Navi discussion thread

[ChadD]

You will have to wait forever....suddenly it's not raytracing anymore....now you add additional "requirements"....I will sig you statement now...I will look really funny in 10 years.

Lag...lag...laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaag.
Unless you fix it...you will have +150 ms lag.
I'm waiting?

LOL

Glad you put that in your sig. Keep it there awhile. It will no doubt age very well.

I didn't change any requirements. 60fps is the min people are looking for... and 4k 60fps is what google is offering, as long as your connection is fast enough. So if your 2080ti can't do 4k 60fps with tracing on (and it can't) its less then.

150 ms lag. If that is the case where you are upgrade your ISP.

I have gigabit fiber... and I have seen NVs streaming service operating on the same speed connection at a relatives place. Looked great, didn't notice any major lag. And those games where running at ultra settings. Looked great. I also suspect googles new service is superior.

Sure there will be pains when they launch... just like there was with their test last year. In areas with the best pipe its great... in areas with less then service, ya it wasn't perfect.

Still the masses are going to be able to play their AAA PC titles on their phones at 720p. Streaming is likely to get pretty popular.

 

[Imhotep]

I cant wait to play ray traced candy crush on my new game streaming service...

 

[IdiotInCharge]

Biggest issue with streaming isn't the overall lag, I'm okay with that- it's the ~150ms of lag to respond to user inputs. This is like the worst TV lag imaginable; mouse / controller pushing one way with the viewport going the other kind of stuff.

I've said before that there's likely a middle ground of 'hybrid streaming' where significant amounts of rendering can be done in the cloud while some computation is still done on a local 'dumb terminal' to keep input lag down.


And that's neither here nor there. All GPU vendors (not just AMD / Nvidia / Intel) will have to evolve to deal with various streaming methods.

 

[ChadD]

Biggest issue with streaming isn't the overall lag, I'm okay with that- it's the ~150ms of lag to respond to user inputs. This is like the worst TV lag imaginable; mouse / controller pushing one way with the viewport going the other kind of stuff.

I've said before that there's likely a middle ground of 'hybrid streaming' where significant amounts of rendering can be done in the cloud while some computation is still done on a local 'dumb terminal' to keep input lag down.


And that's neither here nor there. All GPU vendors (not just AMD / Nvidia / Intel) will have to evolve to deal with various streaming methods.

You could well be right. Just remember some of the most popular games around are internet multiplayer games. People are sort of used to dealing with lag. No one that has been playing warcraft for 10 years is going to be all that upset by the experience. Of course they will probably notice they are playing on ultra (and in some cases ultra+) graphics settings. The masses are quite used to playing games on medium. Streaming is going to be a major IQ upgrade for many users. Throw in the instant on... no need to download 100gb games. I think it will be surprising how fast it become popular at least in the major cities with good pipe and where Google is throwing up satellite servers.

It should be interesting anyway. I think a few of the big game publishers want this bad enough to keep pushing it even if Google stumbles a bit.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

People are sort of used to dealing with lag.

If they can all but eliminate the input lag, then I get it. I'm not opposed to the idea of game streaming at all; I quite like the idea of having great graphics with no local hardware investment.

There are just so many games that are dependent on reaction times, and doing remote rendering is going to be a problem that may prove insurmountable for some.

 

[ChadD]

If they can all but eliminate the input lag, then I get it. I'm not opposed to the idea of game streaming at all; I quite like the idea of having great graphics with no local hardware investment.

There are just so many games that are dependent on reaction times, and doing remote rendering is going to be a problem that may prove insurmountable for some.

I view it much like audio and cinephiles complaining about Netflix. I'm not saying local hardware will ever be gone completely. Just that it won't be possible to buy super high end consumer GPUs to power games in the same way the cloud will be. For esport type stuff that will be fine... as it is everyone runs those at lower settings for every little advantage.

There will always be a market for local hardware... I just don't see the old high GPU wars of constant one up releases being sustainable. AMD has already basically tapped out. If NV wants to sell the absolute fastest SOC based GPU/Tensor chip and claim the $1200 GPU market AMD will let them. Intel is going to do the same I have no doubt. They will compete in the $250-700 ranges and leave NV with the sole super high end card as well. AMD has cloud gaming to go after... and I suspect Intel will find a dance partner as well.

Anyway we have made these points over and over. As long as streaming is good enough for the masses to sell millions of copies. The small core of dedicated PC master types that right now own 2080ti cards complaining won't matter. If right now your a gamer on a 2070/Vega 56 and down. Streaming is all upside as long as you have decent pipe. No more GPU upgrade rat race... no more hunting for the fastest SSDs to house your game collection. Granted you won't have physical copies... its just the evolution of the steam library.

 

[serpretetsky]

You could well be right. Just remember some of the most popular games around are internet multiplayer games. People are sort of used to dealing with lag. No one that has been playing warcraft for 10 years is going to be all that upset by the experience.

Yeah, but if I play wacraft with 150ms of internet lag I simply endure it. If i have to play warcraft with 150ms of input lag I quit the game right there and then.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

No more GPU upgrade rat race...

Without disagreeing wholesale, let me bring up two adjecent points:

• VR is going to need GPU grunt, and it's going to need extremely low latency GPU grunt
• In the same day, I'll play a game that my 1080Ti is not entirely adequate for at 1440p120, and another that the IGP on my ultrabook is adequate for the 1080p60 panel it feeds

You also have mobile games and Nintendo's Switch, and then you have the upcoming headline consoles from Sony and Microsoft.

We're seeing a 'stratification' in gaming, where the low end hasn't budged much, but the high end is moving as fast as the transistors can be improved. I think we'll keep going along this path, and with Intel getting serious about graphics (well, proving it), high end graphics will become more niche but I don't see it going away.

Anything happening in a datacenter can be sold to consumers too. So if multi-die / chiplet solutions are being employed for streaming, they can also be sold to consumers for local processing. Expensive, perhaps even boutique, but absolutely not impossible. It may be the mid-range that's 'not enough' and also 'too much' that suffers more.

 

[ChadD]

Without disagreeing wholesale, let me bring up two adjecent points:

• VR is going to need GPU grunt, and it's going to need extremely low latency GPU grunt
• In the same day, I'll play a game that my 1080Ti is not entirely adequate for at 1440p120, and another that the IGP on my ultrabook is adequate for the 1080p60 panel it feeds

You also have mobile games and Nintendo's Switch, and then you have the upcoming headline consoles from Sony and Microsoft.

We're seeing a 'stratification' in gaming, where the low end hasn't budged much, but the high end is moving as fast as the transistors can be improved. I think we'll keep going along this path, and with Intel getting serious about graphics (well, proving it), high end graphics will become more niche but I don't see it going away.

Anything happening in a datacenter can be sold to consumers too. So if multi-die / chiplet solutions are being employed for streaming, they can also be sold to consumers for local processing. Expensive, perhaps even boutique, but absolutely not impossible. It may be the mid-range that's 'not enough' and also 'too much' that suffers more.

I agree with you VR is going to suffer the most if Streaming really does take off with the masses. Its going to mean even fewer average users buying even higher end mid range cards that can drive local VR.

I think that is the way the market is going though... VR perhaps still ends up ok as long as the mid range cards continue to improve enough. You don't NEED a 2080 ti for decent VR. Not like you basically need a 2080ti to really enjoy ray tracing right now.

AMD does sell cards capable of very good VR... and so will Intel. I just don't see any of them chasing after that $1200+ top of the market spot all that hard anymore. AMD/ATI traded blows with NV for years for the crown... and I don't think anyone cares anymore. NV can keep it for all AMD and Intel care.

Sure those $1200 cards can be the same chips used in data centers. With companies like NV selling the gimped lower grade binned bits going into consumer cards. The thing is though AMD (and if rumors are true) Intel are not trying to make silicon that is super high end anymore. More they are designing silicon that can run at scale. In other words one AMD MI60 isn't any better then a Radeon VII.... BUT its designed to be able to share addressable memory (like their SSG cards do with their 1TB of SSD graphics memory). As I understand AMDs current state they can have a farm of say 20 MI60 cards (Radeon VII) pooling out of the same SSG storage space. So to a company like Google looking to stream 100s of GBs of textures to 100s of users at the same time. The fact that a NV has a slightly faster SOC part... with Tensor cores bolted on matters nothing to Google. They want servers that load balance and are designed to share better.... and as I have said before I have no doubt google plans to bolt their TensorFlow parts into the mix at some point if they haven't already.

Really I sort of hope I'm a bit wrong in a way... reading about mid range cards all the time isn't as exciting. lol I guess we'll know in the next year or so when Intel launches... and we'll see if AMD does release a faster version of Navi or some enhanced version with ray tracing hardware of some kind. The next year will be interesting... but perhaps not that exciting. I have a feeling even NV might be thinking the same way... their 7nm part may really disappoint people. They are getting the point where their SOC design of Tensor+GPU is starting to get really heavy in terms of transistor count.... I wouldn't be shocked if their ameree part is some type of chiplet design as well.

 

[Boil]

Look, all this speculation on the future of gaming & streaming services for the same is cool, but not really relevant to the topic, which is Navi GPUs for local usage...

Now, what I want to hear more of is Navi 20, aka 'Big Navi'; what will it be, when can I get it & how much will it cost...!?! ;^p

And does 'Big Navi' = 'Arcturus', or...?

 

[FrgMstr]

Read the OP. Ask yourself, "Is what I am about to post on topic?". If not, don't.

 

[euskalzabe]

This is a pretty interesting slide that Gamers Nexus just brought out in their latest video talk with David Kanter, emphasizing the changes over the past few years until Navi. I'm guessing this is one of the slides we'll see in the next few weeks as RDNA architecture deep dives are published in several of the usual websites like Anandtech, Arstechnica, etc.

Full video with lots of discussion here:



I honestly love listening to David explain things. He knows so much about this stuff, and explains it in a pretty easy to follow manner for those of us who know nothing about engineering. Every time he explains something, I learn so, so much. Worth a watch for sure.

 

[Boil]

 

[noko]

Which features? I would be interested to learn more about any specific advantage Vega or Navi has in cloud server deployments.

• Second-generation High-Bandwidth Memory (HBM2) to provide power savings in a compact footprint;
• Critical datacenter features such as Error Correcting Code (ECC)1 protection to help ensure data integrity;
• Fast, predictable performance with security features for cloud-based gaming, via the industry’s first hardware-based GPU virtualization solution built on industry standard SR-IOV (Single-Root I/O Virtualization) technology.
• The AMD graphics architecture supports a wide range of today’s gaming platforms – from PCs to major game consoles – enabling developers to optimize their games for a single GPU architecture and extend these benefits across multiple platforms which now include large-scale cloud gaming platforms.

As for Navi, we have not seen big Navi yet. I am not sure if AMD will have two versions of big Navi as in one for datacenters and one for PC's. I expect one big Navi and it will most likely be expensive unless AMD does some neat tricks such as using HBM2 cache hooked up to slower DDR 6 on a shorter bus.

Even if the quality is less, more lag etc. Streaming games would explode the number of gamers. The quality which actually is being aimed at 4K with more performance then the current top end consoles will only improve.

Now the elephant in the room - VR, VR pretty much mandates the lowest lag regardless in many cases the game type. That just a human physiological thing. So if VR continues to grow, hardware will need to meet that requirement. Now it would be kinda neat to be able to stream via high bandwidth phone to a VR/AR headset with virtually no boundaries or limitation on location. Gaming is hitting a evolutionary stage right now. Pay thousands of dollars frequently to increase the IQ up which for most maybe insignificant, maintain the system or systems and deal with Microsoft headaches or pay $10 a month and stream thousands of games. I see the lure that game streaming will have and I am sure the costs will go up after Google initial launch of Stadia and other platforms (which will help contain the costs).

Of course Nvidia is right now in Beta stage of streaming games with their ware houses full of GPU's. You can join the free beta and experience it yourself. Note a lot of twitch games.

• https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/products/geforce-now/

 

[ManofGod]

Not at all dead.... doing more business then ever. As google will be selling AAA titles on their phones. (data rates may apply lol)

High end PC gaming however... is already DEAD. NV is the only company trying to sell a super high end GPU. That isn't going to change either. AMD is more interesting in selling Radeon MI60. Intel is not going to be the GPU market saviours some people expect either. They are going to launch mid range cards.... AND MI60 competition.

NV is actually behind the curve design wise. They have one big piece of silicon with tensor cores on it ect for their AI ambitions. The future will look like AMDs RDNA and Intels Xe... modular designs. That can be sold for good value mid range cards.... or slaved and load shared on cloud / ai systems. Intel has already been talking about exactly that in PR for some super computer wins they have already picked up for Xe.

Non stream gaming is going nowhere. The fact is, AMD has been on the comeback for only just over 2 years and it will take a while longer for them, as far as I can see.

Google's streaming service appears to be DOA, at least in its current offering. No way I would buy a game on a service at full price or pay that much for the simple ability too play single player games.

Also, what does all this have to do with Navi? If I did not already own a Vega 56 with 64 bios, I would probably pick up an XT.

 

[noko]

I like his history relating to previous Arch change which Navi represents. The 7870 barely actually beat the 580 but over time it became faster than a 780 (Nvidia big die chip) two generations later!. Navi I see has that potential, now it is faster than a Vega 64 and it has way less compute units/shaders. Think about that, Navi is much more I think then people expected and I would say it almost caught Nvidia off guard.

 

[noko]

Non stream gaming is going nowhere. The fact is, AMD has been on the comeback for only just over 2 years and it will take a while longer for them, as far as I can see.

Google's streaming service appears to be DOA, at least in its current offering. No way I would buy a game on a service at full price or pay that much for the simple ability too play single player games.

Also, what does all this have to do with Navi? If I did not already own a Vega 56 with 64 bios, I would probably pick up an XT.

You may not but many more will is the point.

What does this have to do with Navi? - Everything actually. The design, the release of a mid level card and so on is very much relevant. Big Navi or Navi 20 (Navi 2 from AMD), will it be for just PC gaming ignoring what Google and others are doing or will it actually be designed for the huge gaming datacenters coming. The Navi design that will be in both Microsoft and Sony next consoles. The discussions is about Navi not just the 5700 and 5700 XT and has a very long ways to go as more information about the hardware changes are released and understood. A new thread dealing with just the 5700 and 5700 XT maybe should be started to talk about just those two cards if that is what you mean. To leave Navi out of the big picture when AMD is actually conquering many areas at once seems rather blind in my opinion. In short Navi may play a huge role in Google Stadia since AMD is working with Google on a custom design which obviously to me will not be Vega but could be wrong.

Now streaming games will most likely make Steam, Origen, Ubisoft, ill conceived Epic platforms shrink over time. Maybe valve will start making real games again in the end unless they just close down.

 

[noko]

Look, all this speculation on the future of gaming & streaming services for the same is cool, but not really relevant to the topic, which is Navi GPUs for local usage...

Now, what I want to hear more of is Navi 20, aka 'Big Navi'; what will it be, when can I get it & how much will it cost...!?! ;^p

And does 'Big Navi' = 'Arcturus', or...?

The thread is labelled Navi discussions followed by:

• "Since a lot of information about Navi is now available (not just rumors), it's now time to start a new thread."

No where does it say Navi GPUs for local usage . . .

Nor does it say stick to released Navi products -> So if some of us strayed to your perception what we ought to be talking about is because Navi is an arch that covers many products, solutions and areas and will be very broad. More focussed discussions for released products maybe in order but I took this thread on the discussions of AMD Navi and all what that will mean for now and the future with finding out the why and direction it will take us. This discussion or thread could span hundreds of pages of enlightened progression of thoughts .

 

[ChadD]

You may not but many more will is the point.

What does this have to do with Navi? - Everything actually. The design, the release of a mid level card and so on is very much relevant. Big Navi or Navi 20 (Navi 2 from AMD), will it be for just PC gaming ignoring what Google and others are doing or will it actually be designed for the huge gaming datacenters coming. The Navi design that will be in both Microsoft and Sony next consoles. The discussions is about Navi not just the 5700 and 5700 XT and has a very long ways to go as more information about the hardware changes are released and understood. A new thread dealing with just the 5700 and 5700 XT maybe should be started to talk about just those two cards if that is what you mean. To leave Navi out of the big picture when AMD is actually conquering many areas at once seems rather blind in my opinion. In short Navi may play a huge role in Google Stadia since AMD is working with Google on a custom design which obviously to me will not be Vega but could be wrong.

Now streaming games will most likely make Steam, Origen, Ubisoft, ill conceived Epic platforms shrink over time. Maybe valve will start making real games again in the end unless they just close down.

Exactly streaming is part of the discussion. As it seems obvious AMD is not designing GPUs for discreet cards. Yes we are getting small navi for mid range consumer cards today. The arch seems clearly designed however to scale for gaming servers. (as well as down for mobile)

Nvidia doesn't design its GPUs for just discreet card use anymore either. Its been an ongoing discussion that Nvidias cards are designed each generation with more AI stuff. Tensors ect. They seem to be trying to justify those bits for consumers by adding features that use tensor.... and calling their variable float point tensors RT cores ect.

AMD on the other hand with navi... Seems to have designed a chip that is going to be much better at doing things like pooling Memory pools (even using different memory types like high speed cache) They dabbled with that on GCN with SSG storage solutions for the pro market. It just seem looking at all the slides ect that navi was designed to pool and scale.

So streaming is part of the conversation. In terms of the 5700 its possible to say yes this is a mid range - upper mid range consumer part. AMD seems to have decided there isn't much point in going after performance crowns. They have bet on cloud gaming.

 

[ManofGod]

Exactly streaming is part of the discussion. As it seems obvious AMD is not designing GPUs for discreet cards. Yes we are getting small navi for mid range consumer cards today. The arch seems clearly designed however to scale for gaming servers. (as well as down for mobile)

Nvidia doesn't design its GPUs for just discreet card use anymore either. Its been an ongoing discussion that Nvidias cards are designed each generation with more AI stuff. Tensors ect. They seem to be trying to justify those bits for consumers by adding features that use tensor.... and calling their variable float point tensors RT cores ect.

AMD on the other hand with navi... Seems to have designed a chip that is going to be much better at doing things like pooling Memory pools (even using different memory types like high speed cache) They dabbled with that on GCN with SSG storage solutions for the pro market. It just seem looking at all the slides ect that navi was designed to pool and scale.

So streaming is part of the conversation. In terms of the 5700 its possible to say yes this is a mid range - upper mid range consumer part. AMD seems to have decided there isn't much point in going after performance crowns. They have bet on cloud gaming.

AMD is not going after the performance crown because, at this time, they can't. Folks clearly or conveniently forget until 2 or so years ago, AMD was on the edge of death.

Fact is, it is not either or but, whatever makes them money. Streaming will eventually be an option but let's get real, even 4k UHD Blu ray movies cannot be effectively streamed yet, let alone live content.

 

[Auer]

ChadD If AMD has no Halo products in the GPU market it's because they cant figure out how to do it.

Look at their CPU's and tell me how they think "There's no point in going after performance crowns".

 

[ManofGod]

ChadD If AMD has no Halo products in the GPU market it's because they cant figure out how to do it.

Look at their CPU's and tell me how they think "There's no point in going after performance crowns".

More like cannot afford too, yet.

 

[ChadD]

ChadD If AMD has no Halo products in the GPU market it's because they cant figure out how to do it.

Look at their CPU's and tell me how they think "There's no point in going after performance crowns".

Those are not even close to the same market. Talking about $500 12 core general compute CPUs... and comparing that to the $1200 GPU market is not exactly equivalent.

Let the difference in price sink in. AMDs Ryzen 3950 is going to sell for almost half as much scratch as Nvidias highest end consumer GPU.

AMD has zero need to go after that market. We all know 95%+ of the market is 2070 class hardware and down. Why play the one up game trying to win over less then 5% of consumer GPU market. Frankly it also weakens their cloud play. AMD would much rather sell hardware for googles gaming servers then win a moral good fight "we have the fastest card on earth".

Navi is designed to scale. Could they release a card to decimate the 2080ti. Yes they could. I have a feeling in a few months (around the actual stadia launch) details will drop on AMDs next MI entry. (MI-80 or 90 whatever they want to call it) The Navi server cards... my guess is (and it is a guess) they will be 15-20% more powerful then the 5700, and AMD won't be selling a version of it to consumers. Because there is zero point in selling $1200 consumer grade GPUs that eat into your big server business. It is possible though that those end up in some form of Radeon Pro workstation card.

Navi is going to be in consoles phones tablets laptops PCs AI servers Game servers... and I wouldn't rule out some super computer wins down the road paired with Epyc. AMD is firing on ALL fronts with their new arch.

Its an exciting arch... wave 32 compute has the potential to do for regular shader compute what NV is doing for tensor with the lower resolution FP settings, it really is huge and it will be awhile until we see software really exploit that. Franky I can see that actually being the "Ray tracing" hardware AMD was talking about for PS5. The ray tracing APIs can use shaders. The main issue is shaders have a wide path and will take multiple clocks to do the math. Wave32 should allow the driver to split that math and almost double the speed for computing low FP required math like ray calculation. IMO Navi is capable of hardware ray tracing... it just needs to be properly exposed. They will be using wave 32 shader compute vs NVs lowered FP tensor solution. (could be wrong but it makes sense to me)

 

[Pieter3dnow]

A bleak look at what Navi has to offer from a technical standpoint and how far AMD are on the whole performance per watt slider with Navi:

 

[Auer]

A bleak look at what Navi has to offer from a technical standpoint and how far AMD are on the whole performance per watt slider with Navi:

Listening to this made me get drunk, eat some Haggis and charge a castle full of Englishmen.

 

[Pieter3dnow]

Listening to this made me get drunk, eat some Haggis and charge a castle full of Englishmen.

I did not know that AdoredTV used subliminal messaging ...

 

[Dayaks]

A bleak look at what Navi has to offer from a technical standpoint and how far AMD are on the whole performance per watt slider with Navi:

225W on a blower is a no go from me. That and the cost. IMO blowers need to be on cards around 150W and less. Or triple slot....

I feel like AMD makes the same mistake over and over. I thought they learned from the 290x given the 390x launched with dual fans. Guess not!

 

[Pieter3dnow]

225W on a blower is a no go from me. That and the cost. IMO blowers need to be on cards around 150W and less. Or triple slot....

I feel like AMD makes the same mistake over and over. I thought they learned from the 290x given the 390x launched with dual fans. Guess not!

The problem is also the messaging , it starts out with "we love gamers" then it ends up with a blower card at a price which is not really showing the love for gamers just making use of the gamers that been paying for over priced hardware and use that as a reference for "we love gamers".

 

[Maddness]

The problem is also the messaging , it starts out with "we love gamers" then it ends up with a blower card at a price which is not really showing the love for gamers just making use of the gamers that been paying for over priced hardware and use that as a reference for "we love gamers".

Yeah, I just don't get it. AMD is going to absolutely kill it in the CPU market over the next few years, but they just don't seem to be able to translate that to the GPU market.

 

[Snowdog]

Yeah, I just don't get it. AMD is going to absolutely kill it in the CPU market over the next few years, but they just don't seem to be able to translate that to the GPU market.

NVidia is a much tougher competitor than Intel.

 

[TheRookie]

A bleak look at what Navi has to offer from a technical standpoint and how far AMD are on the whole performance per watt slider with Navi:

If anyone haven't watched the video, don't bother.

It's just a rambling of an old geezer.

 

[noko]

The problem is also the messaging , it starts out with "we love gamers" then it ends up with a blower card at a price which is not really showing the love for gamers just making use of the gamers that been paying for over priced hardware and use that as a reference for "we love gamers".

This is new Arch, in a somewhat big way. With the 7970 that turned into some very major performance increases as DX evolved and programmers developed for it (GCN) to a point where it outperforms the 780 years later, two generations later Arch from Nvidia. Too early to tell if that kind of history will repeat with Navi and he started out with the 7970 but left off that progression as what Navi could indeed do by it's new arch. Since he left out the unique new features and significance I give that video a fail. No game is yet program to use the wave 32 (kinda like hyperthreading here maybe) aspect for the compute blocks meaning many more operations can happen (not being used now) per clock. The good news they will absolutely be programmed for and used in the near future due to Navi being in the consoles. Performance/watt is only being compared to today games and not the games of the future. Of course we have no data yet nor has AMD provided anything I know of what significance that will have.

Now I do agree the power is on the high side, blower cooler yet again??? and the pricing is not necessarily bad being that it does compete with the 2070 in non RTX settings. Is this like the 7970 that was launched with a clock speed of 925mhz yet I was able to go to 1310mhz, gamed at 1290mhz flawlessly, a whopping %40 increase in clock speed!!! The best OCing video card I've ever owned and as the years went on it just got faster and faster. That was the best video card topping out the Radeon 9700 Pro as number 2 which I pushed from 325mhz to 420mhz in an A/C cooled case. So without even a Navi Video card in hand he made some serious flawed arguments or maybe jumped to conclusions which may or may not be accurate in the end.

Sad to say but most likely which would be for users like me and others is that the Crypto mining performance with Wave 32 ability should be exceedingly good or I would think so. Not necessarily getting more flops but effectively using those flops may push the mining performance over a Vega II. This would have to be programmed for and the higher price may reflect some consideration in not having the card completely sold out all the time due to mining which just pisses off everyone to no end and makes AMD no more money in the end. AMD as a company has to charge what they can get and I don't think the pricing is unreasonable and would be stupid to repeat Polaris pricing. Plus AMD can lower the pricing over time as needed.

As for top end Navi gaming card - I expect it to happen for the same reasons we have big Turing 2080Ti, Vega II , Titan V etc. - Dies made for the professional market, Data Centers etc. will not all be perfect and using those not so perfect dies and having too many skews in that area does not work. To not use them and throw them away would be throwing away a lot of money. Hence big Navi for gamers and since these are designed with games (streaming) in mind - they will game exceedingly well is my take. Plus Lisa Sue is very clear that AMD will push the high end on everything they do. I do not see AMD conceding the high end in anything. Navi 2 should correct some of the power issues, probably use HBM2 and kick some major ass with some games using wave 32 by that time. I am sure big Navi was made and it did not meet expectations or will be used initially in Stadia, just don't know.

With AMD and Samsung licensing deal, will Navi also end up with Samsung as a foundry as well? I think so.

 

[noko]

If anyone haven't watched the video, don't bother.

It's just a rambling of an old geezer.

What is wrong with old geezers???

 

[Pieter3dnow]

This is new Arch, in a somewhat big way. With the 7970 that turned into some very major performance increases as DX evolved and programmers developed for it (GCN) to a point where it outperforms the 780 years later, two generations later Arch from Nvidia. Too early to tell if that kind of history will repeat with Navi and he started out with the 7970 but left off that progression as what Navi could indeed do by it's new arch. Since he left out the unique new features and significance I give that video a fail. No game is yet program to use the wave 32 (kinda like hyperthreading here maybe) aspect for the compute blocks meaning many more operations can happen (not being used now) per clock. The good news they will absolutely be programmed for and used in the near future due to Navi being in the consoles. Performance/watt is only being compared to today games and not the games of the future. Of course we have no data yet nor has AMD provided anything I know of what significance that will have.

Now I do agree the power is on the high side, blower cooler yet again??? and the pricing is not necessarily bad being that it does compete with the 2070 in non RTX settings. Is this like the 7970 that was launched with a clock speed of 925mhz yet I was able to go to 1310mhz, gamed at 1290mhz flawlessly, a whopping %40 increase in clock speed!!! The best OCing video card I've ever owned and as the years went on it just got faster and faster. That was the best video card topping out the Radeon 9700 Pro as number 2 which I pushed from 325mhz to 420mhz in an A/C cooled case. So without even a Navi Video card in hand he made some serious flawed arguments or maybe jumped to conclusions which may or may not be accurate in the end.

Sad to say but most likely which would be for users like me and others is that the Crypto mining performance with Wave 32 ability should be exceedingly good or I would think so. Not necessarily getting more flops but effectively using those flops may push the mining performance over a Vega II. This would have to be programmed for and the higher price may reflect some consideration in not having the card completely sold out all the time due to mining which just pisses off everyone to no end and makes AMD no more money in the end. AMD as a company has to charge what they can get and I don't think the pricing is unreasonable and would be stupid to repeat Polaris pricing. Plus AMD can lower the pricing over time as needed.

As for top end Navi gaming card - I expect it to happen for the same reasons we have big Turing 2080Ti, Vega II , Titan V etc. - Dies made for the professional market, Data Centers etc. will not all be perfect and using those not so perfect dies and having too many skews in that area does not work. To not use them and throw them away would be throwing away a lot of money. Hence big Navi for gamers and since these are designed with games (streaming) in mind - they will game exceedingly well is my take. Plus Lisa Sue is very clear that AMD will push the high end on everything they do. I do not see AMD conceding the high end in anything. Navi 2 should correct some of the power issues, probably use HBM2 and kick some major ass with some games using wave 32 by that time. I am sure big Navi was made and it did not meet expectations or will be used initially in Stadia, just don't know.

With AMD and Samsung licensing deal, will Navi also end up with Samsung as a foundry as well? I think so.

Yeah I saw some information regarding what Navi does differently as opposed to previous cards. Sadly AMD has informed some of the press that there locking down the bios for Navi and won't allow registry mods either.

Navi is a stop gap for what is coming after Navi 20 more then anything else they have the same power performance problems even if it might work out for Navi 20 (300 Watt 60 CU)that is about it. Unless they find out why it still requires that amount of power it still won't go anywhere (replacement for Polaris that is it).

Then were talking 2021

 

[IdiotInCharge]

Then were talking 2021

Wait for After-Navi?

I was seriously hoping for better from AMD this round. Not everything needs a 2080Ti .

 

[Dayaks]

Yeah I saw some information regarding what Navi does differently as opposed to previous cards. Sadly AMD has informed some of the press that there locking down the bios for Navi and won't allow registry mods either.

Navi is a stop gap for what is coming after Navi 20 more then anything else they have the same power performance problems even if it might work out for Navi 20 (300 Watt 60 CU)that is about it. Unless they find out why it still requires that amount of power it still won't go anywhere (replacement for Polaris that is it).

Then were talking 2021

Only problem is I feel like we’ve been getting stop gaps for a few generations.

Hopefully with Ryzen doing well they can do a proper redesign. If they release something decent with 2021 I am sure I’ll buy a few. Relatives are still on GTX 970s but haven’t heard any complaints so I will wait!

 

[Pieter3dnow]

Only problem is I feel like we’ve been getting stop gaps for a few generations.

Hopefully with Ryzen doing well they can do a proper redesign. If they release something decent with 2021 I am sure I’ll buy a few. Relatives are still on GTX 970s but haven’t heard any complaints so I will wait!

No the expectations are too high and that bullshit has been going on for far too long as well. Remember that suddenly Polaris could compete with 1080 some even said 1080TI it is all based on nothing. Those rumours were in the middle of where Kyle posted his piece on Polaris that it was slow and could not perform (certainly not beyond what it ended up as take RX 590 as proof of everything Kyle said was absolutely true(regarding performance) ).

Sometimes I suspect that certain people with agendas fuel this non stop bullshit of where people are getting all riled up and for absolutely nothing as basis (at one point I got named as Nvidia shill because of the same RX 590 and there was nothing in the RX 590 rumours that would suggest that it was miracle silicon).
It is simple , gpu design costs money less money less change of getting anywhere.

There are already youtube people talking up "fine wine" when it concerns Navi pointing towards 7970 the first GCN card and I am thinking why? Why pump people full of baseless shit, fine wine is okay if you have a product that will last several (3+) years but mid range cards do not even last 2 years before they are going to feel dated (exceptions noted).

The only tell I would put money on if AMD fix their power performance ratio (it may turn out that Navi does scale but hit limits at 60 CU).

Wait for After-Navi?

I was seriously hoping for better from AMD this round. Not everything needs a 2080Ti .

Based on what actually ?
Have you heard things we haven't?
The only thing that AMD seems to do well is when they design console APU, that is about it....

 

[IdiotInCharge]

Based on what actually ?

Time, really. They've had time to refine it and they've not had to work around ray tracing hardware.

 

[noko]

No the expectations are too high and that bullshit has been going on for far too long as well. Remember that suddenly Polaris could compete with 1080 some even said 1080TI it is all based on nothing. Those rumours were in the middle of where Kyle posted his piece on Polaris that it was slow and could not perform (certainly not beyond what it ended up as take RX 590 as proof of everything Kyle said was absolutely true(regarding performance) ).

Sometimes I suspect that certain people with agendas fuel this non stop bullshit of where people are getting all riled up and for absolutely nothing as basis (at one point I got named as Nvidia shill because of the same RX 590 and there was nothing in the RX 590 rumours that would suggest that it was miracle silicon).
It is simple , gpu design costs money less money less change of getting anywhere.

There are already youtube people talking up "fine wine" when it concerns Navi pointing towards 7970 the first GCN card and I am thinking why? Why pump people full of baseless shit, fine wine is okay if you have a product that will last several (3+) years but mid range cards do not even last 2 years before they are going to feel dated (exceptions noted).

The only tell I would put money on if AMD fix their power performance ratio (it may turn out that Navi does scale but hit limits at 60 CU).


Based on what actually ?
Have you heard things we haven't?
The only thing that AMD seems to do well is when they design console APU, that is about it....

Fine wine - well it may apply to Navi in general. 40 CU units of Navi outdoes 64 CU units of Vega with the same memory bandwidth on today games by 14%, the design has much promise once programmed to increase the number of instructions happening at once using wave 32. That is a pretty significant improvement. AMD slides says next gen RDNA for select lighting effects, not sure what that means, guessing Ray Tracing. Hothardware did some break down of RDNA or Navi in this case.

https://hothardware.com/reviews/amd-navi-radeon-rx-5700-architecture?page=1

Now Vega promises etc. for some of its features were never realized or turned out to be nothing, so will Navi actually deliver beyond the initial launch? Plus Microsoft and Sony next gen is late 2020 so features being used in Navi for the 5700 and 5700xt may take a rather long time to be realized for the developers to support if they work and are turned on. I thought next consoles were was sooner than that but nope. This also indicates Microsoft and Sony version is probably Navi+ or Navi 2 in the long run.

Something was missing from the E3 game expo - games supporting the new features of Navi besides the fidelity feature which I think will be available as well to previous generation(s). I don't recall anyone mentioning a game coming out or current one supporting wave 32. So it may look nice on paper, sounds good for sound bites but not used is even worst. Neat stuff not used is just wasteful, at least Nvidia has steadily push RTX with some fine examples that seems to be improving over time.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

games supporting the new features of Navi

I would really, really not advise investing too much attention to 'features' on AMD cards. Going back through their lineage even to the first ATi GPUs, there is a long history of AMD / ATi introducing 'features' that do not get used until they make their way into DirectX and are supported by other vendors, and in a form that is not compatible with what is originally released. Navi could always buck the trend, but it's a strong trend.