Upgrading to a DirectX 10 card? Think again!

mokkapoop

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 6, 2005
Messages
1,155
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Micr...re-Won-039-t-Support-DirectX-10-1-62482.shtml

SIGGRAPH 2007 is the stage where Microsoft dropped the bomb informing that the currently available DirectX 10 hardware will not support the upcoming DirectX 10.1. Microsoft has yet to confirm this piece of information through channels that are not connected with the Association for Computing Machinery’s 34th annual international conference on graphics technology - SIGGRAPH 2007. However, the Redmond company did present Direct3D 10 at the event and even tackled the upcoming release, version 10.1.

Still, according to a report from DigitalBattle, Microsoft revealed that the upcoming update to be introduced to the current version of DirectX will no longer be compatible with the existing graphics cards. Microsoft made the jump from DirectX 9.x to DirectX 10 concomitantly to the transition from Windows XO to Windows Vista. The company is currently offering DirectX 10 exclusively bundled with Vista, and has faced accusations that it is forcing the migration to its latest Windows operating system in this manner.

Microsoft currently estimates that out of the 60 million licenses of Vista pushed since the customer launch of the operating system at the end of January, approximately 10 million have gone to gamers looking to take advantage of the company's freshest graphics technology. At this point in time, the Redmond company has released a pre-beta version of Windows Vista Service Pack 1 to a select group of testers.

One aspect of Vista SP1's role is to upgrade DirectX 10 to DirectX 10.1. At SIGGRAPH 2007 Microsoft did reveal that Direct3D 10.1, an integer part of DirectX 10.1 will "come soon" with Vista SP1, through the voice of Sam Glassenberg, Lead Program Manager with the Direct3D Team. Glassenberg revealed that all users have to do in order to test drive Direct3D 10.1 is to get their hands on the DirectX August SDK and Windows Vista SP1. Glassenberg additionally stated that Direct3D 10.1 and implicitly DirectX 10.1 will be "supported on upcoming hardware and in Windows Vista SP1."

Also see this:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,2168429,00.asp



At the SIGGRAPH graphics conference, Microsoft gave a presentation detailing some of the changes coming in DirectX 10.1. Those that are interested can view the presentation slides here. The highlights are as follows:

DirectX 10.1 is a series of extensions to DirectX 10
It's supported by upcoming graphics hardware, but not current DX10 hardware
It requires (and will be part of) Vista Service Pack 1

This is business as usual, as far as DirectX is concerned. DX 10.1 hardware will be backwards compatible with DirectX 10, but current DX10 hardware won't be forward compatible. So games looking to support DX 10.1 still need a DX 10 rendering path to support today's DX10 cards. Think of it like when Microsoft released DirectX 9.0c with added Shader Model 3.0 support. Also, don't worry too much about it requiring SP1 (which isn't out yet). The DX 10.1 SDK only recently was made available, and by the time supporting hardware and DX10.1 are released to end users somewhere in the first half of 2008, SP1 should be readily available.

What are the changes? DX 10.1's goals are to offer the "complete" DX 10, giving developers better control over image quality and making mandatory some of the things that are optional in DX 10. For example, 32-bit floating point filtering is optional in DX10 (16-bit FP filtering is mandatory), but will be mandatory in DX 10.1. Also, in DX 10, the number of multisample anti-aliasing samples is optional—DX 10.1 will make 4x AA mandatory, and require two specific sample patterns. Graphics cards can offer more sample patterns, and developers can query them in their shaders. Graphics cards that are DX 10.1 compliant will have to offer programmable shader output sample masks and multisample AA depth readback. Game developers will be able to index into cube maps and perform bitwise copies from uncompressed textures to block-compressed texture formats.

If that's a bunch of gobbledygook to you, don't sweat it. The main takeaway is this: DirectX 10.1 is a straightforward incremental update to DX 10 that forces graphics vendors to adhere to a few more set standards with regards to image quality and a couple other under-the-hood graphics features, mainly to give games more control over image quality.
 
Sigh*, thats a whole lot of typing you did there. Yet, "DX10.1" means squat. Current hardware meets all of the requirements except for SM4.1 and maybe one other small attribute. In the end all of this is pointless and no one should care. With DX10 adoption rate so slow, the current generation will be "last generation" at the earliest when any of these so called enhancements are "used". It's just a set of guidelines that none of us gamers will see any direct visual benefit. See, all that was needed is one good paragraph and there ya go ;).
 
Hey look, another one of these. Cool. At least you didn't waste the time of typing all that out yourself.

Time for everyone to get mad for no reason. *sounds awooga horn*
 
Wow, the OP is a day late (actually more like a month), and a dollar short...
 
"DX 10.1 will make 4x AA mandatory, and require two specific sample patterns".

All DX10.1 video card will need their AA working correctly... that is for sure!
 
I am glad I waited. If I'm going to spend $300+ on a video card then I want it to at least be the current standard because I will keep a $300+ video card for a long time.

Now if you already bought a 8800 because of DX9 speed then no problem. I'm sure DX10.1 is not that big of a deal but people who are close to buying... well maybe wait a bit more.

-JB
 
I am glad I waited. If I'm going to spend $300+ on a video card then I want it to at least be the current standard because I will keep a $300+ video card for a long time.

Now if you already bought a 8800 because of DX9 speed then no problem. I'm sure DX10.1 is not that big of a deal but people who are close to buying... well maybe wait a bit more.

-JB

Even if someone were to buy a card now, or wait another 6 months for a possible DX10.1 card, they're not going to see a difference. The only thing that's really new is SM4.1 over SM4.0. As slow as SM adoption is, another series will long be released before SM4.1 is in actual use (assuming it brings anything of worth to begin with).
 
I am glad I waited. If I'm going to spend $300+ on a video card then I want it to at least be the current standard because I will keep a $300+ video card for a long time.

Now if you already bought a 8800 because of DX9 speed then no problem. I'm sure DX10.1 is not that big of a deal but people who are close to buying... well maybe wait a bit more.

-JB

Well if you think a DX10.1 card is gonna last you more than a year to a year and a half you're kidding yourself.
 
I just bought a DX10 card today. Oh noes!

I'll now be a stuck with a worthless DX10 card that won't support multiple sample levels per scene (only one sample level per scene -- tragic!) in the first SM4.1 title in Q1/Q2 2009. Well, dang.

If only I had seen this thread...
 
Yes this must be like how DirectX 8.1 cards made those Directx 8 cards obselete or were you not around for that one? Or how those SM 2.0 were made obselete when SM 2.0b cards came out :rolleyes:
 
after seeing some of the recent DX10 benches hardocp did, No point in going to DX10 right yet. Might as well wait for the refresh, besides not really any GOOD dx10 titles out that are TRUE dx10

just my 0.02
 
You always hear wait. You can be waiting with your hand on your a$$ for a long time. I remember buying a Geforce 3 brand new when it came out. $400.00. And not to long later they came out with a newer card. They always will. My next card I bought from a friend used. It was a Geforce FX 5600. Then I bought a new Geforce 6600 GT. Right now I have a used Geforce 6800 GT OC. Now I'm trying to buy a used 8800 GTS 320. I keep hearing wait. What are you all going to do when you wait and get the card that supports DirectX 10.1. Then Microsoft releases DirectX 11? I wish I had the links. But they already talk about DirectX 11 coming between 2008 and 2009.
 
Well thats why I said wish I had kept the links. There was 2 articles that discussed it with Microsoft.
 
I think forced 4xAA is overkill. I hope someone will be able to find a hack around that eventually. If my card forced 4xAA on every game I played right now, I wouldn't be able to comfortably play a lot of games.
 
So basically i just spend 300 dollars on my 8800gts and that was a waste cause the other cards will smoke my card a month from now ? :confused: someone please let me know the difference e
 
You should be fine, but if you want to keep up with new technology you'll have to update your rig every couple months.
 
So basically i just spend 300 dollars on my 8800gts and that was a waste cause the other cards will smoke my card a month from now ? :confused: someone please let me know the difference e

No, you'll be fine. Read the responses in this thread :p. DX10.1 = smoke 'n' mirrors for the most part.
 
It was about bloody time AA was standardized, thats for sure.

Wish they'd do the same for widescreen support DONE CORRECTLY and some kind of standard for mouse acceleration, 2 of my most highly rated annoyances next to AA.
 
Since there is no software (besides development tools) requiring dx 10.1 and no hardware supporting dx 10.1, why should we care about dx 10.1? We shouldn't.

Moore's law states that there will always be better and faster hardware available in the future. Likewise, Microsoft will continue to develop newer and newer versions of directx software. With this in mind, one could conceivably wait forever and never upgrade.

If you need dx10 today, then why wait for a dx10.1 graphics card? There's not even a gaurantee that developer's will use the new standard. Until you actually need dx 10.1, I wouldn't worry too much about it. Just like how you shouldn't be worried about dx11, or dx12, dx13, etc... Just buy what you need when you need it.
 
So basically i just spend 300 dollars on my 8800gts and that was a waste cause the other cards will smoke my card a month from now ? :confused: someone please let me know the difference e

If some of the reports I've seen are correct,it'll be more than a month before any cards that are real improvements over the 8800's come out.When Nvidia does put out their next line,I've heard they'll start with mid level models and the high end models that would surpass the 8800 will come later.
 
Is this really a suprirse? The same thing happened with DX9, shortly after, we had DX9c which introduced HDR. Same thing with DirectX 8, shortly after, 8.1 was released. This is nothing new.

There are two main reasons I did not bother to upgrade to a 8800 series card.

1) I already have a powerful DX9c card that does what I need it to do

2) for this reason, I knew the first gen of DX10 cards would be close to useless for DX10 based games, not only becuase of DX10.1, but beucase even the all mighty 8800GTX/Ultra has mediocre performance at best when rendering DX10 graphics.
 
I don't know about you guys but I'm enjoying all of the wrist slashing going that I've seen throughout the net and in a similar thread, 1 thread below this one here lol. The minuscule percentage that buy the top end will buy it whenever it releases. It seems like if Nvidia misses it's oh-so-crucial 1yr anniversary then it will be seen as a sign to the geek idols that they're slacking up on putting the pressure on ATi/AMD. Of course no one really thinks that "timing" has everything to do with it. You release your product when it's good and ready in a timely manner. The 2900xt came out latter, normal logic would tell you that it would be better right?

Coming out first or last has little to do with anything if your product isn't ready. Nvidia did well with there's even though they were first and look at in comparison. The moral of the story is to release when the product is ready, forcing your hand is the worst thing you can do just to meet a time table that isn't going to make or break a thing. Once that product is out there, once the core is tied off and done, there's no going back to say "oops, meant to do it this way". Three months for example isn't going to do anything if that's when they choose to release a new high-end card/family. Again, it will just piss off a few people on the net who will forget and buy it anyway. Sure, anything longer could pose as a problem.

This is of course assuming that it really is a mid-range offering that's being released, which is what it's looking like, just clarifying my stance.
 
I know with more techie minded people here, I might get burnt for this.

I think when we are discussing the buying of any new chip or card, there is our human nature involved, that tells your average dude to get the latest version. If you tell him to spend his last buck on a card today on version XX, but within a month version XX.1 will be out. Inform him that down the line it will do some things that your card won't do, but don't worry about that because you probably won't need it. :eek:

I don't even think it matters much what features you start nameing off, of the things that he probably dosen't need. He just knows his card won't be able to do some things, when programmers start actually looking for that feature on your GPU. If the new version is close enouigh to being released, i'm betting some will just wait.....

If they understand that the high end cards will (reportedly) not to be replaced for a while, he will feel a bit better. Still, it may not sit well with him, especially if he knows he's not the kind of cat, that is willing to upgrade his video card every few months.....

I am not saying it's wright or wrong, just that our human nature tells us to get the latest version, if we are buying today. I still think it's odd to have your mid range cards sitting at DirectX 10.1, and your flagship card still back at 10.0. For how long.... another year like that?
They still might have a suprise in the bag for the speedsters, on DirectX 10.1, that is if they do even go to that version on the new cards. I for one am still hoping for a high level secret card that pops out early. I don't think they would tell us and risk hurting the 8800 sales. If you keep your flagship 1 version behind, it creates confusion in the consumers mind, no matter what future features we are are talking about that your card can't do. Heck, if the features are that worthless, why were they included in version 10.1? Somebody thinks it's an upgrade.....

Look how many people were pissed off with their bad P90's with the defective abscure calculation problem. Were they going to be doing the scientific calculations on their home PC's where this would impact them? No way. I think they even understood that too. Didn't matter 1 bit. The only thing they knew for sure was that they had a bummer chip. They could even download a program to confirm thay had 'the bad one' if you want to call it that. The cry's were so great intel gave out free replacement units, to all origional owners for free. First Intel tried tried to sell that 'only if you can prove you use that function' first. Remember that? That turned out to be a turd in the punchbole. Everybody wanted a new one! By giving a timeframe to all owners for free replacement was a good relations move by Intel, to an emotional situaction.

Emotion impacts sales more than logic might indicate is all I am really trying to say.... ;)
 
Well if you think a DX10.1 card is gonna last you more than a year to a year and a half you're kidding yourself.

My 6800 Ultra lasted me 2+ years and I would still be using it had the Vista drivers not been so horrid months ago.

When you make statements like this you automatically assume that "everyone" has an unlimited budget and needs the very best each year.

Someday I hope to enter this catagory as I assume many other do but to say that if I spend $300+ on a video card that it will only last me a year... well that's assuming alot I think.

-JB
 
I just bought a DX10 card today. Oh noes!

I'll now be a stuck with a worthless DX10 card that won't support multiple sample levels per scene (only one sample level per scene -- tragic!) in the first SM4.1 title in Q1/Q2 2009. Well, dang.

If only I had seen this thread...

Definitely tragic, so I suggest you mail me your 8800 Ultra, so that I can help you with your burden.

:)
 
I know with more techie minded people here, I might get burnt for this.

I think when we are discussing the buying of any new chip or card, there is our human nature involved, that tells your average dude to get the latest version. If you tell him to spend his last buck on a card today on version XX, but within a month version XX.1 will be out. Inform him that down the line it will do some things that your card won't do, but don't worry about that because you probably won't need it. :eek:

I don't even think it matters much what features you start nameing off, of the things that he probably dosen't need. He just knows his card won't be able to do some things, when programmers start actually looking for that feature on your GPU. If the new version is close enouigh to being released, i'm betting some will just wait.....

If they understand that the high end cards will (reportedly) not to be replaced for a while, he will feel a bit better. Still, it may not sit well with him, especially if he knows he's not the kind of cat, that is willing to upgrade his video card every few months.....

I am not saying it's wright or wrong, just that our human nature tells us to get the latest version, if we are buying today. I still think it's odd to have your mid range cards sitting at DirectX 10.1, and your flagship card still back at 10.0. For how long.... another year like that?
They still might have a suprise in the bag for the speedsters, on DirectX 10.1, that is if they do even go to that version on the new cards. I for one am still hoping for a high level secret card that pops out early. I don't think they would tell us and risk hurting the 8800 sales. If you keep your flagship 1 version behind, it creates confusion in the consumers mind, no matter what future features we are are talking about that your card can't do. Heck, if the features are that worthless, why were they included in version 10.1? Somebody thinks it's an upgrade.....

Look how many people were pissed off with their bad P90's with the defective abscure calculation problem. Were they going to be doing the scientific calculations on their home PC's where this would impact them? No way. I think they even understood that too. Didn't matter 1 bit. The only thing they knew for sure was that they had a bummer chip. They could even download a program to confirm thay had 'the bad one' if you want to call it that. The cry's were so great intel gave out free replacement units, to all origional owners for free. First Intel tried tried to sell that 'only if you can prove you use that function' first. Remember that? That turned out to be a turd in the punchbole. Everybody wanted a new one! By giving a timeframe to all owners for free replacement was a good relations move by Intel, to an emotional situaction.

Emotion impacts sales more than logic might indicate is all I am really trying to say.... ;)

IMHO I think that "some" people who already own DX10.0 cards somehow feel like that are on some crusade to convice others (and themselves) that their top-of-the-line video card will no longer be top-of-the-line. DX10.1 may or may not mean anything but it's the very notion that the new stuff can do something the old card cannot that upsets them.

So they post and post and rant about how the new stuff means nothing but they are just trying to talk themselves into thinking this.

If the new cards drive the price of the 8800's down then I may still get a 8800 in the future. All I care about is if the video card I own allows me to enjoy the games that I play. I do not get upset if a card comes out and allows 35fps vs my 32fps. I do not post copies of reviews of the card I own on my wall and frame them telling me how great my video card is LOL.

It's a stinkin card and not a statement on my personal worth or value :)

Sometimes I think people get into pissing matches over a few fps and bragging rights over who has the largers *smiles*

-JB
 
So basically i just spend 300 dollars on my 8800gts and that was a waste cause the other cards will smoke my card a month from now ? :confused: someone please let me know the difference e

Yes and no. Yes, because new cards will come out all the time (maybe not in a month's time), that will compete or surpass yours, while having better features.
And no, because these DX10.1 news mean absolutely nothing. Your card will NOT be worthless in any way.
 
Is this really a suprirse? The same thing happened with DX9, shortly after, we had DX9c which introduced HDR. Same thing with DirectX 8, shortly after, 8.1 was released. This is nothing new.


Actually the DX9c added Shader Model 3 (SM3) to the mix, it wasn't HDR specifically. Other than SM3 made it possible to do some forms of HDR. Then Valve released both HL2: Lost Coast and the HL2: Episode one illustrating that HDR can be done well on both 9a/b cards and also on 9c cards.

If developers work hard and do good work, you'll find that the visual quality of the titles will vary little between 10 and 10.1. The only real question will be in terms of possible performance or lack of precision (9a/b HDR was lower percision in Valves work, but it still pulled it off very well).

Where you have to concern yourself is the also to eventually to be released DirectX 11. There'll be significant enough changes I wagger that it'll be more of a gaming impact (Like compairing a good DX8.1 card to a DX9c card).

DX10.0, 10.1, 10.2 and what not will be similar to DX9 with capabilities bits, even if MS is insisting that capabilities bits are a thing of the past. :rolleyes:
 
Yes continue to sit on the fence while those that upgrade know hardware is not static.
 
Yes continue to sit on the fence while those that upgrade know hardware is not static.

No... I upgrade every year but I buy the card that has been out for a year. This way I always pay 1/3 the cost.

So while you pay $350ish every year for the latest and greatest, I pay under $150 for the card that you paid $350ish a year before.

This has worked up until recently because the 8800 prices have not fallen because the perception is that the 2900 does not compete. How true this is or not is not the issue but rather what people think.

No competition means no price drops.

I may very well end up with an 8800 next year but when I do buy the cost will be well under $200.

-JB
 
I just got a 8800GTS 320MB and I'm happy with it.
I'm using it on my XP Pro and playing all my older games and some newer ones too.

U must see Red Alert 2 on a 22" Wide screen - hahahaha.

As long as Dx10.1 games run on my card (with the .1 stuff off duh) then I can live this that.

I do think that it's stupid that they have just made DX10.1 not work on DX10 cards.
So DX10 didn't last long.

I think 9 lasted a while. Can't u run upto Dx9.0b on an original DX9 card like and ATI 9700 Pro.

I know my 9800 Pro did it all upto 9.0b except 9.0c and HDR.
That's a long lifespan.
 
Back
Top