The GeForce RTX 2080 Ti is Too Damn High! @ [H]

trentchau said:
So just because it's not called Titan, Nvidia shouldn't charge what they want for it? Seemingly they owe something to us that a TI should never be above $1k, and if it is, then it should be named a titan?

A company can charge whatever they want for a product. It's that simple. What's also a truth is you can pay whatever you want for that product. You can decide you want it, or you can decide you don't. This isn't insulin medicine that you need to survive, it's a video card so you can get 20fps more in PubG.

What's in the name anyways? It's just a label. There's no graphics card law that says

"Article 86905: If a company charges this much more Money, they CANNOT use the naming structure of another card from the past".

I think you are getting hung up on a name, and thinking anything within that name structure should fit under relatively the same price.

I personally think Nvidia naming it the 2080ti is epicly stupid. Name it a Titan, and people would jump on it cause they want that premium. But it really honestly doesn't make a difference what they name it, cause it's a different product then the 2080 in terms of performance. I think Nvidia shot themselves in the foot though because now Titan pricing will be astronomically higher, and they effectively killed the 8~10 month hype of a TI card coming up that people were waiting to swallow up. The 1080ti did great cause it CREAMED the rest of the field and was worth the premium. What's Nvidia gonna release now? the 2080titty?


There is also the x factor of having a brand new technology that hasn't been tested yet in the Ray Tracing. Looking ayour numbers above, what if we find that

780Ti - Baseline performance in Ray Tracing- $699
980Ti - 5% increased performance in Ray Tracing - $649
1080Ti - 10% increase performance in raytracing - $699
2080Ti - 650% increased performance - ___________________

What would you charge then?
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How did you measure Ray Tracing numbers though, there are no games released with Ray Tracing and Windows doesn't even support it yet, so it's essentially a phantom feature at this point :p. I get it. They can charge whatever they want. But when you alienate say half of your base simply by the price you charge, you are going to sell less cards. Maybe I was just spoiled at how good the 1080Ti was at the time. If this is a Titan "T" instead of a 2080Ti, we aren't having the conversation though. It's definitely a hard pass for me at $1199 just on principle. If it comes down under $999 or I can pick one up used for cheap, I'll give it a try. But as it stands now, Nvidia's mid-upper range card previously occupied by the "Ti" name is no better (or very little better) than the 1080Ti I already have.
 
kirbyrj said:
How did you measure Ray Tracing numbers though, there are no games released with Ray Tracing and Windows doesn't even support it yet, so it's essentially a phantom feature at this point :p. I get it. They can charge whatever they want. But when you alienate say half of your base simply by the price you charge, you are going to sell less cards. Maybe I was just spoiled at how good the 1080Ti was at the time. If this is a Titan "T" instead of a 2080Ti, we aren't having the conversation though. It's definitely a hard pass for me at $1199 just on principle. If it comes down under $999 or I can pick one up used for cheap, I'll give it a try. But as it stands now, Nvidia's mid-upper range card previously occupied by the "Ti" name is no better (or very little better) than the 1080Ti I already have.
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And I respect that. Because it's your money and you decide how you spend it. I don't know about the alienating half the customer base though, something I've learned after finally growing up a little bit more in the internet age is the complaining group tends to be an EXTREME Vocal minority that is lead by a few cult of personality. It's almost for every single person complaining there are 15 if not 20 who are perfectly satisfied and spend more time playing games rather then jumping on forums to vent.

I think in this case also it's people being particularly spoiled by what they got. No one will give Nvidia a bone for it, but the 1080ti was a MONSTER, and what was it being released against...nothing. They really didn't have to release something like it. It was a tremendous value and will probably be one of the smartest price to performance cards to purchase for next several years imho.
 
trentchau said:
And I respect that. Because it's your money and you decide how you spend it. I don't know about the alienating half the customer base though, something I've learned after finally growing up a little bit more in the internet age is the complaining group tends to be an EXTREME Vocal minority that is lead by a few cult of personality. It's almost for every single person complaining there are 15 if not 20 who are perfectly satisfied and spend more time playing games rather then jumping on forums to vent.

I think in this case also it's people being particularly spoiled by what they got. No one will give Nvidia a bone for it, but the 1080ti was a MONSTER, and what was it being released against...nothing. They really didn't have to release something like it. It was a tremendous value and will probably be one of the smartest price to performance cards to purchase for next several years imho.
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i didnt complain about 1080ti price, i thougt it was quite expensive, sure.
 
I don’t think anybody likes the price - I don’t. Lot better things I could spend the ~$450 extra on.
Don’t really have a choice if I want smooth, playable frame rates at 4K with goodies cranked up.
I never once said “Take my money!”
 
Not the best looking chart but tried to put together some price/performance

metro last light 1080p

card price fps year $per frame adj price adj $per frame
8800gtx $599 12.5 2006 48
8800gt $200 09 2007 22
9800gtx+ $200 11 2008 18
GTX280 $649 19.5 2008 33.7 $750 38.5
GTX480 $499 40.5 2010 12 $579 14.3
GTX580 $499 48.5 2010 10 $576 11.9
GTX680 $499 62.6 2012 08 $549 8.8
GTX780TI $699 99 2013 07 $757 7.6
GTX980 $549 116.5 2014 04.7 $582 5
GTX980TI $649 145 2015 04.5 $686 4.7

metro last light 4k

GTX980 $549 31 2014 17.70 $582 18.8
GTX980TI $649 40 2015 16.23 $686 17.2
1080FE $699 47 2016 14.87 $735 15.6
1080TIFE $699 58 2017 12.05 $724 12.5
2080FE $799 65 2018 12.29 $700 12.3
2080TIFE $1199 87 2018 13.78 $1200 13.8
 
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Nolan7689 said:
Some minor points. 8800GTX wasn’t replacing anything in that product stack. It was the top card other than the Ultra (which I believe just had higher clocks?)

The 9800GTX however was literally just a refresh of the 8800GTX with higher clocks. Hence it’s lower pricing and the close release of the GTX280.
A further example can be the 8800GT (Which did replace the GTS for cheaper and similar performance.) which was refreshed with the 9800GT. Essentially identical though.

Pardon? How’s that
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https://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-8800-gtx/specifications
https://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-9800-gtx/specifications

the 8800gtx had more memory, more rop's, more tmu's, wider memory bus, more cuda cores, hence why 9800gtx was cheaper at the time of release. i also owned a 9800gtx

and those specs don't show pixel fill rate.
 
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I'm waiting for the specs/price on the next Titan. I've always bought the Ti variant, but may skip in favor of more frames since I game in 4K. I'm also going to purchase the BFG monitor from HP when launched, so I want all the horse power I can get for that massive thing. If Titan performance on 4K is 10% of Ti, then I'll have to reconsider all of it. I currently have a 42" 4K monitor which still satisfies. In the end am I happy about the situation and costs...not a bit. Am I still dedicated to PC gaming on big 4K monitors and the best cards for Ultra graphics and game play, Yes I am.
 
skates15 said:
I'm waiting for the specs/price on the next Titan. I've always bought the Ti variant, but may skip in favor of more frames since I game in 4K. I'm also going to purchase the BFG monitor from HP when launched, so I want all the horse power I can get for that massive thing. If Titan performance on 4K is 10% of Ti, then I'll have to reconsider all of it. I currently have a 42" 4K monitor which still satisfies. In the end am I happy about the situation and costs...not a bit. Am I still dedicated to PC gaming on big 4K monitors and the best cards for Ultra graphics and game play, Yes I am.
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Look at the Quadro 8000. That’s basically what the Titan would be minus some ram.

You could wait for 7nm but who knows how long that’ll be.
 
Dayaks said:
Look at the Quadro 8000. That’s basically what the Titan would be minus some ram.

You could wait for 7nm but who knows how long that’ll be.
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While I'm tempted to say next year, I don't really think the Turing will be short lived. Unless AMD pulls off a "Zen" GPU
 
Dayaks said:
Look at the Quadro 8000. That’s basically what the Titan would be minus some ram.

You could wait for 7nm but who knows how long that’ll be.
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I plan to wait and see if the price comes down after 6 months. If not, I'll look at the Quadro, thanks for the tip. I do want all the ram I can get for 4K gaming though.
 
d3athf1sh said:
don't forget you can't use DLSS and RTX at the same time from what i understood..?
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happymedium said:
Yes you can.
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Dayaks said:
Happymedium is right. The Starwars demo does both so it is technically possible and games are slated to launch with both.
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yes happy medium is right but so is d3athf1sh technically. though games and applications can take advantage of both, the RT and tensor cares cannot be loaded at the same time as per Tom Petersen.
 
looniam said:
yes happy medium is right but so is d3athf1sh technically. though games and applications can take advantage of both, the RT and tensor cares cannot be loaded at the same time as per Tom Petersen.
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But they can run at the same frame. So I think its not really an issue.
I assume its designed that way because you have to render the RT part first and then use the tensor cores for denoising. I assume the extra workload on using DLSS would hurt performance.
 
looniam said:
yes happy medium is right but so is d3athf1sh technically. though games and applications can take advantage of both, the RT and tensor cares cannot be loaded at the same time as per Tom Petersen.
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Stoly said:
But they can run at the same frame. So I think its not really an issue.
I assume its designed that way because you have to render the RT part first and then use the tensor cores for denoising. I assume the extra workload on using DLSS would hurt performance.
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The Star Wars demo uses RT and DLSS at the same time to get the frame rate up. DLSS happens on the end image is all he meant.
 
So DLSS is basically some sort of new edge sharpening tool ( antialiasing ) ? Or am I over simplifying it or just plain wrong.

Honestly, at 4K, I turn that off. It's a lot less prevalent to me due to all those pixels. I just don't see the jagged edges at 4K.
 
SixFootDuo said:
So DLSS is basically some sort of new edge sharpening tool ( antialiasing ) ? Or am I over simplifying it or just plain wrong.

Honestly, at 4K, I turn that off. It's a lot less prevalent to me due to all those pixels. I just don't see the jagged edges at 4K.
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DLSS is not really anti-aliasing in the traditional sense. What it does is take less samples of the scene (for example, half the pixels) and uses AI to fill in the missing data.

You can think of it like PS4 Pro checkerboard rendering. But on PS4 Pro it's basically just interpolating colors, while DLSS uses AI to intelligently find colors for the unrendered pixels.

The point isn't so much to remove edges (it does that too) but to reduce shader processing resulting in higher frame rates.
 
cybereality said:
DLSS is not really anti-aliasing in the traditional sense. What it does is take less samples of the scene (for example, half the pixels) and uses AI to fill in the missing data.

You can think of it like PS4 Pro checkerboard rendering. But on PS4 Pro it's basically just interpolating colors, while DLSS uses AI to intelligently find colors for the unrendered pixels.

The point isn't so much to remove edges (it does that too) but to reduce shader processing resulting in higher frame rates.
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And DLSS 2X takes the native and upscales that, which is the one I care about but data is super limited on it haha. Ohhh nVidia how you fucked this launch...
 
Stoly said:
But they can run at the same frame. So I think its not really an issue.
I assume its designed that way because you have to render the RT part first and then use the tensor cores for denoising. I assume the extra workload on using DLSS would hurt performance.
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Dayaks said:
The Star Wars demo uses RT and DLSS at the same time to get the frame rate up. DLSS happens on the end image is all he meant.
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i admit i was attempting to be a little cheeky . . it does appear it happens at different times in the pipeline.

though, it does spark the thought that maybe RT performance in gaming is so abysmal because of a latency issue that doesn't happen when rendering in an app since the "calls" don't happen nearly as frequently.

but ofc i am just spitballing here . .
 
ScottSummers79 said:
I remember driving to two different Best Buys on launch day for the GeForce 4 Ti 4600 and spending $1200 + tax for three of them. I remember how everyone looked at us like we were insane when we got back home and were so happy & proud of being able to get three of them.

I remember shortly thereafter thinking that spending any more than that would have been really insane and kind of setting a hard limit (that I've broken just one time since when I bought a 1080 for $425) that $400 was going to be my card of choice moving forward.

The concept of spending that much for one card is just outside of my hitbox, even if my disposable income has increased by more than the CPI has in the same length of time.
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Just to put that into perspective, $400 in 2002 is about $560 today. A 2080Ti is basically double the cost of a GeForce 4 Ti 4600, but performance is significantly more than 2x! That $1200 is actually about $1700 today.

Edit: More perspective. A GeForce 4 Ti 4600 was only 142mm^2. A 2080Ti is now 754mm^2. That's 5.3x!
 
1Nocturnal101 said:
Apply Inflation for the gap....I'm willing to bet you almost did....lol
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A Voodoo 5 5500 was $299 IIRC, that's $450 today. A Voodoo 5 6000 would've been $599 and that's $900 today. Even using the USGs conservative inflation estimates, prices have increased at least 50% since 1999.

The official inflation stats back out a lot of technological progress and really don't compare like to like. Plus, the formula is constantly rejiggered to make inflation look lower. Thus, 50% is probably an underestimate.
 
d3athf1sh said:
https://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-8800-gtx/specifications
https://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-9800-gtx/specifications

the 8800gtx had more memory, more rop's, more tmu's, wider memory bus, more cuda cores, hence why 9800gtx was cheaper at the time of release. i also owned a 9800gtx

and those specs don't show pixel fill rate.
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On the 8800 page, I’m pretty sure that’s the clock rate.

https://www.nvidia.com/page/geforce_8800.html
 
1Nocturnal101 said:
Honestly judging by the way the industry is reacting to this, I am going to say this will spread like wildfire, Peterson from Nvidia stated anything that can use TAA currently can have DLSS added easily, so we are probably looking at seeing this sideloaded into past games as well. The Industry is more excited about this than gamers are. Which is freaking weird.
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I'm all for the technology, and I'm excited to see where it will go.

That said, I'm very disappointed they have tied it to the Geforce Experience. I hate having that garbage bloatware/spyware installed on my machine.
 
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Even with everyone complaining about price, sales are completely outstripping supply. You cant find a 2080ti anywhere.

It's funny how much some scalpers are asking for 2080ti's on eBay. I saw one for $1800...
 
skates15 said:
I'm waiting for the specs/price on the next Titan. I've always bought the Ti variant, but may skip in favor of more frames since I game in 4K. I'm also going to purchase the BFG monitor from HP when launched, so I want all the horse power I can get for that massive thing. If Titan performance on 4K is 10% of Ti, then I'll have to reconsider all of it. I currently have a 42" 4K monitor which still satisfies. In the end am I happy about the situation and costs...not a bit. Am I still dedicated to PC gaming on big 4K monitors and the best cards for Ultra graphics and game play, Yes I am.
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Well, the Titan is no longer a gaming brand. Nvidia had been talking about dropping the gaming emphasis on Titan in favor of professional machine learning and research applications for some time, but they finally did it on the Titan V. Granted, it's still a pretty beastly gaming solution, but its moved from the previously ridiculed $1,200 pricetag to $3000. Future Titans will likely cost even more. They can justify this when targeting enterprise users.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Even with everyone complaining about price, sales are completely outstripping supply. You cant find a 2080ti anywhere.

It's funny how much some scalpers are asking for 2080ti's on eBay. I saw one for $1800...
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Cant find what has not been produced. On the other hand the 2080 is in stock everywhere pretty much cause not many want it. Also you can ask anything you want on Ebay, doesn't mean they are getting it.

Edit: My bad guess they are getting it, odd some will pay so much just to have it now.
 
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Zarathustra[H] said:
Even with everyone complaining about price, sales are completely outstripping supply. You cant find a 2080ti anywhere.

It's funny how much some scalpers are asking for 2080ti's on eBay. I saw one for $1800...
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Sure, just look at the last 8 Sold listings on Ebay for the RTX 2080 Ti:

$1450, $1599, $1588, $1599, $1400, $1600, $1674, and a MSI Trio for a cool $2,099!

Edit: Oh look, someone bought a MSI Trio for $2,750 on 9/24 at 17:33. Crazy!
 
NukeDukem said:
Sure, just look at the last 8 Sold listings on Ebay for the RTX 2080 Ti:

$1450, $1599, $1588, $1599, $1400, $1600, $1674, and a MSI Trio for a cool $2,099!

Edit: Oh look, someone bought a MSI Trio for $2,750 on 9/24 at 17:33. Crazy!
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It's nuts.

I don't understand what goes through the head of someone who ABSOLUTELY HAS TO HAVE IT NOW!

It will still be the same GPU in a couple of weeks when supply is more abundant.

I refuse to ever buy anything above MSRP or face value. Scalpers can shove it.
 
Well, I pulled the trigger on a 2080 Ti FE pre-order from Best Buy. I was trying pretty much all day yesterday and couldn't get the order in fast enough but I got lucky this morning and they had an FE in-stock when I checked. I really don't like the pricing but the performance is where I need it to be, and 1080 Ti prices have slowly crept back up to MSRP (and then some) over the past few weeks since that amazing $526 fire sale everyone jumped on. No sense paying $700 or more for a card I could've bought 18 months ago, which was just a cheaper version of the Titan X (Pascal) I bought a few months prior (and then sold for purchase price and replaced with a 1070).

Ordered up an EK block + backplate. I know water doesn't help with overclocking anymore but at least the card will run cool and the clocks will be consistent.
 
techguymaxc said:
Well, I pulled the trigger on a 2080 Ti FE pre-order from Best Buy. I was trying pretty much all day yesterday and couldn't get the order in fast enough but I got lucky this morning and they had an FE in-stock when I checked. I really don't like the pricing but the performance is where I need it to be, and 1080 Ti prices have slowly crept back up to MSRP (and then some) over the past few weeks since that amazing $526 fire sale everyone jumped on. No sense paying $700 or more for a card I could've bought 18 months ago, which was just a cheaper version of the Titan X (Pascal) I bought a few months prior (and then sold for purchase price and replaced with a 1070).

Ordered up an EK block + backplate. I know water doesn't help with overclocking anymore but at least the card will run cool and the clocks will be consistent.
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From what I've seen, these cards run rather cool to start with. I'm picking mine up tomorrow. I'm very possibly considering getting a new case with greater air volume / air flow.
 
SixFootDuo said:
From what I've seen, these cards run rather cool to start with. I'm picking mine up tomorrow. I'm very possibly considering getting a new case with greater air volume / air flow.
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I suppose that depends on your definition of "cool". From what I've seen, most of them seem to run in the 70's C under gaming load. Most of my water-cooled video cards in the past few years run in the 30s-40s, which means they avoid throttling.
 
SixFootDuo said:
From what I've seen, these cards run rather cool to start with. I'm picking mine up tomorrow. I'm very possibly considering getting a new case with greater air volume / air flow.
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Just get a Thermaltake P5 and wall mount it like I did...no airflow issues anymore.
 
NukeDukem said:
Sure, just look at the last 8 Sold listings on Ebay for the RTX 2080 Ti:

$1450, $1599, $1588, $1599, $1400, $1600, $1674, and a MSI Trio for a cool $2,099!

Edit: Oh look, someone bought a MSI Trio for $2,750 on 9/24 at 17:33. Crazy!
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Could be foreign from the US where it’s hard to get cards, costs similar, ect.
 
techguymaxc said:
Sure, but then we have temps in the 70s under load with high fan speeds (noise) as well. Also, every 10C drop in temp is good for 3-4W power reduction as well, which can lead to higher clocks if you're power-constrained (rather than voltage-limited).
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I guess it would depend on your definition of "noise." From what I've heard, most of them seem to run without an annoying sound profile under a gaming load. Most of my air-cooled video cards in teh past few years run without noise issues, and they avoid throttling.
 
Keep Calm 2.png
 
Does Ray Trace even work yet?

And what the hell can you even test it on. I'm old and my memory fades from time to time, but do you remember when Nvidia used to have new cards come out with new AAA games that took advantage of their new feature sets?

And to answer your question...1300 dollars? In a word....HELL NO! I didn't pay 1300 dollars for my whole system! I expect to spent 30-40% of my PC budget on graphics. But damn!

Sure I've spent more on dummer sh!!+ for my PC. But this is beyond a financial struggle...it's a moral battle! I cannot, with clear conscious, buy an RTX until it's 100% implemented and there's at least ONE title...that I'm dying to play...that takes advantage of the new technology. And even then...Woof $1300 bucks?
 
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AngeloBJ said:
Does Ray Trace even work yet?

And what the hell can you even test it on. I'm old and my memory fades from time to time, but do you remember when Nvidia used to have new cards come out with new AAA games that took advantage of their new feature sets?

And to answer your question...1300 dollars? In a word....HELL NO! I didn't pay 1300 dollars for my whole system! I expect to spent 30-40% of my PC budget on graphics. But damn!

Sure I've spent more on dummer sh!!+ for my PC. But this is beyond a financial struggle...it's a moral battle! I cannot, with clear conscious, buy an RTX until it's 100% implemented and there's at least ONE title...that I'm dying to play...that takes advantage of the new technology. And even then...Woof $1300 bucks?
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Yeah, Im right there with you. The ONLY game I can see myself buying for Ray Tracing is Cyberpunk (if it even has the fuction) & the new Elderscrolls game, which are both still a ways away. We'll probably have a new card out before ES comes out anyways.
 
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