Portuguese ISP Shows Us What the Net Looks like without Net Neutrality

Megalith

Megalith

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Net Neutrality activists have warned that a non-neutral internet will be an invitation for ISPs to create "plans" where you have to choose what services you can access, and we can look to Portugal for an immediate sampling of what will happen if the FCC gets its way: Portuguese ISP MEO is offering a series of plans for its mobile data service where you pay 5 euro ($5.80) to access a handful of messaging services, 5 euro more to use social media, and 5 euro more for video-streaming services.
 
image.axd

So a subscription to use your subscription service to use your subscription service.


Just in case their page changes... Here's a screenshot. It's also translated into English.

meo.jpg
 
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Sounds to me that if this is successful, people would want to select a la carte services on the cheap.
 
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Gigus Fire said:
Sounds to me that if this is successful, people would want to select a la carte services on the cheap.
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It looks to be a highly firewalled service where everything is denied except for certain services. How else would they be able to control you using a certain service? So you wouldn't be able to use round-about ways to circumvent them.
 
I'm not clear how this works. Do you pay for Data buckets and these things, or do you just pay for these features? Either way, it looks very expensive compared to other services in the EU, where 20 bucks buys you 7-10 GB of data and 30 gets you 30GB. I have seen some where you can get a plan and then pay 5 Euro to get unlimted audio streaming. Such a system may lower your bill if it allows you to buy a plan with a smaller data bucket. It wouldn't work for me, since I have many GB of music on my phone and if i'm in Europe, I'm only there for a week or 2, so 7GB is plenty even if I streamed a ton of music
 
nilepez said:
I'm not clear how this works. ...
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Most likely they, on the ISP's side, deny all traffic to your device. But then they allow specific IPs to filter through based on whatever plan you select . But as far as the tank of data (5gb) goes, it's probably shared between all of the allowed services.

For example: Facebook owns these IP address ranges:
66.220.144.0 - 66.220.159.255
69.63.176.0 - 69.63.191.255
204.15.20.0 - 204.15.23.255

All you'd need to do is set the firewall to only allow these ranges and whatever IP addresses for the other services you want to permit.
 
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RogueTadhg said:
Most likely they, on the ISP's side, deny all traffic to your device. But then they allow specific IPs to filter through based on whatever plan you select . But as far as the tank of data (5gb) goes, it's probably shared between all of the allowed services.

For example: Facebook owns these IP address ranges:
66.220.144.0 - 66.220.159.255
69.63.176.0 - 69.63.191.255
204.15.20.0 - 204.15.23.255

All you'd need to do is set the firewall to only allow these ranges and whatever IP addresses for the other services you want to permit.
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Maybe, but maybe it's a case where video streaming is unlimited if you pay roughly 5 euro. I mean it doesn't make sense if this is super expensive, because you can buy a plan in London for 15 Pounds (about 20 bucks) and that plan is good all over europe. If I go to Portugal, I can simply add money to my account and BOOM I've got service. This won't be successful if they're charging a lot more than carriers in other EU countries.
 
Surprised they don't mix some of the services...

If you get twitter we will throw in myspace.com for free!!!!
 
nilepez said:
Maybe, but maybe it's a case where video streaming is unlimited if you pay roughly 5 euro. I mean it doesn't make sense if this is super expensive, because you can buy a plan in London for 15 Pounds (about 20 bucks) and that plan is good all over europe. If I go to Portugal, I can simply add money to my account and BOOM I've got service. This won't be successful if they're charging a lot more than carriers in other EU countries.
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I was thinking about the plan from a US carrier point of view.
 
They've forgotten another cash cow.

The manufacturer of the cell phone could rent you the O/S and apps, too. You don't actually own the phone, you are licensed to use it and must abide by the heavily restricted contract.

Might as well go full bananas.
 
RogueTadhg said:
I was thinking about the plan from a US carrier point of view.
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Ah...well I can't say in that case, but honestly, prices are so much more here than most places I've traveled (spanning 3 continents), I don't see how we can get much worse. That said, I think most people in other countries buy their phones out right. We've kinda sorta got that here, but we don't get the huge savings that they get there. I mean if I paid 20/month for a phone there, I'd still pay less than my sprint plan, and I only pay 55/month
 
i don't think this is entirely correct, they are not making you choose the services you can access as these are extra gb/data packages for some specific apps. i think meo is one of the worst isp's here anyway i'm not defending them as i'm not even their costumer.

My isp is vodafone portugal and i pay about 16€/month (it's actually 3,99€ every week) for 15000m of voice/sms (mobile and landlines, 10000m for same network numbers / 5000m for other networks) + 5gb of base internet access (4g up to 300mb/s) + 5gb of youtube/twitch specific traffic. There are also about 15 other apps that have "free" traffic, as in the traffic they generate does not count to the 5gb base. Spotify premium access is included also which makes this a nice deal for me

I have no idea how this compares to the offers in the US, can someone enlighten me please? just out of curiosity. thanks.
 
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The way it was when I was shopping for plans and still shop around...

Everything gets thrown into a giant vat of data. Whatever you use, uses that data plan. If you use 5 GB of Spotify, you've used 5 GB of your vat. Facebook, Apps, etc, all gets thrown into that vat.
 
glutto said:
They've forgotten another cash cow.

The manufacturer of the cell phone could rent you the O/S and apps, too. You don't actually own the phone, you are licensed to use it and must abide by the heavily restricted contract.

Might as well go full bananas.
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They're already starting to do this. Right now its just ads everywhere for Amazon Prime subscribers on discounted phones. Next, if people allow the adware phone to sell good, it's what you're suggesting.

https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/10/26/16552414/lg-amazon-prime-phone-discount-ads-g6
 
MaD_mAnIaC said:
My isp is vodafone portugal and i get 5gb of base internet access (4g up to 300mb/s) + 5gb of youtube/twitch specific traffic. There are also about 15 other apps that have "free" traffic, as in the traffic they generate does not count to the 5gb base. Spotify premium access is included also which makes this a nice deal for me

I have no idea how this compares to the offers in the US, can someone enlighten me please? just out of curiosity. thanks.
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This plan would be illegal under Net Neutrailty. The red parts would be.
 
scan13 said:
This will end the internet as we know it. Hope the NN critics will look at it and finally realize that they were wrong... Not likely though.
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The problem is that a large number of Net Neutrality critics are connected to companies who would profit from no NN or have been bought/bribed by those companies.
 
So this doesn’t look as bad as it sounds if I’m reading that page right. It looks like you pay 5 euro a month for one of those content packages and then you get unlimited access to it.

Or , you pay a normal price for full data access.

This is what that screen cap looks like to me.
 
Mchart said:
So this doesn’t look as bad as it sounds if I’m reading that page right. It looks like you pay 5 euro a month for one of those content packages and then you get unlimited access to it.
Or , you pay a normal price for full data access.
This is what that screen cap looks like to me.
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That's my take as well. Essentially, you get unlimited for things you select or you just use your bucket. The only reason I'd think that violates net neutrality is that it only covers select providers. Thus, if this was in the U.S. (and nothing changed), Netflix would have an advantage over HBO, Starz and Hulu.
 
It's all about that monthly payment. Same reason colleges have all the useless majors - get in on that monthly payment even if you're too dumb for real college courses.
 
Mchart said:
So this doesn’t look as bad as it sounds if I’m reading that page right. It looks like you pay 5 euro a month for one of those content packages and then you get unlimited access to it.

Or , you pay a normal price for full data access.

This is what that screen cap looks like to me.
Click to expand...

Just above the top of that translated screen cap it says "Offer of the 1st month of a Smart Net with 10GB / month additional (1)" so I assume its not unlimited.
 
nilepez said:
That's my take as well. Essentially, you get unlimited for things you select or you just use your bucket. The only reason I'd think that violates net neutrality is that it only covers select providers. Thus, if this was in the U.S. (and nothing changed), Netflix would have an advantage over HBO, Starz and Hulu.
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that's the thing.

if they can offer unlimited on a handful of services why not all services?

what's the difference? data is data isnt' it?
 
nilepez said:
That's my take as well. Essentially, you get unlimited for things you select or you just use your bucket. The only reason I'd think that violates net neutrality is that it only covers select providers. Thus, if this was in the U.S. (and nothing changed), Netflix would have an advantage over HBO, Starz and Hulu.
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Or any other "smaller" service. This is THE problem. Let's say you use different email than gmail, yahoo, apple or whoever payed your provider, using it counts against your "precious" 5GB. At some point you start wondering if it wouldn't be smarter to just switch to one of the "free" services. This is where small business and ultimately you lose.
 
westrock2000 said:
This plan would be illegal under Net Neutrailty. The red parts would be.
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T-mobile currently has something like this already in the US. Audio and video apps don't count towards caps.
If you have a favorite service, you just submit it to them.
If you don't like it, you can opt out. It's really not a bad deal.
 
So without net neutrality you get 10 gigs for around 30 bucks?
And with net neutrality I only have to pay 60 bucks for 6 gigs? Soooo... what’s the downside again?
 
On the flip side, this might be the best new USPS has received in over a decade, people might start learning penmanship and write a fucking letter or two.
 
It's (unfortunately) the next logical step for them here in the States once they can do it. With the ISPs - who also own traditional TV methods - they're going to want to replace their ever shrinking TVsub revenue.

That'll be with data caps, higher priced packages, and restrictive packaging like this. They're not going to just surrender the TV market.

Most likely they won't just outright block Netflix (etc), instead they'll choke it to 480p or create restrictive (low) data caps. Then they'll offer you to pay for the "service bundles" so certain services don't count against your cap. If you pay for the "all inclusive" package for $129/mo, you'll get what you're paying $59/mo for now.
 
mygreeneggsandham said:
So without net neutrality you get 10 gigs for around 30 bucks?
And with net neutrality I only have to pay 60 bucks for 6 gigs? Soooo... what’s the downside again?
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10 gigs for 30 bucks is pretty high in the EU. You'd probably get closer to 30GB for that price. You'd get 7-10 for around 20 bucks.

The prices in the U.S. are not because of Net Neutrality. We've had some of the highest MRCs for decades.
 
Mchart said:
So this doesn’t look as bad as it sounds if I’m reading that page right. It looks like you pay 5 euro a month for one of those content packages and then you get unlimited access to it.

Or , you pay a normal price for full data access.

This is what that screen cap looks like to me.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but trying to make it illegal for someone to buy services the whiners wouldn't personally purchase is all the rage in tech these days.
 
Its like Sky running the internet.
That would be Skynet ...
[runs screaming]
 
westrock2000 said:
You could also look at the Internet in the USA for the last 30 years if you wanted to see Internet without "net neutrality".

Just saying.
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I think so many people forget this. And people don't look or consider other factors when looking at other countries and NEVER get the full picture. Just like in the US, ISP choices are so few due to ROW restrictions BY GOVERNMENT. Yay for regulator capture!

Local government: It's not a monopoly, there is no law stopping others from servicing these areas.

New ISP: We want to install new service lines in this area

Local government: NO!
 
westrock2000 said:
You could also look at the Internet in the USA for the last 30 years if you wanted to see Internet without "net neutrality".

Just saying.
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I think that is only partly true.
A form of NN was happening basically by default due to technical limitations, namely no packet sniffing; plus only a relatively recent trend that internet services like video or music streaming are becoming more and more important.
 
BlueFireIce said:
I think so many people forget this. And people don't look or consider other factors when looking at other countries and NEVER get the full picture. Just like in the US, ISP choices are so few due to ROW restrictions BY GOVERNMENT. Yay for regulator capture!

Local government: It's not a monopoly, there is no law stopping others from servicing these areas.

New ISP: We want to install new service lines in this area

Local government: NO!
Click to expand...

Net neutrality is a fix specific to our market, because it wasn't politically possible to do the ideal thing which is mandate line sharing so any ISP can offer service over a provider's "dumb" pipe. If you have line sharing then you don't necessarily need NN anymore, because then the free market would sort itself out, people would switch to a better service out of a hundred choices if they didn't like their current provider.

As is, you get the choice of one or two providers per area in our market because the last mile is not shared, so the ISP owning it can do what it pleases, NN tries to keep them in check. It's better than the "nothing" alternative.

One hopes this monopoly problem is not going to be one of the "crony-capitalist" curses the next generation has to bear as well, but odds are against them thanks to their parents.
 
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scan13 said:
Or any other "smaller" service. This is THE problem. Let's say you use different email than gmail, yahoo, apple or whoever payed your provider, using it counts against your "precious" 5GB. At some point you start wondering if it wouldn't be smarter to just switch to one of the "free" services. This is where small business and ultimately you lose.
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Exactly.. NN arguments really start boiling down to very typical sides of the short-sighted people, and the longer-sighted people.. Companies and government corruption work very well together in screwing people over when there are such divisions.
That's what's coming to home ISPs with the FCC eliminating NN as they will soon, most likely December.
Google's and the like better watch out, or become ISPs themselves.. they might be above being fucked-over for a while, they better know it wont be forever, if NN goes away, big internet-dependent companies will basically have a noose around their necks, its just the ISPs choice how tight its going to be.
Customer's noose of course will be tighten much faster.
 
If this is true, why hasn't it happened up until now? Baseless fear mongering by HardOCP's resident snowflake leftist.
 
Uvaman2 said:
I think that is only partly true.
A form of NN was happening basically by default due to technical limitations, namely no packet sniffing; plus only a relatively recent trend that internet services like video or music streaming are becoming more and more important.
Click to expand...

Do you think AOL as it was 20 years ago would be considered anti Net Neutrality today?
 
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