Panel debate

Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
594
I've noticed from what I've read in here there's quite a debate about panels.

Is P-MVA a preferred panel, and is this going to make a pretty good gaming monitor with a 8800GTS 640 driving it?

Acer AL2051W Black/Silver 20" 8ms DVI Widescreen LCD Monitor 300 cd/m2 800:1

It's only 200 bucks, it seems like a really good deal to me what do you guys have to say about it?
 
As long as you don't play multi-player FPS games (cause of the awful input lag).
 
As long as you don't play multi-player FPS games (cause of the awful input lag).

Hrm, well I'd definitely want the option to play multiplayer FPS games. This type of panel has input lag that's that noticeable despite it's "8ms"?

I'd heard that response time wasn't really such an issue anymore that is wrong?
 
it basically isnt it seems. theres overdrive that reduces ghosting and just about any panel isnt bad for response times. tn panels are cheapie and always easy in this category but I think if someone was on this forum, they are looking for more and would pay for it. I was talking to toastyx for a long time last night. picked his brain. got about 20% of the info out of it which is more than anything I have read actually :)

I put that info with Jim Robbins posts (i think thats his name) who did 24" 3 monitor showdown, benq, dell, lg, and came up with a nice composite to draw upon a conclusion.

Input lag is important if you notice it. Dells, according to toasty, typically suck in this manner so that's out. PVA has nice black tints. A-MVA has, as it least it seems, the same basic nice pva tints. Really seeing less difference between the two but the mva's seem to be better in more categories for some unknown reason. Input lag is everything for people that hate lag it seems from toastyx. he said though that many dont notice it at all on terribly laggy monitors. he's the pickiest guy on this forum by a factor of 2-4x so I just read all he wrote and figured that I couldnt probably see myself the Benq's lag vs the lg. I am goign to try and test an LG out in a best buy if possible.
 
it basically isnt it seems. theres overdrive that reduces ghosting and just about any panel isnt bad for response times. tn panels are cheapie and always easy in this category but I think if someone was on this forum, they are looking for more and would pay for it. I was talking to toastyx for a long time last night. picked his brain. got about 20% of the info out of it which is more than anything I have read actually :)

I put that info with Jim Robbins posts (i think thats his name) who did 24" 3 monitor showdown, benq, dell, lg, and came up with a nice composite to draw upon a conclusion.

Input lag is important if you notice it. Dells, according to toasty, typically suck in this manner so that's out. PVA has nice black tints. A-MVA has, as it least it seems, the same basic nice pva tints. Really seeing less difference between the two but the mva's seem to be better in more categories for some unknown reason. Input lag is everything for people that hate lag it seems from toastyx. he said though that many dont notice it at all on terribly laggy monitors. he's the pickiest guy on this forum by a factor of 2-4x so I just read all he wrote and figured that I couldnt probably see myself the Benq's lag vs the lg. I am goign to try and test an LG out in a best buy if possible.

Hrm, perhaps I'm going to have to go into a brick and mortar and check out some different LCD's. How're you going to get input lag a good test if you can't game on the thing though?
 
I think you need to have input lag measurements on a per model basis. VA models typically have the worst input lag, but that is not to say that some VA's are not better than others.

I consider P-MVA and A-MVA to be better than S-PVA because of their less-severe color shifting. I'd rather have anything other than a TN. I don't like TN's blacks, dithering and viewing angle.
 
I see.

Man, I am still running a CRT, and LCD's seem to have such a wide variety of cons to sift through before purchasing.

I think anything better than this P-MVA is probably out of my price range, so thx this info helps my confidence.
 
can anyone describe how to tell what kind of panel a monitor has? I'm on a dell 20"right now at work, and honestly the blacks on this thing are rival to my CRT and it looks just fine, I haven't tried gaming on it or anything, but it doesn't look as bad as most seem to make TN displays sound.

TN's don't have enough input lag to make a difference in gaming do they? If that's the case, I may just have to sacrifice the blacks and go TN.

What a tough decision!
 
If you stand above a TN and look down on it, or if you are below a TN and look up at it, you won't be able to see anything.

If you move very far to the side of a VA panel, it will lighten.

If the panel looks about the same no matter where you're viewing from, you've got an IPS.

TN's and IPS's don't have very much input lag. Also, you may feel that the blacks on your LCD rival your CRT, but that is a very erronous conclusion. If you view an LCD in a low-light environment, or side by side with a CRT or plasma, it will be very apparent that the blacks are actually quite poor. I assume that your workplace is well-lit.
 
I wish I had never even heard of input lag.. I probably wouldn't normally notice the millisecond timings of the lag normally, but now that I know about it I will subconsiously be looking for any microscopic difference between mouse movement and response constantly on any LCD I get! :eek:
 
If you stand above a TN and look down on it, or if you are below a TN and look up at it, you won't be able to see anything.

If you move very far to the side of a VA panel, it will lighten.

If the panel looks about the same no matter where you're viewing from, you've got an IPS.

TN's and IPS's don't have very much input lag. Also, you may feel that the blacks on your LCD rival your CRT, but that is a very erronous conclusion. If you view an LCD in a low-light environment, or side by side with a CRT or plasma, it will be very apparent that the blacks are actually quite poor. I assume that your workplace is well-lit.

Yeah it's moot, I tried changing my viewing angles and it appears I have an IPS.

I'm really thinking I should just wait until the 226CW Sammy comes out. That would appear to have the preferred color of the IPS, but with very low input lag and a fast response time... if I'm reading correctly.

Do you know? Thanks a ton for stickin with me Scyles, I appreciate it.

I've been searching through the display forum for a while and mostly just confusing myself because it seems to be a very opinion based topic. Some people seem to argue on behalf of TN's while most people think they really suck. It's a mite confusing.
 
I don't know a lot about the 226CW. From what I've read, it appears to be a TN panel with an upgraded backlight and better contrast. The backlight, Samsung claims, gives the monitor a wider color gamut. If what I've read is correct, its still a TN, so its still 6-bit with dithering. This means that it is still inferior to all the other panel technologies, which are true 8-bit, as far as color is concerned.

You have the right idea about people and their opinions. Most people here favor IPS panels with good reason, but they're expensive. The average consumer does not find TN's dithered colors to be a problem. I use have a TN display and a DLP projector that has the same 6-bit plus dithering as TN's. I am really not bothered by the TN's colors until I start doing graphics work or playing games. While watching movies, I notice that the TN doesn't reproduce light blooms very well, and sometimes I notice excessive pinkish or yellow hues in people's faces. When it comes to games, I find TN's to have the worst detail in dark greys and blacks. Dark games are a problem and games that use HDR and bloom lighting look worse.

That Acer you're considering looks like one of the best LCD's for the price, but I don't know if input lag is a problem on that model or not.
 
I play FPS shooters just fine with PVA LCDs like the Aquos, Dell 2407, etc.

Some people who are complaining about input lag in FPS perhaps just...suck ;)
 
I've logged a couple hundred hours of gaming on my S-PVA. I didn't notice any input lag and I'm awesome :cool:

I think you'd have to be a real expert, like one of those AMD sponsored gamers, or just have a really awful panel to have input lag affect you badly.
 
I have the 21" widescreen Gateway FPD2185W. I bought it as part of a big computer upgrade for Oblivion. I don't recommend it. Its got some nasty black crush and color shifting when viewing dark colors. I use it as a secondary monitor now.
 
Question: your LG 246... how is scaling on it? does it add the proper black bars to the top and bottom when you hook a hdmi cable from a source such as a blu-ray player or ps3?
 
~El~Jefe~ said:
Input lag is important if you notice it. Dells, according to toasty, typically suck in this manner so that's out.
I didn't mean Dell monitors in general. I was talking about the Dell 2405FPW. The Dell 3007WFP has almost no lag.
 
I didn't mean Dell monitors in general. I was talking about the Dell 2405FPW. The Dell 3007WFP has almost no lag.

Which is again S-PVA vs. S-IPS and has nothing to do with Dell. You really should be more precise because it sounded like "Dell monitors are laggier than competition."

I wonder how this 2407WFP-HC will be in this regard (I really hope it'll turn out to have an A-MVA panel because LG 24" is not available here and Benq has some issues).
 
ijozic said:
Which is again S-PVA vs. S-IPS and has nothing to do with Dell. You really should be more precise because it sounded like "Dell monitors are laggier than competition."
~El~Jefe~ put it that way, not me.

Teknikallysekure said:
Yeah I've heard good things about the 2007WFP, and I'm considering investing in that. You have any experience with that one?
I don't have any experience with the 2007WFP, and I haven't seen anyone do a lag test with it.
 
I guess another question would be, are the TN panels better about input lag?

Input lag is not a result of the TYPE of panel be it a TN, PMVA, SIPS etc. but rather it is a result of the hardware/circuitry that is used on the monitor which is why lcd's with the same type of panel often test with different input lag results.
 
Input lag is not a result of the TYPE of panel be it a TN, PMVA, SIPS etc. but rather it is a result of the hardware/circuitry that is used on the monitor which is why lcd's with the same type of panel often test with different input lag results.

Finally got that, thanks for your time. Really makes this decision process quite a gamble. I hate gambling with my money!
 
Well, assuming any of you are interested I ended up jumping on the Ace P-Mva, I'll drop a note when I get it how input lag/color/viewing angle is for me.

Coming off of 6 years of beautiful viewsonic CRt made for gaming, so I'll have a good comparison.
 
Well, assuming any of you are interested I ended up jumping on the Ace P-Mva, I'll drop a note when I get it how input lag/color/viewing angle is for me.

Coming off of 6 years of beautiful viewsonic CRt made for gaming, so I'll have a good comparison.

Please do, I'll be interested to see what you have to say about it. I myself am going to be replacing my G400 CRT this fall and am still wrestling with which LCD to get. TN panels are absolute garbage and I have no idea how this is acceptable to anyone, especially hardware enthusiasts and gamers who spend hundreds of dollars on video cards to view it on such a shitty display. Even the "best" like the Samsung 226BWs are crap, imo.
 
Well, assuming any of you are interested I ended up jumping on the Ace P-Mva, I'll drop a note when I get it how input lag/color/viewing angle is for me.

Coming off of 6 years of beautiful viewsonic CRt made for gaming, so I'll have a good comparison.

Well congrats on your purchase although I dont know which acer you bought or what size it is.

To both you and Serpico........I was a late comer to lcd's holding onto crt for dear life until a year ago. I can tell you that the switch is WELL WORTH IT, no more eyestrain brought on from crt flicker and what not, LCD's are alot easier on your eyes, the lcd's are very bright and you will probably want to decrease the brightness by 50 percent or more, this will also lengthen it's life. My first lcd was a samsung TN 19 inch panel, the venerable 930b, I have recently upgraded to my first PMVA panel the LG246wpbn and it's a GREAT LCD MONITOR.

TN TO PMVA........ viewing angles are poor on TN panels, this isnt to say the panels are total shit, they arent, but PMVA panels have much better viewing angles, mine has very little light leakage and the blacks are CRT like, PMVA as I understand it is a nice happy medium between the issues on SPVA and SIPS panels. ALso PMVA panels are 8 bit

INPUT LAG as we already discussed is due to the hardware used with the lcd panel, not the type of lcd panel and when purchasing a 24 inch or larger panel input lag is an important thing to consider which is why it is always helpful to do research in these forums before buying a particular LCD monitor to see what others have to say about it before making the purchase.

Please update us when you get your monitor, you may have some setup problems and calibration to get the picture just the way you like it. Out of the box almost all LCD's are too bright and you will want to turn the brightness down to a more comfortable level.
 
Please do, I'll be interested to see what you have to say about it. I myself am going to be replacing my G400 CRT this fall and am still wrestling with which LCD to get. TN panels are absolute garbage and I have no idea how this is acceptable to anyone, especially hardware enthusiasts and gamers who spend hundreds of dollars on video cards to view it on such a shitty display. Even the "best" like the Samsung 226BWs are crap, imo.


I have yet to see ANY 22 inch panel that is not a TN panel, I dont think there are any. You might want to explore a 24 inch panel, with all the problems associated with the 22's on the market I pulled the plug on the idea of a 22 and went up to a 24, well worth the extra money, I bought an LG246WPBN one of the best 24s you can get, certainly the lowest input lag of the bunch, same lcd panel as used in the benq without any of the benq problems some users have had although I have heard good things about the benq model, I bought my LG at best buy, A firm believer here in the savy brick and mortar purchase, most online retailers wont let you return lcds, best buy and circuity city have zero dead pixel return policies which makes purchasing at a local store more attractive and certainly alot cheaper if you do need to return a monitor plus UPS? are you kidding? I wouldnt want to risk shipping damage. Just my two cents
 
To both you and Serpico........I was a late comer to lcd's holding onto crt for dear life until a year ago. I can tell you that the switch is WELL WORTH IT, no more eyestrain brought on from crt flicker and what not, LCD's are alot easier on your eyes, the lcd's are very bright and you will probably want to decrease the brightness by 50 percent or more, this will also lengthen it's life. My first lcd was a samsung TN 19 inch panel, the venerable 930b, I have recently upgraded to my first PMVA panel the LG246wpbn and it's a GREAT LCD MONITOR.

I have had a 23" LCD on my Mac desktop for five years now. I just can't stand TN panels, and I understand that IPS panels up until recently had issues with ghosting in fast FPS games. I tested Quake 3 on my Mac years ago and I couldn't get past the ghosting on the otherwise great display (fantastic for desktop, photo editing, and video editing work).

So yeah, I'm not at all against getting an LCD, I just want the right one, and it doesn't have to be a shitty TN LCD either. Cost isn't an issue for me; I'd easily pay twice as much as the Samsung 226BWs (supposedly the best for gaming) for something that didn't dither, have noticeable backlight unevenness, and crap viewing angles.

I will check out the LG you mentioned though. Sounds good.
 
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