Windows just works and Other OS improvements

Status
Not open for further replies.
Take it to the Linux forums if you are so adamant. Otherwise, no one but you cares about this stupid size thing you are getting into. (Or are you just compensating. ;) :D)

[Profanities removed]

Seriously, there is no bias here and discussion is mature and civil...

..Then you come along.

Lunar made a point that he believes to be an issue, the issue appears to be the fact that his chosen distro doesn't have much in the way of packages/dependencies by default and he has to download considerably more than would otherwise be considered normal. I am not attacking him and I am talking respectfully. Initially he believed the download size to be excessive due to the need to download numerous packages/dependencies, I have proven that the download size is not really that excessive in comparison to Windows. He believes that fragmentation across distro's is an issue, both ChadD and myself have explained that's the nature of open source and in many way's it's actually beneficial not to be locked down to a particular ecosystem.

If you believe anything I have claimed is in error, please, feel free to prove otherwise.

Otherwise, whether you were the OP of this thread or not, it would be appreciated if you could post in a mature and friendly manner. You're always welcome to send me a PM if you have an issue with my posting as opposed to clogging up forum threads.
 
[Profanities removed]

Seriously, there is no bias here and discussion is mature and civil...

..Then you come along.

Lunar made a point that he believes to be an issue, the issue appears to be the fact that his chosen distro doesn't have much in the way of packages/dependencies by default and he has to download considerably more than would otherwise be considered normal. I am not attacking him and I am talking respectfully. Initially he believed the download size to be excessive due to the need to download numerous packages/dependencies, I have proven that the download size is not really that excessive in comparison to Windows. He believes that fragmentation across distro's is an issue, both ChadD and myself have explained that's the nature of open source and in many way's it's actually beneficial not to be locked down to a particular ecosystem.

If you believe anything I have claimed is in error, please, feel free to prove otherwise.

Otherwise, whether you were the OP of this thread or not, it would be appreciated if you could post in a mature and friendly manner. You're always welcome to send me a PM if you have an issue with my posting as opposed to clogging up forum threads.

I am the OP and as long as I am posting according to the rules, I am not particularly concerned about your opinion of my posting. He made some very valid points but, you continued to harp on one point that no one else card about. Move on from it or just make your own thread about that point and see what happens.
 
I am the OP and as long as I am posting according to the rules, I am not particularly concerned about your opinion of my posting. He made some very valid points but, you continued to harp on one point that no one else card about. Move on from it or just make your own thread about that point and see what happens.

Well his point wasn't unrelated. The conversation sort of went...

Having to install all these files from another desktop environment seems like a big waste of space.

So bullet argued that when you look at the size of the base program its very small... adding in all the extras it makes it right around = in size to the same software running in windows where all those files also have to be included. Or to other same type programs where libraries of the same sort are required. However those libraries can also be used by many other pieces of software without having to install them multiple times. As part of the conversation I tried to elaborate on the idea that those files where part of another desktop environment which isn't really the case... they are the library framework that another large DE (KDE) and other smaller DEs (such as LXQt) are built on.

It was all part of the same conversation, the whole conversation about the topic began because of a perception that the dependencies where heavier then it seemed need be.... so relax. :)
 
I am the OP and as long as I am posting according to the rules, I am not particularly concerned about your opinion of my posting. He made some very valid points but, you continued to harp on one point that no one else card about. Move on from it or just make your own thread about that point and see what happens.

I'm posting according to the rules ManOfGod.

The topic is "Windows just works and other OS improvements", if that's not the context you intended than perhaps concentrate more on your grammar skills as opposed to being a trolling smartarse all the time.
 
I'm posting according to the rules ManOfGod.

The topic is "Windows just works and other OS improvements", if that's not the context you intended than perhaps concentrate more on your grammar skills as opposed to being a trolling smartarse all the time.

Well then I should be able to talk about how I built an entirely encrypted new Arch Linux system today at work (Dell E7470) with Budgie and had it completely running in under an hour. Built another Windows 10 system (another Dell E7470) just after that. Still wasn't done after about 4 hours. Then I came home. I still haven't added the system to the domain or updated Office 2016 or encrypted it yet.

Yeah Windows just works. It just works slower. :p
 
Well then I should be able to talk about how I built an entirely encrypted new Arch Linux system today at work (Dell E7470) with Budgie and had it completely running in under an hour. Built another Windows 10 system (another Dell E7470) just after that. Still wasn't done after about 4 hours. Then I came home. I still haven't added the system to the domain or updated Office 2016 or encrypted it yet.

Yeah Windows just works. It just works slower. :p

I can relate to this experience! :D
 
Yeah Windows just works. It just works slower. :p
That's odd. We deploy Windows 10 here from a Windows Deployment Server in a VM cluster, which even Microsoft says "WDS on a VM will deffo slow it down" and I can still have a clean installed Win10 in 20 minutes.

Maybe you have a media problem.
 
That's odd. We deploy Windows 10 here from a Windows Deployment Server in a VM cluster, which even Microsoft says "WDS on a VM will deffo slow it down" and I can still have a clean installed Win10 in 20 minutes.

Maybe you have a media problem.

I don't have the luxury of a WDS where I'm at. This is simply a Windows Update problem. The way Windows updates itself is incredibly slow and archaic.
 
I don't have the luxury of a WDS where I'm at. This is simply a Windows Update problem. The way Windows updates itself is incredibly slow and archaic.

That still doesn't make sense. Not sure what branch you started from but you should be able to start with that branch and one cumulative update. On an decent SSD system with just Windows there's no way that takes more than an hour, not counting encryption. Without knowing exactly what you're doing there's no way to say but four hours, there's probably a lot faster way.
 
That still doesn't make sense. Not sure what branch you started from but you should be able to start with that branch and one cumulative update. On an decent SSD system with just Windows there's no way that takes more than an hour, not counting encryption. Without knowing exactly what you're doing there's no way to say but four hours, there's probably a lot faster way.

Then talk to Windows Update. When the bullshit updater sits there at 95% for 30 minutes that's not my problem. It's theirs. Period.
 
Then talk to Windows Update. When the bullshit updater sits there at 95% for 30 minutes that's not my problem. It's theirs. Period.

Cool, I simply have no idea what's going on with that kind of hardware and I have no idea what build you're trying to install on those devices. Clearly something is wrong if it's 4 hours, I've never seen Windows Update hang like that on a production 10 build ever.
 
Then talk to Windows Update. When the bullshit updater sits there at 95% for 30 minutes that's not my problem. It's theirs. Period.
I've never seen it do that with Windows 10. Then again, I typically have the latest MS-released ISO, so in the current case I have a 1703 CU ISO, and it has what, two months of updates to apply? It takes a few minutes.

If you're insisting on staying at a lower rev, then the update process will be longer since the cumulatives are larger. Updating a clean Windows 7 SP1 for example, takes a very long time. But that's seven years of updates + a broken update mechanism.
 
From freshly partitioned hard drive to full install complete with all software applications installed and configured to the users requirements, there's no doubt that a packaged Linux distro takes the crown here, even better if you use a separate /home directory and include it in the install.

When an OS already comes with most of the software applications you need: Like email clients, office suites and a browser that isn't used to simply install Chrome or Firefox, this is a fact that simply can't be argued.

Transfer /opt and /usr and you're on the path to a backup solution that's far more efficient than any solution currently available under Windows with the ability to restore a system to a fully running state in around 45 mins. There's definite advantages to using an OS that relies on a collection folders and text based scripts as opposed to a registry.
 
Well then I should be able to talk about how I built an entirely encrypted new Arch Linux system today at work (Dell E7470) with Budgie and had it completely running in under an hour. Built another Windows 10 system (another Dell E7470) just after that. Still wasn't done after about 4 hours. Then I came home. I still haven't added the system to the domain or updated Office 2016 or encrypted it yet.

Yeah Windows just works. It just works slower. :p

That is what happens when you install onto a slow hard drive off of a DVD. My guess is you did not install the latest creators update first either.

The last tim I redid my second machine, I was ready to use it in under an hour, updates, connected to the domain, data restored, and most used programs installed.
 
Last edited:
From freshly partitioned hard drive to full install complete with all software applications installed and configured to the users requirements, there's no doubt that a packaged Linux distro takes the crown here, even better if you use a separate /home directory and include it in the install.

You can't say something like ALL software applications installed in comparing setup times between Windows and Linux. I know that I'm a niche user but setting up something like my sig rig from scratch is a multi-day process full of software that doesn't exist under Linux. I'm far from a typical Windows or Linux user and I get that, but just my software base is close to 3 terabytes with zero data.

The only fair way to compare it is on similar systems with the OS and at least a similar set of applications if not the same. My guess if that Linux might be a bit faster but then who knows how the driver situation will work out, or this or that or the other. In any case, that Windows takes over 4 times longer, I call bullshit on that one unless there is a specific problem identified besides Windows update being broken. I've setup enough Windows machines, at least in the US with good internet connections to simply not believe that's typical.
 
I don't have the luxury of a WDS where I'm at. This is simply a Windows Update problem. The way Windows updates itself is incredibly slow and archaic.

Nope, updates go pretty darn quick overall. Like I said, using a slow hard drive to install to is going to be slow.
 
You can't say something like ALL software applications installed in comparing setup times between Windows and Linux. I know that I'm a niche user but setting up something like my sig rig from scratch is a multi-day process full of software that doesn't exist under Linux. I'm far from a typical Windows or Linux user and I get that, but just my software base is close to 3 terabytes with zero data.

The only fair way to compare it is on similar systems with the OS and at least a similar set of applications if not the same. My guess if that Linux might be a bit faster but then who knows how the driver situation will work out, or this or that or the other. In any case, that Windows takes over 4 times longer, I call bullshit on that one unless there is a specific problem identified besides Windows update being broken. I've setup enough Windows machines, at least in the US with good internet connections to simply not believe that's typical.

I can assure you, it takes me at least 4x longer to get my Windows PC to a running state with all my software applications and settings correctly configured than it does to perform the same process under my Linux rig, and that's transferring the Steam folder. I haven't re downloaded my Steam library in around 10 years.

Choose to believe me or not, I really don't care, just stating the facts as I experience them.
 
Nope, updates go pretty darn quick overall. Like I said, using a slow hard drive to install to is going to be slow.

And most average users have a slow HDD and low end hardware.

There comes a time when you have to call a spade a spade, it's no good defending something when you know it's crap - And the Windows update process is crap. I believe even Heatlesssun can vouch for that.
 
Nope, updates go pretty darn quick overall. Like I said, using a slow hard drive to install to is going to be slow.

You didn't even bother looking up the Dell Latitude E7470 did you? No, you didn't. I can tell because if you had you wouldn't have written that bullshit.

Both machines are Core i5 (Sky lake I believe) with vPro, 16GB DDR4, and an M.2 256GB SSD. Installing off a Lexar 256GB USB 3.0 flash drive. Couldn't even use a DVD if I wanted to since it doesn't have one.

Want pictures? I'll happily send them in the morning.
 
And most average users have a slow HDD and low end hardware.

There comes a time when you have to call a spade a spade, it's no good defending something when you know it's crap - And the Windows update process is crap. I believe even Heatlesssun can vouch for that.

Then it is time to recommend an ssd upgrade, which is not a Windows issue but a personal issue. Most customers go ahead with the sad and are flooded when they see the difference.
 
You didn't even bother looking up the Dell Latitude E7470 did you? No, you didn't. I can tell because if you had you wouldn't have written that bullshit.

Both machines are Core i5 (Sky lake I believe) with vPro, 16GB DDR4, and an M.2 256GB SSD. Installing off a Lexar 256GB USB 3.0 flash drive. Couldn't even use a DVD if I wanted to since it doesn't have one.

Want pictures? I'll happily send them in the morning.

Then it is a personal problem that needs too be resolved. Your experience is unique and far from the norm.
 
Then it is time to recommend an ssd upgrade, which is not a Windows issue but a personal issue. Most customers go ahead with the sad and are flooded when they see the difference.

Well that's a bandaid on a sore knee approach.

My ageing Celeron based laptop with 500GB HDD and 4GB of ram running Ubuntu MATE updates in no time at all with no noticeable impact on boot times whatsoever.

No, the Windows updating process is garbage - Spade a spade, no bullshit kissing MS's arse.
 
I can assure you, it takes me at least 4x longer to get my Windows PC to a running state with all my software applications and settings correctly configured than it does to perform the same process under my Linux rig, and that's transferring the Steam folder. I haven't re downloaded my Steam library in around 10 years.

It's meaningless though for you to compare your Steam library with mine. It's easy enough to copy Steam files between drives and devices, I've done that plenty, but I have over 300 games in Steam and the overwhelming majority aren't supported natively under Linux.
 
Well that's a bandaid on a sore knee approach.

My ageing Celeron based laptop with 500GB HDD and 4GB of ram running Ubuntu MATE updates in no time at all with no noticeable impact on boot times whatsoever.

No, the Windows updating process is garbage - Spade a spade, no bullshit kissing MS's arse.

Nope, installing an ssd is not a bandaid on a sore knee at all, everything flies on an ssd. The fact that you do not appear to recommend the upgrade is not a Windows issue, that is for sure.
 
There comes a time when you have to call a spade a spade, it's no good defending something when you know it's crap - And the Windows update process is crap. I believe even Heatlesssun can vouch for that.

I can't because at least on the slowest of modern devices I've never seen anything close to 4 hours setting up Windows 10 with Office. The overwhelming majority of my time would be in setting up applications which overwhelming don't run under Linux.
 
Then it is a personal problem that needs too be resolved. Your experience is unique and far from the norm.

Anything that goes wrong with Windows, that's consider the norm. And I get that, like local x86 malware, that's simply not an issue that desktop Linux folks have to deal with. And those Linux folks don't have to deal with setting up most modern AAA games either and even on a system like my sig rig, setting up games is what takes time because of the size of the things.
 
You didn't even bother looking up the Dell Latitude E7470 did you? No, you didn't. I can tell because if you had you wouldn't have written that bullshit.

Both machines are Core i5 (Sky lake I believe) with vPro, 16GB DDR4, and an M.2 256GB SSD. Installing off a Lexar 256GB USB 3.0 flash drive. Couldn't even use a DVD if I wanted to since it doesn't have one.

Want pictures? I'll happily send them in the morning.

I did look it this device. It's far faster than my slowest Windows 10 devices and I've never seen anything close approaching 4 hours for a clean Windows 10 install. Even on eMMC based devices. The longest clean Windows 10 install I've seen on those kinds of devices is about 2 hours. With Windows updates.
 
I did look it this device. It's far faster than my slowest Windows 10 devices and I've never seen anything close approaching 4 hours for a clean Windows 10 install. Even on eMMC based devices. The longest clean Windows 10 install I've seen on those kinds of devices is about 2 hours. With Windows updates.

And that's fine for you. I know what I saw today. I was pissed as hell because I didn't want to deal with this laptop tomorrow morning. I was planning on giving it to the user first thing in the morning before I head to my son's Family Day at school. Now I'll have to finish building it and then encrypt it instead. Meaning it'll be after lunch by the time I can give it to the user.
 
I did look it this device. It's far faster than my slowest Windows 10 devices and I've never seen anything close approaching 4 hours for a clean Windows 10 install. Even on eMMC based devices. The longest clean Windows 10 install I've seen on those kinds of devices is about 2 hours. With Windows updates.

I'm not talking about just a straight Windows install, I'm talking about a PC configured to the point where it is perfectly usable according to my needs, files, applications, everything.

The biggest problem with Windows in this regard is the registry. When it comes to Linux I can have my PC configured back to perfection on a clean install, not a system image, with no more than the install disc (yes, disc!) and three folders, one folder is incorporated on installation. You don't understand this concept as you've never done it before.
 
Nope, installing an ssd is not a bandaid on a sore knee at all, everything flies on an ssd. The fact that you do not appear to recommend the upgrade is not a Windows issue, that is for sure.

Can you just not reply? Everything you post is bullshit.

Adding an SSD is a bandaid on a sore knee when another OS updates just fine with no inconvenience whatsoever using low end hardware and 5400 RPM spinners instead of SSD's. Adding an SSD to low end hardware including labour is a waste of time when the procedure is likely to cost more than the device is worth.
 
Last edited:
I'm not talking about just a straight Windows install, I'm talking about a PC configured to the point where it is perfectly usable according to my needs, files, applications, everything.

Meaningless. You have to define precisely what that working state is and the hardware. Setting up my sig rig from scratch to a working state for it's intended purpose I know very well is far more than a 4 hour process. Setting up my Surface Book with the OS and basic apps would take about an hour using the latest Windows build and cumulative updates. But even that is a much more complex setup that most use. A basic laptop with the latest Windows build using Windows update should come now ware close to four hours.

The biggest problem with Windows in this regard is the registry. When it comes to Linux I can have my PC configured back to perfection on a clean install, not a system image, with no more than the install disc (yes, disc!) and three folders, one folder is incorporated on installation. You don't understand this concept as you've never done it before.

Beyond vague. So you do a clean install and just magically everything is how you want it?
 
Beyond vague. So you do a clean install and just magically everything is how you want it?

Oh my gawd, read the post. Was 'just a clean install' all I mentioned or is there some extra snippets of information in there?

Meaningless. You have to define precisely what that working state is and the hardware. Setting up my sig rig from scratch to a working state for it's intended purpose I know very well is far more than a 4 hour process. Setting up my Surface Book with the OS and basic apps would take about an hour using the latest Windows build and cumulative updates. But even that is a much more complex setup that most use. A basic laptop with the latest Windows build using Windows update should come now ware close to four hours.

Lets see, what are some common things people use in relation to PC's:

- Preferred browser(s) and all bookmarks/passwords.
- Office suite of choice.
- Mail client of choice configured as necessary.
- All necessary software: Game clients, Games and supporting packages/dependencies, Media Players, Screen Capture Software, remote access software, Graphical software (ie: Gimp, Pinta), Emulation software, ISO software, burning software, compression software, streaming software (ie: Spotify), hardware diagnosis software, Virtual machine software as well as VM's themselves, Mobile phone software, monitoring software, image viewing software, Filezilla, file sharing software and configuration, ripping software, chat software, video editing software, backup software, recovery software, disk management software, Reddit client software, network diagnosis software, Google Earth, note taking software...the list goes on. Basically all the software any high end user would want/need.
- Themes, icons, fonts.
- Personalisation settings.
- Panel configuration.
- Dock software/configuration.
- Nvidia Control panel/X Server software.
- Multi monitor configuration.
- Audio configuration.

Both PC's running SSD's, both PC's running 16GB of ram, both PC's running i7/Xeon grade hardware with spinners used as storage.

Under Linux I can get all this up and running in around 45 to an hour, probably closer to 45. Under Windows this can take up to 4 hours, possibly longer depending on updates, download speed, etc.
 
Oh my gawd, read the post. Was 'just a clean install' all I mentioned or is there some extra snippets of information in there?



Lets see, what are some common things people use in relation to PC's:

- Preferred browser(s) and all bookmarks/passwords.
- Office suite of choice.
- Mail client of choice configured as necessary.
- All necessary software: Game clients, Games and supporting packages/dependencies, Media Players, Screen Capture Software, remote access software, Graphical software (ie: Gimp, Pinta), Emulation software, ISO software, burning software, compression software, streaming software (ie: Spotify), hardware diagnosis software, Virtual machine software as well as VM's themselves, Mobile phone software, monitoring software, image viewing software, Filezilla, file sharing software and configuration, ripping software, chat software, video editing software, backup software, recovery software, disk management software, Reddit client software, network diagnosis software, Google Earth, note taking software...the list goes on. Basically all the software any high end user would want/need.
- Themes, icons, fonts.
- Personalisation settings.
- Panel configuration.
- Dock software/configuration.
- Nvidia Control panel/X Server software.
- Multi monitor configuration.
- Audio configuration.

Both PC's running SSD's, both PC's running 16GB of ram, both PC's running i7/Xeon grade hardware with spinners used as storage.

Under Linux I can get all this up and running in around 45 to an hour, probably closer to 45. Under Windows this can take up to 4 hours, possibly longer depending on updates.
4 hours, 4 minutes, 4 days. MS doesn't care how long it will take. Until Linux can run everything Windows can, they can do what they want. If they want a crappy hybrid, malware infested OS, then that is what they will do.(ok, have done)
I love Windows 7, just everything after that is just bloatware for most users.
 
4 hours, 4 minutes, 4 days. MS doesn't care how long it will take. Until Linux can run everything Windows can, they can do what they want. If they want a crappy hybrid, malware infested OS, then that is what they will do.(ok, have done)
I love Windows 7, just everything after that is just bloatware for most users.

And yet, it still just works. :)
 
4 hours, 4 minutes, 4 days. MS doesn't care how long it will take. Until Linux can run everything Windows can, they can do what they want. If they want a crappy hybrid, malware infested OS, then that is what they will do.(ok, have done)
I love Windows 7, just everything after that is just bloatware for most users.

All based on personal use scenario's.

I use Linux, I game, I type, I read email, I diagnose, I manipulate images, I edit video, I record video - Basically I can do everything I need to do under Windows under Linux and I don't miss Windows at all.

But of course, if you're a professional that requires certain proprietary packages, stick to Windows. The requirements of the masses are very simplistic.
 
All necessary software: Game clients, Games and supporting packages/dependencies, Media Players, Screen Capture Software, remote access software, Graphical software (ie: Gimp, Pinta), Emulation software, ISO software, burning software, compression software, streaming software (ie: Spotify), hardware diagnosis software, Virtual machine software as well as VM's themselves, Mobile phone software, monitoring software, image viewing software, Filezilla, file sharing software and configuration, ripping software, chat software, video editing software, backup software, recovery software, disk management software, Reddit client software, network diagnosis software, Google Earth, note taking software...the list goes on. Basically all the software any high end user would want/need.
- Themes, icons, fonts.
- Personalisation settings.
- Panel configuration.
- Dock software/configuration.
- Nvidia Control panel/X Server software.
- Multi monitor configuration.
- Audio configuration.

Both PC's running SSD's, both PC's running 16GB of ram, both PC's running i7/Xeon grade hardware with spinners used as storage.

Under Linux I can get all this up and running in around 45 to an hour, probably closer to 45. Under Windows this can take up to 4 hours, possibly longer depending on updates, download speed, etc.

LOL! This is hilarious. You seem to have no idea how much disk space games use these days, especially in the number I have installed on my sig rig. All of the other stuff you mention is nothing compare to the size of games which consume about 2 TB on my sig rig and yeah, that takes time from scratch. Beyond that development tools take some time, that's about 120 GB with loaded Eclipse, VS and SQL Server setups.

Without a specific list you're not making meaningful a point.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top