Mark Zuckerberg Calls for Universal Basic Income in Harvard Commencement Speech

[DukenukemX]

Lol. The magic floating castle of robot slaves to give you free shit. Good luck with that. Meanwhile I'll be over here working my ass off and winning. With my 139 IQ that surely just means nuffin.

If you really have an IQ of 139 then you should be able to see the problems we're going to face in the upcoming future. Wealth inequality is still a growing problem, and automation is a reality. Unless you want to live a world of people living in the streets hungry and sick?

Because giving everyone "free" k-12 education has done wonders for so many? Free in this case makes it worthless except to those who make the best of it (due to culture and IQ) and they are often hampered by those who think they should be there but shouldn't.

We already have free education in the form of public schooling. We did this 100 years ago cause we wanted people who could read and write and do basic math. Now we just want people who can write programming code and understand chemistry.

If you want to delay the UBI future, then educate people to have better jobs. You know, STEM jobs.

I wish there was a way to where your age had to be next to your name when making a post, it would make things so much easier.

Yes, that way we can denounce them based on age. There's a reason why anonymity exists on the internet.

 

[Riptide_NVN]

If everyone had more money demand for products would go up sharply. A sharp increase in demand results in a low supply.

Low supply + high demand = higher prices

AKA, give everyone in america $1000/mo and in 3 months your cost if living goes up $1000

Not to mention the fact the increased taxation to support such a system doesn't happen in a vacuum. The costs will get passed on. It is a redistribution scheme. While competition will cut down on this effect somewhat it will still be there.

There are no free lunches.

 

[griff30]

I am already paying 30% in taxes and my insurance premiums have doubled so I am not sure I can afford "free money".

Or should we do as Bill Gates said and make robots do all the work and tax the robots?
---Isaac Asimov's casket flies into space because he "doesn't want to rest in peace on this planet anymore"

 

[dgz]

There are no free lunches.

Sure there are. I've bought a few lunches for people in need.

The only thing that's stopping you from doing the same is your will. You want an underclass.

 

[Deleted member 82943]

This would just be a way for government to pay themselves. The idea that you're taxed on social security income is insane. But addicts will just spend all their cash on drugs. More people will just stay homeless in Portland because now they can shit under the burnside bridge and not have to pay rent but now they show up to some government office to get their dole. And anything else I might recieve will just get taxed probably to oblivion.

 

[steakman1971]

lol it was a joke, but fishing all day does sound kind of fun since i have worked 30 years and never have taken a real vacation

You work hard so others do not have to.

 

[Riptide_NVN]

Sure there are. I've bought a few lunches for people in need.

The only thing that's stopping you from doing the same is your will. You want an underclass.

You paid for it.

Very few if any people literally want an "underclass". And that includes most people on both ends of the political spectrum. You can take your opinions on what you suppose I want and shove them someplace uncomfortable.

 

[DarkStar_WNY]

This is true actually, but it will look pretty bad when you apply it to the larger population. You'd be surprised how many people wouldn't mind living on just a basic income and not give a hoot about exploring their passion outside of having fun. Also, basic as in not welfare basic, but more like double minimum wage or so.

I've always been amazed at how many people are happy living with the bare minimum and aren't willing to put any effort into bettering their, or their children's life at all

lots of people but they wont have to work as much and will have more power to take jobs THEY WANT rather then need
again 800 to 1000 a month wont go very far

Why do you think they would make $800-1000 working as a waitress, I mean do you realize how high taxes would have to be raised for a scheme like this?

Another thread helping me find members to ignore. Keep 'em coming and before long reading the news forum will be painless for me!

Yeah, you would not want to risk hearing anyone who might challenge your views in your echo chamber now would you?

 

[DukenukemX]

Not to mention the fact the increased taxation to support such a system doesn't happen in a vacuum. The costs will get passed on. It is a redistribution scheme. While competition will cut down on this effect somewhat it will still be there.

There are no free lunches.

Capitalism isn't perfect. It was a system built for the industrial revolution. Technology created industry, and industry created jobs. With products came supply and followed by demand. But through this we employed everyone, cause we needed people to work the machinery. At first it was nearly slave labor, but thankfully we enacted laws that increased the quality of living for people.

But with automation this is coming to an end, and with it capitalism. We're about to enter the Signatory, which even Socialism isn't enough but it is a start. America and Europe doesn't even produce much of anything. We are a service based economy, which can't last forever.

 

[M76]

Many here don't seem to understand the concept of universal basic income.

The goal is not for people to stop working altogether.
The goal is to give a means of living and some minimal purchasing power to those displaced by technological unemployment, and those who are worthless on the job market.

 

[Riptide_NVN]

Capitalism isn't perfect.

No system is or ever likely will be perfect. I'm not sure humans are capable of creating anything of the sort. Capitalism has and continues (for now anyway) to be the best we have come up with.

I have an understanding of the automation angle and what it could bring down the road. I am generally pessimistic. That said we can't see the future and new industries we haven't been able to yet imagine may spring up to create the missing jobs. I have my doubts, as do you apparently.

 

[Killahurtz]

that attitude shouldn't piss off just republicans...this ass hat is worth billions , he can just give all those Harvard pea brains enough to pay off their student loans and stay out of my pocket...

but then again...I am old...I don't give a rats azz , in a short time I am gonna' start bleeding Medicare and Obammycare for every nickel I take, every hang nail , headache , stubbed toe , you name it I will be going to the "free" medic for treatment.
The young millennial socialists are going to pay through the nose for my existence and it will be a laugh the entire time.

 

[dgz]

You paid for it.

Well, they were free to do ones on the receiving end. I had the means to do it without compromising myself. My thinking is, why would you a rational person be against such a thing. And then it hit me - they wouldn't. So it must be anger or something. Feel free to judge me

 

[bbvdd2]

So this Asshat is promoting Communism at the same time Libbies are Tightly wound up about Russia this and Russia that. Where do these dummies believe money is going to come from? Do they really think our Govt can just cut checks every month for $1000 to each and every man, woman and child and it not have an effect on inflation or National Debt? Maybe he would volunteer the first months round of checks to 350,000,000 people? After that I think ole Zucky would be broke and so is this ridiculous idea.

 

[Killahurtz]

Capitalism isn't perfect. It was a system built for the industrial revolution. Technology created industry, and industry created jobs. With products came supply and followed by demand. But through this we employed everyone, cause we needed people to work the machinery. At first it was nearly slave labor, but thankfully we enacted laws that increased the quality of living for people.

But with automation this is coming to an end, and with it capitalism. We're about to enter the Signatory, which even Socialism isn't enough but it is a start. America and Europe doesn't even produce much of anything. We are a service based economy, which can't last forever.

hahaha....ya....there are MANY countries out there that have diddly squat...they are the people that need the "things" that we can make for them to improve their lives...we just have help get rid of the overlords and tribal structures that they live under...we give food and it goes to waste, we send money and it gets misappropriated...hmmm , but that would take efforts that the uneducated and misinformed call "colonization" and "imposing our will" .

I guess I could get with this idea of subsidizing ass sitting , but I would be more inclined to get behind a plan that paid this "income" as long as your ass was working 8 hours a day to make cheap products to donate to these countries and insure that the "peeps" get the shit. O well , we know that ain't happenin'

and you can stick socialism where you sit...socialism and communism have killed over 100 million people in just the last 100 years...not even counting war

 

[Killahurtz]

Communist Goals (1963) Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35 January 10, 1963

Current Communist Goals EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES Thursday, January 10, 1963 .

Mr. HERLONG. Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Patricia Nordman of De Land, Fla., is an ardent and articulate opponent of communism, and until recently published the De Land Courier, which she dedicated to the purpose of alerting the public to the dangers of communism in America.

At Mrs. Nordman's request, I include in the RECORD, under unanimous consent, the following "Current Communist Goals," which she identifies as an excerpt from "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen:

[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policy-making positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.
- See more at: http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm#sthash.rFNILlQ4.dpuf

 

[heatlesssun]

If automation begins to replace more and more workers ignoring the problem won't make it go away. Where labor cost savings have historically effected low skill and low wage jobs, we're now perhaps generation or two away from being able to significantly automate current high skill and high wage jobs with no jobs to replace them with.

Depending on just how good our technology becomes there could be some extremely difficult decisions to make. Do we do things like UBI or artificially cap the amount of automation we introduce into commerce to allow for more employment. In any case, while capitalism can be great it's not perfect and if mass automation does become possible for jobs across the board, capitalism alone will not be able to address the issue of how to make humans productive and capable of making a living if automation can cost-effectively replace ever growing numbers of humans.

 

[Ultima99]

Another thread helping me find members to ignore. Keep 'em coming and before long reading the news forum will be painless for me!

So many people these days love the echo chamber.

Left, right, it doesn't matter. CNN or Fox News you get 90% just what you want to hear reaffirming what you already believe.

If you don't watch those you probably visit very partisan websites that give the same effect. Do you really only want to see the posts that you agree with here too?

This just results in everyone thinking they're the damn Einstein of politics, economics, or whatever and anyone who disagrees is a complete idiot.

 

[travisty]

So who's going to work at restaurants, businesses, hospitals etc? This notion of UBI is completely retarded. It's billionaires skirting the fact that they don't pay their fair share in taxes and now they start spouting this UBI nonsense.

Robots will be replacing many jobs (estimates are from 30-50%) of all jobs in the coming 10-15 years. These are cooks, doctors, analysts, lawyers, truyck/taxi drivers, etc. We need to do something to make sure society does not go into a tail spin

 

[travisty]

Will do just the opposite...creating a dependency simply leads to morose, institutionalized people with zero drive in life because there's no incentive to attain anything better in life.

Studies of UBI show that you are incorrect



UBI cause more small businesses and people actually work more

 

[travisty]

So this Asshat is promoting Communism at the same time Libbies are Tightly wound up about Russia this and Russia that. Where do these dummies believe money is going to come from? Do they really think our Govt can just cut checks every month for $1000 to each and every man, woman and child and it not have an effect on inflation or National Debt? Maybe he would volunteer the first months round of checks to 350,000,000 people? After that I think ole Zucky would be broke and so is this ridiculous idea.

UBI is not Communist. The idea's been around since the French Revolution (hundreds of years prior to Communism being created). UBI is actually closer to Libertarianism in that it allows much more choice on the side of the consumer. Where today most consumers will always choose the cheapest item, if everyone had more security they could choose the product that was better because of _____ (conservation/workers rights, etc)

 

[RealBeast]

Of course Zuckerberg wants UBI, so we can all sit and Facebook all day every day.

 

[mullet]

Yes, that way we can denounce them based on age.

Correct.

 

[rhexis]

the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.

margaret thatcher

 

[Shogon]

Well, they were free to do ones on the receiving end. I had the means to do it without compromising myself. My thinking is, why would you a rational person be against such a thing. And then it hit me - they wouldn't. So it must be anger or something. Feel free to judge me

The problem is you're a Samaritan in a land of supposedly Christian values.

 

[Extra-Titanian]

No, you ignorant Titanian. The system you're thinking about gave everyone JOBS, not money. Huge difference. I won't even address the other non sense.

I know the type that is against anything good for society. The type that enjoy seeing others fail. The miserably, hateful type that is unhappy with their own lives.

The smug elitist who thinks they're clever by deferring to thinly veiled insults in lieu of an actual argument?

 

[Gavv]

Many here don't seem to understand the concept of universal basic income.

The goal is not for people to stop working altogether.
The goal is to give a means of living and some minimal purchasing power to those displaced by technological unemployment, and those who are worthless on the job market.

Many don't seem to understand we have this already. It's called welfare

As in welfare you give people other people's money there is no incentive to get off that money train.

We have welfare... now we want to rebrand it to UBI and give them more? So in the future we just up the ante again when we have many gaming the system?

 

[travisty]

Many don't seem to understand we have this already. It's called welfare

As in welfare you give people other people's money there is no incentive to get off that money train.

We have welfare... now we want to rebrand it to UBI and give them more? So in the future we just up the ante again when we have many gaming the system?

The big problem wit the current welfare state is that it punishes people if they try to get off it. Gain a dollar over the cap to stay on a system? Lose all help and thus lose money.

UBI is a basic income to everyone (rich/poor/in-between) with no stigma attached and payed automatically to each person (less for children probably). At a very high level, just enough to cover housing, food, and clothing. This is a true safety net. If someone wants luxuries - basically everything not housing/clothing/food, they can work to gain it - again this is probably in a world where AI has many jobs covered so charity or some other social task is probably what's available.

 

[Killahurtz]

"with no stigma attached"....hahahaha

 

[travisty]

"with no stigma attached"....hahahaha

You can laugh but it is true. There should be no negative emotions attributed to needing help. From the sound of it, you're one of the people that causes this problem.

I took unemployment for a few months as i was between jobs. It was wonderful that it was all online. No one knew i was unemployed - besides those i told and those who saw my resume. Unlike programs like SNAP where they are not allowed to buy pre-made foods - like pieces of cooked turkey for thanksgiving - and dealing with the cards. I'm employed again making over 100k/year so i am not some slacker, i just needed some assistance for a period of time.

UBI gives that basic support to make sure no one starves. It empowers people to take more chances with new entrepreneurial endeavors - there is a threshold to risk and UBI helps people go over it.

Malcolm Gladwell on threshold - http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/03-the-big-man-cant-shoot listen to the full thing to really understand it

 

[Gavv]

The big problem wit the current welfare state is that it punishes people if they try to get off it. Gain a dollar over the cap to stay on a system? Lose all help and thus lose money.

UBI is a basic income to everyone (rich/poor/in-between) with no stigma attached and payed automatically to each person (less for children probably). At a very high level, just enough to cover housing, food, and clothing. This is a true safety net. If someone wants luxuries - basically everything not housing/clothing/food, they can work to gain it - again this is probably in a world where AI has many jobs covered so charity or some other social task is probably what's available.

We have same system with unemployment. Social security... etc.

It's not new. In the past many have worked with the leg up system... the problem now is people are living on those systems and not wanting to go back to work. And when there are multiple systems giving money why work when a min wage part time job gives just the same or less money.

So I can't blame them... but at the same time we have a system that doesn't work really well and we want to put another system in and think it will somehow be better?

 

[OpStar]

As stated welfare punishes people for trying. An ex-girlfriend of mine had 3 year old twins when we were dating and she moved in. At the time she was unemployed and had food stamps. She ended up getting a job as a pharmacy tech so we assumed they would lessen her food assistance since we didn't need as much help. No, instead they said she made too much money and cut them off completely. The lady literally told her it didn't make sense for her to work, they could give her more if she stayed unemployed.

It's stupid.

I ended up working a part time job to cover the difference but it made no sense that she was encouraged to not work at all instead of work and just get a little help.

Welfare is all or nothing now a days and that is why so many people refuse to get off of it.

 

[travisty]

We have same system with unemployment. Social security... etc.

It's not new. In the past many have worked with the leg up system... the problem now is people are living on those systems and not wanting to go back to work. And when there are multiple systems giving money why work when a min wage part time job gives just the same or less money.

So I can't blame them... but at the same time we have a system that doesn't work really well and we want to put another system in and think it will somehow be better?

UBI replaces all those systems in one go.

Tell me this too, where can a 45 year old who was on a car manufacturing line go when they lose their job? Re-educate and compete against a new grad who's cheaper to pay and faster working? Free-market already says who wins there

 

[DKS]

Canada tried it in the 70s as part of a pilot program and it was effective. People still worked, money was saved on the consolidation.

Sadly, nothing came of the program.

The Canadian province of Ontario is undertaking a Basic Income Pilot right now to determine levels of basic income and the most effective service delivery models. As you correctly point out, the Dauphin experiment in the 1970's was very effective in increasing education levels (kids stated in school to graduate because they didn't need to go to work; the result was higher qualification for jobs at better pay). Business discovered people bought more and their employees were able to negotiate for higher wages. Health care costs (universal, single payer system) declined because there was less domestic violence and mental health issues as people were under much less mental stress. Every single point of opposition that people would not work, would just sit around and do nothing and so was was proved to be a complete lie.

 

[Terpfen]

The Universal Basic Income is such an awful idea that it falls apart completely when you ask one simple question: where does the money come from?

 

[Gavv]

As stated welfare punishes people for trying. An ex-girlfriend of mine had 3 year old twins when we were dating and she moved in. At the time she was unemployed and had food stamps. She ended up getting a job as a pharmacy tech so we assumed they would lessen her food assistance since we didn't need as much help. No, instead they said she made too much money and cut them off completely. The lady literally told her it didn't make sense for her to work, they could give her more if she stayed unemployed.

It's stupid.

I ended up working a part time job to cover the difference but it made no sense that she was encouraged to not work at all instead of work and just get a little help.

Welfare is all or nothing now a days and that is why so many people refuse to get off of it.

Yep that system and many others are challenged. The full time hours portion of employment comes to mind

To think we won't break a system like UBI is kind of naive don't you think?

 

[KarsusTG]

UBI replaces all those systems in one go.

Tell me this too, where can a 45 year old who was on a car manufacturing line go when they lose their job? Re-educate and compete against a new grad who's cheaper to pay and faster working? Free-market already says who wins there

As they pointed out in that video too, most of the people that retrain ended up making less than the people that did not retrain. It's almost always better to move to where there is a job, but as those jobs also disappear it's only going to get worse. UBI is pretty much inevitable.

 

[Terpfen]

UBI is pretty much inevitable.

No, it's not. UBI will never be a thing. It's entirely based on false premises, such as "the rates of unemployment, underemployment, and workforce participation under Obama are normal and expected", and "the money that funds UBI will just magically appear despite the fact we are paying people to not participate in the economic activity necessary to generate the revenue in the first place."

The TED talk video linked earlier that talks about "fixing capitalism" is hilarious. Capitalism is not a rigid system of rules, it is simply the allowance of private, self-negotiated transactions with minimal and predictable third party interference. Capitalism is not broken; we need more of it.

Edit: grammar.

 

[Elios]

The Universal Basic Income is such an awful idea that it falls apart completely when you ask one simple question: where does the money come from?

where does ANY money come from really?

 

[DukenukemX]

I have an understanding of the automation angle and what it could bring down the road. I am generally pessimistic. That said we can't see the future and new industries we haven't been able to yet imagine may spring up to create the missing jobs. I have my doubts, as do you apparently.

We've been lucky so far when the computer age in the 90's brought about a lot of new jobs. But that age is long over, and we're pushing those jobs to poor countries to cut cost. The only industry I can see rise up are genetic engineering and anti-aging technology. Both though are going to be heavily regulated. Which means someone in their garage can't experiment with this tech without someone coming down on them. It's not like Steve Wozniak where he built his computer in his own home.

We're out of new industry to make. On top of which a number of other events are converging at the same time as automation, which will just make matters worse. You can see a lot of people have now turned to YouTube to make an income. Literally live streaming and making crappy 10 minute videos. And that was an industry, as YouTube is now destroying this. Nobody else would make a competitor as they're afraid of dealing with copyright issues like YouTube constantly does.