Some bad news

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razor1 said:
Yes yes yes, and everything we have see how RTG has done with Vega and Polaris, have been tip top the best right?

We all can see how RTG fucked up form the start and it all starts with a bad architecture. Its very doubtful they want to step away from the high end again? Its going to happen just like what happened after the r600, but this time its worse they have even less market share, if you remember with the r600 and phenom processors (soon to be BD) how much AMD was in the red? Even though with the r600 line up they still had 35% market share....... And anyone thinking their CPU division will hold up the R&D for their GPU division keep dreaming, cause they still need to focus on Zen + and Zen 2.

What do you expect them to do when they have less GPU market share now and Vega costs more to make than the r600?

Lets throw logic out the window and just talk about the guy posting right?

I don't even care if the guy made this stuff up, you know why? Cause its fuckin logical and we can see how AMD has changed direction last month.

Still waiting on those 399 and 499 standalone cards.

What did I say about those?

Not going to come back?

What did Gibbo say?

limited launch rebates for stand alone products and special e-tailers? We have seen the pack deals come and go out of stock but none of the stand alone cards...... Why is it because the stand alone cards are just not allocated? Too much demand, prices have stabilized on the pack cards, so its not demand that is causing anything anymore.....

How many people here said it was purely a supply issue that AMD can't make enough cards?

No they can make the cards, they just don't want to. They are making no money at those prices with Vega, they want to sell them at the pack prices but can't as a stand alone product.

Too many things have pointed to this.

Even if the packaging was a problem for AIB's, why the hell didn't they have a GPU to design their boards till just a couple of months or three ago?

Does that even make sense?

You would think AMD would get sample Vega's in AIB partners hands 6 months ago or a year ago right?

Everything they have done, has been focused on one thing, "lets not sell Vega in consumer products"

Back to the packaging, did Fiji have the same packaging issues?

I don't remember AIB's complaining about Fury custom cards and its packaging?

BTW the software dev team will need to know what the hardware teams are working on, they need to plan for who will be doing what in the future too, its not like one day they come it and all of sudden they have to stop working on one project and go to something else. There will be meetings with higher ups talking about which teams and who will be one the teams and why they are changing direction. Having said that they just won't be told till later on after the hardware team already shifted their focus.

keep this in mind how much money and effort nV put into their software team and reduced their hardware teams spending after the launch of the FX? They shifted all their focus to their next gen chip and left a skeleton crew for the FX refresh. And they did a butt load of software team spending. Cause that is all they can do.

And now the kicker

Does anyone here want to see AMD/RTG keep going down the road they have been since GCN's first chip?

Lets have a show of hands here people.........
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I especially like the "I don't care if he made it up" part. Puts everything else in perspective.

Rvenger said:
Raja should have scrapped Polaris and Vega and focused on Navi and had a "Ryzen" moment when the time was right. I wouldn't be surprised if RTG is dissolved and sold at this point.
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Because they don't need GPU's anymore?
 
razor1 said:
Yes yes yes, and everything we have see how RTG has done with Vega and Polaris, have been tip top the best right?

We all can see how RTG fucked up from the start and it all starts with a bad architecture. Its very doubtful they want to step away from the high end again? Its going to happen just like what happened after the r600, but this time its worse they have even less market share, if you remember with the r600 and phenom processors (soon to be BD) how much AMD was in the red? Even though with the r600 line up they still had 35% market share....... And anyone thinking their CPU division will hold up the R&D for their GPU division keep dreaming, cause they still need to focus on Zen + and Zen 2.

What do you expect them to do when they have less GPU market share now and Vega costs more to make than the r600?

Lets throw logic out the window and just talk about the guy posting right?

I don't even care if the guy made this stuff up, you know why? Cause its fuckin logical and we can see how AMD has changed direction last month.

Still waiting on those 399 and 499 standalone cards.

What did I say about those?

Not going to come back?

What did Gibbo say?

limited launch rebates for stand alone products and special e-tailers? We have seen the pack deals come and go out of stock but none of the stand alone cards...... Why is it because the stand alone cards are just not allocated? Too much demand, prices have stabilized on the pack cards, so its not demand that is causing anything anymore.....

How many people here said it was purely a supply issue that AMD can't make enough cards?

No they can make the cards, they just don't want to. They are making no money at those prices with Vega, they want to sell them at the pack prices but can't as a stand alone product.

Too many things have pointed to this.

Even if the packaging was a problem for AIB's, why the hell didn't they have a GPU to design their boards till just a couple of months or three ago?

Does that even make sense?

You would think AMD would get sample Vega's in AIB partners hands 6 months ago or a year ago right?

Everything they have done, has been focused on one thing, "lets not sell Vega in consumer products"

Back to the packaging, did Fiji have the same packaging issues?

I don't remember AIB's complaining about Fury custom cards and its packaging?

BTW the software dev team will need to know what the hardware teams are working on, they need to plan for who will be doing what in the future too, its not like one day they come it and all of sudden they have to stop working on one project and go to something else. There will be meetings with higher ups talking about which teams and who will be one the teams and why they are changing direction. Having said that they just won't be told till later on after the hardware team already shifted their focus.

keep this in mind how much money and effort nV put into their software team and reduced their hardware teams spending after the launch of the FX? They shifted all their focus to their next gen chip and left a skeleton crew for the FX refresh. And they did a butt load of software team spending. Cause that is all they can do.

And now the kicker

Does anyone here want to see AMD/RTG keep going down the road they have been since GCN's first chip?

Lets have a show of hands here people.........
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Just goto Anandtech all the people in the know are on those forums that is for sure ....
 
Relayer said:
I especially like the "I don't care if he made it up" part. Puts everything else in perspective.


Because they don't need GPU's anymore?
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They need the graphics IP part man, that is the only edge they have against Intel, we can see that a 6 core Coffee Lake puts a hurt on 8 core Zen, yeah its clocks and IPC but still, it keeps up with it and bests it in most tests even multithreaded! If Zen + is 2nd half of 2018 and we know Intel is coming with 10nm 8 core chips 2nd half of next year too. So again a process disadvantage. So Zen + must be able to get its IPC up to Intel's current parts, and Intel must get their SMT efficiency up to Zen's SMT performance. But that process advantage will still remain on Intel sides....... What we are seeing right now Coffee Lake has 30% advantage when it comes to per core per thread performance, that is not a small gap. Multithreaded is on AMD's side but only by 5% a much smaller gap with Coffee lake's reworked cache structure.
 
All this doom and gloom re. vega and not performing and mine smashed through hellblade, titanfall 2 and doom sans issue at max settings :eek:

Really, consumer vega should have just been vega 56 at 64 clocks @ $449 ala hd4870. Would have been closer to 230-250 watt tdp and would have kept up close enough to a 1080.
 
There's an awful lot of standalone cards in stock if OP's story was true.

IMG_3675.PNG
 
Regardless if this is true or not, it's very clear there is a dark cloud over the recent launch of these 2 cards. In fact, a storm brewing would be more fitting.

Performance a year behind, cost issues, manufacturing issues, availability issues, so on so forth. The most compelling factor is market longevity. When you bring a product to market that's outdated it doesn't exactly have a long shelf life. So there is no real future in these 2 cards.

Let's hope AMD can get out of this asap and bring something else to market quickly.
 
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Vega 11 is the higher volume part or will be. Hopefully HBM2 availability and price will improve.
 
_mockingbird said:
I can neither deny nor confirm
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Even if what you said is true (which I honestly don't believe) It could be tainted or intentionally leaked information. As it stands and without more circumstantial evidence to either prove or disprove you? This is all just a rumor and will be treated as such.
 
SixFootDuo said:
Regardless if this is true or not, it's very clear there is a dark cloud over the recent launch of these 2 cards. In fact, a storm brewing would be more fitting.

Performance a year behind, cost issues, manufacturing issues, availability issues, so on so forth. The most compelling factor is market longevity. When you bring a product to market that's outdated it doesn't exactly have a long shelf life. So there is no real future in these 2 cards.

Let's hope AMD can get out of this asap and bring something else to market quickly.
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I don't know man. My air cooled Vega 64 that I paid $499 for at launch runs everything smooth as butter. I still have my EKWB sitting in the box because I have been too busy grinning from ear to ear with the performance boost over my old card. To be exact I think I will wait for a few more parts for my case mod to get here before I bother with it. That's how happy I am with my card.

The fans on my 240mm and 120mm are a helluva lot louder than the fans on my Vega 64. Now if I OC it then.... Ha ha!
 
I'd have to agree. I'm happy with Vega. I have 2 RX 64's and in Crossfire and I'm getting way better performance than the single 1080 Ti I had in the machine briefly (provided CF support in the game). Sure, the cards were not cheap, but the performance has been great.
 
cageymaru said:
I don't know man. My air cooled Vega 64 that I paid $499 for at launch runs everything smooth as butter. I still have my EKWB sitting in the box because I have been too busy grinning from ear to ear with the performance boost over my old card. To be exact I think I will wait for a few more parts for my case mod to get here before I bother with it. That's how happy I am with my card.

The fans on my 240mm and 120mm are a helluva lot louder than the fans on my Vega 64. Now if I OC it then.... Ha ha!
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And anyone else who might be interested in replicating your experience can do so for a minimum of $650 per an earlier post...

That buck fifty sure colors the whole thing.
 
godihatework said:
And anyone else who might be interested in replicating your experience can do so for a minimum of $650 per an earlier post...

That buck fifty sure colors the whole thing.
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Hey man. I can only relay what I paid and what my experience was. Convince consumers to stop buying them like crack and the price will drop. Warehouse space is at a premium across the world. Nobody is going to hold stock on an item at an over MSRP price without someone having an interest in it. Even if we pretend that the retail price has changed and they aren't currently selling, then NewEgg would have discounted and kicked them off their shelves long ago.
 
cageymaru said:
Hey man. I can only relay what I paid and what my experience was. Convince consumers to stop buying them like crack and the price will drop. Warehouse space is at a premium across the world. Nobody is going to hold stock on an item at an over MSRP price without someone having an interest in it. Even if we pretend that the retail price has changed and they aren't currently selling, then NewEgg would have discounted and kicked them off their shelves long ago.
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You're only accounting for demand in your assumption here. It is equally as likely that supply is the root cause of the 30% increase in price that we are seeing...as noted in the OP.

Or, folks could buy a 1080 for $509 and get an arguably better experience:

http://www.nowinstock.net/computers/videocards/nvidia/gtx1080/
 
While I love Vega, I couldn't advise someone to buy it over a GTX 1080 with the price difference. If they were the same price, that would be a different story, but that's not the case right now (or ever if the OP is to be believed).
 
cybereality said:
While I love Vega, I couldn't advise someone to buy it over a GTX 1080 with the price difference. If they were the same price, that would be a different story, but that's not the case right now (or ever if the OP is to be believed).
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Yeah at its current prices neither Vega is a good buy over a 1080, but if they really like freesync and already have that monitor already its can be worth it for them

and what is with the Asus turbo versions of their cards, plastic crap.
 
razor1 said:
Yeah at its current prices neither Vega is a good buy over a 1080, but if they really like freesync and already have that monitor already its can be worth it for them

and what is with the Asus turbo versions of their cards, plastic crap.
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If you don't have a Freesync monitor, its a wash as of now. Also I wouldn't fork out the bread on a part that we don't know will continue to have support. Even if they didn't/don't halt production, I doubt RTG is going to be around much longer in its current form.
 
Sodapopjones said:
If you don't have a Freesync monitor, its a wash as of now. Also I wouldn't fork out the bread on a part that we don't know will continue to have support. Even if they didn't/don't halt production, I doubt RTG is going to be around much longer in its current form.
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They will still support it, they have no choice, Vega, GCN 1.4, is going to be around till the end of 2018.
 
godihatework said:
You're only accounting for demand in your assumption here. It is equally as likely that supply is the root cause of the 30% increase in price that we are seeing...as noted in the OP.

Or, folks could buy a 1080 for $509 and get an arguably better experience:

http://www.nowinstock.net/computers/videocards/nvidia/gtx1080/
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You aren't accounting for the point he made. If they aren't selling then the price would have to go down, simple economics. So to his point, don't buy them till they do and they must be selling somewhat as the price has not decreased.

And your last line has a key word... ARGUABLY, as in there is always an argument to the positive and negative.
 
JustReason said:
You aren't accounting for the point he made. If they aren't selling then the price would have to go down, simple economics. So to his point, don't buy them till they do and they must be selling somewhat as the price has not decreased.

And your last line has a key word... ARGUABLY, as in there is always an argument to the positive and negative.
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No there is a base line that the price will not go lower than, which is what the retail company bought it for. It will not go lower than that point unless they are well aware they can't sell it for that price, that will only happen with a new generation of cards come out or stock they can't get rid of, which happens but rarely, that is why they have variable ordering, a good product acquisition manager, should be able to understand how much demand for a product there is and how many units they should be procuring, otherwise they run the business to the ground.

One of the laws of economics is based on supply and demand, but base line costs are not changed because of supply and demand.

Still have to factor in the cost of vram too, that will affect the cost of the graphics cards. Its project by end of this year ram prices will again increase by 40%, from last year to now its already increased 100%. How would supply and demand affect cost of making a product? It can't. How will supply and demand change the cost to retailers? It can't. The only one that can influence cost are AIB partners and AMD themselves, or the end consumer by increased demand. That will then increase demand from retailers and then to the AIB partners than to AMD.

AIB partners have control over cost up to a certain point, based on product differentiation. AMD ultimately has control over the whole market of their product from supply. They can influence their product price if demand is there, by constraining or increasing supply.

That is simple economics.
 
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JustReason said:
You aren't accounting for the point he made. If they aren't selling then the price would have to go down, simple economics. So to his point, don't buy them till they do and they must be selling somewhat as the price has not decreased.

And your last line has a key word... ARGUABLY, as in there is always an argument to the positive and negative.
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Nope.

If I'm a retailer I'm not selling for a loss, regardless of anything else.

So. If the price was being driven by such high demand - why are there cards available at all?

These prices are being driven by cost of acquisition, not by slavering hordes of consumers who simply cannot wait to be gouged for the privilege of owning a RX Vega.

And I put arguably in my statement because I don't feel like having that argument. It's pretty clear that a 1080 at $140 less is the better experience.
 
razor1 said:
No there is a base line that the price will not go lower than, which is what the retail company bought it for. It will not go lower than that point unless they are well aware they can't sell it for that price, that will only happen with a new generation of cards come out or stock they can't get rid of, which happens but rarely, that is why they have variable ordering, a good product acquisition manager, should be able to understand how much demand for a product there is and how many units they should be procuring, otherwise they run the business to the ground.
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That actually happened recently.

In Dec '16/Jan '17, Newegg was putting Radeon R9 Fury and Radeon R9 Fury X on fire sale.

Radeon R9 Fury and Radeon R9 Fury X were selling for $240 and $300 respectively.
 
Putting tin foil hats aside, Vega 11 is supposedly in production - early 2018 release. Enhanced Vega using 14nm++ renamed 12nm about the same time. So production of current Vega's will have a stop date since this is already October sometime before the newer version comes out. Reminds me of the FX 5800 back when before the FX 5900 and then the usable FX 5950. Hmmm, I may own a very rare card which in a hundred years might be worth something :sneaky:.

If the news is even somewhat accurate - not saying it isn't or is - I know how word of mouth gets distorted in an organization which then goes to an outsider which - well you get the drift. Could be very good news as in a better version will be coming out before Volta even hits the pavement next year. o_O
 
godihatework said:
You're only accounting for demand in your assumption here. It is equally as likely that supply is the root cause of the 30% increase in price that we are seeing...as noted in the OP.

Or, folks could buy a 1080 for $509 and get an arguably better experience:

http://www.nowinstock.net/computers/videocards/nvidia/gtx1080/
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Why would companies intentionally jack the price up, fail to sell them at the inflated price, and maintain inventory of a supposedly failed product when warehouse space is at a premium. That makes zero sense at all unless the Nvidia cards are sitting on the shelves and not selling also? As far as I can tell PC sales in general are up across the board since Ryzen launched and many more holdouts from the past 5 years upgraded their systems.

I think you'll are forgetting the stories of miners in China that were literally pulling up to the GPU manufacturer's doors with trucks and loading up everything that comes off the assembly lines. Russia is getting into the coin mining business. If I had something on my shelves that NOBODY wanted, it surely wouldn't be jacked up in price. That just doesn't make sense at all. Why would EKWB develop a water block for the thing? The Chinese company Bykski developed a water block for the VEGA also. Why would Asus send out a Strix card for review if the regular VEGA cards were sitting stagnant on store shelves? To see how much warehouse space they can waste at NewEgg? Why is Gigabyte launching a custom Vega 64 later this month? To run Amazon out of business?

I think your thought process is flawed honestly. Neither of these cards looks like cheap plastic crap to me. If these are crap then the entire Nvidia lineup is crap too! :)


Asus Strix
P_setting_000_1_90_end_500.png


Gigabyte Vega

gigabyte-radeon-r9-fury-4gb.jpg
 
godihatework said:
You mean all the PR reps and stock pumpers over there?
Yeah, no. AT AMD VC forum is a wretched hive of scum and villany.
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I don't mind what they got over there that is not my problem what my problem is that the people post things as truth make up a source then treat it as if all of it is real.
So unless you have multiple sources {not the one from Anandtech} you have someone talking out of his/her ass in this forum based on what the cry babies in AT forums make up.
SixFootDuo said:
Regardless if this is true or not
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A lot of drama based on what exactly ? Let's all make up shit pretend it is real tag on all the cliché's for good measure..
 
cageymaru said:
Why would companies intentionally jack the price up, fail to sell them at the inflated price, and maintain inventory of a supposedly failed product when warehouse space is at a premium. That makes zero sense at all unless the Nvidia cards are sitting on the shelves and not selling also? As far as I can tell PC sales in general are up across the board since Ryzen launched and many more holdouts from the past 5 years upgraded their systems.

I think you'll are forgetting the stories of miners in China that were literally pulling up to the GPU manufacturer's doors with trucks and loading up everything that comes off the assembly lines. Russia is getting into the coin mining business. If I had something on my shelves that NOBODY wanted, it surely wouldn't be jacked up in price. That just doesn't make sense at all. Why would EKWB develop a water block for the thing? The Chinese company Bykski developed a water block for the VEGA also. Why would Asus send out a Strix card for review if the regular VEGA cards were sitting stagnant on store shelves? To see how much warehouse space they can waste at NewEgg? Why is Gigabyte launching a custom Vega 64 later this month? To run Amazon out of business?

I think your thought process is flawed honestly. Neither of these cards looks like cheap plastic crap to me. If these are crap then the entire Nvidia lineup is crap too! :)


Asus Strix
P_setting_000_1_90_end_500.png


Gigabyte Vega

gigabyte-radeon-r9-fury-4gb.jpg
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1: Ryzen has jack all to do with RX Vega
2: I'm not the one who said these cards looked like "plastic crap" so check yourself
3: Sunk cost is a thing, that's why a company will sell what they have committed to at an inflated price - they have to recover anything they can in order to move forward
4: I'm pretty tired of the "mining will save AMD" memes that get thrown about here (and elsewhere). Mining hurts AMD as soon as the next hash king comes out and these orgs flood the market with their obsolete stock.
5: You still haven't explained how if demand is driving these costs there are cards available to be bought
 
Guys, relax RTG will be around and support will continue. AMD will come out with cut down versions of VEGA 64-56-36 etc. It will be position to be slightly faster than 580. I doubt anyone who works for AMD software dpt. as stated by the OP has any info on what is next. Vega will continue. It will be shrunk to 10 - 7 nm and after that Navi will come out. Anyone wants to talk about how NVidia increased prices on the memory they are using.?
This post is a classic example of what the usual suspects here have to say. AMD is bad AMD will sink all the usual shit. I know someone who works for Nvidia and it appears NVidia will stop making GPU's.
Their focus will shift completely to making time machines.This will allow all of the Nvidia lovers to have the fastest and most power efficient GPU's from the future...lol What do you think about that :D The OP needs to stop drinking that funny color koolaid. :)
 
godihatework said:
1: Ryzen has jack all to do with RX Vega
2: I'm not the one who said these cards looked like "plastic crap" so check yourself
3: Sunk cost is a thing, that's why a company will sell what they have committed to at an inflated price - they have to recover anything they can in order to move forward
4: I'm pretty tired of the "mining will save AMD" memes that get thrown about here (and elsewhere). Mining hurts AMD as soon as the next hash king comes out and these orgs flood the market with their obsolete stock.
5: You still haven't explained how if demand is driving these costs there are cards available to be bought
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Actually he does not have to explain anything he can refer to sources (should this be plural?) on Anandtech.
 
godihatework said:
Nope.

If I'm a retailer I'm not selling for a loss, regardless of anything else.
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Then it is obvious you are not, and have never been, a retailer. Either that, or your principal to refuse to sell at a loss for any reason has caused you to go out of business due to too much stagnant inventory killing your bottom line at tax time.
 
jardows said:
Then it is obvious you are not, and have never been, a retailer. Either that, or your principal to refuse to sell at a loss for any reason has caused you to go out of business due to too much stagnant inventory killing your bottom line at tax time.
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Move goalposts much?

I think a plain reading of my statement makes it clear that I am referring to RX Vega - a product which has been out for less than 60 days. Additionally, if the supply shortage is accurate (and I'm pretty sure it is) those two or three cards I do have in stock aren't really much of an opportunity cost from a shelf space perspective - especially if I'm an etailer who has literally zero physical shelf space to manage.
 
cageymaru said:
Why would companies intentionally jack the price up, fail to sell them at the inflated price, and maintain inventory of a supposedly failed product when warehouse space is at a premium. That makes zero sense at all unless the Nvidia cards are sitting on the shelves and not selling also? As far as I can tell PC sales in general are up across the board since Ryzen launched and many more holdouts from the past 5 years upgraded their systems.

I think you'll are forgetting the stories of miners in China that were literally pulling up to the GPU manufacturer's doors with trucks and loading up everything that comes off the assembly lines. Russia is getting into the coin mining business. If I had something on my shelves that NOBODY wanted, it surely wouldn't be jacked up in price. That just doesn't make sense at all. Why would EKWB develop a water block for the thing? The Chinese company Bykski developed a water block for the VEGA also. Why would Asus send out a Strix card for review if the regular VEGA cards were sitting stagnant on store shelves? To see how much warehouse space they can waste at NewEgg? Why is Gigabyte launching a custom Vega 64 later this month? To run Amazon out of business?

I think your thought process is flawed honestly. Neither of these cards looks like cheap plastic crap to me. If these are crap then the entire Nvidia lineup is crap too! :)


Asus Strix
P_setting_000_1_90_end_500.png


Gigabyte Vega

gigabyte-radeon-r9-fury-4gb.jpg
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Not sure why you think I said all AMD cards look like crap, I stated all Asus Turbo cards (that specific line of Asus cards) look like crap.....

Now the rest of it, nope Cagey. The price hike or package sku prices, has nothing to do with demand. I can get a Vega 56 or 64 easily now, demand isn't there. Do you remember how long it took the 1070 to show up on steam? 1 month. Still no Vega. And demand for the 1070's was much much higher than it is for Vega. And in that month 2 weeks were cut off from launch to actual retail availability.

Ask anyone at your local mom and pop store, or Best buy, ask them if their is so much demand they can't keep them on selves.

Unlike the 1070's, and 1080's which miners are buying by the handful, Vega is fairly easy to get. I can't special order over 5 cards for those two nV cards right now from my Best Buy, cause they just don't have allocation in their warehouses country wide. Vega on the other hand same thing. And its not a miners card. Its purely supply constrained. You don't see miners buying Vega's by the pallet. Those small time miners that have a few rigs and don't understand perf/$ are the only people that are buying up Vega for mining. The rest, know better.

Shit the 1080's get 12 bucks a card on the some alt coins (outside of Eth). Vega can't even dream of that.

PS also the demand excuses was also used for Intel's latest CPU, demand for it made them sell out, BS, we know Intel is supply constrained.
 
Production of refreshed RyZen and Vega has been announced by AMD, 1st quarter production 2018 is the jest. RTG may have enough Vega 10's chips currently to carry through to then. Anyways this maybe a whole new AMD we are now seeing - not waiting on the competition to beat their pants off. A Ryzen refresh in a year is coming, Vega looks like it will be too but less than a year. So the news looks to be more good than bad.
 
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