BF2: The J10 (rant)

Am I the only one that thinks the balance in air to air combat in BF2 is totally one sided? Especially with the Chinese J10. It seems like DICE doesn't like US aircraft or something, because it seems almost impossible to achieve air superiority against the Chinese. The F35B is like a flying winnebago, it turns like a steam ship compard to the J10. The F/A 18 has a chance but is still no match in manuevaribility. The J10 seems to dodge missles like a ninja as well, so the only way to kill it is to not be seen at all and fire your machineguns.

I jumped in the J10 myself and I was *completely* untouchable. Any competent pilot in a J10 can take down an ace in a F35B. My friend and I were laughing how easy it was to get kills, missles seem to never miss. The previous map I was flying the F35B and I could only kill one J10, they just totally outmanuever other jets.

I've been playing flight sims forever and I consider myself very good, but when I play BF2(yeah I know, not really comparable to a simulation) its just rediculous.

I don't want to hear "A great pilot can overcome this" bullcrap. There is no excuse for just bad balancing. The J10 is a better aircraft period, up to the point where some guy who is decent with the thing can royally buttrape an ace. And all the good pilots know this so they go on the Chinese side, its just not contest.

This wasn't as much a problem when the AA wasn't super powerful and jets had to basically use machineguns for air to air, but seeing as the J10 seems to dodge all air to air missles its just annoying. The F35B should either get the same manueverability as the J10, or some kind of stealth capability like it does IRL which help it avoid missles, because the J10 apparently already has them installed.

If you managed to read all of this I salute you for reading my long, drawn out rant.

There's a tactic I use against J10's, I don't use missiles. I just stay in ground mode constantly and dive down from above to sneak up behind J10's in whatever aircraft I have. I get nice and close and fire as much as I can up their tailpipe, with the gun of course. As soon as they realize what's going on and try to evade me I break off for the clouds. Rinse and repeat. The only time I would use missiles against them would be in a situation where I know the other pilot isn't very smart/experienced, whatever, and/or is trying to reload ammo and therefore flying slow and level. Then I'll take some missile potshots at him. Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll hit, maybe not.

That's how I handle them anyway.

The J-10 is definitely superior to everything else, thanks to EA/Dice incomptence. IRL, the J-10 was designed as a counter to the Fulcrum and Flanker (MiG-29 and Su-27) in the late 80s. Even the now retired F-14 could fly circles around it, but I guess EA decided that air combat would forever be one-sided in the game. The F-35's a complete piece of shit...can't maneuver worth a damn. Seems like AA can't touch the J-10 either...I knocked the same pilot out of the sky repeatedly in a F-35 with the Linebacker, but I couldn't touch him in a J-10. Try shooting at 'em with the Vulcan on the carrier....doesn't do shit.

I can only wait to see how one-sided the A-10 is. Knowing EA, it'll probably pwn the shit out of tanks (like it should), but also go down after one Stinger hit or something (which it shouldn't).

*EDIT*: The Q-5 in Armored Fury? What a fucking joke. The thing's a flying fossil in the same class as the A-6. Su-39? Way to make shit up. It's the -25 which has probably been ridiculously overpowered. Gah, is there no game with valid air combat!

movax said:

Gah, is there no game with valid air combat!

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Well there is LOMAC... Or IL2...

BF2 is an arcade game. If you want realism look elsewhere.

movax said:

The J-10 is definitely superior to everything else, thanks to EA/Dice incomptence. IRL, the J-10 was designed as a counter to the Fulcrum and Flanker (MiG-29 and Su-27) in the late 80s. Even the now retired F-14 could fly circles around it, but I guess EA decided that air combat would forever be one-sided in the game. The F-35's a complete piece of shit...can't maneuver worth a damn. Seems like AA can't touch the J-10 either...I knocked the same pilot out of the sky repeatedly in a F-35 with the Linebacker, but I couldn't touch him in a J-10.

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"Initial development of the J-10 began in October 1988. Originally the aircraft was to be an air superiority fighter. The 1980s saw a number of similar aircraft designs featuring a main delta-wing and canards. The delta-wing, a triangular wing platform, offers two important aerodynamic qualities to a combat aircraft. First, the swept leading edge of a delta-wing stays ahead of the shock wave generated by the nose of the aircraft during supersonic flight, making delta-wing a very efficient aerodynamic wing shape for supersonic flight. And secondly, the leading edge of delta-wing also generates a massive vortex that attaches itself to the upper surface of the wing during high angle-of-attack (AOA) maneuvers resulting in very high stall points. Additionaly, the delta-wing offers increased survivability by having increased structural and airflow stability.

By 1993 the Chinese possessed an all-metal mockup of the J-10. Wind tunnel testing revealed potential problems with low-speed performance and less than expected maximum AOA at subsonic speeds. At the time, there was an ongoing trend in fighter aircraft development that moved the development of single-purpose fighters such as high-speed interceptor or low-altitude dogfighters to polifunctional aircraft that combined subsonic and supersonic air-to-air performance with air-to-ground capabilities. Increasing demands for air-to-ground operations called for an in-depth redesign of the J-10 to accommodate terrain-following radar, more and sturdier hardpoints, and entirely new targeting, flight control and navigation systems.

The first test flight of the J-10 came in 1996 with the help of a Russian made AI-31FN turbofan engine. It would take two years, however, before the J-10 had a successful test flight. By 1999 China had six prototypes: four of them used for flight testing and two for static tests. By late 2000 there were nine J-10 prototypes accumulating over 140 flight hours. The first flight of the pre-production model took place on June 28, 2002. In early 2003 ten J-10s were deployed to Nanjing Military Region for training and operational evaluation.

Development would not stop, however, as China also began to construct two-seat versions of the J-10 for training and air-to-ground roles. This two-seat J-10B fighter-trainer aircraft successfully flew in 2003. Preliminary designs for two new versions of the J-10 featuring single and twin engines and LO geometry were also completed.

Low-rate initial production of the J-10 was authorised in 2002, with the initial run of fifty aircraft to be fitted with Russian AL-31F engines. The J-10 is expected to achieve initial operating capability in the 2005 to 2006 timeframe, initially entering service with the 44th Aviation Division based in Sichuan Province. The PLAAF initially was estimated to have a total requirement of 300 aircraft, but this may be reduced to less than 100 as a result of the introduction of the more capable Su-30MK multirole fighter.

As the Chinese continue to develop and improve the J-10 it becomes clear they are interested in expanding its air-to-ground capability, thus moving from the original concept of a tactical air defense fighter to a multirole fighter-bomber. The change in Chinese reporting of the J-10, from the "Jian-10" ("Fighter-10") to the "Qian Shi-10" ("Attack 10") is proof of this intended move.

Russian involvement in the J-10 program was not limited to the AI-31FN turbojet engine, but also included offers for advanced multifunction radars, navigation and targeting systems, ECM suite, and missile warning and defense systems. For the J-10, the Chinese will most likely adopt the Phazotron RP-35 "Zhemchug," which is an X-band radar with digital fire-control sensors and an electronically scanning phased-array antenna. The radar features a liquid-cooled travelling wave tube transmitter; an exciter; a three channel microwave reciever and programmable signal and data processors. All critical radar controls for "Zemchug" are integrated into the aircraft's throttle grip and stick controller, and radar data is displayed via the head-up and head-down displays allowing for one-man operation.

The production of the J-10 has forced China to quickly adapt to current developmental trends; in addition to utilizing other technologies (Russia, Israel) for the benefit of its final product. The results are promising. Not only does the J-10 pose a risk to the Russian fighter export market, but it considerably boosts the Chinese air force's tactical offensive capabilities, especially vis-a-vis Taiwan." -

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/j-10.htm


F-35

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-35.htm

F35 is clearly a superior product in real life. However, BF2 is a game, a multiplayer game at that, and thus require everything to be properly balanced. Real life is all about being ...eh hem...."WTFBBQSAUCE" and to "PWN NOOB" countries.

alphaone said:

Well there is LOMAC... Or IL2...

BF2 is an arcade game. If you want realism look elsewhere.

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The issue here is slanted toward balance over realism.

alphaone said:

Well there is LOMAC... Or IL2...

BF2 is an arcade game. If you want realism look elsewhere.

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It is annoying that they give things the exact opposite properties of their real life counterparts though. I wonder what they were thinking when they thought, "hey lets make the G3 the least accurate assault rifle" and "lets have it so it takes 4 headshots to kill someone with a pistol". The A10 can take one hell of a beating IRL but I bet tomorrow we will find out it takes a guy in a jeep to kill it in two seconds. And of course the whole thing with the J10.

DICE also seems have a pendulum effect when they try to balance the game. They just shift it to the other side. People complain that AA is too weak, so now it never misses(except when in a J10). People complained about the blackhawk so now the minigun sucks and a FAV can take it down in about 7 seconds.

Personally I think they should just make every single gun more accurate, right now the have the accuracy of BB guns. I read somewhere the purposely made them inaccurate to make firefights longer, but that just makes the game more frustrating as skill is less of a factor because this thing called "aiming" is taken out of the equation.

At least the armored battles are fun and fair...

EDIT: All DICE needs to do is give the F35B the same exact manuevability as the J10, then its fair and balanced. If they went the realistic route they would add stealth capabilities and the F35B could take out 16 J10s without even being detected by radar. (Well, the F22 definitely can at least)

movax said:

Su-39? Way to make shit up. It's the -25 which has probably been ridiculously overpowered.

Gah, is there no game with valid air combat!

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There is an SU-39, (also known as SU-25TM and SU-25SM for older models upgraded)
Link

Just because you don't know, doesn't mean it's made up.

Easiest way to shoot down a J10 is in a F35. Fly up to about 800 elevation, and you can start moving at 3000+ miles an hour. Fast enough to outrun it and its missiles. Watch the mini map, you will be flying thru the entire thing in about 10 seconds. So spot him, get above him, and shoot him down from above. And if he does get behind you, use said elevation to leave him in the dust.

PS Talkin about untouchable- These are a few of my recent J10 whoring experiences

BronxBartoni said:

Easiest way to shoot down a J10 is in a F35. Fly up to about 800 elevation, and you can start moving at 3000+ miles an hour. Fast enough to outrun it and its missiles. Watch the mini map, you will be flying thru the entire thing in about 10 seconds. So spot him, get above him, and shoot him down from above. And if he does get behind you, use said elevation to leave him in the dust.

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If the J10 is behind you, you're toast unless you use the F35's throttling capabilities. Even then it's hit and miss. If you hit the "brakes" while the J10 is behind you sometimes he'll fly right by you before he notices your slow-down. However... a good pilot will slam you hard with guns if you slow down.

Bottom line there is no 100% effective way of eluding a J10 once it's on your tail. In fact, 80% of the time you're toast.

I find planes in BF2 annoying in general.

I'm used to flying planes in sims such as LOMAC, Falcon 4.0, and IL-2.

I actually find the helicopters to be more useful in general.

The problem with the planes is that the land is so small compared to the speed of the planes.

LordBritish said:

The problem with the planes is that the land is so small compared to the speed of the planes.

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A very good point. Lots of circling...

I just head for the sky and hope my flares actually work

In general, planes in BF2 are not a good fit and can rarely turn the tide.

Dropping bombs in planes is also annoying as hell. I'm not even asking for JDAMS or LGBs. I just want CCIP recticle like you find in most planes today. This aint WWII !!

LordBritish said:

In general, planes in BF2 are not a good fit and can rarely turn the tide.

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I beg to differ. A good pilot with good accuracy in bombing can easily stem the tide of an advancing enemy, even forcing them back.

Choppers fit in BF2 much more than planes do. I still like them because they make life more intresting when you're on the ground...

the mig is just as overpowered as the J-10 and in my hands.. rofl its over for the US side

LordBritish said:

In general, planes in BF2 are not a good fit and can rarely turn the tide.

Dropping bombs in planes is also annoying as hell. I'm not even asking for JDAMS or LGBs. I just want CCIP recticle like you find in most planes today. This aint WWII !!

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Don't all the planes already have a CCIP reticle (the circle with the dot in it)? I find it works best when flying straight and level, and at a relatively low speed.

Kevlarman said:

Don't all the planes already have a CCIP reticle (the circle with the dot in it)? I find it works best when flying straight and level, and at a relatively low speed.

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the HUD in bf2 is rather useless i dont even need it.

they should spice up the maps in a patch by removing one of the f-35's and replacing it with the F-18 on the carrier. the carrier deck is plenty long enough to takeoff and land any of the jets. considering bf2 has 0 flight physics you can land an f-18 on a skyscraper.

Throwing more jets at the J-10 won't help, since it's still unbalanced to hell. It really has an undeniable advantage in everything. They're near impossible for ground AA to destroy, and good luck outflying one in a -35. Maybe the next patch will fix it....hahahahahahahaha, no way.

And calling the -25 the '39' is cheating , but I stand corrected. Thanks.

The most effective way I've found to lose a J-10 that's all over me is to stand the jet on one wing in a hard turn (1/4 of a roll). Left or right, doesn't matter. Then, when my wings are perpendicular to the ground, and I'm pulling back on the stick to increase my turn rate, I finish the roll and pull back on the stick again, reversing my turn direction and allowing me to separate and extend, then come back for another pass on my own terms or go hide like a bitch, depending on how bad I got fucked up before I lost the guy.

For me, this works about 90% of the time.

EA and Dice have lost me for all time. Just as soon as ANY decent large scale MMFPS comes out I am gone forever. Please let Quake Wars get it right ffs I am so sick of the insane imbalances of the game. Even KNIVES and whacked out! The only good close range weapon is shock paddles.

On topic I will only fly the J-10 as nothing else is any fun at all.

movax said:

And calling the -25 the '39' is cheating , but I stand corrected. Thanks.

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It's all marketing anyway. The Su-25TM (and SM) are really heavily improved over the older 25, so for export the Russkies called it a new number.

I'm unstoppable in an Su-34 (30), or F-15 in BF2, given that there is a pilot in the fighter jet that actually covers me (read: doesn't let the opponent fighter jet rape me). I get over 100 regularly in the jet, whether I'm flying, or just manning the laser missle. I don't have any screenshots handy, but I'm sure I've got one lying around somewhere...