No nV wants more, they want a separate brand that designates their cards, they believe their cards are different, better and deserve to be pointed out. If I had a product and another company was selling, I wouldn't want them to be put along with other products.
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GeForce Partner Program Impacts Consumer Choice
- Thread starter FrgMstr
- Start date
No nV wants more, they want a separate brand that designates their cards, they believe their cards are different, better and deserve to be pointed out. If I had a product and another company was selling, I wouldn't want them to be put along with other products.
ghostwich
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In discussing this elsewhere, a few Google searches and sure history does repeat itself...
"Tier 0 partners have to drop competitive products, AMD in this case, publicly badmouth AMD, and put out press releases/bang the publicity drum on the subject. The idea is to make it look like a grassroots problem that high-end gaming PC makers are all sick of AMD and the alleged but manufactured and false quality problems. In return they get paid in the form of product discounts, MDF, and/or other assorted funding to a total directly based on the sales of AMD products they either had or would likely have had. On top of this they also gain earlier access to Maxwell GPUs than other OEMs."
https://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/05/much-nvidia-pay-origin-pc-drop-amd/
https://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/07/nvidias-program-get-oems-like-origin-pc-dump-amd-called-tier-0/
"Tier 0 partners have to drop competitive products, AMD in this case, publicly badmouth AMD, and put out press releases/bang the publicity drum on the subject. The idea is to make it look like a grassroots problem that high-end gaming PC makers are all sick of AMD and the alleged but manufactured and false quality problems. In return they get paid in the form of product discounts, MDF, and/or other assorted funding to a total directly based on the sales of AMD products they either had or would likely have had. On top of this they also gain earlier access to Maxwell GPUs than other OEMs."
https://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/05/much-nvidia-pay-origin-pc-drop-amd/
https://semiaccurate.com/2013/10/07/nvidias-program-get-oems-like-origin-pc-dump-amd-called-tier-0/
Master_shake_
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Yeah I know I get confused when I go to buy high mileage engine oil and there are just so many different high mileage 5W-30 oils I accidentally bought 2 Quaker State 2 Valvoline and 2 Pennzoil.
I can hardly imagine the hard time at looking at boxes with different words on them and trying to purchase the right product.
Well to be fair, more bling might help. At least once per hour, any and all leds on the card must flash green perhaps. Any geforce logo must be displayed in green.
Do you know what watering down a brand is. Its very common and happens quite often. Its poor marketing. Companies shouldn't put two competitors products and have them under the same umbrella for both. This is a no no and is bad advertising.
https://www.fisiononline.com/blog/brand-watered-down-brand-management/
I have worked in advertising only a short stint and many years ago, but this is one of the first things you never do when it comes to branding products specially if they aren't your products. The rules and guidelines are always DICTATED by the product owners.
Take ya back to American Gangster.
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bigdogchris
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Saying that was an attempt at sarcasm. A common sense, transparent letter explaining the situation from Nvidia doesn't exist... that's the point I was trying to make to someone that seems to be defending Nvidia.Oooh, can I have the link to that? I bet it explains everything and this is all just one big silly misunderstanding that AMD planted/rigged/set-up to try and make nVidia look bad when all they have is the very best of intentions to the gaming community to help it grow and prosper.
Can't WAIT to read it, pls link!
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FearTheCow
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GeForce is the brand, the only way to water it down is if they water it down themselves.
Geforce nV's brand, but its under the, lets use ROG for example again, ROG brand from ASUS. What nV wants is ROG shouldn't have any other products that are similar to their products in that brand. This is common practice by any branding agencies out there, they never do this, companies know this, but if not policed by the owners its not looked as bad because for them its cheaper and no extra work. This is why I stated this will hurt AIB's more than OEM's, OEM's "brand" is not policed by AMD, or nV or Intel, they just send them logos and what not, use them to brand. This is not really done in most industries this flippantly. Take coca cola for example, its brand is damn strong. Why because they stuck with it, with the same color schemes, same logos, everything from day one, no changes outside of changes they did. Stores don't change anything on coca cola's advertising and brand. Do we see Amazon putting an umbrella branding when selling coke and pepsi? Do we see stores doing that? Do you know why? Because they have damn strict guidelines on their branding of their products. First off when you have independent fast food joints you never see coke and pepsi together, its one or the other. I can pretty much say there must be some type of exclusivity going on there. I do know a brand manager (VP) at Pepsi, I should ask her if that is a case.
Its like putting diesel jeans, next to orange tag levi's and selling them. Yeah it shouldn't make a difference but companies don't like it. Why do you think companies have to "buy" shelf space for specific products, so they stick out more. They are more visible. This is the same thing. If you want it to be more direct, Levi's red tag vs orange tag, they don't even like putting them next to each other, or even sometimes in the same store!
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Sodapopjones
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AMD is garbage and nVidia is out to get us.
*Looks at new guitar rig and smiles
*Looks at new guitar rig and smiles
FearTheCow
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I will break this down real simple for you...
GeForce = Nvidia brand
ROG = ASUS brand
Radeon = AMD brand
It's not hard to understand unless someone has Nvidia so far down their throat that their eyes are tearing up.
The nonsense you are spouting is actually brand dilution because Nvidia would effectively have their own brand and every gaming brand made my other companies. Fuck, let me make this simple...
1 thing = strong
1 thing spread amongst other things = dilution
I don't think this is necessarily true. Sure, NVIDIA might want you to differentiate it's products, but Asus wants you to buy an Asus, regardless of whether or not it's a "geforce" or if its "radeon"`. They want to establish the ROG brand so that you'll buy ROG products regardless of what chip is on board. Your argument doesn't really make much sense because they don't necessarily want to establish NVIDIA's brands, they want to build their own. So your argument might make sense from NVIDIA's point of view, but really this is a tug of war between NVIDIA and it's AIB's about how they market their products and it's really not a good look.
It's interesting that that I've never heard people complain about AIB's having two different GPU vendors products under the same brand until one of those GPU companies is accused of doing something shady.
Except it's not that simple. These AIB products are co-branded. They're like a marriage. Both brands appear on the box, and the two together are greater than the sum of their parts. But based on current industry trends, marketshare and chart topping dominance, the main portion of that sum is thanks to the Nvidia GPU.
When someone walks into a store and scans the shelves for the most powerful GPU, they're first and foremost scanning the boxes looking for "GeForce" and "1070/1080/1080Ti". Secondarily they're looking at the AIB brand. STRIX has a good rep - but the main force behind their glowing GPU creds is the nvidia chip. Period. How many people would really care about Strix GPUs if they suddenly didn't feature GeForce GPUs? Let's get real.
That said, I think there's gotta be more to GPP than the kneejerking and assumptions going on, because Nvidia doesn't even need this aggravation. Their chips sell themselves no matter what's on the box - they could come in plain paper bags and sales would remain exactly the same.
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Gideon
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Please most of the market is not looking for a 1070 and up most are in the 1060 and down cards. The lower end of what we consider is what sells in numbers and their second thing is the price, most could give it a shit if it's a ROG or Strix or whatever. What does help tho is calling it the Ultimate Gamers edition or Titanium greased lighting or some other made up marketing bullshit and thus why Nvidia is trying to force them to use a different terminology for AMD. If they dont need this aggravation then maybe they should clarify it rather then saying nothing or did they send you to explain it to us?
Ehmm, What exactly does this mean? That the competitive chipsets were "non-hot" or "noticeably less-hot" ?? The "hot or not" discussion has a meaning only if the competition of that time could produce "non-hot or noticeably less-hot" chipshets!! otherwise this discussion has no point.
Anyway, the point of my #318 post was that the NForce chipsets were forced out of the market regardless of their -(most of the time)- superior performance.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1017/10 , https://www.anandtech.com/show/1279/13 , https://techreport.com/review/7655/nvidia-nforce4-ultra-chipset/19 , https://www.anandtech.com/show/2036/8
That was because of the legal-actions from NV's competitors and had nothing to do with the product's performance.
I can't comment about the legal arguments of this specific dispute between Intel & NVidia, but what i know as a customer, is that there was a time when Intel needed NVidia's chipset (NForce4 SLI ) in order not to be annihilated from AMD at the performance-crown, since Intel coudn't have SLI support at that time (*NVidia was only making chipsets for AMD back then) and crossfire didn't exist as well . ( https://www.anandtech.com/show/1662/16 )
That in the link is a fairly shitty article.
Sure, sure, Nvidia fed them a line, they called it 'investigating', yeah YEAH, we only meant the LINE of the cards suuuure!
I find it ever so difficult to accuse Kyle of being a shill for anyone, as I think with time (I too have been reading this website probably since its inception) he has been 'blacklisted' from time to time by what? everyone? most recently AMD.
Pisses me off that they mis-characterized what Kyle said about AMD shopping for the story, as if this shit is not done routinely, as if it wasn't done with other sites as Kyle mentioned; plus AMD didn't have him dig shit, as if he's an attack dog.. yeah, they attack dog that was blacklisted mere months ago based on his previous investigative article, shit that makes sense.
What makes more sense is that article from the link is a piece of junk, sorry it just reads as such.
Dafuq that line in the end about AMD can't sue or some shit, that doesn't make a lick sense to me, the program an its consequences will be what stand in the end.
Anarchist4000
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Those 4th quarter numbers aren't "little" and "fastest in gaming", while nice from a marketing perspective, isn't everything. While mining surely helped, it's the APUs and OEM sales that will drive the big gains in share. The very reason Intel owns a majority of the market. AMD's Ryzen 2400 and Intel's Kaby-G are respectable gaming platforms that haven't had time to make an impact yet. While not ultra high end, there is a volume of potential customers there developers won't ignore and that share is coming right out of Nvidia's mobile and low end product stack. Extending further if a mid range APU arrives to displace the 580/1600 market.
The GPP definitely seems a move to cut losses at Nvidia's partners' expense. Not that far off of the whole Founder's Edition scheme to essentially steal back partner profits.
D
Deleted member 133315
Guest
you know what.
It’s all this bullshit from nvidia that made me stop gaming on a pc. Ok some will say its the coin craze and supply and demand and you cant blame them for making money etc, but fuck that, thats just shitty excuses for nvidia being greedy bastards.
Super crazy prices for a top end gpu and now forcing companies to dump amd if they wanna play with nvidia.
I was green all the way for years and years, but they have gotten too greedy for my liking.
My 680gtx 4gb classified runs windows 10 desktop so good that I still wont be upgrading this year and if I did, no way would it be a £1000 card from nvidia.
It’s all this bullshit from nvidia that made me stop gaming on a pc. Ok some will say its the coin craze and supply and demand and you cant blame them for making money etc, but fuck that, thats just shitty excuses for nvidia being greedy bastards.
Super crazy prices for a top end gpu and now forcing companies to dump amd if they wanna play with nvidia.
I was green all the way for years and years, but they have gotten too greedy for my liking.
My 680gtx 4gb classified runs windows 10 desktop so good that I still wont be upgrading this year and if I did, no way would it be a £1000 card from nvidia.
Which is entirely different compared to AMD's Founde.... ehmm i mean "Frontiers Edition" right?
Anarchist4000
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In the objective of the cards yeah, as Frontier wasn't really marketed towards gamers or professionals. It was more a development product essentially rushed into the market as Vega seemed a bit behind schedule. As AMD is more focused on open source initiatives, it would present an easier solution to getting hardware into developers hands. For open source devs, game devs, or video/SSG devs it would present a good investment. That demographic is essentially vendor agnostic, as all brands need testing/development and bugs are to be expected.Which is entirely different compared to AMD's Founde.... ehmm i mean "Frontiers Edition" right?
Back to the hypothetical ROG / Nvidia thing.
-IMHO-
Asus has spend years and who knows how much time and effort building it's ROG reputation. To a consumer not in the Know on this looking at ASUS and seeing ROG GPUs are only brand X and all other Asus GPUs are not ROG branded sends a message that ASUS doesnt think the other brands are as good.
Most/all corporations are just dirty.
I've never understood how Apple can require it's re-sellers to only sell at a set price. Which is why you see Ipad+Gift Cert deals around Christmas. Isnt that price fixing? Yet it has been done for years. Of course Apple has more money then the US government and can afford to bribe/control politicians/law enforcement - I expect team green can too.
-IMHO-
Asus has spend years and who knows how much time and effort building it's ROG reputation. To a consumer not in the Know on this looking at ASUS and seeing ROG GPUs are only brand X and all other Asus GPUs are not ROG branded sends a message that ASUS doesnt think the other brands are as good.
Most/all corporations are just dirty.
I've never understood how Apple can require it's re-sellers to only sell at a set price. Which is why you see Ipad+Gift Cert deals around Christmas. Isnt that price fixing? Yet it has been done for years. Of course Apple has more money then the US government and can afford to bribe/control politicians/law enforcement - I expect team green can too.
Nenu
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I was looking at moving to 4K gaming now that projector prices and quality are improving.
But until this is resolved amicably I wont buy any more graphics cards.
I can last on 1080p for years with a 1080ti.
Their loss.
But until this is resolved amicably I wont buy any more graphics cards.
I can last on 1080p for years with a 1080ti.
Their loss.
wasteomind
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Its probably already been said but I'm not gonna dig through 440+ posts to comment on it. I've been pc gaming since I was like 5 playing pac man on my fathers old Digital Equipment Corp work pc (before the family got a Packard Bell!) Just gonna say I'm not impressed with Nvidia, its partners, its competitors, or the whole pc parts industry in general since mining took over. Even if this partner program wasn't another kick in the nuts to average pc gamers, the whole thing is fucked. Sky high prices on everything and these manufactures doing nothing to burst the bubble doesn't really appeal to me. I know I'm small fish compared to big spending miners, but a good way to lose customers is alienating them. Its hard enough to get just a reasonably priced video card to replace my 980 sli's. I'm sure as shit not going to go all out and spend even more ridiculous amounts of money on a GPP branded system built specifically to milk me. Not really sure what I'm going to do if my 980s die, but for the foreseeable future I'm not buying anything unless this market crashes hard. Just on principle. Either way good reporting, and eye opening. Seems these companies just cannot help themselves.
griff30
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Makes you wonder if severe price fixing is in the deck and nVidia simply blames the miners...
Putting AMD Radeon under the same umbrella and Nvidia Geforce, Nvidia feels like its diluting their BRAND, its that simple, they don't want it. It doesn't matter what you or I think, that does play into the psychology of sales. It has been proven putting something that is really good next to something not as good, and selling them together like that, diminishes the value of the better one and brings up the value of the not so good one. Look at houses and properties. If you have a million dollar house surrounded by 200k or even 500k houses, that million buck house people won't pay for it, they will pay less and it will be a sizable factor less.
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Jesus Christ Kyle, you should have your own website!
Seriously, I think you are the last of the original old school computer guys. Us greybeards know this stuff has always gone on, but if it was not for you, the kids would have no idea just how fucking evil and anti-consumer nVidia and Intel always have been. I'm not giving a free pass to AMD, but let's face it, they are never in the right position to be true evil assholes like these other two fucktard corporations.
Now kids, remember Kyle risking his fucking livelihood, the next time you watch Wannabe Captain Kirk and his fucking leather jacket that he thinks makes him look like an unpredictable rogue CEO, ponces about on stage telling you how much he loves you and all the other gamers out there, and how humble nVidia is.
Back to you now Kyle, as always sir, my hat's off to you and those big brass fucking balls you like to drop on the table from time to time. If I ever meet you in the real world, count on a cold bear or 10.
Seriously, I think you are the last of the original old school computer guys. Us greybeards know this stuff has always gone on, but if it was not for you, the kids would have no idea just how fucking evil and anti-consumer nVidia and Intel always have been. I'm not giving a free pass to AMD, but let's face it, they are never in the right position to be true evil assholes like these other two fucktard corporations.
Now kids, remember Kyle risking his fucking livelihood, the next time you watch Wannabe Captain Kirk and his fucking leather jacket that he thinks makes him look like an unpredictable rogue CEO, ponces about on stage telling you how much he loves you and all the other gamers out there, and how humble nVidia is.
Back to you now Kyle, as always sir, my hat's off to you and those big brass fucking balls you like to drop on the table from time to time. If I ever meet you in the real world, count on a cold bear or 10.
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AMD shopped for the story, they went to multiple sites and did this. It tells you one thing AMD has nothing they can do right now to stop this program, because right now there is nothing illegal going on!
There is no need for a multi billion dollar company to do it this way. Getting an injunction for something like this, the court or AMD doesn't even need to let nV know what they are doing till the injunction is in place. All AMD has to do is get enough info to show there might be something wrong going on and a Judge will sign off on it, its pretty much the time it takes to get a date to see the judge!
It would most definitely be better not to tell nV in advance something like an injunction will happen because if something illegal is going on, they can get to the information well before anything is destroyed, changed what not.
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Seriously, you're only just starting to think this?
I would love to hear your thoughts on memory prices... HDD prices, SSD prices CPU prices etc, etc...
heatlesssun
Extremely [H]
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If this is the case then AMD is in on it was well.
GoodBoy
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This is a really puzzling move on nVidia's part.. they already own the market... probably an attempt (that will either fail in courts, or they will decide to pull back from) to get back an Intel for going to AMD for the in-processor GPU.
Not really worried about AMD. All they would have to do is start making coin mining cards themselves... and mine. Those would pay for themselves in 6 to 9 months, then it's all gravy train. Or just sell to those companies that already make that hardware. Market is exploding for that.
I think the real story here is what made the relationship between nVidia and Intel get so frosty? Maybe it just made sense for Intel since the licensing was cheaper (guessing) from AMD since they weren't doing so hot when this was likely inked? Which was probably before the Ryzen dropped. Good timing on AMD's part.
I think it's bull that a company would be forced to pick, some will, some will just opt out. There's room in the market for one or 2 to just side with AMD, or simply make another LLC or Corp with a different name, and sell the AMD cards under that. Seems like these restrictions would be easy for these big companies to side-step. All they lose in that situation is their brand name/reputation. Not like a new brand couldn't be born overnight, make a great next gen AMD video card, get a few hundred out to review sites like [H], Linus, PCPer, and others, and overnight build a new brand rep. Opportunity!
Not really worried about AMD. All they would have to do is start making coin mining cards themselves... and mine. Those would pay for themselves in 6 to 9 months, then it's all gravy train. Or just sell to those companies that already make that hardware. Market is exploding for that.
I think the real story here is what made the relationship between nVidia and Intel get so frosty? Maybe it just made sense for Intel since the licensing was cheaper (guessing) from AMD since they weren't doing so hot when this was likely inked? Which was probably before the Ryzen dropped. Good timing on AMD's part.
I think it's bull that a company would be forced to pick, some will, some will just opt out. There's room in the market for one or 2 to just side with AMD, or simply make another LLC or Corp with a different name, and sell the AMD cards under that. Seems like these restrictions would be easy for these big companies to side-step. All they lose in that situation is their brand name/reputation. Not like a new brand couldn't be born overnight, make a great next gen AMD video card, get a few hundred out to review sites like [H], Linus, PCPer, and others, and overnight build a new brand rep. Opportunity!
Its doesn't matter if you think its not necessarily true, its been proven in hundreds of industries before that branding matter and the psychology of placing weaker products with stronger products matter, pricing of the those products matter as well. This is what nV feels is happening, and they want to be the "special" brand, its their product they can do so if they want to. AMD can do the same thing, but because nV has more resources they can give more benefits.
Does this sound like Gameworks vs AMD's plethora of game programs and how AMD went to websites about gameworks too?
And gameworks wasn't anti trust, doesn't matter if you like it or not or if you don't think it didn't hurt anyone or helped someone.
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But losing that brand is what hurts. It takes time to build the brand, time, resources, money, loyalty, the list goes on. This will hurt AMD (just not in the way people are saying its illegal) and that is why they went to the press instead of keeping it all under wraps and going directly in front of a judge.
Also anyone that thinks AMD didn't shop around for press, guys they did.
This is from whycry over at vcards.
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FearTheCow
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They have 70% of the market, they didn't start out there, your brand statements are bullshit.
IdiotInCharge
NVIDIA SHILL
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They got there by quite literally producing the better product.
And do note both parts of that statement: not only are their products better and have been better, they've actually produced and shipped them!
It doesn't matter what you or I think, its what nV feels like is happening.
Levi's at one point had 90% of the denim market, and they still tried to force stores to brand and promote their products the way they wanted it, it worked in some countries, it didn't in others. They didn't want to be placed next to Lee, and Britainia, they felt like those brands were knock offs of Levi's and should be put separately because they were riding the coat tails of Levi's name brand. When the prices of Lee and Britainia were less than Levi's but they looked like and functioned like Levi's putting them together hurt Levi's chances of a sale at a certain price.
You are side stepping this to try to say I don't know what I'm talking about. No it doesn't matter what I say (even though its been proven time and time again in other industries/markets). It might not even be happening in the computer, graphics card industry but its what nV feels about their brand and what is happening to it with other companies selling their brand.
Nvidia thinks they have more brand value than AMD right now and this is why they are doing this.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/steveo...s-finally-and-how-to-control-it/#755e6c2713b2
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I would suspect the minute they put the word Game(s) into anything with Intel, AMD or any possible new player product into a marketing name they would be in violation.
So its more like Asus would be allowed to sell NV only in ROG or any other "gaming" line they release. Asus can sell ATI product however they would have to use names like A80 / ATI99 / ATI CRAP TAPULAR NOT FOR YOU G*ME*S but for regular non fantastical machines 9000. Or any other marketing name NOT using the word gamer(s). Perhaps they could get away with ATI "ultra performance" or something. Its a pretty dirty contractual marketing lock in.
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Somehow I missed this article until today. Thanks for bringing this stuff to light Kyle. Many would just shake their head and ignore... NV is THE gaming GPU company right now and have been for awhile. That simple fact would keep most guy lips publicly sealed even if it bothered the hell out of them. My respect, knowing you will always speak the truth as you see it is what makes [H] the best damn tech site on the internet. Every long time [H] reader knows your reviews are always no BS, honest and most importantly fair. Thanks.
heatlesssun
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And this is a clear 1st Amendment issue. AMD comes out with the RX 600 or whatever for gaming, creates a marketing package with demos, benchmarks, etc. about gaming. But AMD partners that are also GPP members can in no way use the materials from AMD to talk about the RX 600's gaming capabilities? Totally and complete unenforceable and a clear 1st Amendment problem that's beyond obvious. Unless those GPP partners signed an agreement that SPECIALLY said they can't use AMD marketing and then that gets more into anti-trust.