Need your thoughts

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Outlaw85

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Feb 7, 2012
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I'm trying to help the shop my brother works at upgrade/simply the current setup. I think I have a plan down but looking for 2nd opinions.

Issue
Multiple 4port hubs with varying speeds from 10Mb to Gbit. I've temp replaced the 10Mb with a Gbit to relieve the bottleneck.
Currently cables looks to be Cat 5 (non-e) at best.

My plan
Replace cabling that I can with Cat 6 plenum
Remove as many hubs as possible
Install two Gbit switches



121bke9.png

Green- Devices connecting to internet
Red- 4 Port hubs
Grey- Modem (red next to grey is router)

My original thought was to put a 24port switch in the utility room and rewire but I'm not able to go through walls. I would have to use existing routes which would mean I would need a bundle of 8 wires running out side the wall to under the desk where the devices are sitting (stuff by modem).

I can fairly easily run from utility room to the left where an office is. The other devices all the way to the right is going to be an issue too since there are a couple walls to go over as well as it being about 20ft up.

---
Current plan
Put 16 port switch by modem under desk to allow for all and future devices to connect without buying new equipment later.
Put 8 port switch in the utility room to link the rest of the building.

This isn't a large shop. Family owned. They don't need anything crazy but want it to work and need stability. I'm looking at using the Netgear GS116NA and Netgear FS108 switches.

Any thoughts on these devices is there something better in the price range of these? Probably be able to push up a bit but not much.


Thanks,
 
WHen you say hubs, do you actually mean true Ethernet hubs, or are these switches and you are just calling them hubs?

Also, you don't have much options for plans if you can't run additional cables, or relocate cabling to a specific "closet"

Do you need wireless?
What kind of access do you need?
Security?
Do you need layer 3?
 
Use the old cable to pull the new cat6. Buy 1- 8 port switch and 2- 5 port switches.

If you don't have money/time to do it right, when will you have time/money to do it over?:whistle:
 
Cmustang87 said:
WHen you say hubs, do you actually mean true Ethernet hubs, or are these switches an
Click to expand...

They are all called hubs. "switch" is a slang expression from the more technically correct term "switching hub".
So both hub and "switches are actually sub categories of hubs which technically shoudl be called non-switching and switching hubs
A fast switchings hubs would be a 100mbits hub and 1 gbit swithing hub would be offcause 1gbit.

However the slang expression took over many years ago but its still technically correct to call them both for hubs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_switch

some of us old farts remember he time where you actually had non switching and switching hubs
 
I will lead with sorry. The post was rushed as I was trying to get it sent before leaving. And secondly, thank you for the fast responses.


Cmustang87 said:
WHen you say hubs, do you actually mean true Ethernet hubs, or are these switches and you are just calling them hubs?

Also, you don't have much options for plans if you can't run additional cables, or relocate cabling to a specific "closet"

Do you need wireless?
What kind of access do you need?
Security?
Do you need layer 3?
Click to expand...


Unfortunately I didn't write the model down but I want to say they specifically said hub. To my knowledge, there is no smarts to them.
They are these but I'm pretty sure older.
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16833122005

The one I temp replaced looked like it might have come with the building. Really old and only 10base-T. When I stop back over there, I'll get the model.

They do have wireless and want to keep it.
The workstations are only setup in a workgroup. No domain needed. <10 employees.
Right now, security is basic router firewall.
Based on how everything is used. I will say no layer 3 needed. They have a few web based apps for vendors and customer use. I have a 48port 10/100 cisco switch collecting dust that I thought would be perfect until we came into the cabling dilemma. Only issue is the 10/100 BUT I don't think they really need more than that based on what they do. If Spectrum increases the speed though, they will have to replace the switch... only real drawback I can think of at the moment.





DrLobotomy said:
Use the old cable to pull the new cat6. Buy 1- 8 port switch and 2- 5 port switches.

If you don't have money/time to do it right, when will you have time/money to do it over?:whistle:
Click to expand...


I've definitely thought about the cable to pull new. My concern is the shop owner is at least the 2nd tenant and I've already found several dead runs and not sure what I'm going to snag on. It's still on my drawing board as they are willing to go with my recommendation. It would come down to the time I have and the time they are willing to give me to do everything. I don't really want to use any current cabling to make sure it's not something old and going to be an issue later.

I also very much agree with you. on the doing it right. There is only 2 ways I can think of getting it done right (having the switch in the utility room). Both involve opening the wall which I did not discuss with them.
1. Going into the wall under the desk then straight up til the ceiling opens up and running the cables along the joists into the utility room
2. Going into the wall under the desk then up to the top of the door, then over the door into the utility room. This would potentially require removing drywall from the ceiling of the utility room too.

Option one would likely be the least invasive but not knowing whats in the wall makes me nervous.

This is how the current cable is run from the router to the utility room hub
16kq7hg.png



Could you elaborate on the 8port and 2x5port? I'm guessing your thinking to have the 8port at the desk with all the devices then the 2x5ports at each side of the drawing?





SvenBent said:
They are all called hubs. "switch" is a slang expression from the more technically correct term "switching hub".
So both hub and "switches are actually sub categories of hubs which technically should be called non-switching and switching hubs
A fast switching hubs would be a 100mbits hub and 1 gbit switching hub would be off course 1gbit.

However the slang expression took over many years ago but its still technically correct to call them both for hubs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_switch

some of us old farts remember he time where you actually had non switching and switching hubs
Click to expand...


Thanks :D I've generally just gone with the term switch when talking to people. Not sure why I decided to use 'hub' other than it was what it said on them. Didn't mean to cause further confusion.



Again. Thank you for the fast responses and hopefully I answered everything.
 
Minimal cable runs by using the switches I suggested. putting everything in that utility room will just make for more cable runs.

Use a cheap stud finder to find the easiest path up the walls if you go that route.

A picture of the ceiling/walls would also kinda help to see what may be easier via existing channels etc.
 
Minimal cable runs es, but more possible points of failure. His original idea is what I would do, except I would just place 2x 24 port gig switches, or two 16s, it may be a small family shop now but you never know what may be needed later as more and more devices and tools become "smart"

I would consider running new cable if there is an issue, but what type of business is this? Do they need full gigabit? are they transferring large chunks of data constantly? if not I would only upgrade your main runs (Line from Modem or WAN to main switch, and lines from main switch to any "server" they have) the rest of it is most likely fine if this is a small shop.
 
I've often found people have an innate desire to overbuild these small grade networks just because it's how we would do it for ourselves.

For small business less than ten units I generally just install a small Gig switch in the server room, two Ubiquity AP's (be careful of which ones, some don't manage hand offs well), carefully define what type of wireless cards they should use and walk away. The reasons are, they never consider the mangled cables they let happen over time as a problem, their server is generally just connected with a single Gig port anyhow, they rarely or never use bandwidth that isn't directed to the internet which is usually some shitty 10 meg service or something and they just want wifi for their cell phones and printers.

Having said that, a clear understanding of their bandwidth needs both burst and constant should be undertaken before making or recommending changes. As much as I wire up all my crap with actual cabling runs, most smalls business don't benefit from it anymore.

The other thing I usually find is some cheap ass router they expect to communicate with the world and keep them safe and load balance their surfing and and and ...... most of that gear is garbage with crappy firmware (there are always exceptions, don't flood me with stories of how good your Tomato based router is now that you have liquid cooled it ). My favorite trick is to downgrade their DSL or cable modem to the simplest but hardiest device possible and run a pfsense firewall on their server as a VM. It's free for the cost of a couple network cards and basically runs circles around all these little routers with cool features like load balancing, bandwidth management that actually works, rules that you can create to manage basically any situation. If the server packs it in the VM will run on a notebook if it comes to that (it does sometimes).
 
Last edited:
DrLobotomy said:
Minimal cable runs by using the switches I suggested. putting everything in that utility room will just make for more cable runs.

Use a cheap stud finder to find the easiest path up the walls if you go that route.

A picture of the ceiling/walls would also kinda help to see what may be easier via existing channels etc.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. When I get over there again, I'll get some pics. Basically it is an open ceiling in the showroom up to the rafters. There are walls separating the rooms though and unfortunately, they do go all the way up. The current channels are holes people have put into the walls from one room to another to run cables. They were then secured to the wall to go over doorways and such until the next room where another hole was made. Hopefully that helps with a visual until I get a pic.





ChRoNo16 said:
Minimal cable runs es, but more possible points of failure. His original idea is what I would do, except I would just place 2x 24 port gig switches, or two 16s, it may be a small family shop now but you never know what may be needed later as more and more devices and tools become "smart"

I would consider running new cable if there is an issue, but what type of business is this? Do they need full gigabit? are they transferring large chunks of data constantly? if not I would only upgrade your main runs (Line from Modem or WAN to main switch, and lines from main switch to any "server" they have) the rest of it is most likely fine if this is a small shop.
Click to expand...

Any cable I need to touch will be replaced. regardless of path. I know there is already one bad one and the cat 5 at best is meh. No reason to use old stuff and it's residential. I told them about the plenum cable and they were good with me doing that. Are you talking about doing the 2x16 (or 24s) at the desk and the utility room? That would make sense, and for the extra $40 bucks, is worth the "future proofing".
It's a small engines shop: push, riders, multi-purpose..etc
They most definitely don't need full gigabit. It was just one of those.. we are replacing equipment, getting new, lets put in the gigabit. BUT I could use my 48port 10/100 and they probably wouldn't know the difference unless they increased the shop bandwidth and did a test.

I've not been able to monitor any traffic but it's all through vendor portals and they rarely need to upload pics to manufactures. My main concern is just the hodge-podge of wiring and mixed hardware. I also want to put their printers on the network since they are doing through USB and then sharing out. This is a side thing but they complained about the one computer being slow. On top of only 4GB, it was also working as a print server which would spike the system..

The thought about getting everything refreshed was if they had to call me, I would likely be able to walk them through the basics. I've spent a few hours there now just trying to trace cables and still haven't been able to find where they all go. Under the front desk looks like a spider web of cables, network, power..etc. Part of this is to clean it up and try to get some organization.

Sorry, that was probably a very long winded answer.





Simplyfun said:
I've often found people have an innate desire to overbuild these small grade networks just because it's how we would do it for ourselves.

For small business less than ten units I generally just install a small Gig switch in the server room, two Ubiquity AP's (be careful of which ones, some don't manage hand offs well), carefully define what type of wireless cards they should use and walk away. The reasons are, they never consider the mangled cables they let happen over time as a problem, their server is generally just connected with a single Gig port anyhow, they rarely or never use bandwidth that isn't directed to the internet which is usually some shitty 10 meg service or something and they just want wifi for their cell phones and printers.

Having said that, a clear understanding of their bandwidth needs both burst and constant should be undertaken before making or recommending changes. As much as I wire up all my crap with actual cabling runs, most smalls business don't benefit from it anymore.

The other thing I usually find is some cheap ass router they expect to communicate with the world and keep them safe and load balance their surfing and and and ...... most of that gear is garbage with crappy firmware (there are always exceptions, don't flood me with stories of how good your Tomato based router is now that you have liquid cooled it ). My favorite trick is to downgrade their DSL or cable modem to the simplest but hardiest device possible and run a pfsense firewall on their server as a VM. It's free for the cost of a couple network cards and basically runs circles around all these little routers with cool features like load balancing, bandwidth management that actually works, rules that you can create to manage basically any situation. If the server packs it in the VM will run on a notebook if it comes to that (it does sometimes).
Click to expand...


I would definitely agree with that statement. I want them to be as happy as I would be if I were doing it for myself. To me that is just good customer service. But like you're pointing out with the WIFI, it doesn't mean it's the best option. I hadn't even given wireless a thought. Is there a model you'd recommend? Seems there is a lot in the Ubiquity line ranging from xx to xxx. If price is within reason, I could probably talk to them about this option. Any thoughts on TP Link- https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-AC12...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EKYNXQVE2NSATW07DANM

I didn't grab the model but yes, it's just a basic Linksys router they are using. I would love to go full pfsense. That is one thing I've not had the time to fully jump into at home where I have a 2 node cluster to play around with VMs. It's actually one of my to do's. Their "server" is just a SQL server running on retail Windows. Like a lot of this, I haven't been able to spend as much time over there as I would like. I need to find out more about it. The most I know right now is it's a backup.. which I'm not sure what it's backing up yet. Back to the pfsense though, I do have a couple systems collecting dust that would be more than enough power (C2Q/8GB ram) for pfsense. I wouldn't trust the notebooks I have but again, very good point.


Your pretty spot on about their speed. lol. We are Spectrum (formerly TWC) here and when I did a speed test. I seen 11Mb max up, connected to the router and did a wireless test and hit 16Mb. I told them to call... now they at least get the 60Mb (70Mb over a test) business class offered for less than what they were paying before. Their current wifi is much more stable than the landline it seems which may be related to cabling and low end specs on pc's.




A lot of good input here! Thank you again! As much as the new options give me a headache I'm glad to have other avenues I hadn't previously considered.
If I missed anything, please let me know,

Thanks
 
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Outlaw85 said:
I would definitely agree with that statement. I want them to be as happy as I would be if I were doing it for myself. To me that is just good customer service. But like you're pointing out with the WIFI, it doesn't mean it's the best option. I hadn't even given wireless a thought. Is there a model you'd recommend? Seems there is a lot in the Ubiquity line ranging from xx to xxx. If price is within reason, I could probably talk to them about this option. Any thoughts on TP Link- https://www.amazon.com/TP-Link-AC12...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=EKYNXQVE2NSATW07DANM

I didn't grab the model but yes, it's just a basic Linksys router they are using. I would love to go full pfsense. That is one thing I've not had the time to fully jump into at home where I have a 2 node cluster to play around with VMs. It's actually one of my to do's. Their "server" is just a SQL server running on retail Windows. Like a lot of this, I haven't been able to spend as much time over there as I would like. I need to find out more about it. The most I know right now is it's a backup.. which I'm not sure what it's backing up yet. Back to the pfsense though, I do have a couple systems collecting dust that would be more than enough power (C2Q/8GB ram) for pfsense. I wouldn't trust the notebooks I have but again, very good point.


Your pretty spot on about their speed. lol. We are Spectrum (formerly TWC) here and when I did a speed test. I seen 11Mb max up, connected to the router and did a wireless test and hit 16Mb. I told them to call... now they at least get the 60Mb (70Mb over a test) business class offered for less than what they were paying before. Their current wifi is much more stable than the landline it seems which may be related to cabling and low end specs on pc's.




A lot of good input here! Thank you again! As much as the new options give me a headache I'm glad to have other avenues I hadn't previously considered.
If I missed anything, please let me know,

Thanks
Click to expand...

For the little companies I like these https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Networks-802-11ac-Dual-Radio-UAP-AC-PRO-US/dp/B015PRO512
they are simple to use and do handoffs really nicely. The reason for two isn't that their space is huge and requires massive coverage, it's just that if one hangs, no one will really notice and they won't call me. I'm not joking. Instead I'll get an alert email, know it's non urgent and deal with it at my leisure long before anyone says anything.

Don't be afraid of something like pfsense, it's just routing and firewall tech. A Q2D and two gigs of RAM is MORE than enough for a firewall like this even if everything was encrypted. I run an MLPPP connection on a 1.6 Ghz single core atom and 1.5 Gigs of RAM at home on a netbook. Hell I'm running 150Mbps encrypted at work on only two cores core of a 3.0ish Ghz Richland. I run a lot of them in VM's because a lot of people have quad core servers that are way under utilized, so I scoop a core and a Gig of RAM for the firewall either under Hyper V or Virtualbox ( I have no preference here as long as it's free).

But yes, a wireless shop is faster to implement and easier to maintain long run, the dual bands make a lot of difference in getting rid of every day interference. The lack of cabling headaches means you are in and out there in record time too. Hell even USB adapters with antennas are good these days.

Anyhow, have fun and don't overthink it, it's pretty straightforward, meet their business needs with less fuss and more performance than they experience today while allowing for growth, keeping in mind that you want as low a maintenance footprint as possible for yourself.
 
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Simplyfun said:
For the little companies I like these https://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-Networks-802-11ac-Dual-Radio-UAP-AC-PRO-US/dp/B015PRO512
they are simple to use and do handoffs really nicely. The reason for two isn't that their space is huge and requires massive coverage, it's just that if one hangs, no one will really notice and they won't call me. I'm not joking. Instead I'll get an alert email, know it's non urgent and deal with it at my leisure long before anyone says anything.

Don't be afraid of something like pfsense, it's just routing and firewall tech. A Q2D and two gigs of RAM is MORE than enough for a firewall like this even if everything was encrypted. I run an MLPPP connection on a 1.6 Ghz single core atom and 1.5 Gigs of RAM at home on a netbook. Hell I'm running 150Mbps encrypted at work on only two cores core of a 3.0ish Ghz Richland. I run a lot of them in VM's because a lot of people have quad core servers that are way under utilized, so I scoop a core and a Gig of RAM for the firewall either under Hyper V or Virtualbox ( I have no preference here as long as it's free).

But yes, a wireless shop is faster to implement and easier to maintain long run, the dual bands make a lot of difference in getting rid of every day interference. The lack of cabling headaches means you are in and out there in record time too. Hell even USB adapters with antennas are good these days.

Anyhow, have fun and don't overthink it, it's pretty straightforward, meet their business needs with less fuss and more performance than they experience today while allowing for growth, keeping in mind that you want as low a maintenance footprint as possible for yourself.
Click to expand...


Thanks!

Just skimming that link and noticed the other 2 lesser priced ones in the 'compare to similar items'. Any real differences? Not trying to be an ass, just curious. I'll be honest, budgeting stuff is hard to go beyond what I would likely spend for myself. I'm not saying that is right either though.

With the 2 APs and reading the reviews. I think they should easily reach all the PC's. The one furthest right could be covered by an AP in the room between it and the utility room. The furthest right pc is about 50-75ish feet from the utility room. I've not seen in the walls but what I could gather is likely wood. I will still need to have wired connection for the 5 devices at the front desk since they can't be made wireless. Which, imo, still leaves me with either running a bundle to the utility room or putting a switch under the desk to the utility room. Hmmmm... lol

With what their shelves the pc's were sitting on looked like, I'd be worried they bump the usb wifi adapters loose. Looks like worst case, I could get a wired antenna to replace the hard antenna. I could work with that.

I've got some homework to do on those APs and see what I got for some pfsense. While not preferred. may have to be a stage 2 of their refresh.
 
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Outlaw85 said:
Thanks!

Just skimming that link and noticed the other 2 lesser priced ones in the 'compare to similar items'. Any real differences? Not trying to be an ass, just curious. I'll be honest, budgeting stuff is hard to go beyond what I would likely spend for myself. I'm not saying that is right either though.

With the 2 APs and reading the reviews. I think they should easily reach all the PC's. The one furthest right could be covered by an AP in the room between it and the utility room. The furthest right pc is about 50-75ish feet from the utility room. I've not seen in the walls but what I could gather is likely wood. I will still need to have wired connection for the 5 devices at the front desk since they can't be made wireless. Which, imo, still leaves me with either running a bundle to the utility room or putting a switch under the desk to the utility room. Hmmmm... lol

With what their shelves the pc's were sitting on looked like, I'd be worried they bump the usb wifi adapters loose. Looks like worst case, I could get a wired antenna to replace the hard antenna. I could work with that.

I've got some homework to do on those APs and see what I got for some pfsense. While not preferred. may have to be a stage 2 of their refresh.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the cheaper ones don't have the same bands or carrying capacity. Bring yourself up to speed on the Ubiquity web site so you have faith in your recommendations by all means. I just gave you the example of what I generally use because I've tried most of these and I learned what works without tinkering too much. In terms of the front desk I'd try a single Gigabit cable connection /run on a powered switch split among the devices. That's still significant bandwidth for daily database access, printing and Internet connectivity.

If the PC's have expansion ports, internal cards are fine too, whatever works given the environment.
 
Would it be easier instead of trying to pull new shit, to just make a couple holes in a wall or two and just make a bunch of new runs? Most small businesses I just run drops in some pvc tube through a wall.

Pictures of the walls and where cables enter walls would help if you could, we may be able to help more.
 
Thanks everybody for the options and input.

I'm going to give them both options with costs and tell them the pros and cons of each but ultimately it's on them and what they want to pay for including my time.

Simplyfun-
Regardless I have been on Ubiquiti's website and had no idea the control they offered. I would like to get one or two for the house. Sorry if I came across questioning your recommendation, I meant it purely out of not knowing and based on what I've read so far would easily go with your recommendation.

Thank you again!!!


I'm going to blame work for cables on the brain. lol
20170619_155508

20170613_143434
 
Haha. Yep. Color coded and labeled. Only 10 more racks to go!

I haven't been back since posting dealing with 15hr days but I'll get some pics and report back when I get them.
 
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