Microsoft Working on New “Andromeda” Desktop Experience for Windows 10 Devices

[BulletDust]

Of for fuck's sake please don't start this back and forth BS once again, 20+ pages (and I have 40 posts per page) from that Windows 10 alternatives thread was really enough, don't you think?

Not in a thread on a different topic, no. Feel free to add me to a block list, I'd block you but you'd still see my annoying posts.

 

[Hagrid]

Of for fuck's sake please don't start this back and forth BS once again, 20+ pages (and I have 40 posts per page) from that Windows 10 alternatives thread was really enough, don't you think?

Here is a safety pin and some crayons. Find a safe place to recoup!

Different topic and it's never a bad thing to beat a dead horse, IMO.

 

[ManofGod]

That's right, folks. Microsoft doesn't think you need the control panel, it's just a mish mash of options that have been around a long time.

Based on that language I expect it won't be long before a major 10 update strips it out, just like group policies.

But, but, 1/3 me games. Yes folks, you heard it here first. Based upon your language, you do not game much anymore.

 

[ManofGod]

The idea of OS unification across devices just doesn't work. Microsoft want it to work from a marketing perspective, but there's unacceptable trade offs.

It either works great on mobile devices, but is bloated and confusing on desktop devices with two completely different UI's as well as a Control Panel and a Settings Panel. Or the UI works great on desktop devices but not so well on touch devices due to an interface that's just too difficult to navigate on a touch device due to everything being so tiny. Even Apple haven't gone as far as to integrate iOS and macOS together as it just doesn't work.

If you install Windows on a desktop, the installer should be able to detect a desktop and install a desktop operating system with none of the touch interface bloat and confusion. If you install Windows on a mobile device, the installer should be able to detect mobile device and install the OS with an interface more suited to touch application.

Stop trying to cram the whole lot together in one god awful mess - Basically, tell the marketing department to fuck off.

Windows Server 2012 [shudder].

Yet, this has nothing to do with everything you just said so, you know what to do.

 

[Exavior]

The idea of OS unification across devices just doesn't work. Microsoft want it to work from a marketing perspective, but there's unacceptable trade offs.

It either works great on mobile devices, but is bloated and confusing on desktop devices with two completely different UI's as well as a Control Panel and a Settings Panel. Or the UI works great on desktop devices but not so well on touch devices due to an interface that's just too difficult to navigate on a touch device due to everything being so tiny. Even Apple haven't gone as far as to integrate iOS and macOS together as it just doesn't work.

If you install Windows on a desktop, the installer should be able to detect a desktop and install a desktop operating system with none of the touch interface bloat and confusion. If you install Windows on a mobile device, the installer should be able to detect mobile device and install the OS with an interface more suited to touch application.

Stop trying to cram the whole lot together in one god awful mess - Basically, tell the marketing department to fuck off.

Windows Server 2012 [shudder].

You use a keyboard and mouse with Continuum so try again.

This is what they are adding. To note the difference, right now if I use this feature my programs launch full screen so I can't have say Edge and Excel side by side or have two excel screens side by side. I also can't pin anything to the task bar. So I have a broken version of windows 10 when using my phone as a laptop replacement on the big screen with keyboard and mouse support.

 

[heatlesssun]

The control panel suits a desktop machine, the settings panel suits a touch machine. You could hack half the crap out of Windows 10 and the OS would still run fine.

That's my opinion, is that ok?

In some cases, and those cases are growing in number, a device used as a desktop that's connected to a large screen with a keyboard and pointing device and touch machine are one in the same. For better or for worse, and I know some think it for worse, Windows runs a lot of different kinds of hardware now. Sure, you could cut out "half of the crap" if Windows were still a desktop only OS. But it's not. And that's one area were there is some growth in Windows, 2 in 1s and larger screen touch and even ink capable devices.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

In some cases, and those cases are growing in number, a device used as a desktop that's connected to a large screen with a keyboard and pointing device and touch machine are one in the same. For better or for worse, and I know some think it for worse, Windows runs a lot of different kinds of hardware now. Sure, you could cut out "half of the crap" if Windows were still a desktop only OS. But it's not. And that's one area were there is some growth in Windows, 2 in 1s and larger screen touch and even ink capable devices.

The issue isn't whether or not touch support is mostly a gimmick. The issue is that the Windows UI is a mess nobody wants to use. It's seems clear that they want to kill the desktop as we know it in favor of some kind of locked-down phablet OS.

 

[ManofGod]

The issue isn't whether or not touch support is mostly a gimmick. The issue is that the Windows UI is a mess nobody wants to use. It's seems clear that they want to kill the desktop as we know it in favor of some kind of locked-down phablet OS.

Hey, lifetoabove, you are wrong and yes, that is a fact. However, good luck with that incorrect line of unreasoning. It truly is folks such as yourself that will drive people away from Linux instead of towards it like you would prefer, on the desktop that is.

 

[heatlesssun]

The issue isn't whether or not touch support is mostly a gimmick. The issue is that the Windows UI is a mess nobody wants to use. It's seems clear that they want to kill the desktop as we know it in favor of some kind of locked-down phablet OS.

Windows users looking for a clean and elegant UI I don't think ever got that with Windows, the Windows UI has long been ridiculed though the hybrid UI stuff from 8 and into 10 has probably where it's received the most criticism. But it's also helped to make Windows usable on devices were it was much more problematic like touch tablets.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Windows users looking for a clean and elegant UI I don't think ever got that with Windows, the Windows UI has long been ridiculed though the hybrid UI stuff from 8 and into 10 has probably where it's received the most criticism. But it's also helped to make Windows usable on devices were it was much more problematic like touch tablets.

I have yet to meet anyone IRL who has actually been able to use the Windows 8/10 UI for real work without a start menu replacement.

Windows was perfectly usable on touch devices before the metro nonsense, my first tablet was a 10" MSI WindPad that shipped with Windows 7. Old Windows tablets sucked because they used resistive touchscreens, not because there's anything fundamentally wrong with the Windows UI. Just pin your frequently used apps to the taskbar or the top of the start menu and you're good to go. I actually found I had no trouble closing/minimizing/controlling windows and a bit of DPI scaling makes everything touch friendly.

If the long term goal was really compatibility they wouldn't be slowly walling off the desktop and removing features.

 

[heatlesssun]

I have yet to meet anyone IRL who has actually been able to use the Windows 8/10 UI for real work without a start menu replacement.

Millions of people are using 10 now just fine for real work with the out of box UI. Real work, done in applications, works pretty much like Windows 7. And 10 does work better with multiple and high DPI monitors than 7 out of the box.

Windows was perfectly usable on touch devices before the metro nonsense, my first tablet was a 10" MSI WindPad that shipped with Windows 7.

I've had a number of Windows 7 touch devices with capacitive screens. To say that what Windows 7 was perfectly usable on tablets is more than a stretch. The majority of desktop apps simply don't work well with touch, though that has improved a bit with a growing number of touch capable Windows devices. As much as the Windows Store sucks, just the addition of basic things like a touch aware Netflix app, MUCH better than using the web site. Not having to click tiny buttons to close apps, a thumb keyboard. There's just a lot list of things that are simply much, much better for touch under 10.

 

[ManofGod]

Why the personal attack and the hate? This does not make the forum a very welcoming place. As far as I can tell, you're the first one to bring up the dreaded L- word in this thread.

Hey, what is with the thread derailment there, trying to get it locked? There was no personal attack and you are quite aware of that. On the other hand, the constant FUD on Microsoft and Windows by the same people all the time gets quite tiresome after a while. There are a handful of people here who can actually think and comment on the subjects at hand without using FUD and misinformation and for those folks, I very much enjoy reading what they have to say, even if I may or may not agree with it.

 

[BulletDust]

Hey, what is with the thread derailment there, trying to get it locked?

I do believe that MisprintedLies was posting on topic, I believe your unprovoked personal attack was where things started to go off topic. There's no rule that I can find in the [H] forum rules stating that one must only discuss Windows in a positive manner in order to avoid personal attacks.

For what it's worth, as someone with a number of Windows 10 machines here, I agree with MisprintedLies 100%, the UI is a mess.

 

[heatlesssun]

For what it's worth, as someone with a number of Windows 10 machines here, I agree with MisprintedLies 100%, the UI is a mess.

Ok, the Windows 10 UI is a mess. But at Start Menu replacement doesn't really change the use of applications between 7 and 10. I can launch them just as easily and quickly and most Win32 apps work the same.

 

[BulletDust]

Ok, the Windows 10 UI is a mess. But at Start Menu replacement doesn't really change the use of applications between 7 and 10. I can launch them just as easily and quickly and most Win32 apps work the same.

I can't comment on start menu replacements as I haven't used one since Windows 8.1. Back then I used Start8, which worked a treat, but I suspect it was causing the desktop compositor to inexplicably crash at times so I switched back to Windows 7.

 

[BulletDust]

Yet, this has nothing to do with everything you just said so, you know what to do.

What the hell are you waffling on about?

 

[heatlesssun]

I can't comment on start menu replacements as I haven't used one since Windows 8.1. Back then I used Start8, which worked a treat, but I suspect it was causing the desktop compositor to inexplicably crash at times so I switched back to Windows 7.

Fair enough. It's just over the top I think that a Start Menu replacement would be necessary to run the same programs that work the same way.

 

[Exavior]

I have yet to meet anyone IRL who has actually been able to use the Windows 8/10 UI for real work without a start menu replacement.

Windows was perfectly usable on touch devices before the metro nonsense, my first tablet was a 10" MSI WindPad that shipped with Windows 7. Old Windows tablets sucked because they used resistive touchscreens, not because there's anything fundamentally wrong with the Windows UI. Just pin your frequently used apps to the taskbar or the top of the start menu and you're good to go. I actually found I had no trouble closing/minimizing/controlling windows and a bit of DPI scaling makes everything touch friendly.

If the long term goal was really compatibility they wouldn't be slowly walling off the desktop and removing features.

this bullshit again. I once again call bullshit that you or anyone else on here does not know a single person that is able to launch a single program in windows 8 or above.

 

[BulletDust]

this bullshit again. I once again call bullshit that you or anyone else on here does not know a single person that is able to launch a single program in windows 8 or above.

As a tech I work with a number of average users that know very little about computing. Based on my observations the average user was completely bamboozled with the Windows 8 interface, those tiles would fill the screen and they'd have no idea what they'd done or how to get back to the desktop - The Windows 8 desktop was, and still is, a marketing disaster.

With the advent of Windows 10 this issue has been rectified somewhat, but the inclusion of a touch interface still confuses the average desktop user at times. I've got little against Windows 10, but the touch interface isn't necessary on desktop PC's and needs to go. Even Apple know better than to push a unified desktop/touch platform onto their users.

 

[heatlesssun]

With the advent of Windows 10 this issue has been rectified somewhat, but the inclusion of a touch interface still confuses the average desktop user at times. I've got little against Windows 10, but the touch interface isn't necessary on desktop PC's and needs to go. Even Apple know better than to push a unified desktop/touch platform onto their users.

The subject of the hybrid UI approach is obviously not liked by some and that'll be debated forever. But DeathFromBelow made an extremely broad claim, that he knew no one that could use Windows 8/10 for "real work" without a Start Menu replacement. But just focusing on Windows 10, that's just nonsense. How is launching and using AutoCAD or Word or LibreOffice Calc or anything that different between 7 and 10? Furthermore you have better multiple monitor support with independent task bars, better window management and better high resolution monitor support.

Just what is a person who is using a Start Menu replacement getting in from it that makes real work possible in 10 whereas that wouldn't be possible with the default Start Menu?

 

[BulletDust]

The subject of the hybrid UI approach is obviously not liked by some and that'll be debated forever. But DeathFromBelow made an extremely broad claim, that he knew no one that could use Windows 8/10 for "real work" without a Start Menu replacement. But just focusing on Windows 10, that's just nonsense. How is launching and using AutoCAD or Word or LibreOffice Calc or anything that different between 7 and 10? Furthermore you have better multiple monitor support with independent task bars, better window management and better high resolution monitor support.

Just what is a person who is using a Start Menu replacement getting in from it that makes real work possible in 10 whereas that wouldn't be possible with the default Start Menu?

I gave you an example of the type of individual that's completely confused by the Start Menu and 'Charms Menu's' of Windows 8/8.1. With the advent of Windows 10 they rectified this somewhat, but the average user still gets caught out at times by the fragmented UI. For example no one knows you can right click on the Start Button to access frequently needed settings and the number of people that inadvertently switch to 'Tablet Mode' only to met by what appears to be a broken Start Menu is surprisingly high.

I never liked doing it, but for some people start menu replacements were the only option under 8/8.1, I don't use Start Menu replacements on Windows 10 however as even under Windows 8 I found there was issues at times that I'm sure were a result of the Start Menu replacement, people can adapt to Windows 10's Start Menu.

 

[heatlesssun]

For example no one knows you can right click on the Start Button to access frequently needed settings and the number of people that inadvertently switch to 'Tablet Mode' only to met by what appears to be a broken Start Menu is surprisingly high.

Tablet mode is only enabled on devices with touch screens. Furthermore even on touch screen devices it is automatically disabled when those devices are connected to external non-touch monitors. If I dock my Surface Book while it's in tablet mode for example, once connected to a external monitor, it automatically turns off tablet mode and disables tablet mode until it's no longer connected to an external monitor. There's no way to inadvertently switch to tablet mode on a device that has no touch hardware and even then tablet mode is restricted under the circumstances I've described.

 

[Exavior]

As a tech I work with a number of average users that know very little about computing. Based on my observations the average user was completely bamboozled with the Windows 8 interface, those tiles would fill the screen and they'd have no idea what they'd done or how to get back to the desktop - The Windows 8 desktop was, and still is, a marketing disaster.

With the advent of Windows 10 this issue has been rectified somewhat, but the inclusion of a touch interface still confuses the average desktop user at times. I've got little against Windows 10, but the touch interface isn't necessary on desktop PC's and needs to go. Even Apple know better than to push a unified desktop/touch platform onto their users.

But you still are not proving the original statement. The statement that you or anyone else would not know a single person that is able to use Windows 8 or windows 10 to launch a single program without a start menu replacement. That without another party installing said start menu program they started their computer, couldn't even launch their first program and had to have somebody come take the computer, install a start menu replacement and then give it back because they couldn't do a single thing form it. Forget knowing how to right click on the start menu, they don't even know how to bring up the start menu in windows 10. They don't know how to launch edge in windows 10. They don't know how to install a program and then run the program in windows 10. Do you see where I am getting at about it being bullshit that you wouldn't know a single person (yourself included) that knows how to run a single program in windows 10. If you didn't know a single person (yourself included) then how exactly does the start menu replacement get installed as that would require somebody to know how to run an install program on windows 10 to install said program to start with.

The fact that you personally know that you can right click and do anything that you said there means that you personally know who to use windows 10. The person I replied to states that he personally can not launch a single program in windows 10 and doesn't know a single person that knows how to launch a program in windows 10 unless they are given a computer by somebody else that has had the start menu replaced.

 

[Dan_D]

I have yet to meet anyone IRL who has actually been able to use the Windows 8/10 UI for real work without a start menu replacement.

I do real work with Windows 7, 2008, 2008 R2, 2012, 2012 R2, and Windows 10 every day. I've never used start menu replacements with any version of Windows. I no longer use Windows 8.0/8.1 but that's because all my Windows 8.x machines were upgraded to Windows 10. Windows Server 2012 has the same bullshit interface as Windows 8.0 and I have to use that piece of crap every day. Windows 8.1/2012 R2 added the right click context to the pseudo start menu which was better. With some adjustments its not that far off from Windows 10. Sadly, using it is somewhat similar to using Windows 3.11 in that we didn't have a start menu back then. It's still usable with some thought behind your actions. It isn't intuitive but your blanket statement is wrong.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

I do real work with Windows 7, 2008, 2008 R2, 2012, 2012 R2, and Windows 10 every day. I've never used start menu replacements with any version of Windows. I no longer use Windows 8.0/8.1 but that's because all my Windows 8.x machines were upgraded to Windows 10. Windows Server 2012 has the same bullshit interface as Windows 8.0 and I have to use that piece of crap every day. Windows 8.1/2012 R2 added the right click context to the pseudo start menu which was better. With some adjustments its not that far off from Windows 10. Sadly, using it is somewhat similar to using Windows 3.11 in that we didn't have a start menu back then. It's still usable with some thought behind your actions. It isn't intuitive but your blanket statement is wrong.

I meant it literally. I have yet to meet a single person IRL who found Windows 8/10 usable without a start menu replacement. I'm not the only one around here who has had the same experience.

 

[heatlesssun]

I meant it literally. I have yet to meet a single person IRL who found Windows 8/10 usable without a start menu replacement. I'm not the only one around here who has had the same experience.

Windows 10 without a Start Menu replacement is perfectly usable for the same kinds of software that people have used with Windows 7. All of that software works like it always has.

 

[DPI]

Windows 10 without a Start Menu replacement is perfectly usable for the same kinds of software that people have used with Windows 7. All of that software works like it always has.

Perfectly usable... for you. But then you also said that about 8's start screen, that was "here to stay so just deal with it". However millions of downloads on start menu replacements demonstrates a fairly significant rejection of the tile-laden, sluggish, XAML based franken-startmenu in 10 that replaced the snappy, Win32 predecessor in 7.

The root issue is people don't want to look at fugly metro tiles on their start menu or anywhere. Defaults matter, and the fact the tiles - and advertisements - are defaulted on means many people run to start menu replacements rather than deal with them. Some people don't realize the tiles can be disabled. Some people thought they disabled the tiles only for them to come back after an update. A start menu replacement eliminates the cat and mouse game.

In any case, what's it to you? Why so concerned with other people not using windows exactly like you do? Or people choosing to modify windows to work better for them? Stop sweating your F5 key so hard and start living a life while you have time.

 

[heatlesssun]

Perfectly usable... for you. But then you also said that about 8's start screen, that was "here to stay so just deal with it".

That's not at all what I said. I was openly and constantly critical of the always full screen elements in Windows 8.x. I said from Day one "resizeable Start Screen, modern apps windowed on the desktop". That much was obvious and necessary.

The root issue is people don't want to look at fugly metro tiles on their start menu or anywhere. Defaults matter, and the fact the tiles - and advertisements - are defaulted on means many people run to start menu replacements rather than deal with them. Some people don't realize the tiles can be disabled. Some people thought they disabled the tiles only for them to come back after an update. A start menu replacement eliminates the cat and mouse game.

Tiles are just a more flexible icons that can be arranged arbitrarily in two dimensions. That's actually a decent advancement on the classic Start Menu. The single biggest problem has been no way to create folders. That actually was done a long time ago on Windows Phone 8.1, which is extremely odd because that had lot more usability on desktops I thought, that's coming with the Creators Update. Though only one level deep, tile folders allow for an ENORMOUS amount of shortcuts to be organized in a tight space. There are two more things that would pretty much solve 90% of the complaints I hear of 10's Start Menu. Nest tile folders and tile types that look like classic Start Menu items. I actually listen to complaints and do acknowledge that many are perfectly reasonable.

In any case, what's it to you? Why so concerned with other people not using windows exactly like you do? Or people choosing to modify windows to work better for them? Stop sweating your F5 key so hard and start living a life while you have time.

And that's just it, there's some many people using Windows for some many things on so many devices that at this point there's no way for Microsoft to make everyone 100% happy. They should address the big issues. The update and telemetry situations need to be addressed better and it looks like they are moving in that direction. It's not as much as it should be especially for Home users. LOL! F5. I'm one of those Windows 10 users with VR. That thing that's a fad. So in the grand scheme of things, you could tell a lot of people to stop hitting F5.