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It is (I imagine concert ticket scalping being illegal in 15 of the state in USA and elsewhere was one of the first step, scalping laws on console would be in many place an extension of the already present scalping laws.Slippery slope if you support government legislating stuff like this
It seem just impossible for a websites that would want to decide to not sell to scalpers to not sell to them too (and not sure how legal it would be for them)The onus is on the specific websites to decide what is acceptable and what is not.
Capitalism +1, intrusive government -10
For the record, this is NOT directed at any specific person. When I say "you" it is a total generic term for anybody having a differing viewpoint as myself in this discussion.
Slippery slope if you support government legislating stuff like this. You may support it now for "personal" reasons, but there will come a day when you will be on the other side crying foul. Do I support the practice? Nope, total dick moves, but it is not something the government should be getting involved with. If you want to argue about Bots and such, that's a different topic all together, but still not within the purview of government. The onus is on the specific websites to decide what is acceptable and what is not. Free markets. Best way to stop it is just DON'T buy from them. Don't be all jelly because there are people out there WILLING to spend a crazy amount of money on a "this" or a "that". Lots of people are far more wealthy than others and that's just the way of the world. It is quite simple. Supply and demand. It is what makes the United States the greatest country on the planet. https://www.escapistmagazine.com/v2...strating-millions-could-the-law-end-scalping/ Pretty spot on, imho. Only change would be NO laws in reference to reselling. TOO arbitrary and like I said earlier, slippery slope. Feel free to disagree, but take emotion out of it and both myself and the article are right. BTW, Don't care what other lesser countries do to their "subjects". (BTW, Consoles suck anyway )
The Government struggles with basic laws on Technology, a law to inhibit bots would look like what coming from clueless lawmakers? A disaster. Companies need to be pressured by their customer base to "do the right thing" and inhibit bots. How that should occur I'm not sure but laws are not the answer here.Ya, simple basic laws even that require businesses to take a minimum level of steps to prevent bots. From there they can do more, or not and if it is found somehow that bots bought them all (not sure how any could prove this either way?)
You may support it now for "personal" reasons, but there will come a day when you will be on the other side crying foul.
I have no idea why government should be interested in this outside of tax collection. Maybe make a re-sale tax. Any item retail bought to be re sold as is gets taxed by x?
I agree, but in the US we now have "do not call" registries, and as you well know, that law hasn't stopped all the phone spammers.What should be done is banning the use of bots or the sale of products to bots. Level the playing field and it’ll already be 10x better than it is now.
The problem here is no laws here eventually leads to complete market control by the scalpers as they buy all available inventory. Neither the retailers nor manufactures have any motivation to counter the scalpers as they sell out either way. The barriers to entry are also high enough no new competitor will be able to enter at volumes sufficient to break the scalpers control. Market manipulation is a bitch, and is why even free markets prevent monopolies.A law for this would be a ridiculous government overreach. Just say no.
I can tell you, with 100% certainty, that there will never be a day where I run a bot network, buy up all of the inventory for a hot product at retail stores, and then use that monopoly to try to take advantage of people by ripping them off.
And how do you know that scalpers don't operate in China? There are a lot of shady business practices there. That's why a lot of people will buy baby formula or prefer medicines made by non-Chinese companies.You may be young. You need to see the bigger picture is what he is saying, not saying that you may be scalper in the future. It is simply a free market, people will pay what they want to pay. Government has no business in this matter and if you are ok with the government overreaching, be careful what you wish for. Maybe looking that worse case scenario, do you want to live in China? where social score is dictating how you live your life..
You are missing the point of my statement. I am not saying anyone will decided to be a scalper. What I AM saying is that there will be an issue, instance or specific situation that you support that others will be seeking relief by way of government intervention/legislation and then you will be upset or complain about the government overstepping their mandates based on what you feel is right. It always happens. Seems most people are fine with the government trampling on rights, until its THEIR right under the boot the, not so fun. People need to use logic, facts and intelligence to look at things that threaten liberty and not use raw emotion to make decisions. This country is great because of the Constitution and the restrictions IT places on Government NOT freedoms the Government grants us. We are BORN with rights and the Government works for US, not the other way around. If you don't agree, or this concept is foreign to you, please feel free to do some research as I am sure none of this has been taught in public schools for a VERY long time.I can tell you, with 100% certainty, that there will never be a day where I run a bot network, buy up all of the inventory for a hot product at retail stores, and then use that monopoly to try to take advantage of people by ripping them off.
Exactly. What if the tables are turned, on hard times and I need some extra cash while having access to high demand goods. Let me cash in.I hate the scalpers. However, I accept that it is a consequence of having a free market. I'd rather have to put up with scalpers than the alternative of an ever over reaching government.
I also do not agree with laws prohibiting ticket scalping. Just because there ARE these types of laws, doesn't make them good. There are soooo many instances of Gov abuse when it comes to regulation and legislation. TBH, it makes me quite angry and how I deal with it is to attempt to give logical reasons and arguments against these blatant infringements.It is (I imagine concert ticket scalping being illegal in 15 of the state in USA and elsewhere was one of the first step, scalping laws on console would be in many place an extension of the already present scalping laws.
I think you are article mention, putting pressure on the resellers and the amazon/ebay of the world, the talk and menace of a law is probably a good way to put such pressure.
It seem just impossible for a websites that would want to decide to not sell to scalpers to not sell to them too (and not sure how legal it would be for them)
Profiteering / price gouging is not a desired behavior even in free markets - see laws that prevent, say, gas stations from dramatically increasing their prices immediately before or after a natural disaster. The same goes for coordinated price fixing, such as all of the gas stations in an area deciding they will charge, say, $8/gallon for gas. This is why you shouldn’t be able to just “cash in”.Exactly. What if the tables are turned, on hard times and I need some extra cash while having access to high demand goods. Let me cash in.
Yes on essential stuff it make sense. Not a luxury item like a GPU. No one life or lively hood is not in jeopardy cause they can't get the hottest new cpu/gpu/shoe.Profiteering / price gouging is not a desired behavior even in free markets - see laws that prevent, say, gas stations from dramatically increasing their prices immediately before or after a natural disaster. The same goes for coordinated price fixing, such as all of the gas stations in an area deciding they will charge, say, $8/gallon for gas. This is why you shouldn’t be able to just “cash in”.
Bot nets buying all available inventory of a good are demonstrating that they can manipulate markets, artificially increasing scarcity to increase price. With a little capital and coordination behind the bots, there is very little reason that this couldn’t be done indefinitely and prices held / fixed at whatever value the bot runners wanted. There is, after all, a maximum amount of foundry space that can be dedicated to video cards.
Why would this ever be desirable, especially when expanding beyond luxury goods like video cards and into things like medicine?
Actually, "profiteering/price gouging" is exactly what is called for during shortages. That's the free market balancing demand and supply.Profiteering / price gouging is not a desired behavior even in free markets - see laws that prevent, say, gas stations from dramatically increasing their prices immediately before or after a natural disaster. The same goes for coordinated price fixing, such as all of the gas stations in an area deciding they will charge, say, $8/gallon for gas. This is why you shouldn’t be able to just “cash in”.
Bot nets buying all available inventory of a good are demonstrating that they can manipulate markets, artificially increasing scarcity to increase price. With a little capital and coordination behind the bots, there is very little reason that this couldn’t be done indefinitely and prices held / fixed at whatever value the bot runners wanted. There is, after all, a maximum amount of foundry space that can be dedicated to video cards.
Why would this ever be desirable, especially when expanding beyond luxury goods like video cards and into things like medicine?
So you would be OK with the Corleones running bot net la and permanently price controlling and scalping electronics, cars, etc, as long as it isn’t medicine?Yes on essential stuff it make sense. Not a luxury item like a GPU. No one life or lively hood is not in jeopardy cause they can't get the hottest new cpu/gpu/shoe.
You make the faulty assumption that the prices can’t be controlled forever. Additionally, Your end result is also functionally the same as communism. Empty shelves, but instead of them being empty due to poor centralized planning, they are empty because a minority bought all the supply and the market couldn’t respond to make more.Actually, "profiteering/price gouging" is exactly what is called for during shortages. That's the free market balancing demand and supply.
Fleeing a hurricane? Need gas? Well, at $20 a gallon, are you going to buy more than you need? No. You're not. At excessively high prices, the demand will plummet.
Now, you can argue that "I need the gas to survive." Okay...sell something less valuable than your life. Ahh...you WANT the gas, not NEED the gas. See the difference?
In our case, I -want- some new video cards. I don't -need- them. Look at my sig: see how old/underpowered my GPUs are? Well, bots be damned: I'm not paying exorbitant prices for a commodity that I don't -need-. In the stats above, the 6800XT went from 200%, to 180% to 145% of the MSRP. I'll keep waiting.
The only role that government has in a free market is to ensure quality products (not what LEVEL of quality, just a "truth in advertising" function), and that there is no monopoly. (Monopolies do not allow a supply/demand market to operate.)
I get that you don't -like- the prices and lack of availability. Well...the trite answer of "go make your own fab facility and create your own GPU" is not valid. But, did you not notice that AMD has upped their game vs. Nvidia? Did you not notice the news about Intel getting into the GPU business? The market may not respond as rapidly as you'd -like-, but it is responding.
Now, if bots are -colluding- to artificially restrict the supply, then that would be a role for government.
I don't like it, but I do enjoy the fruits of this system. There is profit available to those who have the resources to create GPUs. That allows GPUs to be available to me and I don't have to create them myself. My option? I can create my own botnet, invest my money, and grab a bunch of 3090s/6900s and then sell them on ebay for a profit. Or, I can wait. I choose to wait.
No one was ripped off. They chose to purchase a luxury item at the price it was offered. They only got ripped off if they did not feel it was worth it, in which case they should not have purchased it. There are plenty of arguments that anti gouging/scalping laws make sense when we are talking about food, medicine, and things necessary to live, but it quickly turns into silly indignant screeching noises when you attempt to apply those arguments to luxury items.I can tell you, with 100% certainty, that there will never be a day where I run a bot network, buy up all of the inventory for a hot product at retail stores, and then use that monopoly to try to take advantage of people by ripping them off.
No, 100% wrong in a free market. In a free market, there will always be self correction. Will it benefit everyone? Probably not. Will it correct quickly? Well, sometimes yes, sometimes no, but if allowed to remain unencumbered by government and outside force of law, if certainly will correct. As others have stated here, simple fix. REFUSE to buy from scalpers or any entity involved in unfavorable commerce. People have no sense of personal responsibility anymore. They EXPECT others to step in on their behalf and "fix" the preceived wrongs. NOT the role of the United States Government, set forth in our Constitution. If you believe it should be, work to change it. It is your right. Use other countries as benchmarks if you wish, but keep in mind, NONE of them even have the right to free speech which we all are now engaging in. NO OTHER Country has as much FREEDOM as ours. PERIOD.Governments need to step in when markets fail and to ensure functionality and competition in the markets. Don’t like it? Better hope the retailers step in soon and effectively self correct, or else you’re going to get it.
Yes I would have imagined that, I was giving credence to your slippery slope argument, it start with something a larger portion agree like concert ticket and it end up not being able to sell a house before having living in it 3 year's or more than 10% the purchased price tag, I think the Canadian government looked at the luxury italian glasses price gouging anti-competitive market at some point and made it illegal to have 3 year's contract on smartphone .I also do not agree with laws prohibiting ticket scalping. Just because there ARE these types of laws, doesn't make them good. There are soooo many instances of Gov abuse when it comes to regulation and legislation. TBH, it makes me quite angry and how I deal with it is to attempt to give logical reasons and arguments against these blatant infringements.
This, if NVIDIA/AMD could sell them at those price, it could help them make more (and pay planes shipping), but that is not what is happening here, the scalper price gouging help in no way supply increase (it is not like people living 200 miles away bringing gaz to sell in a region with a shortage and doing so only because they can charge a lot).Actually, "profiteering/price gouging" is exactly what is called for during shortages. That's the free market balancing demand and supply.
I feel the same way about health care, I feel that (in the world / nation I want to live in) it should be a human right. /But the moment you start talking about single payer, the screech on both sides of the political isles goes full volume. //In a nation where people go bankrupt over one medical bill, where people die every day from lack of coverage, and meds are higher than giraffe coochie.No one was ripped off. They chose to purchase a luxury item at the price it was offered. They only got ripped off if they did not feel it was worth it, in which case they should not have purchased it. There are plenty of arguments that anti gouging/scalping laws make sense when we are talking about food, medicine, and things necessary to live, but it quickly turns into silly indignant screeching noises when you attempt to apply those arguments to luxury items.
I want a 6900xt, I will likely have to wait until February to get one at MSRP, I can wait. I will wait out of principal. I don't pay over MSRP, not ever. It is after all, the easiest way to get rid of scalpers. Do not buy from them. It's really hilarious what happens when everyone says screw you, not buying off of Ebay/Facebook market place/etc. over MSRP. The scalpers end up selling at MSRP or even below to get their money back b4 supply starts reaching equilibrium with demand.
But, since way too many are willing to buy at the higher price, we get scalpers.
If I was AMD/NV, and it was not illegal. I would get together, increase our MSRP by $20-50 over what we actually intend, build a reasonable stockpile of goods that approaches close to actual expected demand, then release just 10-15% of it into the market. Let the scalpers buy it all up, then release the other 90% a week or two later and reduce MSRP by $20-50 to ensure the scalpers all lost money. Too bad that is actually illegal.
Rights.I feel the same way about health care, I feel that (in the world / nation I want to live in) it should be a human right. /But the moment you start talking about single payer, the screech on both sides of the political isles goes full volume. //In a nation where people go bankrupt over one medical bill, where people die every day from lack of coverage, and meds are higher than giraffe coochie.