Windows 11 May Not Run on Early Ryzen, Threadripper, Skylake-X, or Any Pre-2016 Intel PC

For fucking what though? What exactly do we need encryption for?
Like I said, you need to go learn public key cryptography. Encryption is one use of keys, yes, but hardly the only one. There’s a LOT more to it than that, primarily around security and trusted binaries
Wait until Windows 12 when they no longer require TPM. It's going to happen. There will be consequences to not having TPM but it will happen.
Well see.
When you go ARM give me your 4790k. Will probably be more useful than any ARM device within the decade.
ARM is an very capable architecture- at least with performance per watt. As we move to more and more cloud-native apps that require less ties to the underlying hardware, the difference between ARM and x86 will shrink. Again, especially in the enterprise.
 
I've heard this argument for years. Reality is that if you use the classic Win 9X start menu (you know, the one that everyone on H was whined about 7 removing), it took more space once you had enough folders.

But I get your point. I can barely see anything when the start menu is open :rolleyes:View attachment 370942
And yet the masses are dumping desktop devices in favor of mobile devices. Microsoft know this, hence the reason for those fat fingered tiles in your start menu. With every update the mobile UI is being pushed ever so gently by MS in the hope people won't notice - They did learn something from Windows 8. Likewise with MacOS, with every update the OS is becoming more locked down in a similar fashion to iOS.

Then we have the increasing popularity of ARM based devices like the RPi, as a result hobbiests are becoming more and more comfortable with Linux as an OS, as Windows on such devices basically sucks.
 
Last edited:
And yet the masses are dumping desktop devices in favor of mobile devices. Microsoft know this, hence the reason for those fat fingered tiles in your start menu. With every update the mobile UI is being pushed ever so gently by MS in the hope people won't notice - They did learn something from Windows 8. Likewise with MacOS, with every update the OS is becoming more locked down in a similar fashion to iOS.

Then we have the increasing popularity of ARM based devices like the RPi, as a result hobbiests are becoming more and more comfortable with Linux as an OS as Windows on such devices basically sucks.
And in the enterprise, with containerization and other technologies being the primary delivery platform of all new apps and services, the OS barely matters, and the underlying architecture sure as hell doesn't if the HAL API is there.
 
And in the enterprise, with containerization and other technologies being the primary delivery platform of all new apps and services, the OS barely matters, and the underlying architecture sure as hell doesn't if the HAL API is there.

I just wonder, does no one care about efficiency/performance anymore? The HAL implementations I am familiar with generally tend to kill performance, anywhere from 5% to 95%. Once would think an inefficient HAL would drive up both datacenter electric costs AND result in needing more hardware for the same task.
 
I just wonder, does no one care about efficiency/performance anymore? The HAL implementations I am familiar with generally tend to kill performance, anywhere from 5% to 95%. Once would think an inefficient HAL would drive up both datacenter electric costs AND result in needing more hardware for the same task.
Gotten infinitely better. Virtualization performance is 98-99.5% of bare metal architected properly, containers are 95% of bare metal just out of the box (give or take). It’s close enough and good enough, and with automated lord balancing, you’re overcommitted to the point that you get more out of the kit than you would otherwise - which ends up being cheaper and about as fast
 
Gotten infinitely better. Virtualization performance is 98-99.5% of bare metal architected properly, containers are 95% of bare metal just out of the box (give or take). It’s close enough and good enough, and with automated lord balancing, you’re overcommitted to the point that you get more out of the kit than you would otherwise - which ends up being cheaper and about as fast

Yeah, virtualization I am very familiar with, and understand it is pretty efficient if you are on the same hardware architecture, but surely, if you need a HAL to run software designed for a different architecture, there are still some serious performance and efficiency losses, no?
 
Like I said, you need to go learn public key cryptography. Encryption is one use of keys, yes, but hardly the only one. There’s a LOT more to it than that, primarily around security and trusted binaries
You're dodging the question. What exactly is being encrypted here? Microsoft isn't looking out for your benefit, so what are we encrypting here?
ARM is an very capable architecture- at least with performance per watt. As we move to more and more cloud-native apps that require less ties to the underlying hardware, the difference between ARM and x86 will shrink. Again, especially in the enterprise.
You see cloud gaming gaining any traction? There's a reason for that.

And yet the masses are dumping desktop devices in favor of mobile devices. Microsoft know this, hence the reason for those fat fingered tiles in your start menu. With every update the mobile UI is being pushed ever so gently by MS in the hope people won't notice - They did learn something from Windows 8.
Oh yea? Lets see what Microsoft does right this time.

Likewise with MacOS, with every update the OS is becoming more locked down in a similar fashion to iOS.
Apple fell to #2 in computer sales since the release of the M1.
Gotten infinitely better. Virtualization performance is 98-99.5% of bare metal architected properly, containers are 95% of bare metal just out of the box (give or take). It’s close enough and good enough, and with automated lord balancing, you’re overcommitted to the point that you get more out of the kit than you would otherwise - which ends up being cheaper and about as fast
This is how I plan to migrate my main PC running Windows to Linux, but also making a VM running Windows. Lately I hear you pass on existing hardware without needing second hardware, meaning I can pretty much get the same performance of Windows in a VM as I would on bare metal. I don't have enough faith in Wine to use Linux exclusively.

 
...
This is how I plan to migrate my main PC running Windows to Linux, but also making a VM running Windows. Lately I hear you pass on existing hardware without needing second hardware, meaning I can pretty much get the same performance of Windows in a VM as I would on bare metal. I don't have enough faith in Wine to use Linux exclusively.
...
Yes it's possible to do pass-through for the VM (Guest) to fully utilize the GPU (and other peripherals as well).
I played around with this on my Void Linux machine - it did require a second GPU for the Host and an AMD card for the Guest.
Nvidia might work but they are fucking retarded about their drivers and disabling pass-through (although I think they recently made this easier with their blob driver on Linux).
I'd still recommend AMD since the amdgpu driver is included in the Linux kernel and it was a much simpler setup for the Winblows VM to use it.
 
You're dodging the question. What exactly is being encrypted here? Microsoft isn't looking out for your benefit, so what are we encrypting here?
Nothing. We’re not encrypting anything. We’re verifying digital signatures against trusted certificate or private keys. Similar to how HTTPS works. Chrome and Firefox both keep their own root stores, but those are vulnerable. A TPM, by design, is less vulnerable - it’s much harder to modify as you have very limited interaction with it. The trick has been finding a safe and secure way to store the private keys that can’t be futzed with easily. The fact that we can also store a bit locker or ZFS encryption key there is a bonus, but not the prime use case here.
You see cloud gaming gaining any traction? There's a reason for that.
Also doesn’t help that maintaining a 30FPS H.264 stream (VMware blast or HCX3d, haven’t tinkered with the hyper-v version) is difficult and (keeping quality high) latency sensitive. Also, you’re really limited to that and 1080P without the economics getting squirrely. I’ve demoed this running in my own data centers. It’s fun, but not entirely economically sane yet. You get 3-4 guests per RTX6000 card- it just doesn’t scale yet.
Oh yea? Lets see what Microsoft does right this time.


Apple fell to #2 in computer sales since the release of the M1.

This is how I plan to migrate my main PC running Windows to Linux, but also making a VM running Windows. Lately I hear you pass on existing hardware without needing second hardware, meaning I can pretty much get the same performance of Windows in a VM as I would on bare metal. I don't have enough faith in Wine to use Linux exclusively.


It works but it’s… painful. GPU pass through fully does pretty well. Virtual GPU (nvidia vgpu or AMD MxGPU) take licenses or special hardware. Another 3 years and we’ll have that nicely working I think.
 
Yeah, virtualization I am very familiar with, and understand it is pretty efficient if you are on the same hardware architecture, but surely, if you need a HAL to run software designed for a different architecture, there are still some serious performance and efficiency losses, no?
Docker.IO - if you’ve written the layer very specifically, it’s not bad. As long as you don’t need ring 0 level access. That’s why so many of the abstracted languages (python, c#, etc) are popular now. They care far less about the hardware. Running low level code in a container sucks. Running modern code in it…. Just really doesn’t. It ain’t perfect, but it ain’t bad. And they also make it really easy to build against multiple architectures as needed too.
Not my strongest skill set- I’m a virt and DC guy, but it’s the future.
 
For cloud gaming, Stadia works pretty well. Still not native quality (and it never will be) but it's playable.

The Cyberpunk 2077 experience was better than playing on an older mainstream system like the GTX 1060. Even games you wouldn't think would work, like Celeste, are okay.

Sadly, some games were just unplayable, like Metro Exodus, because of the lag. But the graphics look good, and 4K HDR is supported at up to 60 fps (though many games only get 30 fps depending on your internet connection).
 
Yes it's possible to do pass-through for the VM (Guest) to fully utilize the GPU (and other peripherals as well).
I played around with this on my Void Linux machine - it did require a second GPU for the Host and an AMD card for the Guest.
Nvidia might work but they are fucking retarded about their drivers and disabling pass-through (although I think they recently made this easier with their blob driver on Linux).
I'd still recommend AMD since the amdgpu driver is included in the Linux kernel and it was a much simpler setup for the Winblows VM to use it.
I'm thinking of the idea of running both the host OS and VM OS on the same GPU, just like you share CPU resources you could share GPU resources. I'm talking about VFIO which Nvidia supports on their server GPU's. AMD doesn't have anything like that so... yea. Or I could hope that Wine gets better.

 
If they're struggling to use Linux then they aren't as smart as you think. I have made many Linux Mint installs look just like Windows from the start button to the startup animation to the sound effects the computer makes when you use it. It has successfully fooled many family and friends to this day. What exact function of Windows does your parents need that Linux doesn't offer?

Most of the stuff today is being made for them, it's just that Microsoft is trying to please people like us as well and you can't make everyone happy because we know the shit Microsoft pulls.

That's not the problem here. The issue is that Microsoft is pulling some stupid shit and they want us to fall in line. The difference between your parents and us is that we know Microsoft is fucking us. We know all the technical details of how they're fucking us.

View attachment 371133
Yes, a person's intellect is solely judged by their ability to use Windows. Guess Albert Einstein was an idiot
For fucking what though? What exactly do we need encryption for?

Wait until Windows 12 when they no longer require TPM. It's going to happen. There will be consequences to not having TPM but it will happen.

What hardware and OS you using?

When you go ARM give me your 4790k. Will probably be more useful than any ARM device within the decade.
AMD 3600, 16GB Ram, 2070 Super, x570 Mobo, 1TB 970 EVO+ NVME
 
More likely additional control over the machine.

The idea that a piece of hardware is going to increase security is stupid. Security is a never-ending game of whack a mole in which hardware solutions are useless. Security threats can pop up in a matter of days and there's no way you can replace hardware in time for the security it supposedly provides to have any effect. As a matter of fact hardware security built in to a CPU is a liability. Take the fact that MS has said no to the previous iteration of TPM and people's defense of that: there are bypasses and security holes in the older version. TPM was obsolete before it was ever put into a CPU.

What happens when TPM 2.0 is proven to be problematic? Is everyone going to be required to upgrade their systems to get the new version which will also be obsolete before the first chip is made? What about the even worse possibility that it is taken over and used for nefarious purposes such as malware or locking you out of your own system?

There's a reason Intel's Palladium was shot down about twenty years ago. Too many people are like the boiling frogs from the old saying. The heat has only been slowly turned up over time so they don't notice or don't care about what is happening. Not only do these people not care, they're defending and cheering on those who keep turning up the heat.
That would be fine except for the fact that the media was constantly putting out FUD stories about CPU hardware vulnerabilities for the past decade. Vulnerabilities that would not have been a concern to the vast majority of users.
 
Yes, a person's intellect is solely judged by their ability to use Windows. Guess Albert Einstein was an idiot
Don't know what your parents did at NASA but if I can make Linux look like Windows 10 and act like Windows 10 then your parents shouldn't even be aware they're using Linux. Unless they played games, use Microsoft Office, and need Adobe products, even though you can use Office 365 online but we'll ignore that because they're old and probably use Office 2007 which actually still runs on Wine just fine.

AMD 3600, 16GB Ram, 2070 Super, x570 Mobo, 1TB 970 EVO+ NVME
I couldn't tell you why SWTOR runs slow on Proton. As someone pointed out on ProtonDB you need to use Proton-GE to avoid the laggy feel of the game. I use Proton-GE for a lot of things since it tends to work better than Wine, though not meant to act in Wine's place.
 
this isnt a linux promo thread ffs.


Every time.

1625241318802.png
 
Don't know what your parents did at NASA but if I can make Linux look like Windows 10 and act like Windows 10 then your parents shouldn't even be aware they're using Linux. Unless they played games, use Microsoft Office, and need Adobe products, even though you can use Office 365 online but we'll ignore that because they're old and probably use Office 2007 which actually still runs on Wine just fine.


I couldn't tell you why SWTOR runs slow on Proton. As someone pointed out on ProtonDB you need to use Proton-GE to avoid the laggy feel of the game. I use Proton-GE for a lot of things since it tends to work better than Wine, though not meant to act in Wine's place.

You know it's more than just what it looks like, so stop it.

The first time they go to install a program, uninstall a program, access a secondary storage drive, whatever, you know darn well they're going to know it's not windows, no matter what kind of GUI lipstick you put on it.

Even logging in with a password instead of a PIN or Windows Hello is going to clue them in immediately it's not Windows.
 
I'm thinking of the idea of running both the host OS and VM OS on the same GPU, just like you share CPU resources you could share GPU resources. I'm talking about VFIO which Nvidia supports on their server GPU's. AMD doesn't have anything like that so... yea. Or I could hope that Wine gets better.


sometimes I'm tempted to sell my 2 3090s and get an A6000 to use this but then I snap back to reality again.
 
You know it's more than just what it looks like, so stop it.

The first time they go to install a program, uninstall a program, access a secondary storage drive, whatever, you know darn well they're going to know it's not windows, no matter what kind of GUI lipstick you put on it.
In most cases... no they wouldn't know. Unless they're nerds like us then as far as they know everything is business as usually. Keep in mind I mention Linux Mint for a reason in that it tries to copy Windows down to the annoying stuff I hate about Windows 10. Have your parents go download Chrome and Google's website will automatically recommend a .deb file, which installs pretty much like any other Windows installer. Do it for Zoom, do it for Discord, do it for a number of freely available programs and the installer will install. Even Steam has a .deb, though I doubt they play games.

Either your parents as so smart that they recognize the slight differences which kinda suggests they know their way around Linux, or they're too stupid but then they still shouldn't recognize the slight differences between Windows and Linux and should use it as Windows.
Even logging in with a password instead of a PIN or Windows Hello is going to clue them in immediately it's not Windows.
Again, that's suggesting they know more about computers than you're letting on. It can be made to look similar and even change the wallpaper for the lock screen randomly like Windows 10 does. Also how much different is it to enter a password? Don't have your dumb message of the day from Microsoft? That crap is annoying.
8rsbpvokmw771.png
 
Last edited:
this isnt a linux promo thread ffs.
I think you might be forgetting about the final battle between heatlesssun and myself during December 2012 on the nightmare that would become Windows 8.
Now those were the days of Linux discussions derailing threads on new Windows operating systems! :D
 
This is why I think Chrome OS makes a lot of sense. For average people, not computer nerds or gamers or streamers or developers, etc. For just random people, a web browser is just about all they do on the computer.

In that case Chrome OS is more efficient, safer, cheaper, and just easy for doing things like browsing Facebook or scrolling on Twitter or whatever. While I can disagree with Google controlling the OS market (not sure that would be great), the main 3 desktop OSes are overkill for normal people.

Chrome OS is getting Steam later this year, I don't think people realize how huge this is. If the hardware and software support is good, it would fill a big gap in the market between Chromebooks (or what used to be Netbooks) and gaming laptops.

And it will also break the shackle Microsoft has on the PC gaming market, plus also expose people to Linux. Debian apps are coming to Chromebooks and you can already run Linux today (though the setup would probably scare some people).
 
Totally thought pendragon said "this isnt a linux porno thread". Hmmm.. maybe it is...
It's only natural that when Microsoft fucks up Windows that people will turn to the alternative. Since MacOS sucks, the obvious choice is Linux. Microsoft was due for a fuck up. They do it every other release of Windows.
 
In most cases... no they wouldn't know. Unless they're nerds like us then as far as they know everything is business as usually. Keep in mind I mention Linux Mint for a reason in that it tries to copy Windows down to the annoying stuff I hate about Windows 10. Have your parents go download Chrome and Google's website will automatically recommend a .deb file, which installs pretty much like any other Windows installer. Do it for Zoom, do it for Discord, do it for a number of freely available programs and the installer will install. Even Steam has a .deb, though I doubt they play games.

Either your parents as so smart that they recognize the slight differences which kinda suggests they know their way around Linux, or they're too stupid but then they still shouldn't recognize the slight differences between Windows and Linux and should use it as Windows.

Again, that's suggesting they know more about computers than you're letting on. It can be made to look similar and even change the wallpaper for the lock screen randomly like Windows 10 does. Also how much different is it to enter a password? Don't have your dumb message of the day from Microsoft? That crap is annoying.
View attachment 371513
Yes, they would know.

I'm not suggesting anything about their level of computer knowledge or intellect. I'm using my words to describe their responses to things when they are 'different'.

You go to login to Windows and it normally asks for a PIN but now it's asking for a password, you don't think they're going to notice the difference? We'd know it as a display manager login vs windows login. They just know it's not the same.

Pick up an Apple iPhone when you're used to using a Samsung Galaxy Android. You don't think someone's going to notice it's different? If not, you're deluded.

I really don't know why you are so fixated on trying to convince someone (me) that I can convert someone's desktop from Windows to Linux (my parents) without them noticing. A) I'd never do it; I get too many tech support requests from friends and family as it is. B) There's no reason. They're perfectly fine with Windows. C) You're either feigning ignorance to the reality of Linux vs Windows, or you're just trolling.

Regardless, you're more than welcome to keep shilling Linux over Windows, but you don't need to do it to me. I live in my reality, not you, so I know what I have to deal with every day supporting my friends and family with their tech support questions. There's no way in hell I'd tell any of them to use Linux over whatever it is they choose to use.
 
It's only natural that when Microsoft fucks up Windows that people will turn to the alternative. Since MacOS sucks, the obvious choice is Linux. Microsoft was due for a fuck up. They do it every other release of Windows.
Really have to laugh at this, since it's detached from reality.

Historically, when Microsoft screws up it's either Apple that benefits, or no one does. Vista drove hordes of people to the Mac. Windows 8 led to a small increase for Apple, but it mainly sparked a huge slump in PC sales as people were reluctant to use the new UI unless they had to get it with a new machine.

In all cases, however, they did not switch to Linux in any significant numbers. Chrome OS' pandemic-related surge is as close as you get, and will hopefully light a fire under the industry as a whole. But guess who saw one of the largest market share surges by vendor? That's right, Apple.

Conventional Linux is still mainly appealing to enthusiasts and IT staff. Most PC buyers don't even know Linux exists; for those that do, switching to Linux requires a Windows release so bad that they won't just sit things out... and an aversion to Apple so strong (even if it's just for financial reasons) that a Mac isn't an option. And while Windows 11 might continue Microsoft's "every other Windows release is bad" tradition, I don't see it as so terrible that it would prompt an exodus to Linux. Most likely, it'll hurt business PC sales and might lead to a slight uptick in Mac sales. It's a marketing gift to Apple, that much is for sure.
 
I've been running it for 3 days now, and so far I like it fine. It improves a lot of things, and of the 2 annoyances I have experienced, 1 is easily changed via a taskbar setting

Annoyance 1: Task bar has 'centered' start menu and icons and is missing the system tray - used a setting to set it back to the left hand corner where it belongs and lo! the system tray also returned.

Annoyance 2: Rt-clicking on the Start Button only offers Powershell, again. I strongly prefer Command Prompt and thus far, I have found no setting to revert this change like there is in Windows 10. I can still manually run CMD to get it so it's not a problem... just an annoyance.
 
Frank Lesniak (@FrankLesniak) Tweeted:
I suspect that HVCI/Device Guard/Memory Protection is the control that allows Android apps to run on Windows with sufficient isolation (i.e., without introducing a security nightmare).
https://twitter.com/FrankLesniak/status/1409737203975135233?s=20

Old article from 3 years ago (worst case performance on unsupported CPUs can be a 200x hit)

Brent Arkley (@Borecxx) Tweeted:
The performance impact of Device Guard (HVCI) without MBEC https://t.co/U1d4XGKBxP #Windows10 #HVCI #DeviceGuard
https://twitter.com/Borecxx/status/1026099855914135554?s=20

What I did find was a line in the Windows Internals 7th Edition book by Mark Russinovich and Alex Ionescu. It states:

The Secure Kernel relies on the Mode-Based Execution Control (MBEC) feature, if present in hardware, which enhances the SLAT with a user/kernel executable bit, or the hypervisor’s software emulation of this feature, called Restricted User Mode (RUM).
So here is our first evidence of a potential performance point. If MBEC is not available then it uses Software Emulation in the form of RUM.

The next insight came from Rafal Wojtczuks VBS Security Analysis from 2016

The problem arises when the configuration allows unsigned usermode code and only signed kernelmode code. Intel CPUs use same EPT table regardless whether running VM usermode or kernelmode

This problem was considered in secvisor paper [scv], and although it is not stated explicitly in any official MS document, VBS-enforced KMCI uses very similar approach. The scenario below starts with usermode running unsigned code:

Naturally, in case of unsigned usermode code, such approach results in many additional vmexits, and this impacts performance. In the worst case scenario involving Hyper-V running in VM and the workload consisting of executing nonexistent syscall in a tight loop (from a location in unsigned usermode page), the performance hit was x200. Yes, 20000% slowdown. Again, signed usermode code performance is not impacted (because there are no uEPT->eEPT transitions).
The full document is here:
https://www.blackhat.com/docs/us-16...ndows-10-Virtualization-Based-Security-wp.pdf
or youtube video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_646Gmr_uo0
 
Historically, when Microsoft screws up it's either Apple that benefits, or no one does. Vista drove hordes of people to the Mac. Windows 8 led to a small increase for Apple, but it mainly sparked a huge slump in PC sales as people were reluctant to use the new UI unless they had to get it with a new machine.
Historically you're correct because Mac was the only other choice. Linux during the late 2000's was horrible. I remember having a hard time getting wifi and sound working because in most installations you didn't have either working by default.
In all cases, however, they did not switch to Linux in any significant numbers. Chrome OS' pandemic-related surge is as close as you get, and will hopefully light a fire under the industry as a whole. But guess who saw one of the largest market share surges by vendor? That's right, Apple.
To be honest, more people end up sticking with the older version of the OS than switching over to Apple. Windows XP was such a problem that Microsoft included a copy of it with Windows 7. Windows 7 was such a problem that Microsoft had to force people to upgrade to Windows 10. Apple certainly sees a surge of people switching to Apple but I feel this time things will be different.
Conventional Linux is still mainly appealing to enthusiasts and IT staff. Most PC buyers don't even know Linux exists; for those that do, switching to Linux requires a Windows release so bad that they won't just sit things out... and an aversion to Apple so strong (even if it's just for financial reasons) that a Mac isn't an option. And while Windows 11 might continue Microsoft's "every other Windows release is bad" tradition, I don't see it as so terrible that it would prompt an exodus to Linux. Most likely, it'll hurt business PC sales and might lead to a slight uptick in Mac sales. It's a marketing gift to Apple, that much is for sure.
Most likely we'll see more people sticking with Windows 10 with Microsoft eventually retracting the requirement for SecureBoot and TPM. Linux is different today thanks to Valve's massive efforts to evolve the OS. Mac made sense when Apple went x86 and even though MacOS isn't compatible with Windows applications, it didn't really matter with features like Parallels and Boot Camp. With the introduction of the M1 that's all gone now, but Linux has done a lot to increase compatibility with Windows applications through Wine. With hardware pass through one can even run a VM of Windows with near 100% the same performance. You can also customize the UI to act and feel like Windows where as MacOS doesn't allow that.
 
It's only natural that when Microsoft fucks up Windows that people will turn to the alternative. Since MacOS sucks, the obvious choice is Linux. Microsoft was due for a fuck up. They do it every other release of Windows.
So many that Linux has what, 1% market share? Or have they managed to break the 2% barrier...nm I looked it up 2.6%. Many they're on a tear. If this keeps up, by 2040 they might have 5% market share. I've been in IT for decades and I can count the number of people who abandoned Windows for linux on one hand. And if I limit it to non IT types, then I need no limbs at all, because NONE have switched.

Again, this switch to Linux has been coming for 20 years and 2.6% penetration. That's a big fat nothing burger. The only way it goes mainstream is if MS decides to build Windows on top of Linux. Only then might it fully shed it's original credo: it was hard to write it should be hard to use (*)

(*) for non technical users
 
To be honest, more people end up sticking with the older version of the OS than switching over to Apple. Windows XP was such a problem that Microsoft included a copy of it with Windows 7. Windows 7 was such a problem that Microsoft had to force people to upgrade to Windows 10. Apple certainly sees a surge of people switching to Apple but I feel this time things will be different.
That's probably the case for Windows. Sticking with your existing OS costs approximately zero unless you're replacing the machine at the same time.

As for Apple... I suspect it'll have healthy sales growth, but Windows 11 may only play a small role in that increase. It'll more likely come down to improved competitiveness for Apple Silicon Macs, especially if Intel doesn't bounce back in a timely fashion.


Most likely we'll see more people sticking with Windows 10 with Microsoft eventually retracting the requirement for SecureBoot and TPM. Linux is different today thanks to Valve's massive efforts to evolve the OS. Mac made sense when Apple went x86 and even though MacOS isn't compatible with Windows applications, it didn't really matter with features like Parallels and Boot Camp. With the introduction of the M1 that's all gone now, but Linux has done a lot to increase compatibility with Windows applications through Wine. With hardware pass through one can even run a VM of Windows with near 100% the same performance. You can also customize the UI to act and feel like Windows where as MacOS doesn't allow that.
Well, if Microsoft removes those SecureBoot and TPM requirements. I don't think this is quite "Xbox One DRM circa E3 2013" bad, even if it does invite that analogy.

I suspect the main result will be people holding on to Windows 10, as I said, but I don't think Apple's situation is bad like you claim. Boot Camp mattered a lot when local software was more important and Mac performance wasn't really going to stand out. It still has some use, but virtualization and the cloud have reduced much of that need. (I'd add that Windows on ARM runs very well in Parallels on the Mac, but Microsoft doesn't sell a standalone copy of that yet). And importantly, there's a better reason to stick to macOS thanks to the performance and battery life gains.
 
You go to login to Windows and it normally asks for a PIN but now it's asking for a password, you don't think they're going to notice the difference? We'd know it as a display manager login vs windows login. They just know it's not the same.
When has Windows asked for a PIN? It just asks me for a password.
Pick up an Apple iPhone when you're used to using a Samsung Galaxy Android. You don't think someone's going to notice it's different? If not, you're deluded.
If I install a custom launcher you won't notice.

I really don't know why you are so fixated on trying to convince someone (me) that I can convert someone's desktop from Windows to Linux (my parents) without them noticing. A) I'd never do it; I get too many tech support requests from friends and family as it is. B) There's no reason. They're perfectly fine with Windows. C) You're either feigning ignorance to the reality of Linux vs Windows, or you're just trolling.
I have done it successfully to many friends and family because I don't like dealing with technical support. The only exception is when someone uses it to play games, like Roblox for example is a problem for me since I can't get Roblox to work on Linux for the life of me. Windows breaks all the time and family members tend to download stuff that breaks the OS all the time. Most malware like to break Windows update to prevent an update from removing it. So I install Linux and disguise it as Windows to prevent these problems. They don't know because as far as they know it's Windows.
Regardless, you're more than welcome to keep shilling Linux over Windows, but you don't need to do it to me. I live in my reality, not you, so I know what I have to deal with every day supporting my friends and family with their tech support questions. There's no way in hell I'd tell any of them to use Linux over whatever it is they choose to use.
For a guy living in reality you seem awfully upset over discussing about OS's. I've done it multiple times with great success. Here's a snapshot of my sisters laptop that I've fixed for her. Other than the obvious background that I've chosen, the differences between Windows 10 and this skinned Linux Mint are hard to distinguish. Now that I think about it the look is more like Windows 7. Oh well.

Screenshot from 2021-07-03 13-54-14.png
 
Last edited:
This was widely known at the time and documented.

Translation: "I don't know, and I have no proof, but other people know, and other people have proof, i swear!"


That article says nothing about how the supposed "forced" update actually occurred. The article is about a complaint (unproven accusations) brought during a lawsuit. Microsoft's lawyers probably cost more than $10k per hour so it's not surprising that they settled. If you are under the impression that a settlement constitutes proof of anything other than a financial decision, then you are pretty sheltered.

Your article also said that the free upgrade ended... when in reality it still works to this day. Doesn't seem like there is a lot of fact checking going on in that article... more like clickbait.

Microsoft made the free Windows 10 upgrade easy, and there were probably a few people who did it without really knowing what they were doing, but that's a far cry from being "forced".

If Microsoft had not made upgrades from Windows 7 easy and free then you'd be right on the other side complaining that they abandoned their users as you continue pushing your linux fantasies.
 
Back
Top