My rational is just fine if you actually read and understand my post. Simple economics really, for AMD to make people who want to upgrade for reasons other than performance happy, would mean stretching their resources thinner than they already are. The trade-off is NOT worth it. You act as if they can continue to produce 939 parts with no consequences, there ARE trade-offs and that is what you need to realize. Selling even more processors at even further reduced prices while at the same time negatively affecting their production ability of the K10 processor (which WILL make them money) isn't going to help them, they need to focus on whats next, not what is in the past to survive. AMD knows this, I know this, and several others who have posted know this as well... It's time for the disgruntled folks like yourself to get the big picture and move on.
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Disgruntled s939 owner agrees...
- Thread starter Manny Calavera
- Start date
My rational is just fine if you actually read and understand my post. Simple economics really, for AMD to make people who want to upgrade for reasons other than performance happy, would mean stretching their resources thinner than they already are. The trade-off is NOT worth it. You act as if they can continue to produce 939 parts with no consequences, there ARE trade-offs and that is what you need to realize. Selling even more processors at even further reduced prices while at the same time negatively affecting their production ability of the K10 processor (which WILL make them money) isn't going to help them, they need to focus on whats next, not what is in the past to survive. AMD knows this, I know this, and several others who have posted know this as well... It's time for the disgruntled folks like yourself to get the big picture and move on.
Learn from this experience, folks.
When it does finally come to upgrade you no longer just look at the benchmark scores. It's time to factor in the longevity of the socket you're sticking it in.
Buying a 775 wouldn't make much sense if it only had a 6 month lifespan. Its just that 939 has had a way too short lifespan. Back in the day it was Intel hopping from socket to socket (Pentium 1's sockets lasted longer than Pentium 2 due Cyrix/IBM's efforts at the tail end of the P1's life and K6 and it's siblings afterwards). After this the companies went their separate ways. Slots 1 and A lasted approximately the same amount of time (iirc - never had one) and then socket A came and lasted ages while Intel jumped from socket to socket again. Now it's been AMD's turn.
If a Barca is equal to C2Q then it'll be time to look at the roadmap for the sockets. If it isn't, AMD could be in trouble. And then there'll be the inevitable ASRock board for for those of us who've seen this play out many times before.
When it does finally come to upgrade you no longer just look at the benchmark scores. It's time to factor in the longevity of the socket you're sticking it in.
Buying a 775 wouldn't make much sense if it only had a 6 month lifespan. Its just that 939 has had a way too short lifespan. Back in the day it was Intel hopping from socket to socket (Pentium 1's sockets lasted longer than Pentium 2 due Cyrix/IBM's efforts at the tail end of the P1's life and K6 and it's siblings afterwards). After this the companies went their separate ways. Slots 1 and A lasted approximately the same amount of time (iirc - never had one) and then socket A came and lasted ages while Intel jumped from socket to socket again. Now it's been AMD's turn.
If a Barca is equal to C2Q then it'll be time to look at the roadmap for the sockets. If it isn't, AMD could be in trouble. And then there'll be the inevitable ASRock board for for those of us who've seen this play out many times before.
Unabomber
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The Socket 939 processors were (and still are) excellent CPU's, but technology constantly evolves. I remember a lot of folks complaining when the original Pentium first came out, where there were all sorts of remarks, such as the following:
1) Oh no! I can't re-use my 30 pin memory from my 486 system! Now I have to buy that God-awful expensive 72 pin memory!
2) Oh no! There aren't that many VESA Local Bus Pentium motherboards! What am I going to do? I don't want to buy a PCI video card!
3) Oh no! My 150 watt power supply might not be enough to power up that new Pentium system! I don't want to buy a 200 watt power supply!
In the end, we adapted. With Barcelona on the horizon, DDR2 being the standard, and with there being some truly excellent bang / buck deals in the AM2 market (such as Brisbane), there's no real reason to sink anymore $$$ into your Socket 939 system.
1) Oh no! I can't re-use my 30 pin memory from my 486 system! Now I have to buy that God-awful expensive 72 pin memory!
2) Oh no! There aren't that many VESA Local Bus Pentium motherboards! What am I going to do? I don't want to buy a PCI video card!
3) Oh no! My 150 watt power supply might not be enough to power up that new Pentium system! I don't want to buy a 200 watt power supply!
In the end, we adapted. With Barcelona on the horizon, DDR2 being the standard, and with there being some truly excellent bang / buck deals in the AM2 market (such as Brisbane), there's no real reason to sink anymore $$$ into your Socket 939 system.
BigMacAttack
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And how would AMD easily dedicate a small portion of their production to s939 production when they had to redo their FAB's? I am curious to hear your engineering plan becasue it isn't as easy as you seem to think it is. How could Hector have played both fields? What is your expertise in running a cpu production facility? Please enlighten us all. Give me a business plan for your idea. I'm sure AMD would have loved to hear it as well. Yes, I am being a bit sarcastic because guys like you, who have no idea just exactly what it is they are talking about, seem to have all the easy answers. I guess he's just supposed to wave a magic wand or something? I'm no expert either, but I do know fabricating two different architectures more than likely requires 2 different FABs, each running a separate and distinct process. Maybe I'm wrong and I could well be but I kind of doubt I'm too far off here.
If it is easy to produce two separate architectures in the same FAB I'd love to see how each is segregated so as to maintain a steady flow of product, testing facilities and so on. Honestly you seem to be living in a pipe dream where what you want is all that matters. Unfortunately the real situation is far different then your vision of reality when it comes to producing the final product.
Again, if it so easy please explain it to the rest of us. I for one am dying to hear how this could take place. Maybe I'm all wet and now nothing of where I speak. If so I will apologize for my importunity.
BigMacAttack
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Well said. Changing sockets isn't anything new. Those of us who have been around since the dawn of the pc know this very well. 8088, 286, 386, 486, Pentium (in all its iterations) AMD K series, etc etc ad nauseum all demonstrate this very clearly. We as the consumer always demand "more, more more" and when we get it we still find something to complain about. I agree that AM2 isn't a great performer but the market, competition, standardization on a new ram technology and a few other factors as well forced AMD to create a new technology to incorporate these new features. The design had to change and therefore so did the socket. Sad but true. AM2 was "evolutionary" in terms of performance and construction whilst C2D was "revolutionary" in terms of performance (not sure about construction - the Intel guys would know more about that than me) because it crushes the competition. Hopefully Barcelona will be a "revolutionary" performer as well.
For those of us who've been around awhile this isn't anything new. And BTW s939 has been around now for nigh on 2.5 years with production running for 2 years at least. In the computer industry that's a good long time.
All I can say on the topic is this:
Recently released: The Radeon X1950XT, in AGP.
Soon to be released: The GeForce 7590GT, in AGP.
So 939 has been around for 2.5 years? WHOOOOAAAA ancient history! Obviously a simple memory controller that is only designed around a 400MHz bus can't possibly handle the throughput of a 6000+!
Oh wait, it can. Just as the AGP bus still has the capability to maximize the throughput of its own bus, on an architecture nearly 10 years old. AGP Ultra/3.0/16x went by the wayside in favor of PCI-Express, despite the great potential. 939 still has the capability to compete, which has basically been proven with models like the FX-60.
It's a fundamentally wasteful paradigm, and it encompasses our lives. Why bother using something to its fullest practicality when you can just get something new? It doesn't necessarily have to be much better, if it all. It doesn't have to save you money. In fact, you're so damn aloof, it can cost you much more! It doesn't matter! It's NEW! It's IMPROVED! Remember when that cliche started hitting the consumer market? There was nothing wrong with the old one. Sure, it eventually would have worn out, but there was plenty of use left in it. No bother! Get the NEW and IMPROVED model with the designer color! It didn't improve your life much, if at all, but it was NEW!
This is, sadly, a primarily American approach, though Europe has fallen to it, and lord knows Japan and South Korea practically embrace this methodology. We toss away our resources because they are so plentiful. Wanna know why Intel is beating AMD right now? Because they decided to see what they could do with what they had. They're still doing it with AGP, and it can be done with 939. People who talk about moving forward are blinded by the gleaming, sparkling advertising veneer that yields them roughly a 1% gain per $100 spent. Socket A to 939 was moving forward. 939 to AM2 was the same damn thing with a sunroof. No dice, AMD. You were building up such a great reputation, and you flushed it right when you began to succeed.
Recently released: The Radeon X1950XT, in AGP.
Soon to be released: The GeForce 7590GT, in AGP.
So 939 has been around for 2.5 years? WHOOOOAAAA ancient history! Obviously a simple memory controller that is only designed around a 400MHz bus can't possibly handle the throughput of a 6000+!
Oh wait, it can. Just as the AGP bus still has the capability to maximize the throughput of its own bus, on an architecture nearly 10 years old. AGP Ultra/3.0/16x went by the wayside in favor of PCI-Express, despite the great potential. 939 still has the capability to compete, which has basically been proven with models like the FX-60.
It's a fundamentally wasteful paradigm, and it encompasses our lives. Why bother using something to its fullest practicality when you can just get something new? It doesn't necessarily have to be much better, if it all. It doesn't have to save you money. In fact, you're so damn aloof, it can cost you much more! It doesn't matter! It's NEW! It's IMPROVED! Remember when that cliche started hitting the consumer market? There was nothing wrong with the old one. Sure, it eventually would have worn out, but there was plenty of use left in it. No bother! Get the NEW and IMPROVED model with the designer color! It didn't improve your life much, if at all, but it was NEW!
This is, sadly, a primarily American approach, though Europe has fallen to it, and lord knows Japan and South Korea practically embrace this methodology. We toss away our resources because they are so plentiful. Wanna know why Intel is beating AMD right now? Because they decided to see what they could do with what they had. They're still doing it with AGP, and it can be done with 939. People who talk about moving forward are blinded by the gleaming, sparkling advertising veneer that yields them roughly a 1% gain per $100 spent. Socket A to 939 was moving forward. 939 to AM2 was the same damn thing with a sunroof. No dice, AMD. You were building up such a great reputation, and you flushed it right when you began to succeed.
BigMacAttack
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I agree with most of what you say. S939 can compete with AM2 but its competition isn't AM2 - its Intel and C2D (soon to be C2Q). Imagine the hue and cry if AMD had done nothing and stuck with s939. They'd be roasted by AMD users for sticking with an out of date ram spec (DDR1) which is being discontinued (or so it is reported, I haven't seen much change in prices personally), performance which is sadly outrun by Intel's latest offering and prices above their faster competition. FX-60 is still not cheap or fast enough to keep people from going C2D. AMD would quite possibly still be in their present condition financially and possibly worse off because the financial gurus on Wall Street would have crucified them for foot dragging and so on. Perception is reality, especially in investing. Do nothing and you'll die. Do something, even if poorly, and you may survive by the skin of your teeth as long as you can put a good spin on it.
Moore's Law rules the roost in computer technology. That being that transistor count should double every 18 months thereby bringing more computing power and capability. This is getting harder to attain to be sure but it is what drives the computer industry. I'm not saying I agree that it needs to be so but my opinion counts for nothing in the field because I'm just a lowly consumer peon. But I do understand the reason(s) for the madness. Its true in every area of the consumer society. We demand more, more, more! Bigger, better, faster! But then we throw in the caveat; "just don't ruffle my feathers doing it." You can't have it both ways unfortunately. Well, I take that back, you can to a point but its sadly more expensive.
AGP is still useable, yes, but factor in the cost and it isn't such a good bang for the buck deal compared to PCI-e because it is a dead end technology for the most part. I still have it in my work system and I hate to think of giving it up one day because the card cost me $400 2.5 yrs ago and it still works great. But the time will come when I'll need to upgrade the system and my trusty old AGP X800Pro will have to be retired. And why will I have to upgrade? Because the software I use will finally exceed the capabilities of my out of date hardware. C'est la vie old trusty companion, you served me well, but now its time to move on - and I'll get far more performance for less cost on PCI-e than I ever would on AGP. That's precisely why I went PCI-e on my s754 home system - so I could take the card with me when I do decide to upgrade the system. Thinking ahead a year ago will save me $$$ in the days to come. Hopefully AMD will honor their promise to make AM2 compatible with the new cpu's they'll release next. If so, AM2 looks to be a bit more promising and long-lived.
S939 is still a viable platform and will be for a while yet but don't think for one minute that AMD could have competed against Intel's C2D with it. If they'd stuck with s939 they'd have more people jumping ship than they have now because instead of being angry about being "abandoned" they'd be mad that AMD didn't try to counter Intel with something new. Ah consumer, thy name is fickle.
Moore's Law rules the roost in computer technology. That being that transistor count should double every 18 months thereby bringing more computing power and capability. This is getting harder to attain to be sure but it is what drives the computer industry. I'm not saying I agree that it needs to be so but my opinion counts for nothing in the field because I'm just a lowly consumer peon. But I do understand the reason(s) for the madness. Its true in every area of the consumer society. We demand more, more, more! Bigger, better, faster! But then we throw in the caveat; "just don't ruffle my feathers doing it." You can't have it both ways unfortunately. Well, I take that back, you can to a point but its sadly more expensive.
AGP is still useable, yes, but factor in the cost and it isn't such a good bang for the buck deal compared to PCI-e because it is a dead end technology for the most part. I still have it in my work system and I hate to think of giving it up one day because the card cost me $400 2.5 yrs ago and it still works great. But the time will come when I'll need to upgrade the system and my trusty old AGP X800Pro will have to be retired. And why will I have to upgrade? Because the software I use will finally exceed the capabilities of my out of date hardware. C'est la vie old trusty companion, you served me well, but now its time to move on - and I'll get far more performance for less cost on PCI-e than I ever would on AGP. That's precisely why I went PCI-e on my s754 home system - so I could take the card with me when I do decide to upgrade the system. Thinking ahead a year ago will save me $$$ in the days to come. Hopefully AMD will honor their promise to make AM2 compatible with the new cpu's they'll release next. If so, AM2 looks to be a bit more promising and long-lived.
S939 is still a viable platform and will be for a while yet but don't think for one minute that AMD could have competed against Intel's C2D with it. If they'd stuck with s939 they'd have more people jumping ship than they have now because instead of being angry about being "abandoned" they'd be mad that AMD didn't try to counter Intel with something new. Ah consumer, thy name is fickle.
I think allot of people dont understand why us 939'ers are upset......I have a nice system look in signature with an FX-60 it is great, but I would have been happier than a clam if AMD retired the 939 on top with a nice round number of 3.0ghz and be done.
But the funny thing is the new AM2 systems are like NOT faster at all, the same speed 939 vs same AM2 is almost exactly the same, so why would anyone want to upgrade to an AM2 right now from something like I have, or if ya need an upgrade you will go Core2Duo......I can understand all new architecture if ya get a ton of new features, or the speed/performance jump is at least 25%+ faster
But the funny thing is the new AM2 systems are like NOT faster at all, the same speed 939 vs same AM2 is almost exactly the same, so why would anyone want to upgrade to an AM2 right now from something like I have, or if ya need an upgrade you will go Core2Duo......I can understand all new architecture if ya get a ton of new features, or the speed/performance jump is at least 25%+ faster
BigMacAttack
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I do understand the way you feel - I felt the same way when 939 replaced 754. There really wasn't all that much benefit in jumping over - until the dual core cpu's were released. Looking back, I kinda wish I ahd taken the 93 plunge with an Opty 144o 146 and then opted for a dual core. Oh well, And I agree that AM2 isn't all that great, although there are some who are getting good overclocks with some of the AM2's. Of course, you can't depend on high overclocks because overclocking is very subjective anyhow, but when the AMD quads come out at least AM2 should be able to accept them if AMD holds true to their pathway and that will at least be a plus.
But as for AMD making a 3.0 ghz cpu available I see only one problem - price. It would be quite expensive - more so than the FX-60 - and therefore it would be a failure because the cpu would be as much or more than a faster C2D cpu, ram and mobo upgrade or an AM2 upgrade. I am sure some would opt for it but for those who compare price/performance ratio they'd see the light and make the switch to either the more upgradeable AM2 or the more powerful C2D.
Manny Calavera
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I dont need to be an engineer to figure it out,you are missing the point and should take a moment to look up...notice the planes flying over head ??
Why are you defending them on this I cannot for the life of me fathom.I do know though,that there are a small group here,who will jump in to any and all threads to 'defend' AMDAti whenever they think someone is trying to beat up on them,which is not what I am trying to do.Your quetions are foolish and childish,and argumentative for NO good reason.I want AMDati to succeed and selling me,and several thousand others s939 cpu's would help them !! Can you not get that through your head !!?? A sale is a sale,they need all the cash they can get thier hands on right now.You dont need to be an engineer,or have a PHD in business marketing to understand that little gem ! And no it does not require two different fabs,my god !!! give your head a shake
Your missing the forest for the trees.... I am sure its not as simple as 'waving a magic wand',your words,not mine I really do think its as simple as this:The people in charge of manufactuing dont have a clue,as to what would be a good thing for them right now,the left hand does not at all know what the right needs to be doing (toss us some s939 6000+....etc...etc...)
You want a business plan smart ass ??
How about selling the users here what they want ? Golly gee! That was real fucking hard to figure out now wasnt it !???!!
I can hardly beleive,never mind accept that AMD just throws out the IP to build older die's,or what have you,the second the contractual obligations for making them for the Dells of the world are up and over with.You dont throw out the baby with the bath water.If AMDati really wanted to,they could spit the damn things out by the end of the week.I am sure the schematics,the engineering know how,and the manufacturing capability is intact,and could be leveraged in a hurry if the will to do so in corporate was there.The fools at the top are too busy figuring out how to plan the next set of layoffs and sell of real estate,then do what they should be doing,meeting demand for product they can easily produce in the here and now.
Sorry, it's not us missing the point... It's you guys... You're worried about yourself and don't understand or refuse to listen to the reasoning behind the move to AM2, or more importantly, the move away from 939... It's been explained several times already but you don't seem to be able go grasp the concept, so I won't bother explaining it yet again.
BigMacAttack
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I dont need to be an engineer to figure it out,you are missing the point and should take a moment to look up...notice the planes flying over head ??
And no it does not require two different fabs,my god !!! give your head a shake
I am sure its not as simple as 'waving a magic wand',your words,not mine I really do think its as simple as this:The people in charge of manufactuing dont have a clue,as to what would be a good thing for them right now,the left hand does not at all know what the right needs to be doing (toss us some s939 6000+....etc...etc...)
You want a business plan smart ass ??
How about selling the users here what they want ? Golly gee! That was real fucking hard to figure out now wasnt it !???!!
I can hardly beleive,never mind accept that AMD just throws out the IP to build older die's,or what have you,the second the contractual obligations for making them for the Dells of the world are up and over with.You dont throw out the baby with the bath water.If AMDati really wanted to,they could spit the damn things out by the end of the week.I am sure the schematics,the engineering know how,and the manufacturing capability is intact,and could be leveraged in a hurry if the will to do so in corporate was there.The fools at the top are too busy figuring out how to plan the next set of layoffs and sell of real estate,then do what they should be doing,meeting demand for product they can easily produce in the here and now.
Well if you are so smart why don't you go give them your resume and tell them you want to run the company since you seem to have all the answers that these guys don't. After all they have only been in the business a few years now so maybe they need some new blood to shake things up! If its really that easy and simple I'm sure they'd love to have you on board
No one wants AMD to succeed more than I do. But you are oversimplifying everything because you want what you want and you don't want anyone to tell you you can't have it. Quite pedantic IMO. Why don't you look beyond the end of your own selfishness and move on. Cry all you want but it won't help. You remind me of a little child in the grocery store checkout line pitching a fit because he can't have what he wants. Welcome to real life. Get used to it. If it was so easy for AMD to continue making s939 I'm sure they would have but their life cycle for that technology has run its course. It was great while it lasted but all good things must come to an end. For better or worse AMD is moving on and you and I must adapt. Its like asking why Ford isn't still making the Model T. Did they "abandon" the owners/buyers of the Model T? Yep, but in the long run they got a better product and that is what progress is all about. Why you can't get that through your head is beyond me. Ok, you're p-o'd - we get it already! You've made your point - feel better? While you've been screaming and acting like a child we're all just twiddling ou thumbs wishing to God your parents would tan your hide and give you something to really cry about. S939 is EOL. Sorry. It isn't the end of the world and the sky isn't falling. If you don't like AM2 wait for Barcelona, go C2D or just be happy with what you have. Just quit crying the blues and get on with your life. There are better things to be upset about.
Manny Calavera
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Well if you are so smart why don't you go give them your resume and tell them you want to run the company since you seem to have all the answers that these guys don't. After all they have only been in the business a few years now so maybe they need some new blood to shake things up! If its really that easy and simple I'm sure they'd love to have you on board
No one wants AMD to succeed more than I do. But you are oversimplifying everything because you want what you want and you don't want anyone to tell you you can't have it. Quite pedantic IMO. Why don't you look beyond the end of your own selfishness and move on. Cry all you want but it won't help. You remind me of a little child in the grocery store checkout line pitching a fit because he can't have what he wants. Welcome to real life. Get used to it. If it was so easy for AMD to continue making s939 I'm sure they would have but their life cycle for that technology has run its course. It was great while it lasted but all good things must come to an end. For better or worse AMD is moving on and you and I must adapt. Its like asking why Ford isn't still making the Model T. Did they "abandon" the owners/buyers of the Model T? Yep, but in the long run they got a better product and that is what progress is all about. Why you can't get that through your head is beyond me. Ok, you're p-o'd - we get it already! You've made your point - feel better? While you've been screaming and acting like a child we're all just twiddling ou thumbs wishing to God your parents would tan your hide and give you something to really cry about. S939 is EOL. Sorry. It isn't the end of the world and the sky isn't falling. If you don't like AM2 wait for Barcelona, go C2D or just be happy with what you have. Just quit crying the blues and get on with your life. There are better things to be upset about.
So other then the fact you seem to be telling me,and others here that you are schizophrenic (Us...We....) what else are trying to say ?
I dont want to run the company and never claimed to have all the answers.I am not p-o'd,and no I dont feel better
I dont feel one way or the other about it all. I have not screamed or acted like a child.You are the one putting words in my mouth,and the mouths of others here.I never claimed the sky was falling,or that the world was ending.Those are the words of an alarmist,your words,not mine.Who said anything about crying !? I mean,other then you and duby that is...
Your post is hypocritical and very short sighted.Heck just read the first sentence,and then slip to the last two...I do think AMDati needs new blood though,but I have no interest in running things.That does not mean I cannot post my opinions and thoughts on how they are carrying on.If
you dont like what you are reading here,then move on,and as you said....... Qoute:
BigMacAttack
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I have to say this quote here strikes me as supremely arrogant. Who are you to say they are clueless? This is merely an uninformed opinion with no basis in actual experience at the manufacturing level. To manufacture a product you need to make sure you can sell that product to vendors. Do you have any numbers stating actual or projected demand? What of inventory storage - any ideas there you can enlighten us with? A company doesn't just run off a few hundred thousand (or so - whatever the amount may be) without having a business plan in place to make sure they can sell them profitably. And finally, can you make a decent enough profit on the product to justify manufacturing them? This price war is having a very heavy impact on AMD. There are far more complications to consider than just "hey we (just how many is "we"?) want some new cpu's!" Go do a market supply and demand study with hard numbers concerning cost to produce, store, and distribute the product in question. Then contact the vendors to see what they'll pay for them and do a final analysis to see if it is indeed profitable to manufacture these cpu's and then we'll talk. You are so uninformed as to how business actually works that its quite hilarious.
Actually though, your point of view and mine are similar - we both think AM2 is more or less a failure. Like s939 before it (compared to s754), its just more or less a lateral move - with a slight improvement in performance. But its just another step toward getting where we really want to be and that is for AMD to be back in the game as it were. You have your opinion about how things are being run and what they "need to be doing." This is very subjective. I would suggest it is you who "can't see the forest for the trees" (your words) because your vision is only on the here and now and not on the future. Give AMD time and I think you'll one day admit that while s939 was good in its time, it had to be relegated to the sidelines in order to get on with the program. I, like you, want a better product. In order to get it we have to move on and leave the past behind. That's my point of view in a nutshell. Sorry that seems to be so offensive to you.
zero_vertical
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I'm not sure what the big deal is. Socket 939 was a great socket, and will drive lots of computers for the next few years.
I got mine in early '05, and ran a 3000+ for almost 2 years. i swapped to the X2 a few months ago, and added a little memory, and voila, i just bought another 2 years out of this rig.
It's been a great socket, and for those who have a 4400, 4800, or oc'd opty dual core, you'll be running a nice rig for many moons? particularly when most of us are just gaming and surfing and enjoying music and movies.
what's the big to do? 4 years out of one platform isn't enough for you?
zv
I got mine in early '05, and ran a 3000+ for almost 2 years. i swapped to the X2 a few months ago, and added a little memory, and voila, i just bought another 2 years out of this rig.
It's been a great socket, and for those who have a 4400, 4800, or oc'd opty dual core, you'll be running a nice rig for many moons? particularly when most of us are just gaming and surfing and enjoying music and movies.
what's the big to do? 4 years out of one platform isn't enough for you?
zv
Manaknight
Supreme [H]ardness
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you know i SHOULD send them my resume, and I most certainly believe they DO in fact need some fresh blood to shake the place up. You would be suprised what can happen when someone with a fresh perspective comes in.
however just to make note that both sides do make valid points. However, i do agree that a few 939 upgrades would be wise at least for a short term, similar to how there were limited runs of 7900gto's and such. a quick run would be money in the bank, money that can be turned around to getting barcelona and future platforms situated.
Really its the best of both worlds scenario, yes things like ddr1 are slowly leaving the stage, i understand that. however ddr1 and ddr2 don't really matter for amd, frankly if i buy one or the other a different company sees this money. however if i buy an amd processor, be it an am2 or new 939 they see the money, its an easy way to capture the largest market and recoup some losses. there is bound to be a few 939 fabs that are not converted, and while i cannot say for certain (i don't work for amd) i am willing to bet it would not be difficult at all to put out some higher end 939 chips based on the am2 architecture.
this back and forth is getting out of hand. we all want to see amd pull themselves up.
however just to make note that both sides do make valid points. However, i do agree that a few 939 upgrades would be wise at least for a short term, similar to how there were limited runs of 7900gto's and such. a quick run would be money in the bank, money that can be turned around to getting barcelona and future platforms situated.
Really its the best of both worlds scenario, yes things like ddr1 are slowly leaving the stage, i understand that. however ddr1 and ddr2 don't really matter for amd, frankly if i buy one or the other a different company sees this money. however if i buy an amd processor, be it an am2 or new 939 they see the money, its an easy way to capture the largest market and recoup some losses. there is bound to be a few 939 fabs that are not converted, and while i cannot say for certain (i don't work for amd) i am willing to bet it would not be difficult at all to put out some higher end 939 chips based on the am2 architecture.
this back and forth is getting out of hand. we all want to see amd pull themselves up.
I think the ATi aquasition is going to do just that. They have some new administration staff, as well as some really good engineers. They have absorbed some good minds in the hive. Hopefully the hive will adapt to these new ideas
BigMacAttack
[H]ard|Gawd
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I'll be the first to say I emphatically agree so I'll just say this last remark and call it a day:
s754 and s939 are (or are soon to be) at their EOL leaving those of us using them SOL.
Whatever path we all take hereafter I wish you all nothing but success and good fortune. Let's all hope AMD rises to the occaision and gives us some great products from here on out.
It would be a gift from heaven. I sympathize for all those Socket-939 users who feel left out in the cold. Be glad you guys are not on Socket-940, like I am.
Well, I have been AMD since the beginning of my PC experience. For the past 8 years of building my own, I have never built myself an Intel rig.
I dont understand AMDs slacking. I hope they get it together.
I am now in the process of selling my s939 rig, and buying my 1st ever Intel rig.
So long AMD.
Was a good ride.
I dont understand AMDs slacking. I hope they get it together.
I am now in the process of selling my s939 rig, and buying my 1st ever Intel rig.
So long AMD.
Was a good ride.
Arcygenical
Fully [H]
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- 25,066
Now, I'd like a quad core for S939 myself, and I've been a long-time AMD user myself... But I think lots of people posting in this thread are underestimating how much it would cost AMD to roll out a new S939 processor...
- The yield rate on their processors that hit over 2.8ghz is probably quite small.
- They'd probably have to redesign them as 65nm to guarentee this higher clock rate.
- All the processors that fail the 3ghz test or so... what happens to them? They can't downbin them if they're only releasing one or two new s939 chips... reuse the silicon and try again?
- The act and cost of converting a portion of a fab to churn these chips out would be relatively high... and would deviate them from their future Barcelona plans. Not something any of us want.
- And probably quite a few other things that I can't even hope to understand...
Now, if half of the AMD retail market is on S939, and even if all of them upgrade... That still only accounts for a minute fraction of the AMD user-base. If they DID to this, they'd have to make a chip that retails for LESS than an intel C2D + RAM + mobo... Something I dont' see happening. If this magical 3ghz 939 chip is sold for 350$... something I could see happening as the "best scenario" price... Well, a C2D setup isn't much more than that.
Sure, this move might bolster the enthusiast-AMD relations substantiall, but with the enthusiast sector being so tiny, and the future advent of Barcelona (which, if the performance is there, customer relations be damned, we'll all buy it) this decision is just a bad idea at this point.
AMD should have forgotten about AM2 all together, and waited to release it as the barcelona socket... but what's done is done, and reviving an EOL socket to make a handful of people happy... Well... Cmon.
- The yield rate on their processors that hit over 2.8ghz is probably quite small.
- They'd probably have to redesign them as 65nm to guarentee this higher clock rate.
- All the processors that fail the 3ghz test or so... what happens to them? They can't downbin them if they're only releasing one or two new s939 chips... reuse the silicon and try again?
- The act and cost of converting a portion of a fab to churn these chips out would be relatively high... and would deviate them from their future Barcelona plans. Not something any of us want.
- And probably quite a few other things that I can't even hope to understand...
Now, if half of the AMD retail market is on S939, and even if all of them upgrade... That still only accounts for a minute fraction of the AMD user-base. If they DID to this, they'd have to make a chip that retails for LESS than an intel C2D + RAM + mobo... Something I dont' see happening. If this magical 3ghz 939 chip is sold for 350$... something I could see happening as the "best scenario" price... Well, a C2D setup isn't much more than that.
Sure, this move might bolster the enthusiast-AMD relations substantiall, but with the enthusiast sector being so tiny, and the future advent of Barcelona (which, if the performance is there, customer relations be damned, we'll all buy it) this decision is just a bad idea at this point.
AMD should have forgotten about AM2 all together, and waited to release it as the barcelona socket... but what's done is done, and reviving an EOL socket to make a handful of people happy... Well... Cmon.
zero_vertical
Gawd
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It'd be nice for you, but bad for them.
zero_vertical
Gawd
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How can you say it would be wise for AMD after all that's been posted in this thread? All of us 939ers are sad to see the socket go. We'd all like to save some $$ and continue to upgrade our current rigs.
THAT'S NOT WHAT MAKES AMD $$. On one hand you argue it'd be great for AMD, then on the other hand, you make it clear you only want to prolong the life of your own system at their expense.
Seriously, it would be supremely bad for AMD to go back to 939. In fact, it would have been even worse to NOT do AM2, as they wouldn't have been able to keep some of their loyal base (read NOT us enthusiasts) who wanted to be able to put DDR2 on the box to compete with the intel based DDR2 boxes.
AMD's doing fine, and are just in a part of the cycle when their chip isn't the best out there. Stop with all the alarmist, chicken little crap. It makes no sense to root for AMD!! All you should care about is right now, in this generation, the best way to build your own computer is through Intel. Just like i did, when it was time to rebuild back in early 2005, it was best to go with AMD. Who gives a flying sh*t who makes the damn processor. Don't you just want the best bang for your buck?
I can apprieciate "rooting" for AMD bcs of a competitive market and all, but that's not what you're saying at all. "OMG AMD is teh B3STorz, and they'rE DIEING!!1one!" Intel FTL m0f0!11eleventy" Give me a break! It's like a third grade field trip in here.
zv
zero_vertical
Gawd
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EXACTLY.
When it's time to build a new rig, no one here will be spitefull about "that time AMD skrewed meh on mah 939" :HAtR3d: . lol They'll buy the best parts they can within their budget. If that's a Barcy, then it'll be a Barcy. If it's a C2Q, then it'll be that. WHATEVER.
Well I know I won't be upgrading any of my 3 computers for atleast a couple of years unless they make some quad core 939. Then I will upgrade all 3 comps. Just upgraded the intel p4 3.0E last week with a A8R32-MVP. For 75 dollars was smart to get the motherboard then to upgrade to anything current when I had a spare 939 processor and whole bunch of ddr1 ram. My only upgrades I have planned for the next year is to upgrade my server and get dx10 cards for my daughters and my comp.
zero_vertical
Gawd
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you must not be reading the same news I am.
out of context. this is part of the cycle. for the previous 3 years, when AMD pwnd Intel, no one was like OMGLOLWTFBBQ Intel is going to D13!!!1
It's just part of the cycle.
No it isn't. Intel was never in the position that AMD is in now despite not having the best performing silicon.
Did you forget that Intel still had 80% of the market?
AMD and Intel trading spaces as far as who has the best product is part of the cycle. AMD losing billions isn't.
Me too, I'm waiting for DDR3 on both Intel and AMD.
BigMacAttack
[H]ard|Gawd
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Yup. And hearing from both companies that 32nm and 22nm will be here in the near future has me dizzy! Holy cow, folks. One day we're going to be telling our kids and grandkids about how it was in the "good old days" and they are going to laugh and think "how did you live like that?"
zero_vertical
Gawd
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You can get an AM2 3500+ for under $60 right now. Just how little do you think they can sell a 939 socket for? What good does that do? Your 754 people looking for a cheap upgrade still need a new mobo and memory, why not just do AM2 on the cheap rather than 939?
That makes no sense.GreenMonkey
2[H]4U
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- 2,159
I don't get the need to upgrade. I've been on s754 for 2.5 years now. I've never been on a socket so long. I bought my original 1.8ghz 2800+ newcastle Jan 2005 for $130. I bought a Venice 3400+ for $100 last summer and overclocked it to almost 2.7ghz. With the 2GB of CAS2 HyperX I bought last fall it runs great.
All the games I've played in the mean time play great. Quake 4, BFME2, FEAR Combat. I just downloaded the demo for CnC3. It ran fantastic at medium settings at 1920x1200...I didn't even try the high settings yet.
Most of the time I understood the upgrade frustration. A64 chips were WAY faster for gaming than an XP chip. The jump from my XP 1800+ to my 1.8ghz A64 2800+ was enormous and eliminated tons of CPU lag produced by the weather effects in BFME1.
If I upgrade, it will quite likely be to a cheap dual-core 939 chip and a premium 939 mboard (now also cheap) so I can keep my 2GB of cas2 RAM. I'm one of the penny-pinchers.
I've been having a lot of luck spending $100-$200 every 2-3 years instead of $500-$700 every 4-5 years. My system stays a lot more up to date.
I'm still not seeing a lot of gaming-centric use for the new stuff. It seems to be only useful to the hardcore multitasker folks compressing a lot of files or doing a lot video compression. Or people that lurk too much on forums. I spend a lot of time either hanging out with my 16mo old daughter, working, or playing my Wii/360/PS2/etc. So I guess maybe I'm not a hardcore user.
The older 754 and 939 CPUs simply aren't bottlenecking the graphics cards, at least not by very much. In my case the x850xt still does the job for me. And 754/939 simply have enough CPU power for now since few games are even using the dual-core.
All the games I've played in the mean time play great. Quake 4, BFME2, FEAR Combat. I just downloaded the demo for CnC3. It ran fantastic at medium settings at 1920x1200...I didn't even try the high settings yet.
Most of the time I understood the upgrade frustration. A64 chips were WAY faster for gaming than an XP chip. The jump from my XP 1800+ to my 1.8ghz A64 2800+ was enormous and eliminated tons of CPU lag produced by the weather effects in BFME1.
If I upgrade, it will quite likely be to a cheap dual-core 939 chip and a premium 939 mboard (now also cheap) so I can keep my 2GB of cas2 RAM. I'm one of the penny-pinchers.
I've been having a lot of luck spending $100-$200 every 2-3 years instead of $500-$700 every 4-5 years. My system stays a lot more up to date.
I'm still not seeing a lot of gaming-centric use for the new stuff. It seems to be only useful to the hardcore multitasker folks compressing a lot of files or doing a lot video compression. Or people that lurk too much on forums. I spend a lot of time either hanging out with my 16mo old daughter, working, or playing my Wii/360/PS2/etc. So I guess maybe I'm not a hardcore user.
The older 754 and 939 CPUs simply aren't bottlenecking the graphics cards, at least not by very much. In my case the x850xt still does the job for me. And 754/939 simply have enough CPU power for now since few games are even using the dual-core.