The Wiik After

I'm getting the hankering that Steve has a bias against the Wii!!! lol j/k, I'll let Reggie take your name down. Oh, and btw... if anything, parents will WANT their kids active while playing video games rather than sitting around like lumps. Especially with the obesity crisis going on down there :p

Hmmmm.... IGN seems to explain the Wiimote like this:
Q: What exactly is so special about the Revolution controller?

A: The Revolution controller may look like a stylish television remote, but there's a lot more to the device than its glossy exterior suggests. The remote-like peripheral, which has been called the "free-hand style controller" and "pointer" by Nintendo, interacts with a sensor bar placed above, below, or near televisions. The bar contains two sensors that communicate with the controller using Bluetooth technology. The marriage transforms the pointer into a virtual wand of sorts, enabling users to move objects and characters in games simply by moving the peripheral. The sensors read the pointer's every move in real-time space. They can detect up, down, left and right motion, and also translate forward and backward depth. The controller's sensors also recognize twisting, rotating and tilting movements. In short, any motion made by arms and wrists can be translated to Revolution games.
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EuroGamer has this:
A sensor embedded in the top of the controller, called the Direct Pointing Device, will allow Revolution to sense the distance between the controller and the screen, where it's pointing, and the angle it's being held at.
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And GameIndustry.Biz this:
The controller is similar in size and design to a television remote control, and sports a trigger button and D-Pad along with a number of action buttons - but the key feature is a sensor which Iwata described as the "Direct Pointing Device".

This sensor allows the Revolution to detect exactly where on the screen the device is being pointed, and also detects the controller's distance from and angle relative to the screen.
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It seems that perhaps the depth function isn't utilized in any of the titles we've seen so far, if the function is still there. Either you're in error, or many websites are :p And as for re-learning interfaces... sure, of course there will be an adjustment for us [H]core gamers. But most websites I've read are comparing it to the first time we used an analog stick in Mario 64. Considering how closely (and immitatingly) Sony and MS are watching this motion control stuff, I'd say that they'll be tossing their gamepads out for their next systems in favour of a similar control method. And Rich - when has Nintendo been known to make an easily breakable product? :p
 
Ok small difference between easily breakable and a GYROSCOPE! :p Parents will not be happy shelling out 50 bucks for a new gyro everytime little Johnny gets miffed at Mario and tries to fire the gyro through the wall. :p

I'm not kid bashing either, we have all been down the road of playing Mario Tennis screaming and cursing and kicking shit all over the room swearing the game is cheating us.

And also stevie, Steve and I have been discussing Wii lately more than anything else....oh wait you mean the Nintendo! Shit, I'm sorry. ;)

(Dear God forgive me I just couldn't resist).

Seriously though, I can officially say we have discussed it and we are both anxiously awaiting this thing for a myriad of reasons.

I also agree that the marketing has a ton to be desired but hey, the numbers will tell us everything we want to know.
 
Ah, I see. The millions of bucks that Nintendo did with R&D in the last few years obviously didn't go into high-tech console hardware, since it's basically Gamecube 2.0 in there, with some extra connectivity of course. It went to the controller, I'm sure, so I'd expect that the gyroscope in a system targetting to everyone (especially children, if Nintendo's stigma is to be believed still) will be sufficiently shielded from easily breaking.

And yes, I still can't wrap myself around the name Wii, since it still sounds pretty dumb to me. But, it's not as bad anymore as the day we all learned the name. I've almost gotten over it. Damn you, Iwata! :p
 
Hey now, I never said it was a Gamecube 2.0, not once did those words ever leave my mouth.

The fact is a gyroscope is a finely tuned piece of mechanics. It's calibrated to know left and right etc. What do you think is going to happen if it gets smacked around? I'm not saying they didn't spend a great deal of time R&Ding it, and making it as durable as they can, but it's still a precise piece of equipment.

You of all people should certainly know I'm a big fan of Nintendo products. I'm not trying to bash them in any way, just point out some flaws as I see them. You know, give my opinion, essentially what I get paid for around here. :p ;)
 
You didn't call it a Gamecube 2.0... *I* did, because that's what's under the hood, in addition to a whole bunch of connectivity hardware of course! :p

It's what is outside the hood that makes the Wii what it is, and we'll just have to wait until we can throw our remotes in frustration before we find out how durable the gyroscope is. That said, I've never heard of any issues with the gyro games for the GBA/DS after they've been dropped, and I'm sure the accelorometers in the Wii have taken R&D from those projects.
 
steviep said:
I'm getting the hankering that Steve has a bias against the Wii!!! lol j/k, I'll let Reggie take your name down. Oh, and btw... if anything, parents will WANT their kids active while playing video games rather than sitting around like lumps. Especially with the obesity crisis going on down there :p
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steviep....

Nobody has any bias here so you can kill that crap right off the bat. (no lol or j/k here) It's insulting.

When presented with fan-fluff pulled totally out of the air...we question it. When we hear rumors repeated as fact, we question it. When we see countless other insane statements made, we question it. That is what we do. That is what makes us who we are.

Now you are an expert on parenting now too? How many gaming age children do you have? I know you are going to post 25 links to 25 sites that all reinforce your opinion but I'll save you the effort...don't.

steviep said:
You didn't call it a Gamecube 2.0... *I* did, because that's what's under the hood, in addition to a whole bunch of connectivity hardware of course! :p
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Please back that up. You have no idea what is in those GCs. When was the last time YOU saw one?

As far as the Wiitroller.

So you are saying that it IS a 3D device and can actually sense where it is? It knows if it is 1ft off the ground? 2ft? It knows that it is inverted over your head 5 ft from the TV? 10ft? It knows that it is moving from 6ft back to 3ft forward in a golf swing?

Let me be the first to tell you...no it doesn't.

<start Wii joke>It may help if you get some actual experience with the Wii, touch one, try it out....I highly recommend it. Not that I am telling you you are without a Wii or that you don't have the desire to touch a Wii, you seem like a Wii toucher, I'm just saying it is better to touch the Wii in real life than always just reading about other people playing with Wii. <end Wii joke>
 
I'd just like to add one thing to what Steve said.

All we attempt to do around here is be a voice of reason versus the rumor mills and forum experts when people start to spew unfounded information as fact.

In this situation there are a lot of What ifs that have NO factual basis whatsoever around them.

Remember the 360 launch? Half the net was saying they were bursting into flames and killing small children when In actuality there was probably a 3-5% failure rate. Now I'd like you to think back and remember what staff was constantly getting the proper information and making sure anything that was said was either backed up or refuted with cold hard fact.

I will say this one more time, I am excited for the launch, I think it will do well, however I see issues, just as I did with the Xbox in some cases, and I as undoubtedly do with the PS3. I am going to talk about those issues because folks here come to see what we think so that they can make an educated purchase when spending their hard earned money.

And for the record, Steve and I have discussed this stuff, once again, and agree with each other 100%.
 
Rich Tate said:
I'd just like to add one thing to what Steve said.

All we attempt to do around here is be a voice of reason versus the rumor mills and forum experts when people start to spew unfounded information is fact.

In this situation there are a lot of What ifs that have to factual basis whatsoever around them.

Remember the 360 launch? Half the net was saying they were bursting into flames and killing small children when In actuality there was probably a 3-5% failure rate. Now I'd like you to think back and remember what staff was constantly getting the proper information and making sure anything that was said was either backed up or refuted with cold hard fact.

I will say this one more time, I am excited for the launch, I think it will do well, however I see issues, just as I did with the Xbox in some cases, and I as undoubtedly do with the PS3. I am going to talk about those issues because folks here come to see what we think so that they can make an educated purchase when spending their hard earned money.

And for the record, Steve and I have discussed this stuff, once again, and agree with each other 100%.
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oh, god! THE CHILDREN!!!
 
steviep said:
I'm getting the hankering that Steve has a bias against the Wii!!! lol j/k, I'll let Reggie take your name down. Oh, and btw... if anything, parents will WANT their kids active while playing video games rather than sitting around like lumps. Especially with the obesity crisis going on down there :p
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hey

http://www.cihi.ca/cihiweb/dispPage.jsp?cw_page=GR_1130_E

obesity is becoming a problem in canada too my friend...

it's also becoming a problem in Europe too...

just wnated to throw that out here...
 
Rich Tate said:
I'd just like to add one thing to what Steve said.

All we attempt to do around here is be a voice of reason versus the rumor mills and forum experts when people start to spew unfounded information as fact.

In this situation there are a lot of What ifs that have NO factual basis whatsoever around them.

Remember the 360 launch? Half the net was saying they were bursting into flames and killing small children when In actuality there was probably a 3-5% failure rate. Now I'd like you to think back and remember what staff was constantly getting the proper information and making sure anything that was said was either backed up or refuted with cold hard fact.

I will say this one more time, I am excited for the launch, I think it will do well, however I see issues, just as I did with the Xbox in some cases, and I as undoubtedly do with the PS3. I am going to talk about those issues because folks here come to see what we think so that they can make an educated purchase when spending their hard earned money.

And for the record, Steve and I have discussed this stuff, once again, and agree with each other 100%.
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I can't believe I am going to do this...but....


QFT
 
Wow, there are so many tangents in this convo :D
Of course you don't have a bias, you couldn't run one of the most successful enthusiast sites on the 'net if you really did have one. But Reggie will still be taking down your name, because that's what he does. I can't say that he'd kick your ass, too, but I'm sure he will at least try to slap you with his wii :D (lol I still can't believe they picked that name!).

As for my Gamecube 2.0 comment... well, the "Hollywood" chipset is based on a faster clocked Gamecube CPU, and the Broadway GPU is based on a faster clocked Flipper from the cube... at least according to Nintendo, when they said "it is an extension of the Gamecube hardware" and "it is about 2x-3x the power of the Gamecube". I'd certainly be more inclined to believe them than I would the rumour mills on the internet.

As for the Wiimote, I simply don't know what exactly it can do. But I just posted what usually-reputable sites (like IGN, GBiz) have said, and that is that the thing can detect depth as well. Perhaps it just hasn't been used at all in any of the games? I don't know. Until we touch and play with the Wii (LOL!) we just won't know. It'll be a long wait 'till October, when we really can find out.

Oh, and the children? Why won't anyone think of the children!!! Obesity is a crisis almost everywhere, but especially the US. lol - I can't speak for anyone here, but if I did have kids, I think I'd rather have them be more active while playing video-games, rather than have them sit in front of the TV like a lump with a stony-eyed stare clicking buttons as is the case now. If I were a parent, I think I'd mind less if games required activity than if they didn't.
 
Rich Tate said:
I'm not kid bashing either, we have all been down the road of playing Mario Tennis screaming and cursing and kicking shit all over the room swearing the game is cheating us.
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LOL, so true.
 
A gyroscope is simply a device that measure angular orientation.

It can give feedback upon how far left, right, up and down but cannot tell you the distance to the floor because it has no ability or reference point to measure. See below:

http://www.reed-electronics.com/electronicnews/article/CA6333419.html?industryid=22110

Now when they say it can measure depth that simply means it knows that you have titled the x axis up or down plus or minus y from it's zero alignment.

That does not mean it can measure that it is three feet off the floor because it has no reference point to where the floor is.

It will know it is moving up and down from the angle of the device because you are adjusting the orientation of the object.

I'd be willing to bet that a steady hand could move it up and down through the air maintaining a zero axis and you would receive very little to zero feedback depending on the amount of upset is applied to said orientation.

The very important part:

Controller sensors can detect the motion and tilt of a player’s hand in all three dimensions and convert it into immediate game action.
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That means it knows what your hand is doing in terms of x, y and z. It knows it went up or down, or left or right. It is measuring depth as it is relayed that the controller is now a half inch below zero. The hand tilt, not the position as it is relative to the floor, ceiling or walls.
 
It's not just a gyro in there, though. There is more stuff that we don't know about.
 
steviep said:
It's not just a gyro in there, though. There is more stuff that we don't know about.
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Agreed, but every story I have read has been the exact same wording.

No one has mentioned it can perceive depth in relation to spacial objects, and by that I mean floor walls couch etc. If it really could do this, don't you think that would be front and center on every Nintendo piece of PR?

I have yet to see that on any article or PR I have read, period.

Hey, if I am wrong I will be happy to retract my statements, but once again, it is my job to interpret simple fact and not make any guesses.
 
Rich Tate said:
I have yet to see that on any article or PR I have read, period.

Hey, if I am wrong I will be happy to retract my statements, but once again, it is my job to interpret simple fact and not make any guesses.
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Well, the articles above do mention it... but Nintendo's PR doesn't have any technical specs at all about what's inside it. Your guess is as good as mine - we simply won't know unless it's put to use, I guess.
 
I believe the sensor bar has something to do with its depth ability, as in closer or farther from said sensor bar.. Hence 3d.
 
steviep said:
OK, well - in Madden for the X360, how do you accomplish a hard, low throw to a receiver? What if you wanted a high lob instead? How do you do that? Natural hand movements are certainly easier to deal with than multiple buttons to everyone except us. As I said, want to move right? Simply move your hand right. Want to throw? Just throw! That's a barrier removal right there for the 75%+ of the population that currently doesn't care about video games, and a great way to POTENTIALLY expand the market.
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I know this is a day late, but, oh well...

I don't know about Madden '06 on the 360, but in '05 on the XBox, if you wanted to throw a hard, fast pass to a receiver, you'd press hard on the button assigned to that receiver. If you wanted a floater, you'd tap on the button instead. A heck of a lot less effort involved with that than with the remote.
 
*sigh* it's not about us (the hardcore). Sure it's much easier for us to tap a button, but non-gamers don't even want to pick up the controller in the first place! It looks like a jumbled mess to the eyes, and there is a steep learning curve with it. You replace those multiple buttons and sticks with fewer buttons and a gesture system, and you've got something that almost anyone can pick up and play. At least in practice, and as the intention of the system. Here's what IGN had to say about Madden for the Wii:

The Madden football franchise has always been solid, but it always seems to lean on familiar ways by simply updating the roster, giving the graphics a face-lift, and maybe adding a new play mode. However, here in the seventeenth installment of Madden we are given a new way to play. Using the Wii remote is a shock at first, but within a short amount of time you feel like you are getting completely immersed into the game of football.

Although we were very timid to play the game, our hesitations were put to ease as soon as soon as we got to throw the first pass. We found out pretty quickly that the control for this incarnation of Madden football is where the game shines. Made to be as easy as possible, the control scheme never felt contrived or difficult, but rather felt natural and simple to pick up on. Once we started playing the second time around, we found that we were completing passes and finding holes, even if we had to create them ourselves. Madden '07 makes good use of the motion sensor as it is used in nearly ever aspect of the gameplay, from kicking the perfect field goal to making the game winning pass. We can't express enough how much fun the control scheme was; We were elated to put ourselves in the place of the quarterback, only to snap the ball and throw the passes by ourselves. Even the most hardened Madden fans will find something to love with the Nintendo Wii's control scheme.

As mentioned, the controls are simple, but they do take getting used to - as all the Wii games will.
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Now, I don't know about everyone here, but it sounds like FUN to get "immersed" in a virtual game of football.
 
Hell it can't be too hard for a sensor to detect somethings distance from itself, it is simple trig.

Have something measure the angle that a straight line to the controller makes with the floor, get the distance from the sensor, and then run some simple trig equations. I'm sure we have technology to do that.
 
steviep said:
*sigh* it's not about us (the hardcore). Sure it's much easier for us to tap a button, but non-gamers don't even want to pick up the controller in the first place! It looks like a jumbled mess to the eyes, and there is a steep learning curve with it. You replace those multiple buttons and sticks with fewer buttons and a gesture system, and you've got something that almost anyone can pick up and play. At least in practice, and as the intention of the system. Here's what IGN had to say about Madden for the Wii:
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Dude, there's almost as many buttons on the remote and nunchuck as there are on a Gamecube controller. And I just can't see anything in the controller, just by looking at it, that would scream, "Play with me!"

steviep said:
Now, I don't know about everyone here, but it sounds like FUN to get "immersed" in a virtual game of football.
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I don't play video games to be "immersed", I play them to be entertained. I often play them to relax, not spin my wrists around or make throwing/swinging motions to do stuff that I can do easier by pressing a button.
 
From the pictures I have seen of E3 pics/etc. and what I have read, there is a sensor bar that goes on top of and on the bottom of the TV, that then measures distance and height of the Wii-troller. There is a site I can't link to here that has a ton of E3 pictures with close-ups of them and the various Wii-trollers, as well as the Nintendo presentations, etc. That is where I am hearing this from.
 
gamz247 said:
Dude, there's almost as many buttons on the remote and nunchuck as there are on a Gamecube controller. And I just can't see anything in the controller, just by looking at it, that would scream, "Play with me!"
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I DO! Hasn't anyone ever wished they could wave a lightsaber around, or actually be interacting with something that makes them feel like they're a gangster waving a gun out a window and shooting off rounds at chasing cops during a high-speed chase in a videogame? The Wii-troller looks like it can mimmick anything you could want, that in and of itself is exciting :D!
 
Barring the expert testimony from forum experts that never touched a Wii....

This is something that happens when you actually use the Wiitroller:

Hold the controller completely still in your hand (armpit, pocket, doesn't matter) and walk backward, forward, left right up or down...the on screen pointer (star) does....not....move. Now, if "the console's controller can detect its exact location and orientation in 3D space' with 'pixel-perfect accuracy"... It would move with you if that were true.

Now, if you "flick" your hand sideways/up/down/left/right to get the accelerometers going, it will move right along with you.

This isn't a guess, or a link to 10 other websites, this is actual people who have actually spent time with the controller. I guarantee you that once the NDAs / Embargos are lifted and people can talk more freely about the controller, you will hear a LOT of info coming out about it.
 
I don't understand what exactly you're getting at. If you hold your hand perfectly still and walk closer to the sensor bar, the pointer (star) on the screen wouldn't move whether it could detect distance or not. You're still pointing at roughly the same place on the screen in either position. That's why I mentioned that there isn't a game yet that could prove either of us right or wrong, because most use the pointer as only a pointer. Whether the pointer is 5 or 10 feet away from the screen only matters in the idea that the sensitivity of that pointer in relation to the pixel on the screen increases with distance. If the capability to detect distance is there, it would have to be programmed into the game as such to use this function. Who at E3 trying walking back and forth, anyway? :p
 
Hmm... it seems that perhaps IGN may shed some light, if it is to be believed with its latest Wii preview of Sega's new Monkey Ball title. Here are some excerpts from the preview:

It's all about the control enhancements, people, and this is where Banana Blitz has seen the most notable changes. When you pick from one of the four classic monkeys in the game and jump into the main mode, you will immediately notice a huge difference with the Wii sequel. You don't control movement with the analog stick. Rather, you use the Wii-mote to guide your little primates and their balls around the levels. The functionality is so simple that you could probably guess at how it works. When you want to roll forward, you merely gesture the Wii-mote forward. When you want to slow down, you pull back on the device. And when you want to roll left or right, you intuitively turn the remote as though you were turning a key into a lock. And frankly, there's not much more to it.

Even the brief demo of Super Monkey Ball features more mini-games than have ever been contained in any of the title's predecessors, which is fantastic. Better yet, the mini-games are rarely gimmicky, each employing different uses of the nunchuck attachment and Wii-mote to test your skill and patience. Here's a list of the mini-games included in the E3 demo:

1. Whack-a-Mole: Just like the classic carnival game, you use a virtual hammer to pound the heads of moles as they pop out of holes in a box. You only use the Wii-mote here, moving it in 3D space forward and backward to access different areas on the box and then gesturing a hammer motion to slam down. It works pretty well and we found it to be a lot of fun.
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Can the three of us just agree that we think it's gonna rock and we're fired up and call it day on this one? ;)
 
If the Wiimote can replace a lightgun (without flashing the screen), then it must be able to determine its distance from the TV.

Consider playing a game with the Zapper-esque shell with a single fixed target:
At a 10 foot distance, you must aim upwards at a 10 degree angle.
At a 5 foot distance, you must aim upwards at a larger angle.

If you can move closer or further and still aim (use sights on the Zapper-shell) and hit, then it must be able to detect its distance from the sensor bar.

If I were to design such a device, I'd use a pair (or more) of IR LEDs on the sensor bar and have an IR sensor on the Wiimote. From the angular distance between the two LEDs on the sensor bar, you can triangulate distance.

I do not know if this accurately describes the Wii controller tech (clearly, I've never touched it), but it would make certain types of gameplay much easier to accomodate and eliminate much recalibration.

(You could also reverse the emitter/sensor positions and get a similar net result.)

If I wanted to track 3-axis linear position, it would also use a similar sensor arrangement to counteract accumulated errors from the linear accellerometers. When you consider the centripital accelleration of rotation and finite precision of accellerometers, you will accumulate error relatively quickly, even using sophisticated numerical methods. Having a long-term stable reference would be of great benefit for that.
 
Steve said:
Obviously
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And obviously IGN does, if what they posted is to be believed.

MonkeyShaver I believe you're onto something. I think there is an IR sensor in the remote, and there are 2 IR sensors on the bar in front of the TV, at least from what I remember reading on IGN. There are also a series of accelerometers in the Wii remote, so what you described may or may not be exactly how it works.
 
Why is this even being argued? I thought it was common knowledge that the Wii would be able to detect if the remote was being moved closer to or further away from the screen. I'm pretty sure we heard that on day 1 at the TGS. Naturally the pointer won't move on the screen when you move only backwards or forwards because you're only moving on the z-axis.
 
Molgera, see Steve's post at the bottom of page 2. The discussion regards absolute position vs. relative position in time.

I still expect that the sensor serves to eliminate error accumulated while integrating (twice) linear accelleration. It would also be nearly-necessary to counteract drift in the Yaw gyro (you can reference gravity for Roll and Pitch).
 
MonkeyShave said:
Molgera, see Steve's post at the bottom of page 2. The discussion regards absolute position vs. relative position in time.
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I know the difference, but I think the way it works is only speculation whether you've used the controller or not. Of course I don't expect it to know how far off the floor it is, but it could very well know how far it is from the sensors on the TV. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.
 
Molgera said:
Why is this even being argued? I thought it was common knowledge that the Wii would be able to detect if the remote was being moved closer to or further away from the screen. I'm pretty sure we heard that on day 1 at the TGS. Naturally the pointer won't move on the screen when you move only backwards or forwards because you're only moving on the z-axis.
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Moving forward, back, up, down, left and right as I described does nothing if you keep the controller still.

If it were truly a able to sense the position of the controller it would know when it is being moved...Real time tracking, triangulation, alien tractorbeam or whatever. If someone that has used the controller (hands-on) can explain how it doesn't know it is being moved all over the room UNLESS you move it / tilt it enough to activate an accelerometer, I'd be glad to hear it.

I suspect it is just overzealous marketing hype trying to explain a very cool controller but making it out to do things it can't OR the feature is somehow disabled.
 
And the Monkey's right again. IGN's "best of" awards confirms that the controller interacts with the console with

1) Gyrometer
2) Accelerometer
3) Infrared with the sensor bar
4) Bluetooth with the sensor bar

The thing apparently can detect movement on the X, Y, and Z (Z being on the plane toward and away from the sensor bar) on top of the tilt/yaw stuff that it does thanks to the gyros and accelerometers. The only issue is that the infrared part that gives the controller its Z and pointer ability uses the infrared and doesn't have a distance as long as the other abilities. 5-10 meters for the Z/pointer function (5 being the recommended maximum), 10-15 metres for the rest (similar to the Wavebird in distance).
 
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