LM240WU2 panel is the best-looking LCD panel I've ever seen, especially with the A-TW polarizer.
 
arkon said:
Are you able to do an input lag test (similar to the one at Digital Versus)?
Click to expand...

I'll try, if I can find the time. I have an old 17" CRT and a Nikon D50 that should work great.

arkon said:
The NEC 26" H-IPS panel was measured to have 2 frames of latency on average (up to 50ms maximum lag ) compared to a CRT.
Click to expand...

Assuming that the 2490 has similar input lag as the 2690 (I'm not basing this assumption on any test mind you, just a guess), then I should be fine. I don't consider 2 frames (technically <2 frames) of lag to be that bad. I'm a casual gamer and will be using the monitor for mostly photo/video editing/graphics work. I just wouldn't want the lag to affect general usage (e.g. mouse pointer movements, etc.).
 
Hnng)2^%&*(uyt!!

Inputlag on the new IPS panels? So if they replace the current IPS panels: get one now.

An overview:

TN: in general crap
S-PVA: inputlag > crap
IPS: no intput lag, no crappy viewingangles > best
new type IPS: inputlag > crap

Well...? LCD's get worse?

Man, I HATE inputlag and I am never ever gonna buy a screen with it again.
 
This thread is going rather off topic & the answers you are looking for are floating around in the threads about the NEC & Planar models but I'll try to summarise:

jcvjcvjcvjcv said:
new type IPS: inputlag > crap
Click to expand...

machinaex00 said:
Assuming that the 2490 has similar input lag as the 2690 (I'm not basing this assumption on any test mind you, just a guess), then I should be fine.
Click to expand...

It's not the new IPS panel that causes the lag. NEC 2490, 2690 & all other NEC 90 series has 2 buffered frames due to the image processing. Travbomb (the NEC rep on here before he left) confirmed this. As did ToastyX lag testing his 2490, and the 2690 before he returned it. Also I believe the NEC 2470WNX (VA panel) lags a similar amount which suggests the 70-series multisync's also have similar processing

The 26" Planar has one frame of lag, so get that if you don't mind wide gamut & want it for gaming.

machinaex00 said:
I don't consider 2 frames (technically <2 frames) of lag to be that bad. I'm a casual gamer and will be using the monitor for mostly photo/video editing/graphics work. I just wouldn't want the lag to affect general usage (e.g. mouse pointer movements, etc.).
Click to expand...

2 frames lag is better than almost any LCD TV you can buy these days. The only exception I've heard of is the Sharp GP1U through the VyperDrive port - approx 1-1.5 frames lag (I think, you'll have to confirm by reading the GP1U threads here and at AVSforum)

So in a way you're right, 2 frames won't bother you too much unless you are sensitive, but a lot of people are and in certain timing critical games anyone may find it harder to play/progress than playing the same thing on a CRT
 
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