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R600 delayed again - but to be worth it?
- Thread starter the gamer
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That's_Corporate
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It better be worth it...
I'm getting pissed off, this is delaying my build.
I'm getting pissed off, this is delaying my build.
Arcygenical
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We should all DDos the inquirer, and take them off the net.
Great Idea. Don't they realise nobody beleives a word they say (type)?
If initial rumours are in any way correct, this will be trial number three for R600.
If nothing else, we need these cards to drive NVIDIA prices down. If the Inq is right (which they likely aren't), ATi will have been fumbling around with this thing for far too long by the time it's on shelves.
If nothing else, we need these cards to drive NVIDIA prices down. If the Inq is right (which they likely aren't), ATi will have been fumbling around with this thing for far too long by the time it's on shelves.
Caffeinated
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QFT
I just want to see how the new ATi card will look. I do need a new video card and the G80 prices are a bit out of range for my new build. I've been waiting for a couple of years to finally begin a new build, so I guess a couple of months won't hurt. All I need the is damn video card.
If the prices of 8800 cards are too much for you, how much do you think R600 based cards will be ? You can count on at least $650 for the top model (which is more than the current prices for a 8800 GTX), although with the confirmed 512 Bit memory bus and the rumored 1 GB GDDR3/GDDR4, I'm thinking it will be around $700.
If you are talking about mid-range cards, as it is and according to these recent rumors, it's more lilkely to see a 8600 GT, than a similar ATI product.
Considering all these rumors about delays, we can only hope ATI is just preparing to release a whole range of R600 based cards (from low to high-end). We'll just have to wait and see.
you said it right there, ATI has a tendancy to slow themselves down on launches by releasing their entire line in one week, where Nvidia usually goes from the top down, high end, to mid range to low end
That's_Corporate
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Yep, that, and also because ATi seems to do more testing/debugging than nVidia. Want proof? Just look how many threads people started about the reliability issues/bugs/bad drivers for the 8800 series. I will pay each forum member $100,000,000,000,000 each if the R600 has as many or more issues.
What issues ? The drivers issues ? You can bet R600 will have as much issues with drivers, when its released. So be prepared to cash in on your promise
It's a new architecture. It WILL have many issues.
Anarchist4000
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New architecture but all the various parts have all been tried in the market before so those bugs have already been worked out. It's a second gen unified setup so even the scheduling has been taken care of for most parts. Also consider ATI drivers appear to be well ahead of Nvidia atm for cards that have been released.
If the various rumors about ATI just respinning to get higher clocks from the card are true the driver department has been testing away for some time now. From the looks of it they're in no hurry to get the card out sine they don't see an apparent need. They appear targeted to launch with Vista and the 8800's aren't exactly taking over massive amounts of market share so ATI likely isn't rushed at all.
If the various rumors about ATI just respinning to get higher clocks from the card are true the driver department has been testing away for some time now. From the looks of it they're in no hurry to get the card out sine they don't see an apparent need. They appear targeted to launch with Vista and the 8800's aren't exactly taking over massive amounts of market share so ATI likely isn't rushed at all.
Why do you think that's the case ? No high-end product ever takes "massive amounts of market share", so that point is mute. NVIDIA released the 8800 cards, when they were ready. Drivers were unpolished, but drivers always are, in a new architecture. The past has taught us that and ATI will be no different. ATI didn't release the card yet, because it's not ready. Simple as that.
And if ATI wants to catch a "massive amount of market share" as you put it, they better release the mid-range cards too, along with the high-end offerings, or they'll be in a world of hurt, since the same rumors that point to a delay of R600, also point to a mid-range launch of G80 based cards at the same time, by NVIDIA.
That's_Corporate
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What issues ? The drivers issues ? You can bet R600 will have as much issues with drivers, when its released. So be prepared to cash in on your promise
It's a new architecture. It WILL have many issues.
Go browse the other forum, deny it all you want.
Many people are very unhappy with their 8800 purchases due to things that should of been ironed out before.
I'll try to remember this
Granted, but R600 is ATi's first multi-version DX, unified GPU for PCs. G80 seems to suffer from zero direct scheduling issues, and the issues that G80 does have are likely more related to a lack of intimacy with the other vagaries of the GPU. I figure R600 parts will have fewer issues, though I don't think there's any reason to jump the gun and assume that that's going to be true.Anarchist4000 said:
Anarchist4000
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phide said:
Because most of the major OEMs aren't offering 8800's as an option in their systems. I was referring to the high end market share, not total market share. I would expect someone like Dell to make up a significant chunk of the high end market yet they don't even offer an 8800GTS/GTX as an option. You can buy a box but not a system with the card in it. Their high end card is still a 7950. I'm sure most people on this forum don't buy prebuilt systems but a lot of people still would.
And rumors seem to point to ATI actually having working cards for some time now. Not that they've been having R520ish problems where the cards weren't working or were having major problems. It seems like ATI is just messing around with clockspeeds and power usage.
Also ATI tends to release all their cards in large volleys so I wouldn't be surprised if the mid and low end actually hit the market at the same time as vista so the OEMs could release systems with the cards in them.
True but DX9, as far as hardware goes, is still a subset of DX10. I don't really see it as being much different than a R300 supporting both DX8/9 when it was released. It's still one version of DX building on the next for the most part. They just removed the backwards compatibility in the software part. In DX9 a R520/580 could run both PS and VS on the pixel units. They probably could have disabled the VS on the card and called it unified DX9 if they really wanted to.phide said:
I know of at least one person that's extremely pleased w/ his 8800 purchase.
Like what ? The amazing performance ? The unprecedented image quality ?
I browse the NVIDIA forum and all I've seen is people displeased with the drivers, which is to be expected in a new architecture, as I already mentioned. Drivers are in an unpolished phase and they will be for a while. But as far as I've read, the 97.xx drivers are very good and stable.
ATI will have the same problems and it's not because they suck, but because it's normal.
And where have you read those rumors ? The rumors I've read come from the (usual) Inq and they went as far as saying the R600 had too many problems, that of course needed to be worked out, before the launch. Being the Inq, I tend not to believe it, but are you saying that ATI didn't want to release it sooner, because "they care" ? Are you saying that ATI didn't release a product, because it wants to sort out every single tiny bug, to please their customers ?
All I can say to that is, you are wrong. They didn't release the card, because it's just not ready yet, otherwise, you would already have R600 based cards around. First and foremost, ATI (or AMD-ATI) is a company and as a company, it wants (and needs) money to exist, so "thinking" that they have all the problems sorted out, and are just playing with clockspeeds and the sort, when they could be making some money, is kind of naive.
All I can say, is that probably ATI is spending more time than usual testing R600, because they have their biggest challenge yet: to beat the 8800 GTX, which I'm sure you've seen in reviews, is extremely good.
Caffeinated
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QFT a second time in this thread. If it was ready, it would be on the virtual shelves by now.
I also believe that even if it is "released" at the end of this month, it will be next to impossible to get one until mid to end March. That is, of course, my personal speculation.
Exactly how late is it at this point? That isn't a rhetorical question, but a real one. 3 months? 2 months? 5 months?
The R600 is never late, Mr. Caffeinated. It arrives exactly when he means to!
Yeah that was lame, but so is this thread with its usual red/green flag waving with no conclusion
"It" you mean
I don't think we've come to that yet (and hopefully, we won't). There might be some flag waving, but we were able to discuss our opinions, without any kind of flaming and that's very good, since that's the goal of these forums.
Well, no one actually knows. Only ATI of course
The rumors say it's delayed until March, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's launched sooner. I just hope it's not later. Rumors are rumors. We'll only know for sure, when it actually happens.
One thing I'm sure of. This will be a hard launch. It HAS to be. At this point, ATI can't afford to do a paper launch.
Night Black
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As ATI is Canadian and I am Canadian... GO ATI
Seriously though, with ATi's card out, NVIDIA will be forced to compete in an arena that they had alone with the 8800s. Competition means better performance and/or lower costs.
Win for this NVIDIA fan.
Seriously though, with ATi's card out, NVIDIA will be forced to compete in an arena that they had alone with the 8800s. Competition means better performance and/or lower costs.
Win for this NVIDIA fan.
As ATI is Canadian and I am Canadian... GO ATI
Seriously though, with ATi's card out, NVIDIA will be forced to compete in an arena that they had alone with the 8800s. Competition means better performance and/or lower costs.
Win for this NVIDIA fan.
Exactly!
We all want the R600 cards out, not only because they seem to be very good, according to rumored specs, but also because NVIDIA needs competition to further improve their cards and lower their prices.
But I have to say I'm impressed with how the 8800 cards prices have gone down since launch. I mean, there's nothing to compete with them and still they dropped about $50 each and in some cases, a bit more than that.
Stereophile
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Did ATi ever give anyone a release date for R600 ? I don't believe so. If they shoot for more advanced technology it stands to reason it will come later than the competitor's offering.
Whether it comes in Jan, Feb or even March it's right around the launch window for vista. I have little doubt it will at least equal 88xx performance. What are you really losing by waiting a few months ? It's not like any killer DX10 games are around.
Whether it comes in Jan, Feb or even March it's right around the launch window for vista. I have little doubt it will at least equal 88xx performance. What are you really losing by waiting a few months ? It's not like any killer DX10 games are around.
Arcygenical
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Night Black
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I thought it was owned by Americans, but still mostly based in Canada.
Just like our government
Not a fan of Harper here.
Just like our government
Not a fan of Harper here.
I thought it was owned by Americans, but still mostly based in Canada.
Just like our government
Not a fan of Harper here.
AMD+
Anarchist4000
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Silus said:
I'm not saying they didn't release it because they didn't care but because they have no need to. Sales of 1900 series products look to be fairly solid and without Vista and DX10 out there little need exists. G80 isn't exactly selling like crazy so it's not like they're losing a lot of sales they would have had otherwise. It would make more sense for them to set on it and work on improving yields and speeds so they can have higher margins. They are a company after all and want to make money.
The rumors I saw last were from Hexus saying that ATI had working silicon but was working towards getting clockspeeds up over 1GHz. The 2GHz speeds they mentioned were out there a bit but if the shaders are running at 2x the core clock similar to Nvidia it might be reasonable. The 512bit bus has already been confirmed and if those die shots turn out to be true, R600 has more transistors and slightly less die space than G80. R600 could very easily have double the bandwidth of G80 and processing power would likely be significantly more than the G80 just to use the available bandwidth. For example when those LVL505 'benchmarks' showed they were dismissed as being way off the mark by people that know how R600 performs. And those benchmarks put R600 slightly ahead of G80.
Heck they could even be working the design out on 65nm, they technically own a fab that can do it.
They don't need to ? I still think you are missing the point. Yes, they need to. The money they spent on research and development needs to be cashed in. And again, the high-end cards, such as the launched 8800 cards, will never sell like crazy and neither will the high-end offerings from ATI. And right now, it's even worse for ATI, in the high-end market, with a 8800 GTS around. Who will buy ATI's latest and greatest ? X1950 XTX is an inferior product for about the same amount of money. Who in their right mind buys it ? Only if the XTX is offered or it's about $200, otherwise you would have to be an extreme ATI !!!!!! to buy it. And in the mid-range, NVIDIA is still at the top, because the only ATI card worth having in the mid-range segment, is a X1950 Pro, and that one came very late into the game. So yes, ATI needs to launch its latest product.
About the theoretical bandwidth of R600, yes the numbers seem to be very impressive, but we'll need to know how that will be used in real applications, such as games. Now about the processing power, I have my doubts that R600 will be that much faster than G80 (in terms of streaming processors). R600 will most likely be a tad faster than G80, due to it's higher memory bandwidth and probably higher clock speeds, but in terms of stream processing power, they will be neck to neck.
And course, R600 will end up being smaller than G80...It's built on a smaller fab process: 80 nm.
And did you actually believe the R600 benchmarks by level505 ? That was even worse than the Inq. 8800 GTX numbers were very low in games, where we've seen it excel. I mean, sure, they could make up all the R600 numbers (since I doubt they had the card), but at least they could've used REAL 8800 GTX numbers. I guess it didn't fit their will to try and boost their fake R600 numbers.
65 nm ? Not a chance! Or they are really trying to mess this launch, because in a new architecture such as this one, they need to use a fab process they have used before. They can't risk using one they barely started, or they WILL have problems and cause more delays, which means more money spent and no revenue.
You supply the target, I supply the botne...
I mean, the donations. Yes..
R600 is so gonna be worth it. Assuming that:
It's better than the G80: Prices on the G80 will drop. Demand exceeds supply on the R600. nVidia will need to raise clock speeds, dieshrink + clock speed increase, or something else. In the end, consumer wins.
It's worse than the G80: ATI will drop prices, until they release a faster version, with minor changes. See X1k series. In the end, consumer wins.
It's win win.
That's_Corporate
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Nope, ATi won't have the same problems, just watch.
Deny it all you want, we all know why.
-(Xyphox)-
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Ok...Care to explain why then, since you seem to have some inside info I don't ?
That's_Corporate
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I'm Canadian, I have a telepathic link to every other Canadian (including the ones that work at ATi).
Like level505, I can't disclose much since I took an oath never to release information gained through my Canadian telepathic link (or "CTL").
All I can say is that soon you will see the light.
R600 will be rock solid and usher in a new age of gaming.
Don't hate; Congradulate.
Like level505, I can't disclose much since I took an oath never to release information gained through my Canadian telepathic link (or "CTL").
All I can say is that soon you will see the light.
R600 will be rock solid and usher in a new age of gaming.
Don't hate; Congradulate.