Why LCDs do not make great gaming monitors

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Icewind has nothing substantive to say as usual. He was having a fun day coloring in his LCD Youth coloring book until you disturbed him with awful things like numbers and analytical thinking. Ice....go take you kewl panel for a walk in the neighborhood. I'll give you Tootsie Pop, K? :p
 
Greenwit said:
Icewind has nothing substantive to say as usual. He was having a fun day coloring in his LCD Youth coloring book until you disturbed him with awful things like numbers and analytical thinking. Ice....go take you kewl panel for a walk in the neighborhood. I'll give you Tootsie Pop, K? :p
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I will thank you, can it be sour apple please?

BTW: I've stood by my decision of LCD's in a previous post here.... I need not repeat myself again. Thank you and good day. http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=904192&highlight=IceWind

Ummm ok, let me enlighten you. I play HL2 deathmatch, BF1942, Far Cry, NFS Underground 2, Freespace 2 andKOTOR 2 and I PERSONALLY haven't seen any kind of ghosting that detracts from the gamplay. And believe me, im VERY VISUALLY sensative to things out of the ordinary and my Hyundai L90D+ has never given me ANY kind of blurring or lack of contrast that makes me miss the CRT world. The colors are actually better then my old Viewsonic monitor. And the sharpness.....oh God the sharpness....

That being said, your posts makes you sounds like

A. Upset you can't afford a LCD and have to wine
B. Your a bored immature teenage dork.
C. Had a bad experience with a 25ms LCD years ago and still have a grudge.
D. Who knows, who cares.

That being said, me and THOUSANDS Of other gamers have made the switch to LCD gaming and have no intention of going back to CRT, despite the few drawbacks.

Have a nice day.
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Greenwit said:
Yes, it is a rant.....and as is typical with many LCD zombies, convoluted points and arguments. Just senseless things. For example, $$$ spent on R&D should have no bearing production needs or quality of the product. Not when CRTs have been around forever. You think by now that product has been improved to the point were it is quite good. And it is. Also, you are just flat out wrong claiming no research into CRTs, as Mathesar points out. Speaking of R&D and a tech badly in need of it....it's LCDs. Awful quality control (bad pixels, backlighting), one resolution, bad blacks, response. Yeah, the LCD world has a long ways to go.

Bright text and calibration? I tried that...over and over in fact. Problem with LCD brightness is that it can only be reduced so much before the colors look like h*ll. LCD technology requires excessive brightness in order to produce half way decent color fidelity. And you get, as a bonus prize, brightness way beyond ambient room brightness and practically enough to sunburn your face.

So manufacturers want to kill CRT production? What's your point? The product isn't any good? Isn't that what we all want as a consumer? A good product? Or is the margin on LCDs so high along with volume that it just makes more sense for a business to produce LCDs. So, we get your point......we should all buy LCDs 'cause the manufacturers find that they produce better margins and we should help them out as much as possible. Another piece of Guinness driven logic......Brilliant! :p
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First I’m the last guy you should call and LCD zombie, I have two HD TV sets both CRT based. I also have a 24” CRT Sony Monitor. So that blows your little theory all to hell.

Do I use my Sony CRT Monitor, no. Why? LCD simply kills it for text and everyday use.

CRT Monitors require interesting substances to be used in their construction. Harmless stuff like cadmium, cyanide, selenium and a few other choice chemicals none of us want to drink breathe or have around us. Asia seems to have no qualms about those things yet so they have become the major source for CRT’s at the moment.

You mention margin, again your ignorance shows. CRT is still the highest margin product out there. LCD and Plasma have next to no margin. DLP is a bit higher but not much. It’s pretty obvious you neither buy nor sell either at wholesale.

Does the consumer want a good product? You bet they do. The problem is they don’t want to pay for it. Show your average consumer a Pioneer Elite Plasma and they gasp at the beautiful picture, then they gasp at the price and go buy a no name, but what the hell, they are all the same right? Oh, I forgot, you mentioned dead pixels and bad back lights….yeah, the good ones that don’t suffer those problems cost more.

Why then if LCD is so horrible about calibration and all the other problems you mentioned has it become the standard for graphic production? Oh, yeah, I forgot, those guys buy the good ones. Thus higher cost, thus they must be no good because they are out of your and many other people’s price range. That was not meant as a put down, but better stuff costs more. No one seems to remember that back when the 27” Sony VEGA came out, it was $1500, we couldn’t keep them in stock. People who wanted a better picture were willing to pay for it.

Now, about gamers. You guys make up such a small percentage of the market it’s unbelievable. That leaves you with neither the big CRT makers or LCD makers really on your side, which I admit is a problem. A few companies have worked on faster and faster displays and they will come. And yes, those people willing to spend $600 a piece on dual SLI video cards will buy some. Some……..not a lot, not near enough but some.

Do try to get your facts straight next time, especially where margin is concerned. :rolleyes:
 
BillR said:
First I’m the last guy you should call and LCD zombie, I have two HD TV sets both CRT based. I also have a 24” CRT Sony Monitor. So that blows your little theory all to hell.

Do I use my Sony CRT Monitor, no. Why? LCD simply kills it for text and everyday use.

CRT Monitors require interesting substances to be used in their construction. Harmless stuff like cadmium, cyanide, selenium and a few other choice chemicals none of us want to drink breathe or have around us. Asia seems to have no qualms about those things yet so they have become the major source for CRT’s at the moment.

You mention margin, again your ignorance shows. CRT is still the highest margin product out there. LCD and Plasma have next to no margin. DLP is a bit higher but not much. It’s pretty obvious you neither buy nor sell either at wholesale.

Does the consumer want a good product? You bet they do. The problem is they don’t want to pay for it. Show your average consumer a Pioneer Elite Plasma and they gasp at the beautiful picture, then they gasp at the price and go buy a no name, but what the hell, they are all the same right? Oh, I forgot, you mentioned dead pixels and bad back lights….yeah, the good ones that don’t suffer those problems cost more.

Why then if LCD is so horrible about calibration and all the other problems you mentioned has it become the standard for graphic production? Oh, yeah, I forgot, those guys buy the good ones. Thus higher cost, thus they must be no good because they are out of your and many other people’s price range. That was not meant as a put down, but better stuff costs more. No one seems to remember that back when the 27” Sony VEGA came out, it was $1500, we couldn’t keep them in stock. People who wanted a better picture were willing to pay for it.

Now, about gamers. You guys make up such a small percentage of the market it’s unbelievable. That leaves you with neither the big CRT makers or LCD makers really on your side, which I admit is a problem. A few companies have worked on faster and faster displays and they will come. And yes, those people willing to spend $600 a piece on dual SLI video cards will buy some. Some……..not a lot, not near enough but some.

Do try to get your facts straight next time, especially where margin is concerned. :rolleyes:
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I have two HD TVs also....a Pioneer Elite CRT and a Panasonic plasma. What theory of mine (that you have 'blown all to hell') are you referring to? The problem I have with LCD peeps is that their arguments are often irrelevant or obtuse. You have not disappointed me.

So CRTs are made of dangerous materials? Have you informed the surgeon general by chance? Is using a CRT more dangerous than smoking?

Plasma brands do have bad pixels.....all of them. Even the Pioneer Elites. Even the Fujitsus. Many Fujitsu panels are build by Panasonic and I've seen the pixel defects myself. I've studied plasma panels for a long while now and last time I looked I have over 800 posts in the AVS forum. You are trying to come off as some know-it-all expert but I know the truth. I know you are wrong. Blow the smoke up your own a$$, sport.

Next......LCDs are standard for graphics? Since when? Just 'cause you say it is so doesn't make it so. More smoke....blow it you know where.

'CRTs make up such a small percent of the gamers it is unbelieveable?' You mean you don't believe it...that it is larger? I'm just trying to understand Bill-speak. So that leaves me with 'neither the big CRT makers or'.........gosh, Bill you kinda lost me with that intricate analysis of God knows what.

Thanks for the fun conversation, Bill. :p
 
Greenwit said:
I have two HD TVs also....a Pioneer Elite CRT and a Panasonic plasma. What theory of mine (that you have 'blown all to hell') are you referring to? The problem I have with LCD peeps is that their arguments are often irrelevant or obtuse. You have not disappointed me.

So CRTs are made of dangerous materials? Have you informed the surgeon general by chance? Is using a CRT more dangerous than smoking?

Plasma brands do have bad pixels.....all of them. Even the Pioneer Elites. Even the Fujitsus. Many Fujitsu panels are build by Panasonic and I've seen the pixel defects myself. I've studied plasma panels for a long while now and last time I looked I have over 800 posts in the AVS forum. You are trying to come off as some know-it-all expert but I know the truth. I know you are wrong. Blow the smoke up your own a$$, sport.

Next......LCDs are standard for graphics? Since when? Just 'cause you say it is so doesn't make it so. More smoke....blow it you know where.

'CRTs make up such a small percent of the gamers it is unbelieveable?' You mean you don't believe it...that it is larger? I'm just trying to understand Bill-speak. So that leaves me with 'neither the big CRT makers or'.........gosh, Bill you kinda lost me with that intricate analysis of God knows what.

Thanks for the fun conversation, Bill. :p
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Wow, you are more narrow minded then I thought, God help us if you breed :rolleyes:
 
Greenwit said:
The problem I have with LCD peeps..........
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Why do you have a problem with anyone at all? Why should you? If you feel they have no valid arguements and that you are right, why don't you keep it moving and enjoy your correctness? Some guys take this LCD vs CRT debate way too seriously sometimes. Get a life.
 
Here we go again.......One more thread turned into a flamesfest......
Why does it always seem that people cant disagree without resorting to insults??
This topic has been beaten to death....Some folks like CRT some like LCD...
I dont see either one as being superior..


Cant we just all get along :)
 
Greenwit said:
I have two HD TVs also....a Pioneer Elite CRT and a Panasonic plasma. What theory of mine (that you have 'blown all to hell') are you referring to? The problem I have with LCD peeps is that their arguments are often irrelevant or obtuse. You have not disappointed me.

So CRTs are made of dangerous materials? Have you informed the surgeon general by chance? Is using a CRT more dangerous than smoking?

Plasma brands do have bad pixels.....all of them. Even the Pioneer Elites. Even the Fujitsus. Many Fujitsu panels are build by Panasonic and I've seen the pixel defects myself. I've studied plasma panels for a long while now and last time I looked I have over 800 posts in the AVS forum. You are trying to come off as some know-it-all expert but I know the truth. I know you are wrong. Blow the smoke up your own a$$, sport.

Next......LCDs are standard for graphics? Since when? Just 'cause you say it is so doesn't make it so. More smoke....blow it you know where.

'CRTs make up such a small percent of the gamers it is unbelieveable?' You mean you don't believe it...that it is larger? I'm just trying to understand Bill-speak. So that leaves me with 'neither the big CRT makers or'.........gosh, Bill you kinda lost me with that intricate analysis of God knows what.

Thanks for the fun conversation, Bill. :p
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Welp, the childish analysis had to come; it’s all you had left.

I sell about 600 sets a year and install quite a few more, how about you? Oh, you do research….I assume your 800 plus opinion posts in the avsforum does indeed qualify you as some sort of expert. Typing perhaps?

Nobody I know in the sales and installation business takes the avsforum seriously, it’s a great source of amusement in fact.

“So CRTs are made of dangerous materials? Have you informed the surgeon general by chance? Is using a CRT more dangerous than smoking?”

It’s the manufacturing of the CRT that is dangerous, not the use of….more of your “expertise” at work.

“Plasma brands do have bad pixels.....all of them. Even the Pioneer Elites”

As a rule not the ones sold to franchised dealers, I have had 3 sets in the past 7 years with a dead pixel. What I have seen is what gets sold out the back door to “internet dealers”, those indeed do have many dead pixels, the same goes for Sony and Panasonic. I love when those people come in for warrantee service only to find they have no warrantee because the set was not sold through authorized channels. No sales slip from a franchised authorized dealer, no warrantee.

“Next......LCDs are standard for graphics? Since when?”

Since MAC became the industry standard for graphics production. THEY DON’T MAKE A CRT MONITOR, guess you didn’t study that part yet, I’ll try to find the page for you.

Oh, Pioneer doesn’t make a CRT TV, it’s a CRT based projector (now out of production), are you sure you own one? You don’t seem to know much about them.

The only one blowing smoke here is you, and you are not real good at it. :rolleyes:
 
btf1980 said:
Why do you have a problem with anyone at all? Why should you? If you feel they have no valid arguements and that you are right, why don't you keep it moving and enjoy your correctness? Some guys take this LCD vs CRT debate way too seriously sometimes. Get a life.
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The real problem is people like this live only to validate themselves.

The other thing is, it’s these selfsame people who “must be right” because everyone else must be wrong. They really deeply believe what they think and say even when they have no fact or experience on which to base their comments.

A sad commentary on life indeed because it is thier life.
 
wow, its getting hot in here. can't lcd and crt just get along? i think it would be good if we can all agree to this.

crt: people that like the technology and like what it has to offer
lcd: people who like to be thrifty on space and power.

we can see that there are different demands for different types of displays. so how about everyone sticks with what they like and not try to tread on others' territory?
 
The OP's point is basically that CRT's are superior for the miniscule portion of gamers who play CS competetively at settings like 640x480 at 125hz for the small advantage it gives them over those who play at normal speeds and resolutions.

So based on that I have to wonder why people are getting all riled up. What the OP posted is technically correct so you can't really argue with that part of it, and his basic point is correct too. It's completely irrelevant to 99+% of us, but it is correct in this limited scope.

So honestly there is no point to defending LCD's because A. You really can't within this context, and B. There is no point anyway because the entire point is about something completely irrelevant to everyone who isn't a FPS super-freak anyway (I am not talking about regular FPS gamers, just the ones who play hours on end at farked up settings just to get a teeny advantage).

So how about we all quit arguing, and just move on so this useless thread can disappear into obscurity where it belongs.
 
BillR said:
Oh, Pioneer doesn’t make a CRT TV, it’s a CRT based projector (now out of production), are you sure you own one? You don’t seem to know much about them.
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Pioneer Elite PRO 510. CRT designation is commonly used to distinguish the RGB CRT rear projection technology from DLP, LCD, etc. Direct projection CRTs are not manufactured at a screen size much above 32 inches....too small for most who want a home theater experience.

Happily, rear projection CRTs still held the lead in market share lead just several months ago in rear projection HD television sales due to an excellent price to picture ratio. Unfortunately, the flat panel 'kewl' crowd who enjoy their televisions as 'sexy' and 'thin' rather than displaying film like DVDs and excellent PQ, have flocked to inferior DLP and LCD technology. It won't be long before CRTs are overtaken and extinguished. The triumph of style over substance. Kewl over quality. Ironic that in the world of LCD computer monitors you have problems galore.....one resolution, poor response, bad blacks, overbearing brightness, bad quality control. CRT displays have very few problems in comparison but LCDs win market share. With HDTVs, LCDs and DLPs have problems with crop circles, dithering, crushed whites, poor/discolored blacks, screen door effects, silk screen effects, eye fatigue, banding, bulb failure, etc. But, again, kewl over performance. The shallow, lowest common denominator crowd will emerge victorious. It's a shame but it's reality.
 
Seems alot of people are forgetting a high end crt can display 2048x1536 at 85 or better hrz lets see your lcd do that! Your widesceen wont have near the display desktop space either.
 
Oh I just wanted to point this out again It seems to be a problem with Counter Strike not LCD vs CRT. Now you die hards may go on fighting the great LCD vs CRT War of 2005 forever again.

http://www.firstadopter.com/fa/archives/000171.html

I wish they would just lock the CRT VS LCD threads. This debut goes on forever. I love my LCD. Want go back now that I have mine and the Viewsonic 924X is great.

Also can you guys Please stop bringing up Toms Hardware out of date reviews about this monitor. He had the prototype not the production model. :p
 
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