Active vs Inactive [H]orde Folders: We Can Do Better

A

aldamon

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 24, 2000
Messages
6,670
http://folding.extremeoverclocking.com/team_summary.php?s=&t=33

[H]orde (90% dormant)

Active 1,137 (+1 )
Inactive 10,332
Total 11,469 (+14 )
Avg PPD 641.9

I've noticed lately the efforts to recruit new members or to add boxen, but how about some efforts to get the 10k people who have already folded for [H] to start again? While I'm sure these contributions were appreciated, I can't believe 90% of our user base is dormant! Front page support would be nice. I remember they used to encourage folding on the front page more frequently. Or I could be imagining things. I've been here too long and am slightly senile now at 30. :)

>>>Now let's look at a team that must be doing something different:<<<

DL.TV (65% dormant)

Active 1,658 (+10 )
Inactive 3,003
Total 4,661 (+150 )
Avg PPD 363.5

Of course, this isn't a unique problem. Take a look at the numbers for other top teams. Is there something significant about the 90% number? Is there something systematically wrong with Folding that only 10% of people who try it with a team stay with it? I think we can do better than this and it would allow us to bury the competition even more. Imagine if 35% of our team was active?

OC AU (89% dormant):

Active 954 (-19 )
Inactive 7,491
Total 8,445 (+12 )
Avg PPD 697.0

OC.com (91% dormant)

Active 577 (+11 )
Inactive 5,736
Total 6,313 (+9 )
Avg PPD 1,061.0

Maximum PC (90% dormant)

Active 962 (+17 )
Inactive 8,114
Total 9,076 (+15 )
Avg PPD 628.0

Alliance Francophone (92% dormant)

Active 1,011 (+45 )
Inactive 12,240
Total 13,251 (+23 )
Avg PPD 266.1

The Tech Report (87% dormant)

Active 326 (-23 )
Inactive 2,084
Total 2,410 (+2 )
Avg PPD 928.3

Rage3D (94% dormant)

Active 227 (-4 )
Inactive 3,539
Total 3,766 (+1 )
Avg PPD 763.3


 
My SWAG would be that Folding isn't "glitzy" enough for the younger generation, who seem to have shorter attention spans and demand instant gratification. Folding is a long term project, not glitzy, and doesn't show tangible benefits RIGHT NOW...just my take on the matter.

I've been at it since about 2002 or so, my Lyme-induced senility is catching up with me again (no not really, I seem to be cured, but my memory just isn't the same anymore).
 
Bill Clo said:
My SWAG would be that Folding isn't "glitzy" enough for the younger generation, who seem to have shorter attention spans and demand instant gratification. Folding is a long term project, not glitzy, and doesn't show tangible benefits RIGHT NOW...just my take on the matter.

I've been at it since about 2002 or so, my Lyme-induced senility is catching up with me again (no not really, I seem to be cured, but my memory just isn't the same anymore).
Click to expand...

I agree...Just look at how much dead folders under 200,000 points vs how much at higher ranks. The big bunch is in the low ranks who stopped for various reasons like :

-Hassle to setup a client.
-Fed up with the outages.
-DC forum not active enough :(
-Not fast enough or no enough ppd to be interesting.
-Team is boring and the grass is greener elsewhere.
-Other projects has "awesome" graphics with less bugs.
-No free mojo for participating :(
-etc...

To be able to make a bunch of those guys come back, we need to find some tactics to attract them again based on this list of reasons. A few DC clowns and motivators here would help (hint, hint, relic :D)...

 
I have to say I just got back into folding for [H] after about a year absence. I upgraded my computer twice and just didn't put it back on. However I'm trying to make up for it by having all 3 of my systems going 24/7 as soon as I can aquire a power supply and another hard drive, probably by the end of the weekend.
 
I think a lot of people hear about it and give it a try, but from then on they totally forget about it. Folding@Home doesn't have the same addictive effect on everyone, and I think that's a big reason why you see a higher percentage of active users in the high-point range.
 
bigbadgreen said:
I have to say I just got back into folding for [H] after about a year absence. I upgraded my computer twice and just didn't put it back on. However I'm trying to make up for it by having all 3 of my systems going 24/7 as soon as I can aquire a power supply and another hard drive, probably by the end of the weekend.
Click to expand...

Same here, I upgraded and forgot about it until I just passed by the subforum now, for a few months. Never reinstalled it... I have my Q6600-based rig on 24/7 which could be contributing with 4GB of RAM under Vista x64. I'm going to go grab the client and set it up for the 4 cores.
 
GoldenTiger said:
Same here, I upgraded and forgot about it until I just passed by the subforum now, for a few months. Never reinstalled it... I have my Q6600-based rig on 24/7 which could be contributing with 4GB of RAM under Vista x64. I'm going to go grab the client and set it up for the 4 cores.
Click to expand...

And so it begins. Good news.


 
I've only got one box running right now, but I do have two others that I can use.
Both older AGP based P4 3g machines... one has a X1950pro 256m and the other a X1950gt 256m..... so, should I use the CPU client or the GPU?

If the GPU client would be more productive, could someone direct me towards a setup guide of some sort? I have no idea how to go about installing it..

I do have a couple older P4 2g boxes running Ubuntu and a laptop running Xubuntu. Would it be worth it to fold on these as well? And again, I honestly have no idea, at all, how to set up the Linux client, I have looked around a bit.. but, uh... I haven't really found a guide that I can understand... Any *nix folders around that might want to help out a newb??
 
I think that percentage is always going to be high, simply due to the large numbers of people that have folded for [H] at some point in time.

I don't think that 90% dormancy rate indicates that anything is changing, and that would seem to be confirmed by the similar rates at OCAU etc.

Drawing more people in may temporarily push that number down, but I have a strange feeling that 90% of new recruits would slowly drop off as well.
 
Sorry about that! I used to fold for team 33 a few years ago. I lost interest and when I started up again this year, I couldn't remember what name I was folding under. So, at least one of those is mine :eek:

I have a solution though! Everyone with multiple boxes, folds them each under a different user name. That way it looks like you have more active members! :p

You're welcome!
 
LarsonLake said:
I have a solution though! Everyone with multiple boxes, folds them each under a different user name. That way it looks like you have more active members! :p
Click to expand...
Hmmmm. That's a very interesting idea! :evilgrin: <insert evil cackle>
 
amenthes said:
I don't think that 90% dormancy rate indicates that anything is changing, and that would seem to be confirmed by the similar rates at OCAU etc.
Click to expand...

I never said I think things are changing or getting worse. I said I wanted things to get better.


amenthes said:
I think that percentage is always going to be high, simply due to the large numbers of people that have folded for [H] at some point in time.............................Drawing more people in may temporarily push that number down, but I have a strange feeling that 90% of new recruits would slowly drop off as well.
Click to expand...

In marketing, they say it takes many times more effort to get a new customer than to keep one you already had/have. I think the same could be said about people who have folded for the [H]orde in the past. It should be easier to get them back than to attract new folders. I understand the reasons for the attrition listed above, but do not accept that 10% active is the best we can do. I said above it would be amazing if we were at 35% like DL.tv, but how about just 12 or 15%?

 
I have only recently started folding. Since I am not doing much gaming at the moment, I decided to try folding and put my box to good use. I am using 1 gpu client and 1 cpu client. It is fun to watch my stats grow and move up the Team 33 list :) But...

Personally, I don't think folding is that attractive to most single-box owners because of:
- impact to overall system performance when doing other tasks
- can't compete with farms in the current points recognition system
- probably other issues I am can't think of right now
 
aldamon said:
I never said I think things are changing or getting worse. I said I wanted things to get better.
Click to expand...

I didn't mean to indicate that you said that, I was just expressing my random opinion :).
I think you're right about re-activating old members as opposed to recruiting new, I just don't know that we'll ever be able to maintain more than ~10% active for more than a short period of time. But we can certainly try!

Perhaps this has been discussed before, since I've been absent from the forums for several months, but what about creating additional "tiers" of competition? I.E. contests that run for 30 days and have different categories for CPU count... There could be a 1 CPU run-off, a 3 CPU run-off and a less than 10 CPU run-off. Prizes would be awarded to the best folder in each categoy.

Granted I'm not really putting any thought into what it would take to run this from a stats perspective, but I'm sure it can be figured out. It seems like there is a fairly large demand for some sort of motivation for the single-cpu and few-cpu folders.

Anyone think this is a good idea? Suggestions or comments about similar contests in the past?
 
I posted this question to the folks at the Intel forum and an interesting reason for not folding has come up. Several people have listed "I don't want to leave my computer on 24/7" as a reason for not folding. If this is why people are not folding, then I think there's a big perception problem. Computers don't need to be left on 24/7 to fold and I wonder where people get this idea?


 
aldamon said:
I posted this question to the folks at the Intel forum and an interesting reason for not folding has come up. Several people have listed "I don't want to leave my computer on 24/7" as a reason for not folding. If this is why people are not folding, then I think there's a big perception problem. Computers don't need to be left on 24/7 to fold and I wonder where people get this idea?


Click to expand...

aldamon, while there is plenty of infos around, I believe we need someone to write a thread to debunk myths and to attract new and old folders back. Would you be willing to write such a thread and I believe a well written thread will get us a few % back into activity, just enough to please relic or the DC gods :D
 
Xilikon said:
aldamon, while there is plenty of infos around, I believe we need someone to write a thread to debunk myths
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if it's something that needs to be debunked or if it's just an excuse so the user doesn't have to say "I could never catch Xilikon in points so I'm taking my ball and going home." I think as a priority we need to return the focus to the standard client that runs in the background. I've used it on several computers and have seen no performance impact. It's invisible. The SMP and GPU clients are too disruptive and buggy and I think scare people away.

Maybe we could get Kyle to run some benchmarks to show the impact each version client has on everyday of a system?




 
aldamon said:
I'm not sure if it's something that needs to be debunked or if it's just an excuse so the user doesn't have to say "I could never catch Xilikon in points so I'm taking my ball and going home." I think as a priority we need to return the focus to the standard client that runs in the background. I've used it on several computers and have seen no performance impact. It's invisible. The SMP and GPU clients are too disruptive and buggy and I think scare people away.

Maybe we could get Kyle to run some benchmarks to show the impact each version client has on everyday of a system?




Click to expand...

:p on the "I could never catch Xilikon in points so I'm taking my ball and going home." and I guess I need to stop scaring folders :eek:

About the benchmark, I doubt Kyle would do this but if someone with some excellent methodology want to do this, it would be truly welcome. With some luck (and my persuasion), it might be published by Kyle on the front page for some awesome myth debunking.

Time to become mythbusters :D
 
I started folding again a few weeks ago after a very long hiatus (I think it was SETI in the late 90's). I'm having lots of fun trying to overtake one particular person... I have all the processors sitting around here folding (10 of them...), and I can't seem to overtake his 2. Guess I need to overclock a couple more systems :D

Charlie
 
Charlie_D said:
I started folding again a few weeks ago after a very long hiatus (I think it was SETI in the late 90's). I'm having lots of fun trying to overtake one particular person... I have all the processors sitting around here folding (10 of them...), and I can't seem to overtake his 2. Guess I need to overclock a couple more systems :D

Charlie
Click to expand...

:D




 
Charlie_D said:
I started folding again a few weeks ago after a very long hiatus (I think it was SETI in the late 90's). I'm having lots of fun trying to overtake one particular person... I have all the processors sitting around here folding (10 of them...), and I can't seem to overtake his 2. Guess I need to overclock a couple more systems :D

Charlie
Click to expand...

Depending on how old the systems are, you might be ahead by sellling most of them off and buying one or 2 modern machines...probably save on the power bill as well.

Example: I just retired an Socket 754 A6400 3400 (2.4ghz). Good producer, but uses 130w power. For 140w, I can put in an overclocked C2D (3ghz), or an Q6600 (mildly OC'd quad at 2.6ghz)...and produce about 12x the daily points using the SMP client - or 4x the daily points with the C2D.
 
Looking at team stats I can see that a whopping 55% of team members failed to reach even 2K points. Obviously there are a large number of people who try folding and decide rather quickly it is not for them.

I think the interesting group are folders that participated for an extended period of time and then quit. Obviously they were interested enough to stick with it, were able to get past any technical hurdles and thought the personal cost was worth it.
 
Well, there's the laptop (an old r3240ca, running at 1.6Ghz... I could run it at 2.0, but it gets way, way too hot)

my PVR (x2 3600 overclocked to 2.6), running 2x instances
the secondary PVR in the basement (3500+ running stock)
My desktop rig (x2 4400 939, oc'd to 2.51), also running 2x instances. I've considered running the SMP version instead, but I've heard conflicting things about the SMP client on a dual core system. Not to mention, I'd need to install the 64bit OS. Not a problem, just a bit of a bigger hassle :p
my three spares are Athlon XPs, a 2000, 2600 and a 2700. Neither of those are overclocked, they just chug along

Well, I guess that's only 9 :)
and ermm, yeah I like AMD I guess... I'm due to upgrade my main rig soon, so those parts'll be bumped down to one of the XP systems.

Oh, they're all running Fedora 7 - that's why I commented that I'd need to install a 64bit OS version above.


Charlie
 
Charlie_D said:
my PVR (x2 3600 overclocked to 2.6), running 2x instances
...
My desktop rig (x2 4400 939, oc'd to 2.51), also running 2x instances. I've considered running the SMP version instead, but I've heard conflicting things about the SMP client on a dual core system. Not to mention, I'd need to install the 64bit OS. Not a problem, just a bit of a bigger hassle :p
Click to expand...

SMP client runs fine on dual-cores. The problems I've heard were that it comes very close to missing deadlines on the lower chips (3600, 3800), but even with those it does just fine. Especially with yours overclocked as they are, you won't have any problems.

The 64-bit OS is a more valid reason, but you could always install VMWare Server for Linux and virtualize the 64-bit distro as a guest, with only a minimal penalty. You'd still blow your double instances off the continent. :p
The funnier part is that I suspect your 3600 would significantly outproduce your 4400 in that setup, because of the hardware virtualization that AMD added in AM2.
 
aldamon said:
In marketing, they say it takes many times more effort to get a new customer than to keep one you already had/have. I think the same could be said about people who have folded for the [H]orde in the past. It should be easier to get them back than to attract new folders. I understand the reasons for the attrition listed above, but do not accept that 10% active is the best we can do. I said above it would be amazing if we were at 35% like DL.tv, but how about just 12 or 15%?

Click to expand...

One of the catches with most marketing is that there is some kind of lock-in; companies work to make switching to other products uncomfortable/unnerving/scary/impossible. This isn't the case with folding - people can leave and not suffer any issues. I don't think that there is a solution for this.

The other issue, of course, is that some people get fed up with [H] and move all their machines to other teams, which makes it appear as though there are lots of dormant folders, but in actuality they are just with other teams.

 
So no one has any comments on my idea for some contests to motivate the small-cpu count folder??

amenthes said:
Perhaps this has been discussed before, since I've been absent from the forums for several months, but what about creating additional "tiers" of competition? I.E. contests that run for 30 days and have different categories for CPU count... There could be a 1 CPU run-off, a 3 CPU run-off and a less than 10 CPU run-off. Prizes would be awarded to the best folder in each categoy.

...It seems like there is a fairly large demand for some sort of motivation for the single-cpu and few-cpu folders.
Click to expand...
 
Well I know nothing about folding or whatever it is. But most of my 6 computers are either older 1.2 ghz single amd or 1 ghz dual intel cpu servers. So they would not help much if at all.
 
DamienThorn said:
The other issue, of course, is that some people get fed up with [H] and move all their machines to other teams, which makes it appear as though there are lots of dormant folders, but in actuality they are just with other teams.
Click to expand...

At least switching teams is a more acceptable alternative to quitting altogether. The teams are fun and all but we are doing this for the greater good. The anonymity of the database is a weakness for sure if you're trying to decipher statistics.

amenthes said:
So no one has any comments on my idea for some contests to motivate the small-cpu count folder??
Click to expand...

I think it's a good idea but I'm having a hard time figuring out how it would work with the current stat site.

crewzen said:
Well I know nothing about folding or whatever it is. But most of my 6 computers are either older 1.2 ghz single amd or 1 ghz dual intel cpu servers. So they would not help much if at all.
Click to expand...

If those servers are running 24/7 anyway, why not fold with the standard client and give them something to do? In the past I have discouraged people from turning on old hardware just to fold, but if the stuff is running anyway, contribute my friend.

 
crewzen said:
Well I know nothing about folding or whatever it is. But most of my 6 computers are either older 1.2 ghz single amd or 1 ghz dual intel cpu servers. So they would not help much if at all.
Click to expand...

They will be still useful and we need more boxes :)
 
I folded for a bit a while back and stopped for over two years. I think it was when I reformatted my machine and just forgot about it since it always ran automatically. I just got back in to show up a friend who was bragging about computing power, and I just didn't have a reason to stop one I passed him.
 
ILAMtitan said:
I folded for a bit a while back and stopped for over two years. I think it was when I reformatted my machine and just forgot about it since it always ran automatically. I just got back in to show up a friend who was bragging about computing power, and I just didn't have a reason to stop one I passed him.
Click to expand...

That's the spirit :D
 
Spazilton said:
I contribute what I can. I have my PS3 folding full time..
Click to expand...

That's a huge contribution. Thank you. The PS3 kicks ass and it's so easy to fold with it. If only the SMP client could be that user friendly.

 
aldamon said:
That's a huge contribution. Thank you. The PS3 kicks ass and it's so easy to fold with it. If only the SMP client could be that user friendly.

Click to expand...

If only the X Box 360 could fold (without any mods) and if only the 360 was built with quality in mind so that it could run 24/7. And don't bash me... I speak the truth! :D I plan to buy myself (okay, my kids) a 360 later this year. No Sony for me. I could bash Sony if you like. ;)
 
I'm planning on adding all 4 systems in my sig here soon. I just have some issues to work out first..
 
One Quad working 24/7, another coming this weekend, and an X2 4000+ coming just as soon as XPCGear carries the MA69G-S2H...

I feel kinda bad that I'm wasting an AIW X1900 though... :( I don't have any idle CPU's that I can pair it with...
 
aldamon said:
I think it's a good idea but I'm having a hard time figuring out how it would work with the current stat site.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't depend on HardFolding, for a small-medium (<50) number of contestants the numbers can manually be pulled from the Stanford site and entered into an excel sheet. This method has been used in the past. Someone has to devote a little time to running the contest, but its really not much.

I'm sure there are a ton of details to work out, I'm just trying to get some dialog going to see if we can come up with some way to motivate people. There used to be a LOT more contest action around here.
 
amenthes said:
It wouldn't depend on HardFolding, for a small-medium (<50) number of contestants the numbers can manually be pulled from the Stanford site and entered into an excel sheet. This method has been used in the past. Someone has to devote a little time to running the contest, but its really not much.

I'm sure there are a ton of details to work out, I'm just trying to get some dialog going to see if we can come up with some way to motivate people. There used to be a LOT more contest action around here.
Click to expand...

There will be new contests soon, be assured ;) It's even a "contestsfest" but we need to get our fill of prizes first :)
 
Xilikon said:
There will be new contests soon, be assured ;) It's even a "contestsfest" but we need to get our fill of prizes first :)
Click to expand...

Sorry, wasn't aware anything had been planned. It just seemed like everyone was wondering about driving new membership/retaining members, so i thought I'd throw in my two cents. I'm more than willing to help out with things if you have a need; I've been away for the summer but I'm back around the forums for the winter :)
 
I propose a new countdown similar to the new boxen thread. When I started this thread, we had 10,332 inactive users. Now we have 10,323. Will that continue to drop as we approach cooler weather and everyone goes back to school, etc? We'll see but it will be a fun countdown.

10,323

 
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