2900XT AA Performance in Oblivion, Fraps Screens and Results

B

Blackstone

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
3,580
System:

Silverstone TJ07
ASUS P5W DH Deluxe
Core2Duo E6660 @ 3.4 Ghz
2 GIG OCZ Gold XTC DDR2 1000 1:1 Cas 3
PC Power & Cooling Silencer 750 Quad PSU

ATI HD2900XT 512 MEG @ 818Mhz | 858 Mhz Stock Cooler, Driver 8.38 RC7

HDR ENABLED, ALL SETTINGS MAXED AND ENABLED
1680 x 1050 Resolution

BOX FILTER 2X
Box.jpg

BOX FILTER 4X
box.jpg

BOX FILTER 8X
box8x.jpg

NARROW TENT FILTER 2X (4X SAMPLES)
narrowtent.jpg

NARROW TENT FILTER 4X ( 6X SAMPLES)
narrowtent-1.jpg

NARROW TENT FILTER 8X (12X SAPLES)
narrowtent-2.jpg

WIDE TENT FILTER 2X (6X SAMPLES)
widetent.jpg

WIDE TENT FILTER 4X (8X SAMPLES)
[
widetent-1.jpg

WIDE TENT FILTER 8X (16 X SAMPLES)
widetent-2.jpg
 
With so much vegetation, I can't really tell the difference between the pics or have the pics been resized?
 
alg7_munif said:
With so much vegetation, I can't really tell the difference between the pics or have the pics been resized?
Click to expand...

I think photobucket resizes them. They were 1680 x 1050 bitmap but now they are 1024 x 768 jpeg. No way to avoid that though. Note that it is hard to tell the difference in game as well. It is very subtle. I'm not sure these screen shots can bring out the difference. Look at the tree bark I think you can see a difference there.
I might do it again looking at one of the big cathedrals.

Is there any place I can host really big image files?
 
The top image, 2X boxed actually looks the best. The shadows on the hillside look great, get washed out in the other settings.
 
xX_Jack_Carver_Xx said:
The top image, 2X boxed actually looks the best. The shadows on the hillside look great, get washed out in the other settings.
Click to expand...

Hey I didn't notice that before. But they aren't washed out in the other photos, it looks like they just aren't there at all to me. The sun might have moved or something but I took them all within over the course of a minute or so.
 
xX_Jack_Carver_Xx said:
The top image, 2X boxed actually looks the best. The shadows on the hillside look great, get washed out in the other settings.
Click to expand...

Wow, you can pick up the details, I didn't even notice it but I can tell you that in the first picture, the tree at bottom left of the screen has 3 leaves more than the second pic and 2 leaves less than the third ;) Just kidding
 
jmackay said:
Oh wow.. it looks like most shadows are completely gone (tree trunk and hill)
Click to expand...

Well the shadows are on and I didn't change the settings so I don't think I goofed the test.

Edit: Actually, it might be my error, because if you look at the tree bark, it seems like the light is hitting the tree from a different angle in the first picture or something, and then all the rest are the same. It is almost like a shadow is being cast on the tree in the first picture but not the rest. So I wonder if I let too much time lapse between the first photo and the rest, but it couldn't have been that much I did them all in a row. It looks like the shadows are just not in the other ones though. Very strange, I'll have to play with it more later and keep an eye out for the shadows.
 
Blackstone said:
Well the shadows are on and I didn't change the settings so I don't think I goofed the test.

Edit: Actually, it might be my error, because if you look at the tree bark, it seems like the light is hitting the tree from a different angle in the first picture or something, and then all the rest are the same. It is almost like a shadow is being cast on the tree in the first picture but not the rest. So I wonder if I let too much time lapse between the first photo and the rest, but it couldn't have been that much I did them all in a row. It looks like the shadows are just not in the other ones though. Very strange, I'll have to play with it more later and keep an eye out for the shadows.
Click to expand...

Maybe there is a cloud in the sky :D . Actually in F1 Championship Edition on PS3, the clouds and the sun does make a difference in the game.
 
alg7_munif said:
Maybe there is a cloud in the sky :D . Actually in F1 Championship Edition on PS3, the clouds and the sun does make a difference in the game.
Click to expand...

Hah! I dunno everything seems brighter when the shadows are gone so that doesn't make much sense.:D
 
Blackstone said:
Well the shadows are on and I didn't change the settings so I don't think I goofed the test.

Edit: Actually, it might be my error, because if you look at the tree bark, it seems like the light is hitting the tree from a different angle in the first picture or something, and then all the rest are the same. It is almost like a shadow is being cast on the tree in the first picture but not the rest. So I wonder if I let too much time lapse between the first photo and the rest, but it couldn't have been that much I did them all in a row. It looks like the shadows are just not in the other ones though. Very strange, I'll have to play with it more later and keep an eye out for the shadows.
Click to expand...

Yeah if you could see if shadows work at all with the other AA modes that would be great :)
 
alg7_munif said:
Actually in F1 Championship Edition on PS3, the clouds and the sun does make a difference in the game.
Click to expand...
In Oblivion, there is no difference. The canopy shadow is actually cast throughout the entire cycle (yeah - even at night). It moves around a bit, but it should always render regardless of the time of day, and in around the same position.

Bring down the console (~) and type in "set timescale to 0" in the console sans quotation marks. This will eliminate time from passing, and grass and canopy shadows from moving at all, but leaves will still move around.

EDIT: Oh, and canopy shadows can't be disabled in any way other than editing the INI, so this looks like a render bug to me.
 
phide said:
In Oblivion, there is no difference. The canopy shadow is actually cast throughout the entire cycle (yeah - even at night). It moves around a bit, but it should always render regardless of the time of day, and in around the same position.

Bring down the console (~) and type in "set timescale to 0" in the console sans quotation marks. This will eliminate time from passing, and grass and canopy shadows from moving at all, but leaves will still move around.

EDIT: Oh, and canopy shadows can't be disabled in any way other than editing the INI, so this looks like a render bug to me.
Click to expand...

It looks that way!
 
All of the pictures look almost exactly the same. Why would anyone want to play at 8X when 2x looks just as good?
 
Karma said:
All of the pictures look almost exactly the same. Why would anyone want to play at 8X when 2x looks just as good?
Click to expand...

That's what I'm wondering. I can't see any aliasing in any of those images, although that might just be the fault of the re-sized and compressed images.
 
Joga said:
That's what I'm wondering. I can't see any aliasing in any of those images, although that might just be the fault of the re-sized and compressed images.
Click to expand...

Actually, it is hard to spot aliasing with the 2x mode engaged in person too. It is more obvious when you get closer to the towns--the aliasing is more pronounced on the edges of buildings and fences and stuff like that. In that case the difference between 2x and 4x is more pronounced and you can also see the difference between the filters.

The point I was trying to make with these screen shots has more to do with the framerates, which are extremely low. Of course, there is a lot going on in this screen shot so of course there is going to be some slowdown. But you'd think a $400 next gen card could do better than 2xaa in Oblivion even in the most demanding scenes The tent filters claim to give you more samples but I'm not convinced I like it.

I will say that this card really takes things to the next level coming from an X1800XT--things really look and play terrific, but you know in BF2 with 4x aa my frames were dipping into the 40's tonight and that is just not impressive for a card priced like this. It just feels underpowered, it doesn't really seem that much better than the X1000 series.
 
Blackstone said:
I think photobucket resizes them. They were 1680 x 1050 bitmap but now they are 1024 x 768 jpeg. No way to avoid that though. Note that it is hard to tell the difference in game as well. It is very subtle. I'm not sure these screen shots can bring out the difference. Look at the tree bark I think you can see a difference there.
I might do it again looking at one of the big cathedrals.

Is there any place I can host really big image files?
Click to expand...

You could convert them to JPG or PNG (24 bit) yourself, though. Sigh. :rolleyes:

Since the anti-aliasing is all about small differences at the edges of objects, this re-sized effect on the images makes them 100% useless. Resizing will resample the image and automatically "anti-alias" it, to a degree. If you still have the original BMPs, it would be best to start over.

Photobucket is obviously not going to let you host a huge uncompressed filesize like a 1680x1050 BMP has. Does photobucket have a maximum displayable resolution and/or filesize limits? It might auto-resize them, or maybe you have to turn off the resizing in your photobucket account options.

Try using http://www.imageshack.us and convert them to JPG or PNG *before* you upload.
 
Blackstone said:
I think photobucket resizes them. They were 1680 x 1050 bitmap but now they are 1024 x 768 jpeg. No way to avoid that though. Note that it is hard to tell the difference in game as well. It is very subtle. I'm not sure these screen shots can bring out the difference. Look at the tree bark I think you can see a difference there.
I might do it again looking at one of the big cathedrals.

Is there any place I can host really big image files?
Click to expand...

http://www.freeimagehosting.net/
 
Use PNG if you can as it is lossless and even maxed JPG quality will compress a bit.
 
capable heart said:
You could convert them to JPG or PNG (24 bit) yourself, though. Sigh. :rolleyes:

Since the anti-aliasing is all about small differences at the edges of objects, this re-sized effect on the images makes them 100% useless. Resizing will resample the image and automatically "anti-alias" it, to a degree. If you still have the original BMPs, it would be best to start over.

Photobucket is obviously not going to let you host a huge uncompressed filesize like a 1680x1050 BMP has. Does photobucket have a maximum displayable resolution and/or filesize limits? It might auto-resize them, or maybe you have to turn off the resizing in your photobucket account options.

Try using http://www.imageshack.us and convert them to JPG or PNG *before* you upload.
Click to expand...


I did convert before I uploaded. I converted to JPEG, but I think photobucket has a maximum resolution of 1024 by 768. I'm looking for a host for the bigger files. My intention was to show how the modes effect frame rates--I did screenies for credibility purposes but the image quality comparison is useful of course so I'll work it out. Even the PNG files are like 3mb i can't find a host that will allow photos that size.
 
Blackstone said:
I did convert before I uploaded. I converted to JPEG, but I think photobucket has a maximum resolution of 1024 by 768. I'm looking for a host for the bigger files. My intention was to show how the modes effect frame rates--I did screenies for credibility purposes but the image quality comparison is useful of course so I'll work it out. Even the PNG files are like 3mb i can't find a host that will allow photos that size.
Click to expand...

You could try cropping the picture in places you notice a difference between the settings as well, or just chop them into 2 or 4 pieces so they aren't resized.
 
could try posting them at my site. to the best of my knowledge they won't be resized.


http://imageupload.game-files.net



if you could post some new pics we may be able to tell a difference. as it is im not seeing anything significant. altho i am not the most clear sighted person in the world.



update: made max filesize 5MB instead of 1MB
 
CEREAL_KILLER said:
could try posting them at my site. to the best of my knowledge they won't be resized.


http://imageupload.game-files.net



if you could post some new pics we may be able to tell a difference. as it is im not seeing anything significant. altho i am not the most clear sighted person in the world.



update: made max filesize 5MB instead of 1MB
Click to expand...

Alright I will.

Update: I lost the original image files when I did a clean install of windows last night. I had to fix a soundblaster bug so I did a reinstall. I'll redo the tests and upload better quality files when the official 8.38 drivers come out. They should be out within a week. The drivers I have now claim to be 8.38 RC7 but who knows what they really are. I'd rather test it again with the real deal.
 
8800 left vs 2900XT right. All in game settings maximum. 1680x1050 PNG format.

Maximum G80 16SSAA vs R600 16x Box AA



Maximum G80 16SSAA vs R600 24x Wide Tent AA

 
FORNOWAGAIN said:
8800 left vs 2900XT right. All in game settings maximum. 1680x1050 PNG format.

Maximum G80 16SSAA vs R600 16x Box AA



Maximum G80 16SSAA vs R600 24x Wide Tent AA

Click to expand...


Holy cow it is like night and day. You can really see the blur in the 24x Wide Tent and the G80's 16SSAA is as sharp as can be. Wow. Excellent job, thank you!

I wish we had the frame rates too.
 
FPS aside I don't it would matter much. Not with quality looking that different. Kinda hard to take a screenshot w/ the fps, as the computer will more than likely slow when the screenshot is taken, thus lowering the fps.
 
Is it just my imagination, or is HDR not on in the ATI box screenshot, it definatley doesn't have the rich colors of the nv one, the bump maps look flat on the brick in the ati shot but not on th nv one.
 
Sniper_Merc said:
Is it just my imagination, or is HDR not on in the ATI box screenshot, it definatley doesn't have the rich colors of the nv one, the bump maps look flat on the brick in the ati shot but not on th nv one.
Click to expand...

Yeah either HDR or Shadows aren't working correctly.
 
Saxie said:
FPS aside I don't it would matter much. Not with quality looking that different. Kinda hard to take a screenshot w/ the fps, as the computer will more than likely slow when the screenshot is taken, thus lowering the fps.
Click to expand...
I don't think either would be playable, anyway - especially not on the XT.

There's no question the GTX is rendering the scene beautifully, though. It's a slide show, no doubt, but it's still pretty fuckin' nice.

Sniper_Merc said:
Is it just my imagination, or is HDR not on in the ATI box screenshot, it definatley doesn't have the rich colors of the nv one, the bump maps look flat on the brick in the ati shot but not on th nv one.
Click to expand...
Looks like bump mapping is working, but the filtering is destroying the effect by making it so blurry. HDR seems to be working as well. The exposure level is different between the two shots because the camera has moved, which will influence the degree of blooming. You can tell HDR is on because the skybox is not really well designed for HDR - it's overblown pretty much no matter what. Lazy-ass Bethesda.

I can't believe how incredibly blurry the box and tent filters are making the scene. I can't understand why anyone would use such high levels when 2x and 4x seem to do the job without such an incredible amount of blurring (but still with ghastly performance).
 
FORNOWAGAIN said:
8800 left vs 2900XT right. All in game settings maximum. 1680x1050 PNG format.

Maximum G80 16SSAA vs R600 16x Box AA



Maximum G80 16SSAA vs R600 24x Wide Tent AA

Click to expand...

I really don't understand why ATI developed these kinds of filters. The Wide Tent especially, looks absolutely horrible.
I worked for nearly two years, in video editing and video source image reparation/processing and blur is NOT something you use often. In fact, you should avoid it, unless it's really necessary (which in some cases, it is).
 
I actually like the blurry effect, the game looks more like a movie, when the image is too sharp, it look too artificial to me. Actually compairing the two screen shots, I like the one rendered by R600 more because the image is more blur in the distance than the image rendered by the 8800GTX which is stil sharp even the object is far away. I hope that there will be a solution that will make the image sharp when near and blurry in the distance.
 
alg7_munif said:
I actually like the blurry effect, the game looks more like a movie, when the image is too sharp, it look too artificial to me. Actually compairing the two screen shots, I like the one rendered by R600 more because the image is more blur in the distance than the image rendered by the 8800GTX which is stil sharp even the object is far away. I hope that there will be a solution that will make the image sharp when near and blurry in the distance.
Click to expand...

I don't agree, but I do understand your point.
The fact is, blur is used to cover imperfections/aliasing, which is of course the good part, but it also destroys the inherent detail of a scene, especially when applied in high quantities, which is exactly what happens in that Wide Tent screenshot and that's a "No No" in image processing/video editing. Scenes without uniform color patterns (game textures, live action movies, 3D movies, etc), should not receive any kind of bluring effect. There are ways to improve the overall image quality, without destroying the detail that characterizes it. Blur (coupled with a few others) is a filter used in extreme situations, such as rainbows in the source image, but that is something very specific to video and is NOT part of the game's world and so it should not be used at all.
 
A few games actually use Depth of field blurring to give that more cinematic effect... I'm honestly having troubles remembering a huge number of games at the moment that use it, but I know games like Call of Juarez, Black and White 2 for example use it.

Makes the things close sharp, and the things far away a lil' fuzzy.
 
Silus said:
I don't agree, but I do understand your point.
The fact is, blur is used to cover imperfections/aliasing, which is of course the good part, but it also destroys the inherent detail of a scene, especially when applied in high quantities, which is exactly what happens in that Wide Tent screenshot and that's a "No No" in image processing/video editing. Scenes without uniform color patterns (game textures, live action movies, 3D movies, etc), should not receive any kind of bluring effect. There are ways to improve the overall image quality, without destroying the detail that characterizes it. Blur (coupled with a few others) is a filter used in extreme situations, such as rainbows in the source image, but that is something very specific to video and is NOT part of the game's world and so it should not be used at all.
Click to expand...

Blurring in movies is actually caused by the camera focus and it will always be there just like when your eyes are focusing on something but sometimes excessive blurring is also used as an effect in movies. I reckon that the image will be much better if the object in the red circles in this GTX screen shot are rendered like in the R600 screen shot. I agree though the big building at the middle and the big trees in the R600 screen shot are too blur but the roof and the trees in the red circle of the GTX screen shot are also to sharp imo.
 
phide said:
There's already a depth of field mod for Oblivion. It's imperfect, but it does what it's supposed to do.
Click to expand...

Wow these two images look superb!
http://www.tessource.net/files/image.php?id=16912
http://www.tessource.net/files/image.php?id=16913

I think that it would be much better if they can make the objects in the middle of the screen in focus and other objects blur, not necessarily the nearest objects are in focus like when you are looking at the pillars in the distance, the pillars will be sharp but everything else is a litlle blurry, get what I mean?

Edit: I read the thread in the link and they said that the feature is available in Call of Juarez, cool!
 
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