AMD's best Big Navi GPU may only be a match for Nvidia Ampere's second tier

Based on my professional military watercooling experience and analysis, Lisa & co. find themselves in a situation where the impossible seems to now be expected of them: Be faster than Nvidia, and/or cheaper than Nvidia (preferably and). Because anything less won't be "disruptive" enough. And even then you'll still have slobs asking "yes but where are my three bundled games?"

As the entrenched leader, Leather Jacket Man has achieved huge mindshare and marketshare advantages that will be a pain in the ass for AMD to overcome. But fortunately Lisa seems to understand the long game, and won't simply throw her arms up and say "low margin, low volume niche segment - why do I even need this aggravation".

AMD has to be cheaper and faster because they don't have anything else. Nvidia has been coming to bat with some pretty cool software to enhance their hardware; NVencode, RTX Voice, and the new Broadcast and Omniverse software are value adds worth considering for many buyers. AMD has an encoder that was broken for years and once "fixed" is still leagues behind NVencode (as well as Intel's encoder). And they don't have much else to leverage their GPUs unless you count a prettier control panel or a handful of other features of dubious usefulness (Chill and Anti-lag for example (I would also include NV Reflex in here)). If you're not a fanboy and if all AMD can do is bring a similar price and performance envelope why seriously consider them over NV who keeps bundling in features?
 
Last edited:
AMD has to be cheaper and faster because they don't have anything else. Nvidia has been coming to bat with some pretty cool software to enhance their hardware; NVencode, RTX Voice, and the new Broadcast and Omniverse software are value adds worth considering for many buyers. AMD has an encoder that was broken for years and once "fixed" is still leagues behind NVencode (as well as Intel's encoder). And they don't have much else to leverage their GPUs unless you count a prettier control panel or a handful of other features of dubious usefulness (Chill and Anti-lag for example (I would also include NV Reflex in here)). If you're not a fanboy and if all AMD can do is bring a similar price and performance envelope why seriously consider them over NV who keeps bundling in features?

I could agree with most of everything you said. But let’s not pretend like nvidia didn’t promise the moon with dlss. Mostly empty promises so far.
 
I could agree with most of everything you said. But let’s not pretend like nvidia didn’t promise the moon with dlss. Mostly empty promises so far.

Yeah I left DLSS and Ray Tracing out because they're some tech that hasn't seen widespread adoption as yet. There's no denying that they both have real benefits IF taken advantage of though.

In regards to DLSS I think the speed of the rollout was definitely not to our (or NV's) liking. DLSS 1.0 was lackluster at best also. But with 2.0 it's practically an industry-changing technology. The rumor is that they're working on getting it to work on any game that supports TAA; if they can figure that out then it's suddenly a big big deal. If they can't then I think it will still continue to gain traction but in a very slightly faster trickle than what we've had since 1.0.
 
Makes sense you are stuck in the past. The new way to make a crap ton of money isnt selling someone a $60 dollar game its micro transactions.
That is irrelevant to this discussion. Again Mobile gaming is dominate at mobile games which are basically free games that offer micro transactions with gameplay that is essentially bejeweled but with different skins and themes. That doesn't mean you can take a AAA game like Diablo and bring it to mobile and expect great sales.
They were ahead of the curve thats why you dont seem a mobile game just charging the archaic $60 game model.
Give it time, they will eventually. Doesn't stop companies from charging $60 and trying to get monetization profits on PC and consoles. The only reason games are "free" on mobile is because nobody puts much value in mobile gaming. If they did I can assure you that the creators of bejewelled would rather have $60 than hope that some middle aged mom buys micro-transactions.
Sony already said why they were releasing on PC, because there are pc gamers that will never own one of their systems but would pay for one of their IP's that's collecting dust.
They can say what they want, but the truth is they want to make money. How much money Sony makes will determine how often we'll see their "exclusives" on PC.
It's funny how you try and take console's as a whole apart to try and support your view.
I said platform, not the entire console industry.
That's like me taking the different game stores(Steam windows and linux , EPIC,GOG) and making them different categories.
If you can buy an Xbox One and play Bloodborne and God of War then you'd be right. As it stands right now any game that's exclusive to Epic or Steam is also available to every PC that can download Epic and Steam's Stores. That also oddly enough includes Linux, because you can run Windows games and Steam on Linux. You can't play Mario Odyssey on PS4 or XB1, and you can't play Halo on PS4 and Switch. Each console is literally their own "Platform".

I get this information is shocking to you but the truth is the truth. PC gaming is BIG and scares the living crap out of Sony and Microsoft. Big Navi's performance is the only method we have to gauge the performance of the Xbox Series X and PS5. As the rumors stand right now AMD's Big Navi is 80 CU's while the Xbox Series X has 52 CU's and PS5 having 36 CU's. If Big Navi is RTX 2080 Ti or slightly better levels of performance then what does that mean for the Xbox Series X and PS5? Again we're assuming that Big Navi has the highest clock speeds with the fastest VRAM compared to consoles. The Xbox Series X is closer to a RTX 2070 in performance while the PS5 is probably closer to a RTX 2060 Super, again assuming that rumors have some truth. Nvidia has once again punished the console industry by releasing the RTX 3070. The RTX 3060 will probably be faster than consoles. The RTX 3050 would still be faster, again if what I'm assuming is true. Keep in mind those consoles aren't cheap either, which is part of the reason Microsoft and Sony hesitate to release pricing. After the release of the RTX 3000's series, Microsoft and Sony are really hesitant to release any pricing.
 
That is irrelevant to this discussion. Again Mobile gaming is dominate at mobile games which are basically free games that offer micro transactions with gameplay that is essentially bejeweled but with different skins and themes. That doesn't mean you can take a AAA game like Diablo and bring it to mobile and expect great sales.

Give it time, they will eventually. Doesn't stop companies from charging $60 and trying to get monetization profits on PC and consoles. The only reason games are "free" on mobile is because nobody puts much value in mobile gaming. If they did I can assure you that the creators of bejewelled would rather have $60 than hope that some middle aged mom buys micro-transactions.

They can say what they want, but the truth is they want to make money. How much money Sony makes will determine how often we'll see their "exclusives" on PC.

I said platform, not the entire console industry.

If you can buy an Xbox One and play Bloodborne and God of War then you'd be right. As it stands right now any game that's exclusive to Epic or Steam is also available to every PC that can download Epic and Steam's Stores. That also oddly enough includes Linux, because you can run Windows games and Steam on Linux. You can't play Mario Odyssey on PS4 or XB1, and you can't play Halo on PS4 and Switch. Each console is literally their own "Platform".

I get this information is shocking to you but the truth is the truth. PC gaming is BIG and scares the living crap out of Sony and Microsoft. Big Navi's performance is the only method we have to gauge the performance of the Xbox Series X and PS5. As the rumors stand right now AMD's Big Navi is 80 CU's while the Xbox Series X has 52 CU's and PS5 having 36 CU's. If Big Navi is RTX 2080 Ti or slightly better levels of performance then what does that mean for the Xbox Series X and PS5? Again we're assuming that Big Navi has the highest clock speeds with the fastest VRAM compared to consoles. The Xbox Series X is closer to a RTX 2070 in performance while the PS5 is probably closer to a RTX 2060 Super, again assuming that rumors have some truth. Nvidia has once again punished the console industry by releasing the RTX 3070. The RTX 3060 will probably be faster than consoles. The RTX 3050 would still be faster, again if what I'm assuming is true. Keep in mind those consoles aren't cheap either, which is part of the reason Microsoft and Sony hesitate to release pricing. After the release of the RTX 3000's series, Microsoft and Sony are really hesitant to release any pricing.
blah blah blah PCMAster race, I'm not reading that crap because you continue to not have a valid point. Number don't lie but apparently you do.
 
What could they have screwed up so badly on such a "mature" process.
From what I've read the node maybe isn't the best suited for big dies and it has power problems. I haven't heard exactly what the nature of the power problems are, but I don't think it's related to inefficiency. Nvidia doesn't care about power consumption (obvs). I think it's what's behind the yields.

I also don't think Nvidia can really get in with TSMC. AMD and TSMC are best buds now. Maybe if Nvidia wants to produce on a "mature" TSMC process.

Ultimately I think this is a good thing: AMD isn't at all likely to knock out Nvidia completely in this round, although when EUV comes around Nvidia and Samsung better have a solid plan. If they do, and I think they will, then we won't have AMD and TSMC, joined at the hip, commanding the whole market from top to bottom.
 
I also don't think Nvidia can really get in with TSMC. AMD and TSMC are best buds now. Maybe if Nvidia wants to produce on a "mature" TSMC process.

What makes you think Nvidia and TSMC are no longer best buds?
 
What makes you think Nvidia and TSMC are no longer best buds?
I'm pretty sure AMD could commission TSMC to carve a silicon ingot into a giant dildo laser-engraved with the Nvidia logo and the quote "Cock tastes yummy" and have it delivered to them at CES on a velvet palanquin carried by Ghanaian pallbearers during their keynote address.

AMD and TSMC are pretty tight nowadays.
 
Let's not forget that both the console companies know what it is like to do business with Jensen. He is despised by Sony and Microsoft.
I don't get why he willing to work with Nintendo. Nintendo probably worse to deal with then the other two. I guess maybe Nintendo didn't ask for much was a easy way to dump all those crappy SoC they had.
 
I'm pretty sure AMD could commission TSMC to carve a silicon ingot into a giant dildo laser-engraved with the Nvidia logo and the quote "Cock tastes yummy" and have it delivered to them at CES on a velvet palanquin carried by Ghanaian pallbearers during their keynote address.

AMD and TSMC are pretty tight nowadays.

What are you basing this on?
 
Company renowned for being so difficult to work with that both microsoft and apple has/had them on their shit list, responds with "Uh, like, no way. We dumped them"

Yep, they are difficult to work with because they won't budge on their margins.
 
From what I've read the node maybe isn't the best suited for big dies and it has power problems. I haven't heard exactly what the nature of the power problems are, but I don't think it's related to inefficiency. Nvidia doesn't care about power consumption (obvs). I think it's what's behind the yields.

I also don't think Nvidia can really get in with TSMC. AMD and TSMC are best buds now. Maybe if Nvidia wants to produce on a "mature" TSMC process.

Ultimately I think this is a good thing: AMD isn't at all likely to knock out Nvidia completely in this round, although when EUV comes around Nvidia and Samsung better have a solid plan. If they do, and I think they will, then we won't have AMD and TSMC, joined at the hip, commanding the whole market from top to bottom.

Nvidia is fine with TSMC. They already ordered many 5nm wafers from them. They are also building their professional/AI chips with TSMC on 7nm. Nvidia knows what they are doing.
 
Nvidia knows what they are doing.
And I think they'll be doing a lot more with Samsung. Especially if Samsung is really producing wafers for Nvidia at cost or a loss, if those rumors are true. They're still buying from TSMC because they want to recoup their R&D costs for sure. How much more money they'll spend developing TSMC designs when AMD (and Apple) get priority as things progress remains to be seen.
 
Yep, they are difficult to work with because they won't budge on their margins.

As if Microsoft and Sony aren't known for being notoriously difficult to work with. AMD is in the consoles because they also have an x86 CPU business and will roll over; not because they have better tech or altruistic motives. From what I remember NV was ousted from the consoles because MS/Sony wanted full access to the designs so that they could more quickly lower what they pay for the hardware whereas NV didn't want to give up that control.
 
As if Microsoft and Sony aren't known for being notoriously difficult to work with. AMD is in the consoles because they'll roll over; not because they have better tech or altruistic motives. From what I remember NV was ousted from the consoles because MS/Sony wanted full access to the designs so that they could more quickly lower what they pay for the hardware whereas NV didn't want to give up that control.
Sony and MS being difficult to work with only benefits us the consumer. Imagine how much the PS5 and Xbox would be of they went with Nvidia. That or less powerful like the switch.
 
Sony and MS being difficult to work with only benefits us the consumer. Imagine how much the PS5 and Xbox would be of they went with Nvidia. That or less powerful like the switch.

I don't think that's valid; the consoles would always be priced at what consumers are willing to pay. Sure you could argue they might be a bit less powerful but that would only hasten the need for tech like DLSS which could have made an appearance in the XboneX or NVencode for better console streaming. If we're going to play the "what if" game then imagine how prevalent cutting edge GPU tech would be in PC games and console ports if Nvidia was still in the consoles instead of us being in a perpetual state of "wait for AMD tech to catch up".
 
Last edited:
TSMC's current wafer allocation to AMD, proposed/planned future allocations, and partnership on 5nm and I suspect other future nodes as well.

I'm not sure how that in any way implies anything about the TSMC & Nvidia relationship. Do you have insight into Nvidia's future allocations or work on 5nm?
 
Do you have insight into Nvidia's future allocations or work on 5nm?
I don't understand what you want me to tell you. Nothing I've said is particularly speculative or controversial. Samsung has capacity and TSMC is booked solid.

Not that I expect -- as indicated -- Nvidia to stop using what they already have arranged with TSMC, just that I expect them to push for a return on their investment with Samsung.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rizen
like this
just that I expect them to push for a return on their investment with Samsung.
They might be working with Samsung to improve Samsung's process. Seems reasonable for Samsung to want to return to being competitive with TSMC on a technological level, and Nvidia may get more attention focused on optimizing the node for their parts in return, in my opinion.
 
So rumors and leaks have it now that AMD is working to lower its launch prices and that NVidia came in under where they were expecting.

https://www.tweaktown.com/news/7496...md-big-navi-with-16gb-price-to-549/index.html

"They [AMD] want to release the 16GB at $599 and the 8GB at $499 but after the Ampere announcement I'm expecting $549 for the 16GB and $499 for the 8GB. We're receiving the ASIC (GPU+MEM) this month [September]" - AMD partner

This doesn’t make much sense and it a little confusing. those might be the price is model below the top model I think.

unless the card is no where near 3080 I guess 549.99 makes sense but 599.99 is still cheaper then 3080.

499.99 and 549.99 seems like the same card with only memory difference. If it’s higher sku I highly doubt amd charges only 50 more with double the memory. That makes me think those two cards might not be the top sku.
 
This doesn’t make much sense and it a little confusing. those might be the price is model below the top model I think.

unless the card is no where near 3080 I guess 549.99 makes sense but 599.99 is still cheaper then 3080.

499.99 and 549.99 seems like the same card with only memory difference. If it’s higher sku I highly doubt amd charges only 50 more with double the memory. That makes me think those two cards might not be the top sku.
Well the same site earlier put up an article about why the top tier AMD card will beat a 2080TI but loose to the 3080 so the pricing probably reflects that if AMD is feeling they have to lower their 16GB models price even more after the announcement we can probably expect it to just top out over a 2070. But even if that is the case at that price with that amount of memory that is a good card. Now I really want the tear-downs and benchmarks and all the good stuff.
 
Well the same site earlier put up an article about why the top tier AMD card will beat a 2080TI but loose to the 3080 so the pricing probably reflects that if AMD is feeling they have to lower their 16GB models price even more after the announcement we can probably expect it to just top out over a 2070. But even if that is the case at that price with that amount of memory that is a good card. Now I really want the tear-downs and benchmarks and all the good stuff.

That’s what I meant. Meaning even if it’s in between 3080 and 3070. 599.99 really wouldn’t be bad price with 16gb. They should wait and see lol.
 
Lets see.... 5700 xt is 40 CU units, and 30%-35% slower then 2080 ti.
Big Navi is rocking 80 CU units. Assuming zero architectural differences AMD is already in the right ball park. Of course we know the architecture is very different... and includes tracing bits ect.

People still thinking NV has won this one before AMD has even taken a shot are dreaming. NV obviously swung for the fences out of fear. If AMD comes up short cool guess consumers still win. I am not expecting they will be swinging and missing this round. Lisa has taken an interest in the GPU business.
 
OK, as seems AMD will have performance around 3080 that will consumes less power. If you want get is as rumor because I can't put any link to it.
Now I will just wonder what would be the price.
 
Igor Wallossek, he runs a German tech site. I believe he is the first to report Ampere will have the 12 pin design and that the 3090 will be a 350W GPU. Like I said, take it with a grain of salt.
 
Igor Wallossek, he runs a German tech site. I believe he is the first to report Ampere will have the 12 pin design and that the 3090 will be a 350W GPU. Like I said, take it with a grain of salt.

Isn't he the one that said Zen 3 would be 5nm?
 


He has really good history on AMD leaks. I absolutely trust him in amd stuff. He got RDNA 1 spot on and zen and Radeon VII. He leaked the renders before announcement.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Axman
like this
Interesting rumor from IgorsLAB, so take it with a grain of salt. According to the info Igor gotten, a 275W Big Navi sits between 3070 and 3080 in performance, a 300+W Big Navi is somewhere around a 3080 performance. AIB partners product will not launch at the same time as Big Navi.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/imk1jr/igorslab_big_navi_between_3070_and_3080_with_275w/
Check my video above. I think redgamingtech is more trust worthy with amd stuff. He has been spot on with amd releases. So nothing is final yet on 6800 and 6900. But he did say 6700 will be competing with 3070. But amd cards will be more power efficient. So ball is in their court.
 
Something good might come of 2020 yet.... But has the cost been worth it.
 
I hope AMD has a “works with every game” solution similar to DLSS. Even if it’s not as good as DLSS but close enough, that would be fine by me. But if DLSS comes to Warzone, then NVIDIA almost assuredly has my business again and I’ll grab the 3080 Ti/3090 12 GB or whatever they release in the future.
 
Back
Top