Why AMD’s Superior Compatibility Could End

Megalith

Megalith

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Many applaud AMD’s decision to support their AM4 platform until at least 2020, but some believe this plan could come to an end due to the prevalence of outdated motherboard BIOS. Users are frustrated because the BIOS on older motherboards must be updated before newer chips can be detected, but vendors, arguably, do not make this process easy enough.

If AMD keeps receiving backlash for continuing support then I feel this is something they might abandon after 2020 and instead adopt a compatibility cycle similar to Intel's: hitting reset every couple of generations and forcing you to invest in a new platform that might not offer anything new beyond CPU support.
 
Always wondered why is it that after all these years of problem with bios flashing with cpu upgrade and everything,that flashing bios via Usb without cpu in like some of the top end board is not mandatory in the design at this point.Would solve all that Rma/Loan Cpu/Going to the store/Asking friend with similar cpu assle.
 
Meh. I don't think the argument makes too much sense. But you can always love having to get a new mobo with Intel. Maybe Intel will make bios un-updatetable and will surely be commended for it.
 
It's 2018, we should have the ability to update a motherboard without a CPU or RAM. You can buy an ARM SOC for pennies these days, a self-checking BIOS should be easy.


Edit: Doumz beat me to it.
 
Megalith said:
Many applaud AMD’s decision to support their AM4 platform until at least 2020, but some believe this plan could come to an end due to the prevalence of outdated motherboard BIOS. Users are frustrated because the BIOS on older motherboards must be updated before newer chips can be detected, but vendors, arguably, do not make this process easy enough.

If AMD keeps receiving backlash for continuing support then I feel this is something they might abandon after 2020 and instead adopt a compatibility cycle similar to Intel's: hitting reset every couple of generations and forcing you to invest in a new platform that might not offer anything new beyond CPU support.
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That is a problem and the BIOS they do release (at least ASUS) makes and then breaks RAM compatibility time after time in my experience with the platform over the last year.
 
yeah I just bought a new b350 board with a R5 2400G and it didn't work.. luckily our corporate sales guy took it back to update the bios :/
 
AMD has a great opportunity here to push standard BIOS updates over USB. It would make everyone’s life easier.

I had actually bought a 2200G for a mining PC and I returned it after a few weeks without being able to buy a “Ryzen 2000 Ready” motherboard. I’ll pick up another one later this year for my HTPC project.
 
I don't really care too much about new sockets since I almost invariably purchase a new motherboard with a CPU. Memory compatibility is nice though.
 
Ultima99 said:
Where's my popcorn?
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:D

I'll toss my two cents into the ring.

I have a Phenom X2 that is waiting to get keychained because it served me through three motherboard replacements and finally succumbed to too much voltage in a doomed OC marathon.

I don't buy the argument that they make upgrading the CPU difficult. Most people who don't know how to do it, have a friend of a friend's redheaded stepchild to do it. And if you're sadly bereft of such friends or family, you take it to a computer shop.

AMD's policy at least allows you to replace your mobo over extended CPU release cycles. And get all the latest features anyway (so you could do it just because you want USB3 or whatever the case might be - so the features argument is bollocks). And if you need more CPU, you can upgrade to a new architecture while keeping your costs down, as with Bulldozer/Zen on AM4.

Intel's policy probably does move more CPUs, but there's no way one could argue that it's easier for the end user.

I'd rather flash my bios than rebuild the whole thing with new guts. But then, none of my friends or their relatives are red-headed stepchildren.
 
It would certainly have been in their interest to ensure that any AM4 CPU would boot in any AM4 motherboard. Get the user into the BIOS if there's something wrong, let them know what they need to do to fix it, etc.


[personal experience note: I have an ITX ASRock Z270 board that has the ability to update over the web, but the feature failed repeatedly despite having a good internet connection... so if they get that working regularly, and with most boards shipping with wifi, this would be a non-issue if the boards could simply auto-update over internet using a cheap Linux ARM SoC to run the display]
 
DeathFromBelow said:
I don't really care too much about new sockets since I almost invariably purchase a new motherboard with a CPU. Memory compatibility is nice though.
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Problem here was AMD launched a new CPUs without motherboards to support then. When the 2200G and 2400G launches, there were zero boards to buy that would support the CPUs out of the box.
 
We know the platform will change once DDR5 is adopted. But will AMD put dual memory controllers in the new chips? AM4 could be around for awhile.
 
Put me into the "returned a 2400G and a B350 MB" column. Didn't want too, but the difficulty in getting the whole thing working and the excuses from both the vendors and AMD far outweighed the difficulty in just going back to the store and returning everything.
 
gigaxtreme1 said:
We know the platform will change once DDR5 is adopted. But will AMD put dual memory controllers in the new chips? AM4 could be around for awhile.
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Do we know that DDR4 -> DDR5 will be any different than DDR3 -> DDR4, or any of the previous transitions?

Because unless DDR5 more than doubles upper-mainstream DDR4 bandwidth, I don't see a reduction in channels being a thing.

And especially not for AMD with their focus on more cores and higher performing APUs.
 
I think having a motherboard that is compatible with current gen +1 is a good start. That way you can upgrade your CPU and keep your board. The 3rd CPU, time to upgrade your board again, 4th CPU just drop it in.
 
Don't make BIOS updates easy enough??

I don't recall the last time I needed to find a working 3.5" floppy to create a bootup disk in order to flash my BIOS.

Heck, the newest boards just need an Ethernet connection to jump online and check themselves!

Damn kids these days don't know how good they got it.

Now get off my lawn!
 
FYI
ASUS already does this.

I bought a 2700X, and an open box X370 CHVI board with an old bios. Would not boot with 2700X.

Put new bios on USB, named appropriately, plugged into marked USB port on back, then pressed the flash button.

Shazam. No boot kit required.
 
thebufenator said:
FYI
ASUS already does this.

I bought a 2700X, and an open box X370 CHVI board with an old bios. Would not boot with 2700X.

Put new bios on USB, named appropriately, plugged into marked USB port on back, then pressed the flash button.

Shazam. No boot kit required.
Click to expand...

ASUS only does this on a few of their high end boards.
 
Ocellaris said:
I had actually bought a 2200G for a mining PC and I returned it after a few weeks without being able to buy a “Ryzen 2000 Ready” motherboard.
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Just out of curiosity why didn't you try AMD's CPU loan program?
 
1_rick said:
Just out of curiosity why didn't you try AMD's CPU loan program?
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I filled out the form and they told me I needed a motherboard first.

Then I ran into a bunch of people who had CPUs and 350 and 370 boards getting the runaround on Reddit and decided I would just wait.
 
Doward said:
Don't make BIOS updates easy enough??

I don't recall the last time I needed to find a working 3.5" floppy to create a bootup disk in order to flash my BIOS.

Heck, the newest boards just need an Ethernet connection to jump online and check themselves!

Damn kids these days don't know how good they got it.

Now get off my lawn!
Click to expand...
With my Asus board, I always lose my OC profiles after updating which is kinda irritating. I wish they would find a way to keep them.
 
bigdogchris said:
With my Asus board, I always lose my OC profiles after updating which is kinda irritating. I wish they would find a way to keep them.
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MSI's Titanium doesn't lose them..... but any BIOS update that adds new features breaks the profile so that it can't load lmao Was nice in the initial few releases, but after that the profiles started breaking. Ultimately, I took to modifying the updated BIOS every time with MY defaults. From there, I took a screenshot of DRAM Timings, Voltages and Power Delivery settings (which get saved to the thumbdrive with the BIOS), flash the BIOS, pop the thumbdrive into my laptop to pull of the pictures and make my changes.

Though you're right, there should be a way with how advanced the BIOS has become (well... lol it's still rather primitive) that can easily associate a major system setting across any BIOS revision. Because clearly the current way AMI does it with Hex Values, doesn't work. The addition of new features and new Help Strings, as motherboard makers currently do it, ends up pushing current ones down the list and adjusts their value, thereby breaking the profile's ability to match saved values with their BIOS option.


Galvin said:
Why cant they just put the bios on the cpu?
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Ocellaris said:
For every board?
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That was rumored to be how AMD's next CPU (what ultimately culminated to be Zen) was going to work, whether we understood AMD"s intent correctly, or if they just couldn't explain their plan properly without divulging too much. Either way it was met with huge community backlash. My, and no doubt many many others concern, was a bricked CPU from a simple failed BIOS flash. Because sadly failed flashes still happen somehow. I bricked my brand new FM2 board from MSI by using their release BIOS with their own flashing system. I never had that problem with Gigabyte's. Actually I've never had this issue ever, and I've flashed countless heavily modified Award BIOSes over the years! This was my first bricked mobo, and it wasn't even with a modded BIOS! lol

That being said... the idea may not be too bad overall but from a different angle...
Not putting the whole BIOS on the chip, but putting only a very basic portion of the AGESA microcode on it! That way the motherboard makers simply have to read the info off the chip, update itself, and voila, compatibility! (at least that's how it'd work in my mind lol)


Alas, as lots have pointed out, I see no reason that updating a BIOS from a USB drive with the special filename, just as some motherboards are able to do now, can't be made an industry standard across every make, model and configuration. Shouldn't matter if it's an Award, AMI, or InsydeH2O (who seem to be just based on AMI), and whomever else is out there making BIOSes... just make this a common standard amongst yourselves dammit!
 
AMD could require BIOS updates for all CPU's released on a socket, as part of the license to motherboard vendors to produce boards.

On the one hand this could solve the problem, but on the other, it might result in fewer motherboards being released.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
AMD could require BIOS updates for all CPU's released on a socket, as part of the license to motherboard vendors to produce boards.

On the one hand this could solve the problem, but on the other, it might result in fewer motherboards being released.
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The problem wasn’t missing BIOSes, it was with end users having no way of installing them with a new CPU. And AMD launches the Ryzen G chips with zero new boards so a lot of people had to deal with a hassle.
 
Ocellaris said:
The problem wasn’t missing BIOSes, it was with end users having no way of installing them with a new CPU. And AMD launches the Ryzen G chips with zero new boards so a lot of people had to deal with a hassle.
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the fx series was exactly like that too and all am2, fm1 etc etc. every new cpu update needed bios updates for the older/already in the wild mobos. I guess if you've been using only intel it might have been different but you were pretty much force to get a new mobo every chip update. so spend more money for almost every cpu update or find a way to flash a bios... I would get around this by buying local and getting a price match then have them flash the bios for you. my local(memex in canana) will install the chip and hsf, update the bios if needed and do a quick post test for no charge. as I said, this isn't anything new.
 
Ocellaris said:
I filled out the form and they told me I needed a motherboard first.

Then I ran into a bunch of people who had CPUs and 350 and 370 boards getting the runaround on Reddit and decided I would just wait.
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Wait just a cotton pickin minute!

You didn't have the motherboard that you needed to use the with loaner CPU and you call that getting the runaround?

Jesus H Christ! What else would you want? Lisa Su to come to your house and personally update the bios for you, then kiss you on the cheek as she tucked you I at night?

I'll guarandammtee you that 99.99% of these people bitching about getting the runaround were doing something ignorant just like you.

The AMD loaner p[program was all over the interwebs back in FEBUARY! Didn't anyone here bitching about the BIO upgrades even bother to read about at what it was?

I swear a lot of you people have the attention span of a gnat.
 
Ocellaris said:
The problem wasn’t missing BIOSes, it was with end users having no way of installing them with a new CPU. And AMD launches the Ryzen G chips with zero new boards so a lot of people had to deal with a hassle.
Click to expand...

Ah. I had that same problem when I built a Kaveri based 7850 APU at launch. I wound up buying the cheapest compatible CPU I could find, used on eBay (a Richland A4-4000) just so I could flash the BIOS to support the Kaveri chip.

I sold the motherboard an 7850 a few years ago, but I still have the A4-4000 sitting in a box. No idea what to do with it. Not worth the hassle of trying to sell it, even if there was anyone out there willing to pay for it. I'd donate it if there were somewhere that took PC hardware locally.

Aren't there motherboards these days that can flash a bios from a special USB port without a CPU even installed? I vaguely remember seeing this.
 
OldBuzzard said:
Wait just a cotton pickin minute!

You didn't have the motherboard that you needed to use the with loaner CPU and you call that getting the runaround?

Jesus H Christ! What else would you want? Lisa Su to come to your house and personally update the bios for you, then kiss you on the cheek as she tucked you I at night?

I'll guarandammtee you that 99.99% of these people bitching about getting the runaround were doing something ignorant just like you.

The AMD loaner p[program was all over the interwebs back in FEBUARY! Didn't anyone here bitching about the BIO upgrades even bother to read about at what it was?

I swear a lot of you people have the attention span of a gnat.
Click to expand...

Not worth wasting my time any further when a bunch of people were having trouble getting AMD to send them a CPU.
 
I wish amd wouldn’t support platforms as long. Look at the am3 platform. How long was that around? By the end of its life it was way behind intel on features. As much as it sucks buying a new mb for a cpu at least you’re getting the latest features.
 
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