"Star Trek: Discovery" Renewed for Season 3

OutOfPhase said:
I wanted to have a sassy response... but you're right. They weren't "interesting". I just resonated with them. And I'm not interesting. Dangit, misery loves company.

For the cyborg - I just knew from the outset she was a spring-loaded plot device for later.

Also the plot is generally awful, so there's that.
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That's not to say that something can't be done to expand their characters and make them interesting. However, the writers on Discovery don't have the skill or basic talent necessary to write good character arcs and dialog. We've seen four seasons of evidence to confirm this. Just look at how badly they've handled good, well established characters like Spock and Sarek. They've handled them with the deft and care of a Twilight fan-fiction writer.
topcat989 said:
If this site and it's members offend your sensibilities so, you don't have to stay. No one's holding you hostage here.

Just sayin'
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Well, he's totally wrong. I don't think he can find a single quote from anyone on the HardForum that made an actual sexist or homophobic comment as the basis or reason behind their dislike of Discovery.
 
Dan_D said:
Discovery doesn't really have interesting characters. They have some that had potential to be interesting but the writers continually squander and waste those opportunities at every turn.
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Remember how Lorca in season one was one of the most intriguing characters until his reveal, and then he turned into a one-dimensional moustache-twirling racist?
 
4saken said:
disagree. Hardcore trek fan here. Watched TNG/DS9 probably 30+x times each. DS9 has been by far my favorite for about 20 years. I still rewatch the whole series at least 2-3x a year. Discovery is fricking trash. It is not Star Trek. The way TOS/TNG/DS9 added "social issues" to their episodes were meaningful and meant a lot to the story, not just tossed in like the woke crap in Discovery which has no bearing on anything to the series. Haven't watched this STD crap show since end of S1. Probably won't ever. Just pretending it doesnt exist in ST canon.
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Grats. I liked DS9 too. I can promise you there was a ton of backlash against it. Don't believe me? Watch What we Left Behind. It was even worse than i remembered.
 
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1_rick said:
Remember how Lorca in season one was one of the most intriguing characters until his reveal, and then he turned into a one-dimensional moustache-twirling racist?
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I member.
nilepez said:
Grats. I liked DS9 too. I can promise you there was a ton of backlash against it. DOn't believe me? Watch what we left behind. It was even worse than i remembered.
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The show certainly had its critics but I don't remember significant backlash. I do recall that the final episode had a mixed reception. However, back in those days everyone had kind of assumed there would be some TV movie or theatrical release to continue the series. Obviously that never happened and never will happen at this point. I don't think it was the worst ending to a series I've ever seen but I don't disagree with your opinion on how well the final episode aged.
 
Dan_D said:
Of course, it's the whole "no other point of view besides mine can be valid, so they must be 'ists, or 'phobes" BS. This statement is absolutely baseless and without merit. When you direct this at Star Trek fans such vitriol is about as misplaced as it possibly could be. Star Trek fans are about as diverse as you can get by their very nature. Polls have been taken in the past with some 51% or more of the country being fans and huge fan bases in just about every country the classic shows have ever aired in.

You are wrong about DS9. While it had its critics at the time who did claim it "wasn't Star Trek" because of how dark and action focused it could be, it's ratings tell a different story. While not as popular as the Next Generation, It was one of the more popular TV shows at the time when it was new. It's ratings were better than that of Voyager and Enterprise. The show was well received among critics of the day which weren't nearly as out of touch with audiences as today's modern critics are. Contrast that with the ratings of Discovery. Again, the numbers don't lie. Discovery is a shit show.
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What ratings? Streaming doesn't have ratings (and if you're talking about it airing on CBS, nobody was ever going to watch it there (including me) As for critics, Discovery has consistently been well regarded by critics.

Dan_D said:
These new shows are not remotely popular with Discovery ratings on broadcast TV being at the very bottom of the ratings figures and well within a range that would have gotten any other show cancelled after one season.
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CBS aired it as a rerun. Not relevant. If they put DS9 (the best trek, IMO), it'd be cancelled. Period. End of story. Broadcast struggles with new shows.

Dan_D said:
The argument that all the real fans saw it on streaming doesn't work either. While we do not have exact figures, CBS All Access was a dismal failure with the service bleeding subscribers while the show was still airing and no real uptick at the start of the second season. In fact, the first episode was given away on Youtube with All Access being advertised with no real effect. CBS All Access was a colossal failure with it being replaced by Paramount+ in under two years of its launch. A good Star Trek show could have carried the platform the way the Mandalorian practically carried Disney+ in its early days. Obviously, that didn't happen so Discovery was hardly a success in streaming.
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It was renamed because they merged with Viacom and the Paramount catalog became available. Paramount + better represents what it is and with that rebranding, it's started going international. AFAIK, CBS is only in the US.
As for Disney, I have no idea why ANYONE without kids subscribes for more than a month or 2/year. I can go through all non-kid series from 1 year in less than a month. Mandalorian is, at most, a week and arguably 1-2 nights.
Same goes for each marvel series. Netflix it is not. If you're their for Discovery or whatever other shows, Paramount is about 1-2 months of content...and yet it's not bleeding customers https://www.statista.com/statistics/1047393/cbs-all-access-subscribers-us/

Paramount + is in the very early days. It's not in many markets with only a handful of European countries having access, North/South America and Austrailia. And yet Q3 2021 subs were 2.63 times more subs than q3 2020.



Dan_D said:
And no, this bullshit we are being spoon fed now isn't real Star Trek. Frankly, that has nothing to do with what Gene Roddenberry would or wouldn't have wanted either. I have no doubt Gene Roddenberry would have had issues with aspects of DS9, Voyager and Enterprise. I don't think what he wanted necessarily dictates what is or isn't real Star Trek. Some will disagree with me here but he wasn't the litmus test for what is or isn't good Star Trek. Some of the most popular episodes and films in the franchise history were ones that Gene Roddenberry reportedly hated. Whatever you think about specific shows, they all did what Discovery and Picard absolutely fail to do and that's explore the human condition in meaningful and interesting ways. I'm not saying they are all winners either, as I have plenty of bad things to say about Voyager and Enterprise in particular. However, those shows are more Star Trek than STD will ever be.
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Gene's involvment was marginalized after the first 2 seasons of TNG, so he's really irrelevant.

Dan_D said:
I've posted a lot of things about STD and Picard on these forums and I have never brought up race or gender as a reason for the show being bad. In fact, I don't know that I've seen anyone actually do this. Go
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I didn't say you did. I think you'll notice I said virtually all. Nevertheless, the use of Wokeness and SJW is always the first step to looking like an ist or phobe, because it's almost always a bad faith argument when it comes to entertainment. If the writing is bad, then fine, talk about why the writing is bad. I thought the wriging for the the non-binary character last season was poorly done, but that's an issue with writing, not with including LGBT characters.
 
Dan_D said:
I member.

The show certainly had its critics but I don't remember significant backlash. I do recall that the final episode had a mixed reception. However, back in those days everyone had kind of assumed there would be some TV movie or theatrical release to continue the series. Obviously that never happened and never will happen at this point. I don't think it was the worst ending to a series I've ever seen but I don't disagree with your opinion on how well the final episode aged.
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The first half of the final episode was great. The 2nd half was not. TNG's finale is still the best of the lot, but the series isn't a hair on the ass of DS9, which found it's footing after S1 and never slowed down. I wanted a theatrical release, but I can promise you there wasn't an audience. If it was released today, it might, but not then. I knew many TNG diehards that didn't like the show. FYI, maybe I used the wrong title, but i was referring to the DS9 documentary. If I got the title wrong, I apologize.
 
nilepez said:
Grats. I liked DS9 too. I can promise you there was a ton of backlash against it. Don't believe me? Watch What we Left Behind. It was even worse than i remembered.
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I saw it in the theater, hated the stupid new storyboard they did during it, but it was interesting either way as a fan. It's been my favorite for 20 years. To each their own.
 
nilepez said:
The first half of the final episode was great. The 2nd half was not. TNG's finale is still the best of the lot, but the series isn't a hair on the ass of DS9, which found it's footing after S1 and never slowed down. I wanted a theatrical release, but I can promise you there wasn't an audience. If it was released today, it might, but not then. I knew many TNG diehards that didn't like the show. FYI, maybe I used the wrong title, but i was referring to the DS9 documentary. If I got the title wrong, I apologize.
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The TNG series finale is probably one of the best series finales I've ever seen. Most shows try to change too much too quickly and provide a finite ending for characters and story arcs to their detriment. When it comes to what people like about a show, changing too much too rapidly often doesn't sit well with people because they don't want change. They want more of what they like and few endings are written by people smart enough to realize that. Riding off into the sunset towards the next adventure, even if that adventure is unseen may be cliche but it seems to work better and upset fans the least. It gives them hope of continuation and its generally more of the same.

I don't know how many shows get slammed for shitty endings, but a few I can think of: Lost, Seinfeld, Dexter, Battlestar Galactica, the Sopranos, Game of Thrones, etc. The list basically goes on and on.
 
Lakados said:
From the SG1 DVD commentary.

"The weapon is very good for filming, so we use it a lot in Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis. Other than e.g. the M16, the empty capsules don't get thrown out to the right, but they fall straight down through a special well. So if you want to film soldiers that are standing in a row, and everybody uses the P90, you don't need to worry about hot capsules that fly straight into the face of the guy next to you."
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Too bad they didn't have the AR57 at the time. Shells eject down the AR lower mag well.

2F13138951_10154239360230337_8629266674361579303_n.jpg
 
Dan_D said:
I don't think he can find a single quote from anyone on the HardForum that made an actual sexist or homophobic comment as the basis or reason behind their dislike of Discovery.
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If he could he wouldn't be using empty rhetoric.
 
nilepez said:
Grats. I liked DS9 too. I can promise you there was a ton of backlash against it. Don't believe me? Watch What we Left Behind. It was even worse than i remembered.
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So you are suggesting that somehow STD is no worse than all other treks, because not everybody agreed about everything regarding the previous ones either? That is one of the most intellectually dishonest things I have witnessed.

That's what fandom is about, some people like one episode or ending, others don't. Fans always quibble over which is the best character or finale, or series, or whatever. That's exactly the point of being a fan, being passionate.
No two fans will agree about everything. But that's very different than gatekeeping fans by calling them sexists and racists or worse for criticizing a particular show.

nilepez said:
I didn't say you did. I think you'll notice I said virtually all. Nevertheless, the use of Wokeness and SJW is always the first step to looking like an ist or phobe, because it's almost always a bad faith argument when it comes to entertainment. If the writing is bad, then fine, talk about why the writing is bad. I thought the wriging for the the non-binary character last season was poorly done, but that's an issue with writing, not with including LGBT characters.
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Representation does not equal wokeness. Wokeness is making the characters group identity their defining and often only characteristic. But LGBT status is not enough to have a likeable personality. Nobody gives a damn about the group identity of well written characters.

Talk about bad faith argument: It is calling people phobes and ists. Which is the very model of the poisoning the well fallacy.
I've explained why I did not like STD, of course you did not respond to that post, instead you continue to assert that everybody is sexist, everybody is phobic, and everybody is racist, who even mentions the influence of woke or SJW culture.
But what is asserted without putting forward a case is meaningless rhetoric.

i wonder why nobody mentions woke and SJW in regards of the orville. That has plenty of representation too, I wonder why aren't those homophobes and sexists complain about that show. Curious.
 
nilepez said:
I didn't say you did. I think you'll notice I said virtually all. Nevertheless, the use of Wokeness and SJW is always the first step to looking like an ist or phobe, because it's almost always a bad faith argument when it comes to entertainment. If the writing is bad, then fine, talk about why the writing is bad. I thought the wriging for the the non-binary character last season was poorly done, but that's an issue with writing, not with including LGBT characters.
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You need the strawman because there isn't anyone in this thread saying 'its woke and sucks', people are actually saying why it sucks and in detail. Your entire complaint barely exists in reality outside of Hollywood using it as an excuse for poor ratings on badly designed shows.
 
nilepez said:
I didn't say you did. I think you'll notice I said virtually all. Nevertheless, the use of Wokeness and SJW is always the first step to looking like an ist or phobe, because it's almost always a bad faith argument when it comes to entertainment. If the writing is bad, then fine, talk about why the writing is bad. I thought the wriging for the the non-binary character last season was poorly done, but that's an issue with writing, not with including LGBT characters.
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You're missing the point. People complain about wokeness or SJW because the plot is bad because of those reasons. It's twisted to make stupid points to the point it betrays the lore. Not realistic to the universe. Complaining about wokeness or SJW does not mean they have anything against any person's traits.

This isn't a great example - but one immersion breaking moment for me was when Tilly won a distance run. As a runner to me this was unrealistic and done for what reason? Woman power? For better or worse, it was the only thing that really bugged me about season 2, and I generally found Tilly's interactions with Stamets amusing and thought she was fine as a character. A little spastic for a command path but I was fine with her trying to advance herself.

Anyways - I can see how "wokeness" makes this show less, and my top 3 characters were the Empress, Stamets, and Pike....

You have to be looking through tinted lenses to think the Star Trek fanbase just happens to be riddled with racists and phobes just for the new series which makes no sense since we rewatch the old series over and over, where our favorite characters were trans/gay/interracial ect. There's a disconnect somewhere in this logic.
 
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Dayaks said:
You have to be looking through tinted lenses to think the Star Trek fanbase just happens to be riddled with racists and phobes just for the new series which makes no sense since we rewatch the old series over and over, where our favorite characters were trans/gay/interracial ect. There's a disconnect somewhere in this logic.
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It's a pre-programmed response. They see those words and just jump to conclusions to what the critic actually means. It was even flat out said. "Nevertheless, the use of Wokeness and SJW is always the first step to looking like an ist or phobe, because it's almost always a bad faith argument when it comes to entertainment". That in itself is a bad faith argument.

Saw all I needed to see of this show from Red Letter Media. Absolute junk.
 
NightReaver said:
It's a pre-programmed response. They see those words and just jump to conclusions to what the critic actually means. It was even flat out said. "Nevertheless, the use of Wokeness and SJW is always the first step to looking like an ist or phobe, because it's almost always a bad faith argument when it comes to entertainment". That in itself is a bad faith argument.

Saw all I needed to see of this show from Red Letter Media. Absolute junk.
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I see it slightly different, people like that are more afraid of what they look like than what they stand for.
 
nilepez said:
What ratings? Streaming doesn't have ratings (and if you're talking about it airing on CBS, nobody was ever going to watch it there (including me) As for critics, Discovery has consistently been well regarded by critics.
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Sorry, but CBS All Access was replaced due to its lukewarm reception. The ratings of Discovery on broadcast television are relevant as a result. Discovery wasn't good enough to carry the streaming service and we know a good show can as was the case with the Mandalorian on Disney+.

As for Discovery being well regarded by critics, that is irrelevant. Critics are shills and even if they aren't, your average critic is completely out of touch with audiences. The audience scores for Discovery are in complete contrast to the critics scores. That means that critics opinions are virtually worthless.
nilepez said:
CBS aired it as a rerun. Not relevant. If they put DS9 (the best trek, IMO), it'd be cancelled. Period. End of story. Broadcast struggles with new shows.
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Again, CBS All Access was known to have low subscriber numbers. Discovery airing on broadcast television was for all intents and purposes the first time people had a chance to watch the show and the ratings numbers had it just about dead last for each season that's aired. This is relevant. And if you put faith in sites like Rotten Tomatoes, you can see the disconnect between critics and actual viewers who haven't liked the Mary Sue Space Jesus Variety Hour that is Discovery.
nilepez said:
It was renamed because they merged with Viacom and the Paramount catalog became available. Paramount + better represents what it is and with that rebranding, it's started going international. AFAIK, CBS is only in the US.
As for Disney, I have no idea why ANYONE without kids subscribes for more than a month or 2/year. I can go through all non-kid series from 1 year in less than a month. Mandalorian is, at most, a week and arguably 1-2 nights.
Same goes for each marvel series. Netflix it is not. If you're their for Discovery or whatever other shows, Paramount is about 1-2 months of content...and yet it's not bleeding customers https://www.statista.com/statistics/1047393/cbs-all-access-subscribers-us/

Paramount + is in the very early days. It's not in many markets with only a handful of European countries having access, North/South America and Austrailia. And yet Q3 2021 subs were 2.63 times more subs than q3 2020.
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You miss the point. Disney+ was living and dying by the Mandalorian because of its lack of content. A good show can carry subscribers. It didn't seem to work for CBS All Access. Discovery couldn't carry it because it's a bad show. If you like it that's fine but the numbers say its trash. There are things that have kept it alive, mostly because it's good money Secret Hideout and Alex Kurtzman. They've managed to pull funding together via various contracts and keep it going despite its poor reception.
nilepez said:
Gene's involvment was marginalized after the first 2 seasons of TNG, so he's really irrelevant.
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I made the point that Gene Roddenberry's opinion on what constitutes good Star Trek is irrelevant. So in that, I agree with you.
nilepez said:
I didn't say you did. I think you'll notice I said virtually all. Nevertheless, the use of Wokeness and SJW is always the first step to looking like an ist or phobe, because it's almost always a bad faith argument when it comes to entertainment. If the writing is bad, then fine, talk about why the writing is bad. I thought the wriging for the the non-binary character last season was poorly done, but that's an issue with writing, not with including LGBT characters.
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You are once again missing the point. You make the assumption that calling something woke means that the complaint is that there is representation in shows and there is almost never any evidence that this is true. As I said, calling something woke may be oversimplification of the complaints but it's still a valid complaint. The fact is that most people who complain about wokeness are not doing so because the show has representation in it or female leads. It's a complaint over the evangelization and political agenda pushing at the cost of story telling. Stories on shows referred to as being woke are usually contrived nonsense that are built around political pandering.

You show me examples on this forum of people making complaints rooted in racism or phobias. You won't because that's not what anyone or at least the vast majority of people are doing on this forum. I can't speak to Twitter or social media as I don't really look at that.
 
Dan_D said:
You are once again missing the point. You make the assumption that calling something woke means that the complaint is that there is representation in shows and there is almost never any evidence that this is true. As I said, calling something woke may be oversimplification of the complaints but it's still a valid complaint. The fact is that most people who complain about wokeness are not doing so because the show has representation in it or female leads. It's a complaint over the evangelization and political agenda pushing at the cost of story telling. Stories on shows referred to as being woke are usually contrived nonsense that are built around political pandering.
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This here is the one that gets me, there is a good way to do "woke" case in point Brooklyn 99 "Moo Moo", which was an excellent and powerful portrayal of racism, it was completely on point and very woke in a completely unsubtle way but the delivery on the issue made it powerful and overall excellent regardless of how uncomfortable it made many viewers. Discovery, which I do enjoy and I do watch despite all its flaws, flounders on this, they try and I believe the actors capable of adequately portraying the topics they try to address, I think it just falls on writers and directors for the series trying too hard, many of their attempts come across as forced and nonorganic like its been shoehorned in there in an attempt to pander to some demographic of an audience. Which in the end just comes across as cringy, it can likely be attributed to young writers, they have good ideas they just aren't as polished as is needed to present the more difficult topics, of which many of the diversity topics tend to be.
 
Dan_D said:
You show me examples on this forum of people making complaints rooted in racism or phobias. You won't because that's not what anyone or at least the vast majority of people are doing on this forum. I can't speak to Twitter or social media as I don't really look at that.
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Exactly! When I think about great examples of storytelling involving racism in Star Trek, I think about the Original Series episode Let That Be Your Last Battlefield, the Next Generation Episode(s) Unification, the Voyager episode Nemesis, and of course, the Deep Space 9 episode Far Beyond the Stars. There are plenty of other examples to choose from, but the point remains that each of these episodes did a better job of telling their story than pretty much anything that we've seen out of Discovery so far.
 
honegod said:
woke = topic is unquestionable viewpoint
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dogma

woke is the religion the (those) non-religious created in its stead

view it through that lens and while the behavior is no better makes more sense, spread the message everywhere, silence the non-believers
 
Dan_D said:
Sorry, but CBS All Access was replaced due to its lukewarm reception. The ratings of Discovery on broadcast television are relevant as a result. Discovery wasn't good enough to carry the streaming service and we know a good show can as was the case with the Mandalorian on Disney+.
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And The Mandalorian is not even that good a show, just an average one, so what does that make Discovery?

The irony is that wokeness can't even draw in the social justice crowd since they are not interested in the shows, they are just interested in how woke the shows are. And if it's woke enough they move on, if it's not woke enough they try to change it or destroy it. Which is basically the same thing as the changes usually spell the doom of the show. See: Westworld or Star Trek itself.
 
I think wokeness ought to be this generation's Godwin Law... the first poster crying racism, sexism, ****ism, equity, etc (and anyone dredging up Gamergate) automatically loses the thread and must stand in a corner with a dunce cap on
;)
 
Lumpus said:
I think wokeness ought to be this generation's Godwin Law... the first poster crying racism, sexism, ****ism, equity, etc (and anyone dredging up Gamergate) automatically loses the thread and must stand in a corner with a dunce cap on
;)
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Nah, there are times when those are relevant (though they can definitely be introduced arbitrarily or spuriously). Besides, there's a degree of Godwin's Law-like behavior with the other side, too... in discussions about shows with minority leads, the odds of some neurotic person complaining about "woke/PC crap" quickly reach 1.

Discovery's issues don't stem from being "woke;" Star Trek has been woke since the 1960s, and it's a better franchise for that. It's a question of execution, not to mention whether or not you like Discovery's serialized approach versus the mostly self-contained episodes of past Trek productions. It's definitely not the best series, but nor do I think it's a complete mess like some claim. I've definitely seen worse shows on streaming and conventional TV.
 
Aurelius said:
Nah, there are times when those are relevant (though they can definitely be introduced arbitrarily or spuriously). Besides, there's a degree of Godwin's Law-like behavior with the other side, too... in discussions about shows with minority leads, the odds of some neurotic person complaining about "woke/PC crap" quickly reach 1.

Discovery's issues don't stem from being "woke;" Star Trek has been woke since the 1960s, and it's a better franchise for that. It's a question of execution, not to mention whether or not you like Discovery's serialized approach versus the mostly self-contained episodes of past Trek productions. It's definitely not the best series, but nor do I think it's a complete mess like some claim. I've definitely seen worse shows on streaming and conventional TV.
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DS9 found the right balance between story arch’s and self-contained. But that is a pretty hard act to follow, and the streaming data there shows that most people skip the self-contained episodes and focus on the story ones. With the exception of the Ferengi focused episodes because they are a hoot.

I’m looking forward to binging it shortly along with the new seasons of Dr. Who, loved Jodi as the Dr, but her writers … it was just one downer of an episode after another left me depressed, too many heavy topics one anger another with none of the classic light hearted brevity.
But I had to make a call a while back between crave and stacked and the wife wanted at their back catalogue of Hallmark movies.
 
I think what bothered me most was every person knows every single thing on a ship. "Go hack their systems to vent plasma". Not to mention it apparently is just easy to circumvent any system on that ship without knowledge of that specific ships workings, being a retrofit with a real AI on it. And with no other backup or subroutine noticing the change in pattern/performance.

And with Burnam being able to do everything better than everyone, why does she need a crew? Just let the plot convenient ship's AI do the work under her orders?
 
The only one that wasn't preachy was Enterprise. Too bad they didn't have any good ideas for it.
 
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