Apps are for phones, the kiosks are dedicated large machines inside the store. There is a real significant difference in effect, use, and how they're implemented. Especially since the apps weren't being used to replace workers like kiosks are.
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Wall Street Cheers Replacement of Cashiers with Digital Kiosks
- Thread starter Megalith
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Kiosks are already cheaper than labor at $7.25/hr. The whole "$15/hr is to blame for automation" thing is Conservative propaganda.
As machines get cheaper the day will come when even $1/hr labor can't compete. And if that sounds insane then I'd point out in China, where labor does indeed get that cheap for low skilled work, jobs are being automated away right now.
The whole "make people work for less to compete against automation" approach falls apart with even a minimal understanding of the way things are going.
That is why some are beginning to advocate for a UBI now.
heatlesssun
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You only eat if what you can do costs less than a machine unless you're born into wealth. A far greater danger than machines killing us all.
heatlesssun
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Not sure why the job creator nonsense was ever a thing. Capitalism is about one thing only, the accumulation of wealth. Having to pay people to create that wealth is but an unfortunate consequence of creating even more wealth.
D
Deleted member 82943
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Tech has always been about driving lower prices for inputs. So if tech can make the cost of getting the burger into my hands then hell yes. They might not pass that cost savings to me or they might. Either way it’s more efficient.
prime2515102
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Yeah, I know what a kiosk is. I think you missed the point.
And I would have to disagree that they haven't been used to replace workers. They cut the workforce a long time ago and are just getting around to replacing them with the app.
Case in point: It used to take, on average, about two minutes to get your food at a McDonald's. I would be lucky to spend less than 6 minutes in a McDonald's now just to get a cup of coffee. Yes, that's partially due to them not making as much food ahead of time to save money (and why they don't even call it fast food anymore) but I'm pretty sure that having only one cashier working when there are 20 people standing in line has a lot more to do with it.
BulletDust
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News flash, employees are not charities. The notion of a country where people work for tips is a global disgrace. Pay the people that make up the business you own what they're realistically worth, $15.00/hr including overheads is less than what other countries are paying and most of those economies are no worse than the good 'ol US of A. As an employer you don't make up the business anymore, those people you employ that work for peanuts do - Show some respect.
The effect of media propaganda and the globalisation of right wing economics on the masses is so evident, no empathy at all! If someone pays taxes and expects something in return, there's nothing wrong with that when large corporations pay no taxes, get a tax break on no taxes and then get government handouts to the tune of millions!
Unless you open that wallet and see millions, you're middle/working class. Too many idiots thinking their millionaires due to the allure of low interest rates.
I got what you were trying to say but I think the difference between a kiosk and a app is big enough to treat them as 2 totally different things.
Apps can certainly have an effect on employment at places like McD but I think what you're describing was more of a result of what happened after the Great Recession hit rather than apps. McD's and a bunch of other stores and corps essentially laid off people or just stopped hiring and then let the remaining staff pick up the extra work without more pay. That was years ago now but they never stopped doing it.
THey just did that at a kroger. They took out a register or 2 that had cigarettes behind them (and I guess moved the smokes) and I think they went from 5 or 6 self serves to about 12. Considering it was extremely rare to have all the registers in use, I doubt anyone lost their job, they just eliminated the wait for the self checkout.
That said, in LA, at Albertsons, they pulled out all the self checkouts several years ago. I don't know why offhand.
THe only thing I dislike at Kroger is if you have coupons, you have to wait for someone to scan them for you. Given that all my coupons are store coupons (Kroger sends a bunch of them about once a month) that can only be scanned once, I'm not sure why they don't allow those to be customer scanned, especially since that's exactly how it use to work.
wareyore
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At $7, $8 maybe up to $10 they are adding value, maybe. What additional value is added once the rate goes to $15?
And yes, that's exactly why those processes get automated.
And that's left wing rubbish.
Anyone making minimum wage pays little or nothing in income taxes. In many states with a low minimum wage, they even qualify for the earned income tax credit, so they pay nothing and instead get money back.
(and no, I'm not including social security as that's separate. Hopefully you'll get much of that back when you retire)
FYI: It's hard to give tax breaks to people who are paying little no taxes.
I always have to laugh at people who tell others to pick up a second job, in relation to automata replacing human workers. Its a circular argument. Automation replaces more jobs -> second job gets phased out. Hamster on a wheel type stuff, except you run out of gas in the end.
Also, newsflash - automation is predicted to start replacing more specialized jobs in the future, too. That whole 'no worthwhile skills, bang out of luck' argument won't apply either, when those jobs are replaced. Private enterprise isn't a charity, but employees are expected to be new age indentured servants.
Also, newsflash - automation is predicted to start replacing more specialized jobs in the future, too. That whole 'no worthwhile skills, bang out of luck' argument won't apply either, when those jobs are replaced. Private enterprise isn't a charity, but employees are expected to be new age indentured servants.
sirmonkey1985
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it's all relative, countries that have minimum wages higher than the US also have much much higher taxes.. for example most countries in the EU pay around 19 USD an hour minimum wage but you have the insane income tax on top of an insanely high VAT tax(sales tax). if we were to implement that in the US our minimum wage would be some where in the range of 25 dollars an hour.
Then get a job that will be difficult/impossible for a machine to replace.
Learn a skill like plumbing, or repairing kiosks
wareyore
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Don't want to work for tips? Then don't. It's a free country.
Not getting respect at your job? Get another. It's a free country.
Human not adding value in a cost effective way? Replace them with a "process improvement". It's a free country.
I have long maintained the position that if you can't afford to pay your employees a living wage and operate your business, then you are running an illegal charity. It is not up to the employees to donate their time to subsidize your bad business plan. This pushes the costs onto the taxpayers and other businesses. In the end, businesses paying less than a living wage are defrauding the tax payers in my opinion.
There is no maybe with $7-10/hr, or even really $15/hr. https://www.elephantjournal.com/2014/01/how-much-everything-at-mcdonalds-costs-to-make-photo/
This is because very little labor is needed to produce a burger. Most of the cost is the meat, the store, franchise fees, etc.
Only a handful of cities have decided to raise wages to $15/hr and most of them decided to do it over a period of years, not all at once, yet McD's is putting these kiosks in all sorts of locations where the min. wage is still $7.25/hr.
You have no clue at all about the subject you're posting.
bigdogchris
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I see this like the shelf checkout lines at the grocery store. They are there for people who want to use them (me) but they still have regular registers staffed by people.
I think it would be easier to eliminate staff at the grocery checkout than a fast food place, yet it has not happened.
The kiosk will supplement a cashier, not completely replace them.
I think it would be easier to eliminate staff at the grocery checkout than a fast food place, yet it has not happened.
The kiosk will supplement a cashier, not completely replace them.
But they'll still pay plenty in sales tax and still have to pay FICA, gas taxes, registration fees, etc. Its a lie to say they pay nothing in taxes at all.
Hahahahahaha so the taxes that they pay don't count because you think otherwise eh?
That is what a UBI/Mincome is for.
The competition for work will drive the wages down on jobs that can't be automated though. Its already hard to get a good job with long term security in the trades.Then get a job that will be difficult/impossible for a machine to replace. Learn a skill like plumbing, or repairing kiosks
And there'll still be huge numbers of people who won't be able to find work...what happens to them? You just going to hope they all die quietly in a ditch somewhere while you pretend they don't exist 'cause maybe everything (so you hope) turns out fine for you?
The choice between being stuck in poverty working a crap job or living a short terrible life in a box on the street is not the sort of "freedom" anyone sane or sensible is interested in.
And when the process has been improved to the point where there is so little human labor involved that almost no one can buy your product what then?
That argument doesn't hold water since even with the higher taxes to pay for their strong(er) social safety nets their quality life is still often significantly better than what they'd get here in the US for the same job.
Their costs for things like healthcare are also effectively much lower than if they had our system too.
YeuEmMaiMai
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what do you expect to happen when people take a job meant to teach you basic work skills and how to get along with people in a professional environment and turn it into a career path? this is what demanding $15/hr to do the most basic of tasks does.....
Go Mc Donald's GO!
oh really that is why people want to keep coming here for the America dream....
Go Mc Donald's GO!
oh really that is why people want to keep coming here for the America dream....
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They're putting the kiosks in areas where the min. wage is $7.25/hr too. It has nothing to do with $15/hr min. wage which, again, has only been implemented in a few areas or is only being implemented slowly.
You and others who keep parotting this "$15/hr kills all fast food jobs" talking point are getting played for fools.
Also jobs like McD's don't do anything to "teach basic work skills". Having worked there years ago for a while my training wasn't even an hour long. Wiping down tables and working a register is something even a 5th grader could do with minimal training. And nothing about working a register or putting napkins in the dispenser prepared me or anyone else for any other job much less a professional one.
edit: it also didn't do anything to instill a work ethic or repect for leadership either, it did quite the opposite in fact since no matter how hard you worked the best raise you could get was a joke and getting even that joke of a raise was virtually impossible.
YeuEmMaiMai
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the hourly rate indeed does contribute to decision made by company... labor is one of the largest factors impacting profits on a fast food joint... keep trying though
So you're saying even $7.25/hr is too much and not $15/hr? What exactly do you think the min. wage should be and why?
Its one of the larger ones but not the largest for places like McD's where the price of beef can be a bigger factor than labor. Labor is about 1/3 to 1/4 the cost of operating a business in fast food.
edit: There have been high quality studies on this issue and they've found $15/hr min. wage would only require fast food companies to raise prices by ~4% to maintain their current profit levels. That was done by Purdue which isn't at all a Left biased college BTW. There are some Conservative think tanks that claim the number is higher but they do so by using some very strange assumptions about how slightly higher food prices would drive away incredible amounts of business to get their numbers. IOW far fetched assumptions.
I also never said anything about labor NOT being a significant cost of doing business in fast food so instead of strawmanning me it'd be nice if you actually replied to something I said.
There's nothing new about this at all. In the 1940's there was this restaurant called the 'automat'. All the food was behind little doors, you put your coins in, and took out the food. NO waiters, no cashiers, none of that. All self service. Didn't become universal. There were a few still around in the late 1950's in Manhattan, my mom used to take us there for the novelty of it all. Told us stories about how she and her sisters used to go there and make tomato soup out of boiling water and ketchup when they had nothing to eat. So self serve mcdonalds are just a revival of the same. As far as grocery stores, I've been bagging my own stuff for years, because the idiot cashiers keep putting my crushable stuff in the bottom of the bags and throwing the cans on top. Running my card through the machine when done is easier than using cash.
Some people are better at math than others.
Conservatives: "Get another job" only works if there are enough jobs to go around. Just because that can work on the individual level doesn't mean it scales to the macro of hundreds of millions of people. After a point, it becomes musical chairs.
Liberals: Minimum wage isn't a solution to increased automation. If there aren't enough jobs to go around, than the minimum only matters to people who can get one in the first place. It DOES incentivize a faster rate of automation, though how much is debatable. If an automating a workforce will take 20 years to pay off compared to $7.25 or $9 an hour, it's worth kicking the can down the road. If it can pay off in 5 years, it might be worth jumping forward.
This is such a basic economic decision, it's amazing anyone "resists" it or decries it.
Let's see...
1. A group thinks smokers should be discouraged from smoking, so they raise the cost of cigarettes.
The logic is: raise the cost of something and less of that activity will occur.
2. Barack Hussein Obama thought Americans used too much electricity, so he wanted to raise the electrical rates. ("Costs would, necessarily, skyrocket.").
The logic is: raise the cost of something and less of that activity will occur.
3. A bunch of SJW activists think burger flipping is skilled labor and that every job, regardless of how menial, should support a family of four. They push to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour.
The logic is: raise the cost of something and MORE of that activity will occur?
If you artificially raise the cost of labor, that will cause LESS labor to be used. You want to MANDATE a $15 minimum wage? You just caused a lot of folks to lose their $7, $8, $9, or $10 an hour job. Congrats.
Let's see...
1. A group thinks smokers should be discouraged from smoking, so they raise the cost of cigarettes.
The logic is: raise the cost of something and less of that activity will occur.
2. Barack Hussein Obama thought Americans used too much electricity, so he wanted to raise the electrical rates. ("Costs would, necessarily, skyrocket.").
The logic is: raise the cost of something and less of that activity will occur.
3. A bunch of SJW activists think burger flipping is skilled labor and that every job, regardless of how menial, should support a family of four. They push to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour.
The logic is: raise the cost of something and MORE of that activity will occur?
If you artificially raise the cost of labor, that will cause LESS labor to be used. You want to MANDATE a $15 minimum wage? You just caused a lot of folks to lose their $7, $8, $9, or $10 an hour job. Congrats.
D
Deleted member 126051
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But not necessarily cheap enough to justify the opportunity cost.
Remember, the initial purchase and installation are only part of the total, ongoing cost.
D
Deleted member 126051
Guest
Some jobs simply are NOT worth "a living wage".
Some jobs are meant as to provide ancillary income (husband works, rugrats are in school, wife wants to help out a bit but doesn't have much in the way of marketable skills).
Businesses like In n Out pay their employees well and they are thriving. When minimum was $8.25 an hour, they were paying their employees at least $10.50 or so just to start out. Other places started their pay at $12 and brought it up to $15 after 60 days (Moo Cluck Moo @ Canton, Mich.). Those places are not hurting financially and they are *always* full. Now look at a place like McDonalds, and while business is steady, there just isn't anywhere near as much traffic and their employees often look unhappy and/or disheveled.
McD's has to make the bleeding stop somewhere, so eliminating cashier positions is a step towards it. They just want to turn it into a vending machine, basically. I hope it works for them, but I'll just continue to enjoy a well made burger at in n out where I don't have to look at the employee and feel sorry for them.
McD's has to make the bleeding stop somewhere, so eliminating cashier positions is a step towards it. They just want to turn it into a vending machine, basically. I hope it works for them, but I'll just continue to enjoy a well made burger at in n out where I don't have to look at the employee and feel sorry for them.
Well let us know how you get on when it happens chap!
Keep in touch!
The issue this time is we wiped out the industrial jobs last century. Now we are wiping out the menial and white collar jobs. Whats left for humanity to do?
If you don't want to pay 80% of the world's future unemployed workforce a living wage then you better start putting a contraceptive in the drinking water pretty quick.
What is the grand plan? What happens when the 99% have nothing more to give to the 1%?
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Dalexx
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Again, what is your proposal? Ban all technology? I did say we need to embrace and plan accordingly and I roughly support Bill Gate's suggestion on a robot tax that would in turn be used to give people a basic living income. You are on a website that is focused on technology, but you seem to be anti-technology. Automation will continue in the workforce, that's a fact. Planning on how to deal with the effects is what the focus should be on.
I agree but what is the plan? The issue is no one has one long term. They are just rolling this crap out with no concept of the chain of events they are unfolding.
"Heyyy it's fine we'll be making more money, saving costs...now!" But as I said what happens when 80% of the western workforce no longer has a job and any way to support themselves?
The West needs a long term plan for the next 50+ years. This is where the likes of China and Russia have an advantage as they do not have to keep pandering to short term vote winning pledges and Wall Street so much.
sirmonkey1985
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it's the same thing with costco, overpay their employee's and have one of the lowest turn over rates for employee's leaving before retirement, was the same thing for lucky's back in the day. but ultimately this is one of the downsides to having to answer to shareholders(in and out burger isn't a publicly shared company btw) that only give a shit about how much profit a company makes every year.
btw i hate you because we don't have an in and out burger here. there's only two things i miss after moving away from california, in and out burger and mexican food trucks.
It's funny how all the folks saying that $15 an hour minimum wage doesn't hurt a business...don't own a business or have any employees.
If $15 is nothing but good, why stop there? Mandate $20/hr. Or, stop being so selfish, and mandate $100/hr.
Oh? There are deleterious effects? Yeah...
If $15 is nothing but good, why stop there? Mandate $20/hr. Or, stop being so selfish, and mandate $100/hr.
Oh? There are deleterious effects? Yeah...
d50man
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Everytime automation is introduced into an industry it is not to make the work easier, it is GREED! Human Labor will continue to be cut in favor of cheaper machines only to reduce costs NOT TO IMPROVE quality of life.
There's definitely an argument to be made there, but of course the counter argument is how does someone survive if they don't have the skills for higher paying work. One stat that might be worth looking at is how many jobs DO pay a living wage v. how many households there are in the country.